Oracle's Plans for Java Unveiled at JavaOne

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Oracle's Plans for Java Unveiled at JavaOne

Posted by samzenpus on Wednesday October 5, 2011 @10:22AM from the here's-the-plan dept.

msmoriarty writes "Oracle had lots of Java announcements at this year's JavaOne. So far the plans include: 'The availability of an early access version of JDK 7 for the Mac OS, plans to "bridge the gap" between Java ME and Java SE, an approach to modularizing Java SE 8 that will rely on the Jigsaw platform, a new project that aims to use HTML5 to bring Java to Apple's iOS platform, the availability of JavaFX 2.0, a pending proposal to open source that technology, gearing up Java EE for the cloud, and a delay in the release of Java 8.'"

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Juck Fava. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:24 · Score: 0

Actually I use it professionally, but still.
1. Re:Juck Fava. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:33 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Juck Fava.
  Don't you mean something more like
  ReproductiveSystem.getBodyPart(BodyPartFactory.getBodyPartInstance(new BodyPart(BodyPart.GENITALS(BodyTypes.MALE)))...
2. Re:Juck Fava. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:52 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  What the hell?
  
  Any self respecting Java developer knows you have to have a GenitalsFactory class that can creates both MaleGenitals and FemaleGenitals (and may in future be extended to create HermaphroditeGenitals, which will be a totally different class because multiple-inheritance if Wrong and Bad)
3. Re:Juck Fava. by halivar · 2011-10-05 11:17 · Score: 1
  
  Now I know why I hate variant types. Typeless languages are a sea of androgyny. Like Europe. /duck /run /hide
4. Re:Juck Fava. by idontusenumbers · 2011-10-05 11:50 · Score: 1
  
  This crap is an architecture decision and not Java specific.
5. Re:Juck Fava. by Lokitoth · 2011-10-05 13:04 · Score: 2
  
  If you do not understand how to make clean, efficient code in Language X, you should consider learning Language X.
6. Re:Juck Fava. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 17:45 · Score: 0
  
  You forgot all the connector XML you have to write to go along with that boilerplate code, too.
7. Re:Juck Fava. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 21:50 · Score: 0
  
  Oh, you think so?
8. Re:Juck Fava. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 23:06 · Score: 0
  
  That post doesn't make any sense. You can still do procedural programming in Java---just make all your functions static. You can still use globals in Java---just stuff them all as static variables into one class. The hoops it forces you to jump through are not particularly big and if you really want to you can use Java like C or C++ in terms of the approach to objects and functions.
And they said Java was dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:26 · Score: 1

Java is clearly not a "dead platform" like some fools claimed it to be. It was quiet for a little while, but it's roaring back to life now that it has some good funding behind it again.
If you want to talk about dead platforms, look no further than Perl. It has stagnated the worst of all of the once-popular programming languages.
1. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:31 · Score: 0
  
  SPACE NUTTERS!
2. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:54 · Score: 1
  
  I guess you didn't get the memo. There was a change in terminology: Any language that is popular and widely in-use in the industry is now called a 'dead language'. Therefore C, C++, C#, Java, VB, Python, Fortran, COBOL, etc... are all 'dead', as in they are widely used. Also Objective-C is now well on its way to being 'dead'.
3. Re:And they said Java was dead! by zoloto · 2011-10-05 10:59 · Score: 1
  
  the only reason I have it installed is because of Minecraft.
4. Re:And they said Java was dead! by MightyMartian · 2011-10-05 11:11 · Score: 1
  
  It may be quiet on the consumer front, but in the enterprise world, Java remains one of the big things. Ignore the .NET and Python fanatics.
  
  --
  The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
5. Re:And they said Java was dead! by wiedzmin · 2011-10-05 11:19 · Score: 1
  
  In other news, Mozilla is considering dropping support for Java in Firefox, to fix SSL/TLS vulnerabilities... so yeah, I'd say it's close.
  
  --
  Bow before me, for I am root.
6. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 11:32 · Score: 1
  
  There haven't been any major conferences on Leibnitz's calculus notation or western music notation lately. Calculus and music must be dead. Oh wait, I had the radio on earlier... hmmm... maybe it is dead.
7. Re:And they said Java was dead! by lolcutusofbong · 2011-10-05 11:53 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  If you want to talk about dead platforms, look no further than Perl.
  
  I love the fact that you're posting this on Slashdot.
8. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Hylandr · 2011-10-05 12:41 · Score: 1
  
  Ditto.
  At work we are migrating clients away from a java based platform as fast as we can. The Oracle/Sun marketing front can infest all the blogs and news sites with it's marketing drivel till the cows come home, only senseless newbs out of college will sacrifice what may have been a budding career to it.
  Yes, you can call me bitter now.
  - Dan.
  
  --
  ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
9. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Hylandr · 2011-10-05 12:42 · Score: 1
  
  No, It's not. If it's in use still, it's because of vendor lock-in.
  - Dan.
  
  --
  ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
10. Re:And they said Java was dead! by SplashMyBandit · 2011-10-05 14:36 · Score: 1
  
  > Yes, you can call me bitter now.
  Lol. I call you a desktop weenie. The Enterprise space is totally pwned by Java. Just cause you don't have it in your start menu doesn't mean that Java (and C) doesn't run all the heavy lifting you can't see behind the Web.
11. Re:And they said Java was dead! by afabbro · 2011-10-05 15:05 · Score: 1
  
  No, It's not. If it's in use still, it's because of vendor lock-in.
  I'm not sure what universe you're in, but Java and COBOL are the dominant languages in big business.
  Yes, the typical dot-com startup uses ruby or whatever, but the Fortune 500 writes a ton of Java code each year.
  
  --
  Advice: on VPS providers
12. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Hylandr · 2011-10-05 15:22 · Score: 0
  
  > Yes, you can call me bitter now.
  Lol. I call you a desktop weenie. The Enterprise space is totally pwned by Java. Just cause you don't have it in your start menu doesn't mean that Java (and C) doesn't run all the heavy lifting you can't see behind the Web.
  Pwned ? get off your Dad's computer, and come back when your balls drop.
  The only thing Java dominates is CPU load.
  - Dan.
  
  --
  ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
13. Re:And they said Java was dead! by TrueSpeed · 2011-10-05 15:26 · Score: 2
  
  Looks like you got the wrong memo. Any language that is not used by a hipster is dead.
14. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Hylandr · 2011-10-05 15:32 · Score: 1
  
  Citations please.
  
  --
  ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
15. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 15:33 · Score: 0
  
  Go apply an update you IT monkey. You're the type of dip-shit that programmers looks down to. Now, get me an Ethernet cable, bitch.
16. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Nadaka · 2011-10-05 15:55 · Score: 2
  
  And the Department of Defense. Java is vetted for TS and higher clearance systems. Most other languages and platforms are not.
17. Re:And they said Java was dead! by rednip · 2011-10-05 16:16 · Score: 1
  
  The only thing Java dominates is CPU load.
  Yes, on our production servers java does dominate the CPU load. Does so pretty much overwhelmingly, however it's the designed capacity. If you want to be a fan boy or comic book guy type, who cries about 'the best' or 'the worst' of known arguments every time a subject comes up, you can't be stopped. However, it should be acknowledged that all you're really adding are obviously well practiced taunts. Are you trying to dumb down Slashdot on purpose? Or is it just your nature?
  
  --
  The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
18. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 17:08 · Score: 0
  
  There is nothing I hate mote then an IT cunt who spends his life administering to the needs of "his" users. You preach like you know what you're talking about, yet your day involves servicing idiots whose cables are loose and telling people to reboot their computer. If you had any intelligence whatsoever you would have gotten a computer science degree and become a developer. So, just shut the fuck up, dweeb and get back to the help desk.
19. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Eskarel · 2011-10-05 17:15 · Score: 1
  
  Java was never dead, it was merely on life support. The time gap between Java 6 and Java 7 was in the vicinity of 4 years which is an eternity in programming and gave Microsoft the opportunity to gain a substantial lead on Java. Sun went out of business and nothing whatever could get past the JCP for approval. What with Sun going titsup and Oracle creating plenty of bad blood in the community it was a coin flip if any new version of the Java standard would ever be approved at all. A few months ago, Oracle proved it could get something past the JCP(even if Java 7 is incredibly underwhelming), and in doing so proved that Java wasn't going to die in the short term. That's certain now, but it was by no means certain a few months ago.
20. Re:And they said Java was dead! by SplashMyBandit · 2011-10-05 17:30 · Score: 0
  
  Is that the best you can do? Clearly you have no decent comeback argument as you're not a developer (I am, and have been for several decades) - and probably all you do is change mouses in your organization. Lame, very lame.
21. Re:And they said Java was dead! by afabbro · 2011-10-05 17:36 · Score: 1
  
  Citations please.
  Sure, as soon as the previous poster provides some for his claim that Java is not big in the enterprise world.
  
  --
  Advice: on VPS providers
22. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Hylandr · 2011-10-05 17:39 · Score: 1
  
  I wouldn't call that a good design. But maybe I am just too old school. back in the day we used to design for the lightest CPU load possible, not the heaviest.
  As for reducing the collective intelligence of slashdot, most of the newcomers have done a good enough job of that on their own.
  No wonder Cmd Taco quit.
  - Dan.
  * Taking his marbles, and playing somewhere sane.
  
  --
  ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
23. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Hylandr · 2011-10-05 18:22 · Score: 0
  
  I have been programming since I was 15. Most likely before you were a stain in your mothers bedsheets when she was 11.
  Better?
  - Dan.
  
  --
  ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
24. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Hylandr · 2011-10-05 18:26 · Score: 1
  
  You made the first affirmation, burden of proof to educate is yours.
  
  --
  ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
25. Re:And they said Java was dead! by SomePgmr · 2011-10-05 18:33 · Score: 1
  
  * Taking his marbles, and playing somewhere sane.
  When you figure out where that is, please let me know.
26. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Daniel+Phillips · 2011-10-05 20:16 · Score: 1
  
  Compared to C++ or C, Java is slow. How slow depends on the workload. Anywhere from a few percent to a large multiple, the latter being fairly easy to trigger by hitting the JIT just the way it doesn't like.
  If you care about performance or latency, Java is the wrong language. But it's faster than Python.
  
  --
  Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
27. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Chrisq · 2011-10-05 21:34 · Score: 1
  
  Citations please.
  here and here
28. Re:And they said Java was dead! by SplashMyBandit · 2011-10-05 21:38 · Score: 1
  
  Are you a professional programmer? I think not. Just because you did some Basic when you were a kid doesn't mean you have a clue now - too bad you are such a dickhead you don't even realise how easy it is to see for a professional practicioner that you are quite behind the current state of play and the realities of the marketplace. Not only do you have no clue but with statements like "Most likely before you were a stain in your mothers bedsheets when she was 11." it also shows you have a very immature outlook, and can't frame a sensible debate on merits. It's a shame, as this will hinder you greatly in life.
29. Re:And they said Java was dead! by dkf · 2011-10-05 22:02 · Score: 1
  
  You made the first affirmation, burden of proof to educate is yours.
  I see a lot of server-side Java use round here. I see a lot in the companies I work with, which are of various sizes. I see a little Ruby, but not really very much. I don't see any Python at all. (Not to say it's not there, but I don't see it.) I also see a fair amount of C#, but only really in the Microsoft-based shops. YMMV.
  Java's big in business. It's mainly big in business because it's already big in business. Yes, that's circular, but what I mean is that there's a large install-base of Java code and not a lot of desire to rewrite it all. A key factor in that is the sheer number of high-quality libraries and development tools available; it's grown into a very rich ecosystem indeed. The identity of the company that owns the core platform isn't that big a deal, so long as they don't make any massive blunders (trying to charge large licensing fees would be such a blunder; having a bug in a particular release is nowhere near as critical). Like it or not, Java's very entrenched now.
  
  --
  "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
30. Re:And they said Java was dead! by LizardKing · 2011-10-05 23:15 · Score: 1
  
  I love the fact that you're posting this on Slashdot.
  If you take a look at the mess of spaghetti that is Slashcode, then you'll realise it's appropriate rather than ironic. Slashdot took years to actually have pages that approached anything like well formed or compliant to a DTD, and the current site glitches badly on mobile devices.
31. Re:And they said Java was dead! by DaVince21 · 2011-10-06 00:27 · Score: 1
  
  I wish I had mod points for you.
  
  --
  I am not devoid of humor.
32. Re:And they said Java was dead! by csnydermvpsoft · 2011-10-06 01:16 · Score: 1
  
  In other news, Mozilla is considering dropping support for Java in Firefox, to fix SSL/TLS vulnerabilities... so yeah, I'd say it's close.
  Huh? Java in the browser has been dead for quite some time, as it should be (along with Flash, Quicktime, and all other plugins). You do realize that your Android phone, Blu-ray player, and a large percentage of servers you connect to are all running Java VMs, right?
33. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-06 02:41 · Score: 0
  
  Clearly slashdot no longer gives out enough modpoints, if this immature argument hasn't been modded down to oblivion.
34. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Toonol · 2011-10-06 02:43 · Score: 1
  
  That sort of immature vitriol usually is triggered by a deep insecurity.
35. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Toonol · 2011-10-06 02:57 · Score: 1
  
  I think that C# and the .net platform will continue to grow at Java's expense over the next five years or so. Programmers can do things in .net on their own desktop, personal projects and so on; when they move into industry, they will prefer to use a language they are familiar with.
  
  This isn't a preference for C# over Java; they are nearly identical in power, capabilities, and speed. But Java has become irrelevant on the desktop, and that may cause them to eventually lose the server..
36. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Toonol · 2011-10-06 02:58 · Score: 1
  
  Well, Android really isn't. It's running a similar VM for a compatible language.
37. Re:And they said Java was dead! by wiedzmin · 2011-10-06 04:49 · Score: 1
  
  I don't have an Android phone, I prefer my mobile devices relatively malware free, but you are correct my BlackBerry is running Java. However, if Java in the browser may be dying for the consumer market, it certainly is thriving for the enterprise sector - every vendor out there has taken their management interfaces "to the web", by basically converting their Java-based desktop apps into huge, slow, painful to use, applets. Not sure what point I'm trying to make with that last statement, but I'd say that Firefox dropping Java would be a big deal regardless.
  
  --
  Bow before me, for I am root.
38. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-06 06:00 · Score: 0
  
  ..and I was just getting the popcorn!
39. Re:And they said Java was dead! by FrozenFOXX · 2011-10-06 06:25 · Score: 1
  
  Citations please.
  here and here
  At my current employer who shall remain nameless for the time being we do an absolute metric shitload of image and video processing in Java for the US government. There's definitely some issues that continually need ironing out but you can usually get Java to do whatever it is you want if you don't mind spending enough time with it. We also have started using some C# but that's only to replace some positively ancient Access applications and then is probably going to promptly get thrown in the toilet.
  
  One of the nice things about Java is that it's relatively powerful AND flexible. Now personally I loathe Java for many reasons but even I can't argue that it's become very effective. We could do more work in Ruby and Python but that would mean performance losses that we cannot accept and market support that we cannot accept either. We could do more work in C/C++, Fortran, or similar for the heavy lifting but if you've already got the bulk of the application written in Java it's not *that* hard to make the Java code fast enough to work for our purposes (fast, but not realtime fast). Plus your knowledge pool with your developers stays specialized and high (bad for their careers, but if they don't care then by all means bleed 'em dry I suppose...not that I agree).
  
  --
  "Just a fox, a whisper."
40. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Gr8Apes · 2011-10-06 09:04 · Score: 1
  
  Compared to C++ or C, Java is slow. How slow depends on the workload. Anywhere from a few percent to a large multiple, the latter being fairly easy to trigger by hitting the JIT just the way it doesn't like.
  If you care about performance or latency, Java is the wrong language. But it's faster than Python.
  It depends upon how it's written, or are you unaware of the tests showing Java beating C++ by a large margin? Granted, they're probably all biased, intentionally or not, by the authors own capabilities, but even so, Java is not "slow", especially not in a server platform. It's also a whole lot easier to program robustly, especially by the majority of "CS Majors" currently being cranked out of schools. (That's another topic entirely) Note that there are seeming classes of problems that C++ would be faster in such as iterating across arrays of arrays of arrays, but a decent programmer can eliminate 95% of the performance hit with a proper iteration algorithm, and the remaining 5% can be removed by removing bounds checking in the JVM, bringing the operations in line with a C++ compiled runtime.
  MicroBenchmark with Java being the best until custom memory handling was introduced into C++
  Old Bencmark with some number crunching occurring
  Just a couple of supporting links. If you want more, google is your friend.
  
  --
  The cesspool just got a check and balance.
41. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Gr8Apes · 2011-10-06 09:12 · Score: 1
  
  JDK 7 has some serious goodness in it, for my needs anyways. And I'm fine if there's less bloat. You may see my improvements as bloat, and what I think of as bloat your core needs. Depends upon your viewpoint.
  Microsoft gained a lead on Java? With what? I've done a year in .NET recently, and while it has some ok features, it's still got a long way to go to match the capabilities and dev environment provided by even Java 6 and Eclipse. And never mind the CF underneath the covers that MS calls security....
  
  --
  The cesspool just got a check and balance.
42. Re:And they said Java was dead! by kaffiene · 2011-10-06 14:14 · Score: 1
  
  Nice. Yeah, you get right to the point. Being cool seems to be more important than Getting Shit Done for a large number of giggling morons. Hacker News seems to be full of them,
43. Re:And they said Java was dead! by kaffiene · 2011-10-06 14:16 · Score: 1
  
  Bullshit. My company are producing new products in Java precisely because it is such an open ecosystem.
44. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Eskarel · 2011-10-06 20:25 · Score: 1
  
  LINQ for one is a major feature that Java doesn't have. Lamda expressions are another. Visual Studio 2010, at least if you have one of the higher license grades and get the write plugins is better than Eclipse in most ways(though I admit Mylin is just dead sexy, and Eclipse is a hell of a lot cheaper). Microsoft has also introduced a bunch of really nice frameworks to play with, at least so long as you're working with them on Windows, they're quite a lot easier to work with than JEE6.
  As for Java 7, I don't have an objection to its feature set, there's a few syntax things I find ugly, but that's not a huge deal. My issue with it is that after 4 years, we should probably have been seeing the feature set of 8 with this release. I understand why that isn't the case, and I'm far from saying that Java is dead or dying, I'm just saying that for a long while it looked like it was at some risk, and they've got to keep up the momentum to keep it going.
45. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Daniel+Phillips · 2011-10-07 06:50 · Score: 1
  
  It depends upon how it's written, or are you unaware of the tests showing Java beating C++ by a large margin?
  I am absolutely unaware of such tests. I know that long ago (more than ten years) Hotspot was actually able to generate better code than gcc in some situations, but that is ancient history.
  I am certain that Java is slow on servers compared to C++ (gcc). I have measured this in detail, and determined at least some of the reasons.
  Your points about Java robustness certainly have merit, however my point is that if you care about the fastest, most compact, lowest latency software possible you better not use Java.
  
  --
  Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
46. Re:And they said Java was dead! by SteeldrivingJon · 2011-10-08 15:43 · Score: 1
  
  So two years, then.
  
  --
  September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
47. Re:And they said Java was dead! by Hylandr · 2011-10-08 20:13 · Score: 1
  
  Lol 24.
  
  --
  ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Desktop by Atzanteol · 2011-10-05 10:27 · Score: 1

Still no love for Java on the desktop?

--
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

- Charles Darwin
1. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:30 · Score: 0
  
  JavaFX is love for the desktop.
2. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:33 · Score: 0
  
  Java on the desktop == monster fail. Not to mention the JVM is probably one of the biggest security holes on any OS behind Flash.
3. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:39 · Score: 0
  
  C++ on the desktop == monster fail. Not to mention the GCC is probably one of the biggest security holes on any OS behind Flash.
  Seems legit.
4. Re:Desktop by nurb432 · 2011-10-05 10:42 · Score: 2
  
  Thankfully, no.
  
  --
  ---- Booth was a patriot ----
5. Re:Desktop by julesh · 2011-10-05 10:50 · Score: 1
  
  I fail to see how having a JVM is any more of a security hole than having the ability to execute native code.
  Desktop java != applets.
6. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 11:02 · Score: 0
  
  That's fine in theory. The problem isn't the theory though. The problem is the implementation of Sun / Oracle JAVA is full of security bugs. And Oracle doesn't patch them; they only do new full versions. And those new full versions always break some existing apps in ways that require the developers to put out fixes. So you are always stuck either running the known vulnerable version of Java or having some of your critical enterprise applications not run. It is a nightmare on the desktop. Not because a JVM is a bad idea. Because Oracle JRE is bad code.
7. Re:Desktop by GoblinKing · 2011-10-05 11:12 · Score: 1
  
  He means, and this is my assumption, that running Java applications on the desktop via the JVM is no less secure than running natively compiled code on the desktop. Perhaps a better definition of where the security "holes" are located and/or transported would be a more enlightening discourse (applets? browser JVM integration? JNLP?)
8. Re:Desktop by lehphyro · 2011-10-05 11:24 · Score: 2
  
  Java + SWT is great for the desktop. The best portable runtime environment with native look and feel. What more do you want on top of that?
9. Re:Desktop by PhrstBrn · 2011-10-05 11:35 · Score: 1
  
  That's fine in theory. The problem isn't the theory though. The problem is the implementation of Sun / Oracle JAVA is full of security bugs. And Oracle doesn't patch them; they only do new full versions. And those new full versions always break some existing apps in ways that require the developers to put out fixes. So you are always stuck either running the known vulnerable version of Java or having some of your critical enterprise applications not run. It is a nightmare on the desktop. Not because a JVM is a bad idea. Because Oracle JRE is bad code.
  programs are full of security holes because I can run any app I want and it can exploit my system and fails to fix them.
  I don't understand what you are saying either. Because desktop java isn't a security "magic bullet" doesn't mean it's crap. Don't use it to run untrusted code. Native applications have the same problem with untrusted code, as do interpreted languages and everything else that runs on a computer. If you want safe computing, unplug your computer and go outside.
10. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 11:36 · Score: 0
  
  I fail to see how having a JVM is any more of a security hole than having the ability to execute native code.
  Because the JVM is claimed to provide all this security and sandboxing yet it is itself a huge exploit hole?
  
  Desktop java != applets.
  No shit, Sherlock? Whoever said they were the same thing?
11. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 11:39 · Score: 0
  
  No, he's mostly an idiotic java weenie doing a cut-and-paste attempt a comeback that was pretty shitty. And his comeback doesn't even make sense since GCC isn't even a resident process when you run a native code application so the attempt at making an analogy between the two fails pretty hard.
12. Re:Desktop by binarylarry · 2011-10-05 11:42 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not the original poster, but having gcc on a machine is indeed a potentially security problem.
  I'm not sure what the original poster is talking about.
  The JVM has had a few security issues now and again but the real problem has been the browser plugin (which isn't really related to the JVM/JRE at all). The plugin(s) also suck and Snoracle never cared enough to make them decent or secure.
  
  --
  Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
13. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 12:11 · Score: 0
  
  Not quite right, but close.
  The closest GCC has to a VM is the standard library. The OP was bemoaning the JVM has security holes, not the code that the application author wrote. There's probably equal probability finding security holes in the JVM and C++ application code, but I would guess that there are fewer security holes in GCC's runtime libs then either.
14. Re:Desktop by chrb · 2011-10-05 12:15 · Score: 1
  
  The analogy makes sense. The C and Java JIT compilers produce some kind of executable binary which then gets run. There is only one process when the binary is executed, regardless of platform. With non-JIT Java you might have a point about there being an interpreter layer (what you refer to as a "process"). But with JIT, the code is compiled before execution just like C++. In terms of security there is no real difference between gcj and gcc. Both require a supporting runtime environment, both have potential security problems in the runtime environment, and in compiled code. Perhaps you meant to point out that the JVM can be used to run applets on the web, but that is not something that is intrinsic to Java - DirectX code can be written in C++ and can also be insecure.
15. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 12:32 · Score: 0
  
  SWT performance is terrible. It may have native look and feel, but it sure doesn't perform that way.
16. Re:Desktop by chrb · 2011-10-05 12:39 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Well, in hindsight it would have been nice if Sun had adopted SWT and its native widgets instead of pushing Swing on the desktop for years and getting nowhere. Yes, I get it, writing a cross-platform native GUI layer that acts the same on every platform is hard, but they had numerous options. They could have bought or licensed QT. They could have adopted SWT. Or wxJava. Or even GTK (like most Mono LInux desktop apps).
  It would have been nice if they had open sourced the JDK a decade earlier instead of waiting until they felt the heat from gcj. Java could have been the dominant platform for writing cross-platform desktop apps, instead Sun was pushing applets, and it took until SWT before I saw the first Java desktop app that didn't suck (Eclipse). Imagine my surprise when I found that the second Java desktop app that didn't suck (Azureus) was also based on SWT.
  Applications like Eclipse, Azureus, and Banshee show that Java/Mono style languages can do desktop apps, but for whatever reasons the Sun AWT/Swing combination went nowhere. If it were a true open source project I'm sure they would've adopted another GUI widget layer, but they didn't, probably because Sun wanted exclusive ownership rights.
17. Re:Desktop by SplashMyBandit · 2011-10-05 14:44 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Actually, if you know what you are doing then Swing is second to none (to bad most people don't have enough decent knowledge of Swing to use it effectively). With the Nimbus look-and-feel it is also pretty nice (at least that's what I have heard from the users that are used to fugly Windows apps - that are even more inconsistent than the Java ones).
  SWT seems ok until you start to develop it. Then you realise it is awful. Then if you have to develop in SWT off Windows you realise it is even more horrible. Then you have professional projects where you need to extend SWT and you look deep under the covers and realise SWT is really, truly bone-deep-ugly. Then you go back to Swing and life is much, much better - especially ever since Java 1.6u10+ (Nimbus and fully hardware accelerated rendering on multiple platforms).
18. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 17:27 · Score: 0
  
  Any non-restricted binary (GCC usually produces those) more access to the underlying space than one run on a JVM. The comment against the JVM was weak. It was successfully shown to be such in an appropriately mocking way.
19. Re:Desktop by peppepz · 2011-10-05 17:41 · Score: 1
  
  Java had a native UI layer, it was called AWT, and it really sucked because it exploited the least common denominator of all the platforms that Java supported. So it felt "bolted-on", was hard to use and wasn't flexible. A bit like Java ME. And it's still there if you want to use it, but you really don't want to.
  Moreover, using any widget library other than the OS-provided one will result in applications that might look native at a first look, but then will differ in behaviour from true native applications in many subtle ways. Look-and-feel sensitive users will notice that (try selling something not based on Cocoa to Mac users).
  Swing is very easy to code for and its integration with Java2D allows for a flexibility I've never seen in other toolkits (e.g. you can draw a button rotated by 27 degrees, a text label mirrored, or add a border around any widget with just a couple lines of code). And it also has a "native" look and feel available.
  IMHO, the problem with Swing UIs lies with its response times: often, the first time you use some part of the UI, it will take more time to load and display it than a native widget set would do. From a developer's point of view, instead, I dislike its LayoutManagers: there are a lot of them available, but in my experience for some reason none of them happen to do what I'd like them to do (i.e. placing widgets in a sane and predictable way).
20. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 18:48 · Score: 0
  
  SWT seems ok until you start to develop it. Then you realise it is awful.
  Exactly. Why the hell do I need to call dispose() on every single piece of shit (Color object? OMG!)?
  Stop talking about how SWT is great and Swing is bad if you clearly don't use Java GUI apps that much. SWT may be faster, but not that much. Swing is the "Java way" of doing GUI.
21. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 21:37 · Score: 0
  
  I can't stand SWT from the perspective of a user. It peeves me off no end having to download a different eclipse bundle for each OS just because of a few arch-specific components.
22. Re:Desktop by Chrisq · 2011-10-05 21:39 · Score: 1
  
  He means, and this is my assumption, that running Java applications on the desktop via the JVM is no less secure than running natively compiled code on the desktop. Perhaps a better definition of where the security "holes" are located and/or transported would be a more enlightening discourse (applets? browser JVM integration? JNLP?)
  Its interesting that when you come to general purpose programming languages they will all allow you to do insecure things. If you can't do something that the native os platform allows is a limitation of the language, not really an advantage. What counts is that the program should make it hard to do insecure things accidentally without adding too much of a burden on doing them deliberately. In my opinion C++ is moderately good at both, where as Java is probably better at preventing you from doing things accidentally but harder to do them deliberately - in some cases having to use JNI to call out to the system to do it.
23. Re:Desktop by makomk · 2011-10-05 22:48 · Score: 2
  
  Having a JVM - or any kind of virtual machine - is actually a pretty big security issue. For native code, modern OSes are hardened with protections like no-exec flags on data that make it harder to exploit many common classes of security holes, but as soon as you introduce a sufficiently capable virtual machine into your process this hardening becomes worthless. As far as the processor is concerned, the VM bytecode is just data like any other data, and it's fairly easy to use any security holes to trick the VM into executing your own malicious bytecode, bypassing noexec entirely.
24. Re:Desktop by sourcerror · 2011-10-05 23:26 · Score: 1
  
  Well, you could say that about perl/python/ruby either.
  On the other hand, Java applets run in a sandbox defined by security policies.
  http://download.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/environment/security.html
25. Re:Desktop by sourcerror · 2011-10-05 23:30 · Score: 1
  
  "Swing is very easy to code for and its integration with Java2D allows for a flexibility I've never seen in other toolkits (e.g. you can draw a button rotated by 27 degrees, a text label mirrored,"
  WPF can do that, but it has a much steeper learning curve, and is bound to MS. Mono doesn't have a WPF library and isn't planning to do one either.
26. Re:Desktop by Raenex · 2011-10-06 02:39 · Score: 1
  
  As a user, in every Swing app I've used since it came out it always fucks up basic things like being able to double-click. Fail.
  Also, I'm now working via a remote desktop, and Swing apps behave awfully because they don't use native widgets. Meanwhile, over the same connection Eclipse runs beautifully.
  I don't care how ugly SWT is behind the scenes, because where it counts, the user experience, it delivers. Swing sucks for users.
27. Re:Desktop by SplashMyBandit · 2011-10-06 05:19 · Score: 1
  
  you forget to consider that SWT pretty much only works decently on Windows. Most of the digerati have moved or are moving from there. Don't be left behind.
28. Re:Desktop by Raenex · 2011-10-06 05:38 · Score: 1
  
  you forget to consider that SWT pretty much only works decently on Windows.
  I'm actually running Eclipse on Linux. It's quite nice that I can actually do this on a VPN with good response times. Swing apps perform badly.
  
  Don't be left behind.
  Thanks for the laugh. You sound like a Christian evangelist.
29. Re:Desktop by SplashMyBandit · 2011-10-06 07:10 · Score: 1
  
  > Swing apps perform badly.
  Who is the evangelist? Java2D (=> all of Swing) is fully hardware accelerated (DirextX shaders on Windows and OpenGL shaders everywhere else) since Java 1.6u10 (came out years ago). Boy you are out of date, still clinging to very old notions (since according to the French scientific supercompting outfit INRIA even several years ago Java is faster than C++ and C for their purposes, and is approaching FORTRAN, please read this article and the linked paper http://blogs.oracle.com/jag/entry/current_state_of_java_for). Incidentally, Swing works perfectly for my apps on RDP, but if there is a fault rendering then the fault is RDPs not Swings. Being a pro I most often have to use a flavour of VNC and Swing is fine on this. I run Eclipse on MacOS (after using it for years on Linux, since I've used Linux since kernel 0.20) and it is ok (with some bugs), but the so is Netbeans. Your out-of-date picture of Java/Swing performance is laughable.
30. Re:Desktop by Raenex · 2011-10-06 08:09 · Score: 1
  
  Java2D (=> all of Swing) is fully hardware accelerated (DirextX shaders on Windows and OpenGL shaders everywhere else) since Java 1.6u10 (came out years ago).
  And how are those hardware accelerations going to transmit across the VPN to a remote desktop? Native widgets work well in the scenario I was talking about. Swing doesn't.
  
  Java is faster than C++ and C for their purposes
  I didn't say anything about Java performance except as to how it applies in using a remote desktop. Sending bits of screen redraws doesn't work.
  
  Incidentally, Swing works perfectly for my apps on RDP, but if there is a fault rendering then the fault is RDPs not Swings.
  I don't know why it works for you. Maybe you have a very fast network on a lan compared to the VPN I run through, which adds encryption to the mix, and is over the Internet. All I can tell you is that Swing widgets are not native, SWT is, and so they perform well. RDP can't magically fix Swing if it isn't using native widgets.
  I can also tell you that something as simple as double-clicking working in a native fashion has always failed me as well. That's over 10 years of something fundamentally fucked up.
31. Re:Desktop by SplashMyBandit · 2011-10-06 13:21 · Score: 1
  
  > And how are those hardware accelerations going to transmit across the VPN to a remote desktop? Native widgets work well in the scenario I was talking about. Swing doesn't.
  Don't you know that at the root level Swing *is a native widget* with some custom rendering in it. What you are suggesting is that any native widget with custom rendering in it would break for you in RDP. Somehow you think this is the Java team's responsibility and not Microsoft's? Like I said, use VNC instead of RDP - and it is a shame you are on a slug VPN but that ain't Swing's fault either.
  > I can also tell you that something as simple as double-clicking working in a native fashion has always failed me as well. That's over 10 years of something fundamentally fucked up.
  That's because many developers are (sadly) 9-to-5 muppets rather than craftsmen.
32. Re:Desktop by Raenex · 2011-10-06 13:55 · Score: 1
  
  Don't you know that at the root level Swing *is a native widget* with some custom rendering in it.
  It's one big fat widget instead of something like native buttons known by the operating system. That's why remote desktop doesn't optimize it like it does for native applications.
  
  it is a shame you are on a slug VPN but that ain't Swing's fault either.
  The point is that SWT-based Eclipse runs just fine over this connection, whereas the Swing applications do not. That's the penalty of not using the underlying system.
  
  That's because many developers are (sadly) 9-to-5 muppets rather than craftsmen.
  Maybe you mean the developers of Swing, because this is basic functionality that I've seen broken in every Swing app. Double-click should match whatever the native system does. It doesn't, and it never has in over ten fucking years.
33. Re:Desktop by SplashMyBandit · 2011-10-06 16:22 · Score: 1
  
  public int java.awt.event.MouseEvent.getClickCount()
  
  can be used to get double-clicks. Swing supports it but the developers didn't hook up any events to the double click. The problem is the developers, not Swing.
  
  You run Eclipse via Remote Desktop? Madness. Don't you know how to remote debug ? (built into the JVM by the way, there is nothing that beats JVisualVM since you profile stuff, including the JVM, without specifically compiling for it).
34. Re:Desktop by Raenex · 2011-10-06 19:22 · Score: 1
  
  Swing supports it but the developers didn't hook up any events to the double click. The problem is the developers, not Swing.
  The problem is with Swing, because the standard Swing widgets do not do double click right. It's not that double-click isn't supported, it is, it's just that it fails to register quite often. The timing is different.
  
  You run Eclipse via Remote Desktop? Madness. Don't you know how to remote debug ?
  I work for a financial company from home. They have strict security rules about what leaves the network, so I essentially have to work remotely on their machine on their site. What's cool is that Eclipse works surprisingly well, quite unlike the Swing apps.
35. Re:Desktop by julesh · 2011-10-09 01:48 · Score: 1
  
  That's fine in theory. The problem isn't the theory though. The problem is the implementation of Sun / Oracle JAVA is full of security bugs.
  
  And as long as you don't set up your browser to run untrusted java code by default, *it doesn't matter how many such bugs there are*. I don't say this because I'm a Java fanboy, or an Oracle shill. I say this because I'm fed up of people blaming entire systems for insecurity when it's actually the way they are trying to use them that's insecure. Java is a huge system. Applets are a very small part of it, and are the only part that can really be considered insecure. Disable links between your browser and your JVM, and you're (1) perfectly safe and (2) will probably never notice the difference.
36. Re:Desktop by julesh · 2011-10-09 01:50 · Score: 1
  
  Do you have reference to any actual, real-world exploits that rely on such a flaw?
  As I understand it, the JVM's security protections against treating arbitrary data as bytecode are at least as good as most operating system level protections against treating data as code, but I'd be willing to see counterevidence if it's available.
My Plan by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:29 · Score: 0
1. Exclude Java from consideration for any future projects
2. Develop a plan to migrate existing projects away from Java and Oracle
3. Develop a contingency plan to deal with Oracle's legal actions
4. Figure out how to make Android run C#
1. Re:My Plan by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:36 · Score: 0
  Exclude Java from consideration for any future projects
  Develop a plan to migrate existing projects away from Java and Oracle
  Develop a contingency plan to deal with Oracle's legal actions
  Figure out how to make Android run C#
  So let's see, your plan boils down to:
  Make it more expensive to hire programmers for your projects
  Double your workload by rewriting everything you've already done
  Hire a lawyer and pay her a lot of money to tell you that since you're not using Oracle products, you have no legal issues to worry about.
  Invest time and effort in a pipe-dream that, should it actually succeed, will in-fact incur legal actions from Microsoft.
  Can I subscribe your newsletter?
2. Re:My Plan by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:53 · Score: 0
  
  Figure out how to make Android run C#
  android.xamarin.com ... there you go ;)
3. Re:My Plan by victorhooi · 2011-10-05 12:11 · Score: 1
  
  heya,
  Yeah, Java is firmly entrenched in enterprise, and I don't see massive rewrites happening.
  However, that's not to say you can't subtly encourage new projects to go in different directions.
  The problem is - what is the best alternative? C# and the .NET family simply lock you into Microsoft.
  Personally, I'd love to see Python take hold, but it's still lacking traction in many enterprise settings (although that's changing slowly).
  And hmm, why is your lawyer automatically a her? I was always curious whether people's choice of pronouns was directly related or inversely related to their own gender. Would be interesting to a stat analysis on that.
  Cheers,
  Victor
4. Re:My Plan by chrb · 2011-10-05 12:46 · Score: 1
  
  Invest time and effort in a pipe-dream that, should it actually succeed, will in-fact incur legal actions from Microsoft.
  Pipe-dream? It already exists: Mono for Android, Mono for iPad and iPhone
5. Re:My Plan by rrohbeck · 2011-10-05 14:01 · Score: 1
  
  C#? You must be kidding. Replace the blind overlord with the evil one?
  
  --
  thegodmovie.com - watch it
Jack Handy said it best... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:36 · Score: 0, Troll

"If your keys (language) ever fall into a river of molten lava (Oracle), just let them go, 'cuz man, they're gone!"
It's a trap! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:43 · Score: 1

All of us who work with Oracle databases know this already. What they plan to do is open source just enough to make it attractive, get you dependant and locked in, then charge like a wounded bull. Notice they're open sourcing JavaFX in stages - the first hit is free, kid!
1. Re:It's a trap! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 10:58 · Score: 0
  
  All of us who work with Oracle databases know this already. What they plan to do is open source just enough to make it attractive, get you dependant and locked in, then charge like a wounded bull. Notice they're open sourcing JavaFX in stages - the first hit is free, kid!
  +1.
  In any case Java is dead on the desktop, dead and buried under a 100 feet of concrete and no, JavaFX is not going to bring it back. You can have all the goodness of a declarative language for GUI by going the Qt route (QML language).
  And no worries about Oracle.
2. Re:It's a trap! by afabbro · 2011-10-05 11:53 · Score: 1
  
  All of us who work with Oracle databases know this already.
  What are you talking about? The Oracle Database has always had a closed-source, commercial model. Anyone who implemented on Oracle always knew what they were getting.
  
  --
  Advice: on VPS providers
3. Re:It's a trap! by lakeland · 2011-10-05 12:21 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  It's more subtle than that.
  For instance using standard Oracle is pretty cheap... and it's not until you start to say 'gee, if only we had partitioning these performance problems would go away' that you really get stung.
  Then you start doing spatial analysis and find the Spatial features easier to use than the crippled Locator.
  Or you try a new database for a new project and because it's still a POC everything is free, until you go live...
  Or you upgrade from dual core to quad as part of a regular hardware upgrade - only to find you need to buy twice the licences.
  Or you discover that sometimes hardware does fail and you need RAC.
  By the time those sort of things happen it's too late to say 'well, it would've been free if only we'd used MS SQL, Postgres or any other vendor'. Oracle's sting isn't the initial purchase price.
  Also, have you ever tried running a system outside support & maintenance? I know a number of companies that keep extra Oracle licences around because they don't dare repurchase them if they ever do end up needing them.
4. Re:It's a trap! by mswhippingboy · 2011-10-05 12:43 · Score: 1
  
  I couldn't disagree more.
  Android on (or instead of) the desktop is soon to come. The desktop will soon be touch enabled running some follow on to ice-cream sandwich that works well on phones, tablets and the desktop.
  Don't think so? Take a look at Windows 8 if you don't think the desktop and touch screen technologies are quickly merging.
  While Oracles' legal team is trying to slow down Andriod, its getting it's Java ME inline with SE and JavaFX to make a run for the mobile/tablet/desktop itself.
  Java dead on the desktop? - I don't think so.
  
  --
  Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
5. Re:It's a trap! by ADRA · 2011-10-05 14:31 · Score: 1
  
  They have a business model that makes them a f**k ton of money and love em or hate em, they're still one if not the best database on the market. If you really don't like paying a TON of money for a database, I recommend not using Oracle. If you want a database that "Just works" and well, use Oracle.
  
  --
  Bye!
6. Re:It's a trap! by ADRA · 2011-10-05 14:32 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, I'll amend that, sometimes Oracle can be a real bitch to setup / configure, but I guess if you can afford an Oracle DB then you can afford a decent DBA to manage it...
  
  --
  Bye!
7. Re:It's a trap! by lakeland · 2011-10-05 14:42 · Score: 1
  
  Yep, I'll give you that (with the caveat about a DBA which you noted).
  The thing which has burned me in the past is I've been able to afford to run a basic Oracle DB, but not to add on things like RAC - so I'm left without features which I would've been able to afford had I gone SQL Server.
8. Re:It's a trap! by SplashMyBandit · 2011-10-05 14:47 · Score: 1
  
  Um, Java is already fully open-sourced, before Oracle got their filthy mitts on it. OpenJDK is still alive and well and is pretty much the reference implementation these days (and is identical to the Oracle branded one). You gotta keep current on your reading bro (well, catch up on the last two years at least).
Java by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 11:00 · Score: 0

Hope that java will not be another WebOs forgot by everyone.
Ademir Parmezan
Upshot by the+eric+conspiracy · 2011-10-05 11:01 · Score: 1

So basically they are working on everything except what really matters, Java 8.
1. Re:Upshot by trims · 2011-10-05 11:59 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Actually, I'd argue that JDK 8 isn't that important right now. People are still adjusting to JDK 7, and fixing the issues with JDK 7 should have a higher priority than doing all new stuff for JDK 8. Especially since there are very few features slated for 8 that are of broad immediate appeal. Honestly, I was never a believer than less than 2 years between major JDK releases was a good idea. It takes at least a couple of years for vendors to move to the new JDK, and stabilization of a release takes awhile (as the user base of the JDK is enormous, and there's no substitute for real-world running of apps to shake out bugs in the JDK).
  JDK 7 was released 2 months ago. Focusing on making that a better product, rather than jump right into spending all their effort on a future release is, IMHO, the more responsible use of limited resources.
  Of course, nothing is preventing community work on OpenJDK 8.
  -Erik
  
  --
  There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
2. Re:Upshot by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 14:21 · Score: 0
  
  Of course, nothing is preventing community work on OpenJDK 8.
  
  Nothing except that the open source jvms are intended to run the same code as the official sun/oracle one?
3. Re:Upshot by trims · 2011-10-05 16:58 · Score: 1
  
  Umm... you do know that the reference OpenJDK is 99% of the Oracle JDK? If it makes it into the OpenJDK, it goes into the Oracle JDK? That both will always run the same code?
  
  --
  There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
4. Re:Upshot by m50d · 2011-10-05 18:45 · Score: 1
  
  Especially since there are very few features slated for 8 that are of broad immediate appeal.
  Lambda? Type annotations? When I looked at the list of features in 7 it sounded like all the good stuff had been moved to 8.
  
  --
  I am trolling
5. Re:Upshot by Gr8Apes · 2011-10-06 09:16 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, I'd argue that JDK 8 isn't that important right now. People are still adjusting to JDK 7, and fixing the issues with JDK 7 should have a higher priority than doing all new stuff for JDK 8.
  I'd say based on my experience that's there's still a sizable group out there that's having trouble adjusting to JDK 5 or 6. JDK 7 isn't even on the horizon yet.
  
  --
  The cesspool just got a check and balance.
Right... by Corson · 2011-10-05 11:02 · Score: 1

But notice that both the Microsoft and Apple monopolies absolutely hate apps that require any third party runtime in order to run on their respective platforms. For now, Adobe's AIR / Flash is in the fry pan and Java may be next. Not to mention that Oracle have a history of violence with a number of companies and people. Java may still have a future on servers, but on desktops/notebooks/tables/smartphones? Just hit the eject button.
1. Re:Right... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 11:11 · Score: 0
  
  Did it ever have a future on desktops/notebooks/tables/smartphones?
2. Re:Right... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 11:13 · Score: 0
  
  Android ...
3. Re:Right... by lehphyro · 2011-10-05 11:27 · Score: 1
  
  Android and JavaME are the biggest mobile platforms today so java actually is the biggest winner in tablets, phones, tv cable/over the air boxes, bluray, etc.
4. Re:Right... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 11:36 · Score: 1
  
  Java may still have a future on servers, but on desktops/notebooks/tables/smartphones? Just hit the eject button.
  The future of desktops / notebooks / tablets / smartphones IS on the server side. And this if we like it or if we don't.
  You may have heard of "HTML5" and you may have heard of "The Cloud". You may have heard of that little company having 750 million users called "FaceBook" and that other little company called "Google" providing things like GMail and Google Docs.
5. Re:Right... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 11:49 · Score: 0
  
  This is true to some extent but there is still a place for offline applications. The future of Desktop applications is web technology driven Desktop projects IMO both offline and cloud. Everything is going to go using web technologies as front ends and Java/.net technologies to drive the data. If you think you can make a Java/C# front end project that will be commonly used in 10 years time, I think your mistaken or it will be that legacy application that everyone hates. I know there are disadvantages to this approach but I think it is the way it is going.
6. Re:Right... by QuantumRiff · 2011-10-05 14:12 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Have you tried running a Microsoft App lately without installing the .NET 3.5, 4, 2.2, 1.1, 1.0, and maybe another couple of .Net runtimes? I have a couple of guys at work that are gung ho .NET developers right out of school. And they hate java because you have to install a runtime and its slow.. I laugh every time...
  
  --
  
  What are we going to do tonight Brain?
7. Re:Right... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 14:46 · Score: 0
  
  Remember, Java first showed up in the 90s. At the time, there were more processor architectures in serious play. SGI had used the Motorola chips, then later MIPS. Apple used Motorola and later Power; they only switched to Intel x86 in 2006. The DEC Alpha was still around. Sun's Sparc hadn't yet been relegated to the server room only. The Itanium was upcoming (though it hadn't actually come out until the 90s were over). A variety of chips were available for set top boxes, also, which was one of Java's original targets.
  This made the JVM a lot more of a big deal back then. And that may also further inform memories of why Microsoft tried to break Java's portability; Java was a serious threat for the same reason that Netscape was; if the next wave of Killer App was written in something cross platform, that would have facilitated migration away from Windows. And now, with the rise of ARM on devices that are more powerful than what we had for desktops in the 1990s, a window of opportunity is opening back up as we exit the x86 desert wasteland.
8. Re:Right... by SplashMyBandit · 2011-10-05 14:54 · Score: 1
  
  Java isn't going away no matter how much competing corporations would like to change it. Apple's desktop share is still niche (different market to gadgets/phones) so they can be ignored (although JDK runs find on my Lion MacBook). Microsoft desktops all support JVM very well (in fact, that's optimized for that platform). Java in the Enterprise is not going away and neither is Java on the desktop. Remember the company that just eclipsed Microsoft in market cap (that is, IBM), well they are heavily invested in Java (their own version of course, but fully compatible). In short, you're spreading uninformed, inaccurate FUD (at best)/malicious bollox (at worst). Computing is not only the desktop! (and Java works just about everywhere, except in the niches you point out were it is deliberately excluded by corporate policy).
9. Re:Right... by Corson · 2011-10-05 16:32 · Score: 1
  
  Those of us who were born yesterday know that the client/server model has always existed. In the beginning there was the wardrobe-size central processing unit (not to be confused with CPU) in an air-conditioned room and text-based terminals scattered throughout the building. Then the corporate world started using Lotus Notes or Microsoft Outlook for email/calendar/scheduler. Such tools rely on servers to run but user machines must have pretty good specs for the client software to run reasonably fast. For example, two years ago my office desktop computer had to be upgraded to 2 GB of RAM and a dual-core AMD 64 X2 @ 2.4 Ghz. The future may be on the server side (affectionately known as "The Cloud") provided users have powerful desktops/notebooks/tablets/smartphones. What has changed is the distance between client and server machines. Add the huge monthly fees that users must pay to read their email on their smartphones.
  As for HTML5, before it there were many others: Carbon & Cocoa, Windows Forms, WPF, Gtk, Qt. As exciting as HTML5 may seem it will be "legacy" technology in a couple years.
  Facebook is useful if all you want is to share photos, videos, and messages with your "friends". Some call that socializing. But one day I got tired of that and I closed my Facebook account. When I want to socialize I call my friends and we get together for a beer.
  We cannot use Gmail or Gdocs at work as the documents we receive from clients (mainly industry) contain confidential information, non disclosure agreements, etc.
10. Re:Right... by Corson · 2011-10-05 16:37 · Score: 1
  
  Android is Dalvik, not Java. And yes, I agree that Dalvik has a future on Android :)
11. Re:Right... by Corson · 2011-10-05 16:45 · Score: 1
  
  The fact is, .NET is pre-installed on Windows: Windows 7 SP1 now comes with .NET 4.0 (e.g., laptop recently purchased from Dell). Java runtime needs to be installed once and then it will be automatically updated when necessary.... provided it is allowed to do so. On my work computer the sysadmin has set policies that prevent it. In my experience, Java GUI applications do run slower than other programs. I hate that as many programs that I use were developed in Java, mostly by academic developers.
12. Re:Right... by lennier1 · 2011-10-05 17:09 · Score: 0
  
  Usually an old version is already installed. You need to install additional runtimes, reboot a couple of times and sacrifice a first-born to get newer applications working.
13. Re:Right... by sourcerror · 2011-10-05 17:19 · Score: 1
  
  Dalvik is the runtime. Java is the language.
14. Re:Right... by t2t10 · 2011-10-05 20:41 · Score: 1
  
  And god, I hope Java is next because it is yet another proprietary platform and the crappiest of the bunch.
Oracle by Dunbal · 2011-10-05 11:25 · Score: 1, Insightful

At the rate you're going, I will soon be using Java None.

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Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Source? by trims · 2011-10-05 11:45 · Score: 5, Informative

Please. The Oracle (formerly Sun) JVM is not "full of holes". And, Oracle does patch them - what do you think all those Update release are for? Oh, you wanted a patch for just that specific fix into a given (random) Update release, did you? Do you have any experience in managing such a project as the JVM? Point patches are a massive headache to manage - so much so, that while I was at Oracle (in the very JVM group you disparage), we couldn't find a reasonable way to manage point patches well on even the paying customers. And, I worked with a bunch of folks far smarter than the average programmer.
I was in the Sun JVM group for over 7 years (2004-2011). In that time, there were only 3 "critical" exploits published for the JVM, and less than a dozen for the entire JDK. There were more than that for "serious" bugs/problems, but those weren't security breaches (which, were, by definition, an exploit). I should know, I was the Gatekeeper for the JVM.
Newer versions (i.e. 4.1.2 -> 5 -> 6 -> 7 ) do certainly break a non-trivial number of older apps, and require fixes. Updates to a given release (i.e. 6u10 -> 6u20) do very occasionally break something if you jump a large number of Update releases; however, most of the cases we found in such breakage of apps was the developer's fault in either using an undocumented "feature", a feature which was marked "obsolete", or one which was marked as "unsupported". If you stuck to the documented API of supported features, well, it wasn't absolutely 100% bug-free upgradable, but then again, nothing is, and the JDK has an outstanding track record in that regard.
That's not to say that there aren't problems in both the JVM and JDK. It's just that you obviously don't know what you're talking about in the real world. Don't take my word for it: Google "Sun JVM security (hole OR flaw)" there are a very few links (maybe 2) to flaws in the past 5 years, a bundle of links to stories around 2004-2005 (which are all about the same set of bugs), and then practically everything else is at least 10 years old. Guess what? ALL of those have been fixed, relatively quickly, too.
-Erik

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There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
1. Re:Source? by mswhippingboy · 2011-10-05 12:33 · Score: 1
  
  Thank you. I couldn't agree more. The anti-java rhetoric is always so thick here I've (almost) gotten to the point I skip reading /. comments on java related articles because of the same old FUD.
  
  --
  Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
2. Re:Source? by ADRA · 2011-10-05 14:25 · Score: 1
  
  Thanks for all the work you guys put into the JVM over the years. I've been quite happy using the JVM. Haters will be haters, and Java's got a lot of haters. It just goes to show that the bigger you get the more polarized people are toward you. Anyways, good luck in whatever you've moved on to and so long, thanks for the fish.
  
  --
  Bye!
3. Re:Source? by SplashMyBandit · 2011-10-05 14:40 · Score: 1
  
  Thanks Erik. Love the JVM and the whole platform. The technology (and security) is amazing considering it works beautifully with all the code I've (properly/conformantly) written over the years through Irix-> Solaris -> Windows32 -> Ubuntu -> MacOS. Hope you are getting all the great life karma you deserve in your new professional life.
4. Re:Source? by Kjella · 2011-10-05 18:43 · Score: 1
  
  Not sure how this article which was on slashdot a few days ago arrived at 37% being due to Java JRE exploits, 32% acrobat and 16% flash exploits, but then people must be a lot more lazy updating their JRE than anything else...
  
  --
  Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
How about by Billly+Gates · 2011-10-05 12:17 · Score: 1

Fix your security holes first!
Just earlier today it was announced on slashdot that Java exploits count for 10x as much exploits than IE. That is seriously terrible

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http://saveie6.com/
1. Re:How about by SplashMyBandit · 2011-10-05 14:56 · Score: 1
  
  Java or JavaScript? I guess you don't even know the difference, rofl.
2. Re:How about by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 15:04 · Score: 0
  
  While I didn't bother to check I think it's safe to assume that's because almost no one ever bothers to update Java to the latest version.
3. Re:How about by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 16:18 · Score: 0
  
  Fix your security holes first!
  Just earlier today it was announced on slashdot that Java exploits count for 10x as much exploits than IE. That is seriously terrible
  Pay attention. They did fix their security holes. The article you're referring to explicitly states that the vulnerabilities are in old, unpatched versions of the JRE.
  Oh, and your "10x" number is utter bullshit.
4. Re:How about by lennier1 · 2011-10-05 17:11 · Score: 1
  
  Since the Java Updater tries to download a new update every other day I'm not surprised people don't give a shit anymore if the message pops up.
Re:Oracle to sue everybody who uses "free" Java? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 16:38 · Score: 0

Why stop at Google?
Um, maybe because they're the ones who implemented their own not-quite-Java version of the JVM?
Google is not being sued simply for "using" Java.
Yawn... Oracle killed Java.... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-05 17:39 · Score: 0

... GO... Google...
Oracle is quickly becoming the kiss-of-death to anything it touches.
Evil Plans by Andrioid · 2011-10-05 18:19 · Score: 1

Whenever I read "Oracle" and "Plans" I always assume they are evil plans. They have yet to disappoint me.
Jar files by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-06 00:24 · Score: 0

Until I can double click on a Jar file to execute it, Java/Oracle have lost the plot.
1. Re:Jar files by hey! · 2011-10-06 05:12 · Score: 1
  
  You can if you use Linux. On Ubuntu the default is to open the jar with the archive manager (which I think is sensible and safe), but you can change that to open a jar for execution with JRE or JDK instead in about five seconds. On Windows there's a command line executable -- "ftype" or something like that, or you could use the registry editor. In any case I doubt it'd take more than five minutes to figure it out.
  It's possible that the reason you don't care is simply that you don't know anything.
  
  --
  Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Re:Oracle to sue everybody who uses "free" Java? by walterbyrd · 2011-10-06 01:40 · Score: 1

If Java is "free" then why can't Google implemented their own not-quite-Java version of the JVM?
Free is free, right?
Besides, does Oracle actually know this? Or is this more like scox suing IBM for putting UNIX code in Linux? You know, a typical scam harassment suit.
Yeah, SWT sucks by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-06 09:34 · Score: 0

I agree with this. I develop Eclipse plugins in my day job and use Swing in my hobby work. I have found so many weird SWT bugs that it's not even funny. I am getting really tired of having to debug into SWT's badly-written, largely undocumented source code (you know, the stuff with the 300-line-long methods and enormous 'case' statements) to figure out weird, often operating-system-dependent bugs. On the other hand, just following a few basic guidelines in Swing gets me a nice, responsive GUI that looks the same on every platform (if I want it to, that is).