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Ask Derek Deville About High-Altitude Amateur Rocketry
A few days ago, we posted about Derek Deville's mind-blowing high-altitude rocket-launch in the Nevada desert. His 14-foot, GPS-equipped (four GPS units, actually) home-made rocket ("Qu8k") managed to hit 121,000 feet, an effort that took more than a trip to the store for more Estes "D" engines. Derek has graciously agreed to answer questions about Qu8k and other rocketry projects. Please confine your questions to one per post, but ask as many as you'd like.
How has the relationship with the ATF and other government agencies affected amateur rocketry since 9/11?
Civilan GPS has limits in speed and or altitude both of which you exceded. How did you measure altitude and speed? Air pressure?
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Will it blend?
Did you take precautions in case the rocket turned sideways or were you just hoping it wouldn't? Big rockets always have remote controlled self-destruct. Yours too?
When people ask what you do in your spare time. How do you answer them without their eyes glazing over? Or worse listening to you intently then asking you join their Militia or just reporting you to the FBI?
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Back in the 1950s and 1960s in the US, model rocketry was promoted as a way to interest youth in science and technology and, therefore, strengthen and defend the nation. However, amateur and, to a lesser extent, model rocketry are today seen by much of the public as a dangerous technology that should be suppressed, to keep it out of the hands of dangerous terrorists. How can the rocketry community regain public support?
How on earth do you convince your wife to let you do all those cool projects?
How did you track and recover your Rocket? I did not notice anything in the video referring to this. Was it purely visual? or was the on board GPS web linked, allowing you to see its location?
I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
I ( and many others ) have been thinking about balloon assisted launch systems recently.
Balloons seem like an excellent and flexible launch element which could offer a ton of altitude and avoidance of at least some friction. Have you heard of or considered this?
Are there plans or even a roadmap you could lay out towards orbital rocketry by serious amateur groups?
What rules & laws do you have to follow launching a rocket like this? With so many aircraft in the air im sure there must be
What kind of fuel did the rocket use?
People have been launching large rockets at the LDRS for decades. Nothing's changed since then. We use the same principles, the same materials, the same energy sources and go the same place, same altitude and same speed. What do you say to people who think we'll colonize the universe given what we know about physics and materials?
We know that shooting things into space is fun, but is it profitable? What do you do for a day job?
How did you maintain attitude on the rocket? I don't see any control mechanism on the description.
I'm wondering what materials you used to construct your rocket? The sustainer appears to be made from Aluminum with welded on Aluminum fins. However the nosecone appears to be made of two or more materials. Also what did you use for the shade over the video camera that apparently melted during the boost phase?
The rocket landed only 3 miles from the launch site despite the tail fins being fixed. IMHO, that's impressive. How was that achieved?
It says "Ask Derek Deville About High-Altitude Amateur Rocketry" not "Troll Derek Deville With Incredibly Stupid Questions"
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
What were some of the hardest hurdles you had to overcome to get this working?
Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
Does the phallic shape of a rocket have anything to do with your interest in the science?
That video is insanely cool. Nice work.
Fellow amateur rocketeer here, but I got out of it with the onerous new FAA requirements for class 3 launches. Would you mind describing how you met these requirements, and possibly posting your paperwork/simulations as others have done?
.... what's the solution? You had 4 GPS receivers and none of them tracked your rocket at altitude. Obviously rocket grade GPS exists but with military export controls on them. Is this a spot where DIY's could hack together a GPS module that handles the vibration and acceleration?
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
Do you have an estimate for the time and materials cost, required to design, build, and launch Qu8k?
I looked at your website pictures; clean shop (cleaner than mine, anyway); Curious what type of equipment you used to build it... I see a bridgeport-style knee milling machine, a large unidentifiable lathe with a quick change toolpost. Chinese or classic American heavy iron? Nice smoke off the carbide (carbide, unlike HSS, can be pushed hard enough to make the cutting oil burn without wearing the cutting edge) Looks like all manual machines, no CNC? TIG welding the aluminum or ? Did you CAD it all up or build as you get parts? Is something like this rocket light enough to manhandle around the shop or are their engine cranes involved, or a custom cradle of sorts?
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Is your rocket safe for the environment?
Does it meet CAFE standards?
Are migratory birds injured by your rocket?
Does your rocket run on alternative fuels?
That's my first question.
You're right -- the story at the national level is well-known. I was trying to give him a forum to share his personal experiences, but I didn't want to bias the question by assuming he had any, and ended up not asking the question I really wanted to ask. Self-editing never works.
Let me try again:
How have the BATF (now the BATFE) and other government agencies affected your enjoyment of amateur rocketry since 9/11?
I'd really like to get a sense of the resources (time, machinery, and dollars) went into the project. Obviously your biggest non-monetary cost was labor, but what did you pay out of pocket? How many resources were donated (i.e. specialized machinery)?
AccountKiller
Are there any plans to build a multi-stage version to reach even greater altitudes?
I have seen a few pictures of the boards and circuitry that goes up in your rockets. I was wondering what boards these are and what their functions are? From the looks of it there is also some radio equipment on board, is this for APRS, controls, etc?
In the initial blurb, it lists the engine as a Q motor. For those who don't know, the little engines they sell kids are "A" motors. A "B" motor is twice as big as an "A" motor, likewise a "C" motor is twice as large as a "B" motor. Moving along, a "Q" motor is 65536 times as big as an "A" motor. Question: did you use Ammonium Perchlorate as the fuel for the motor, and if so, did you make it yourself?
How many G's was the rocket subjected to during the launch?
What was the weight of the payload? (i.e. the combined weight of the video cameras). Can we include a small mouse astronaut on the next flight, if we substitute the 2 video cameras with one smaller one?
Would it be possible to mount a second stage on top of the exisiting rocket, say a small Estes model, and launch that from 120,000 feet?
I saw the two PLCCs, a big 84 pin and a little 32 pin flash chip, and thought to myself, "Those sockets don't look like they're rated for the sort of vibration your rocket experiences." Have you or your electronics guru considered learning the tricks of soldering QFPs and SSOPs? It's not hard.
The determined Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language.
121,000 feet is incredibly impressive. I was curious however how high you think you could go? Can you go higher? What would it take to get to 250,000 feet? What is the limiting factor? Time? Money? Materials?
Tripoli or NAR for YOUR sanctioning / certfication body, and in comparison you'd recommend to a noob to start with Tripoli or NAR? Or is the experience with both groups so similar its kinda like miller lite vs bud lite (gotta look at the label to tell them apart)
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Amateurs rocket YOU!
This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
Did you use integrated all in one design software, or a buncha spreadsheets, or a buncha equations in octave/matlab/mathematica, or paper -n- pencil?
In light of above answer, complete this sentence: My project would have been easier for me if the computer/technical/nerdy guys on /. "did this" ...
Inappropriate answer would be "DDOS the BATF" or "launch cowboy neal" I guess I'm expecting software development ideas.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
It's remarkable how a person able to engineer such a great rocket can't properly spell aluminium :^>
FAA regs have been recently updated, here they are.
How do you compare difficulties of making a solid rocket of such caliber with a liquid-propellant one? Do you make your rockets with solid fuel and not liquid because it's easier than liquid or for some other reasons?
How did you test this stuff? both mechanically, electrically, etc? Big homemade wind tunnel, or did you freeze the electronics in dry ice to see what happens, or ?
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Those are some pretty massive rockets, ever work on stuff like model helicopters and RV cars? To get to that level where did you have to start? Did you go to wal-mart and purchase a kit and go from there, or get a blow torch and start creating rocket fins?
"Why, do you realize with a weap..er.. rocket like this, I could - dare I say it? - rule the world?"
.
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
To what accuracy is the thrust nozzle lathed? In the rocketry movie October Sky http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132477/ I recall that the nozzle/motor was the most important build. Which component required the most math/sweat/swearing?
Namaste
Have you any humorous stories where people mistook your rocket for something else?
A UFO, government spyplane, terrorist weapon, etc?
Have you ever considered building something mischievious deliberately intended to make people think of one of the above?
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Can you explain your GPS systems and how you tracked the rocket?
I am building a sounding rocket for a competition and have had problems with tracking and recovering the rocket.
Of all the rocket launch videos I have seen, your had by far the least amount of spin on the way up, no doubt due to precision engineering/machining on your part. Have you ever considered launching a camera with a wide angle lens that could see 360 degrees around rocket and then removing the spin from the resulting video with software?
From the reports, your rocket was not launched from a designated space port, insured, or cleared by the U.S. State Department. (Which all launches above 100,00 feet are supposed to be subject to.) Were you able to get a waiver to break the 100,000 foot limit imposed by the Federal Government? If so, what loops did you have to jump through to get all the powers-that-be happy?
For low-altitude rocketry, passive stabilizing is just fine. When you start getting to the heights your rocket is reaching, it's hard to imagine that this is still the case, yet your diagrams on your website show no active mechanism for keeping the rocket upright, the base fins for stability and that's about it. (Actually, given the wind sheer, it would be almost as bad to be blown horizontally yet remain vertical. To fix that, you'd need full-blown guidance.) To be fair, though, the diagram is hellishly crowded and you may well have kept the details to what would be the most interest/use to the most people.
So, are you using active mechanisms in your current rockets and, if not, are you planning on adopting any in future projects?
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
The frickin laser beam..
Just kidding, really a great piece of work.
My question is:
Did you mix the solid fuel yourself or was that made for you.
How much of the design of your rockets come from trial and error, and how much from more formal principles of rocketry? Or, in other words, how much of the planning comes from deliberate application of physics, ballistics, etc., and how much from past experience?
There are a lot of projects that aim to give rockets an assist at the start. NASA has experimented with ski ramps (and is back to them again) but has also played with turbine-assisted ramjets and variants thereof. ScaledX opted for a hybrid liquid/solid fuel motor, to get the controllability of liquid fuels with the oomph and reduced weight of solid. Have you considered any non-standard design or are you more in the "keep it simple" camp?
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
First, let me say...very, VERY cool.
As for a question, what, if any, notifications, waivers, etc. were required to penetrate controlled airspace in the launch area? At the very least, you would have penetrated Class A airspace (between 18,000MSL and 60,000MSL over the entire contiguous 48 states), so I presume you had to have FAA approval?
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
What was the process you had to follow to get official permission to launch? FCC? NASA? Did you have to do an environmental impact assessment, risk assessment, etc.? Were you required to purchase insurance? I am curious about all the hoops someone has to jump through to do something cool like this.
(Well in fact it's too far away for me, but I'd love to ;-) )
How do you get around the restrictions on civilian GPS. Whilst I'm sure this was taken into account, civilian GPS receivers are limited to speeds quite a bit below the speed achieved, and altitudes of around half of the achieved altitude:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Restrictions_on_civilian_use
"The U.S. Government controls the export of some civilian receivers. All GPS receivers capable of functioning above 18 kilometres (11 mi) altitude and 515 metres per second (1,001 kn) are classified as munitions (weapons) for which U.S. State Department export licenses are required."
3,516 km/h is just over 975 m/sec and you estimate an altitude of more than twice the restricted altitude.
Even if it's a soft fail in the GPS module and it cuts back in when the "out of spec" conditions are no longer experienced, it would still make it difficult to record the maximum altitude if you're 18+km above that which a regular GPS will register.
Specialist Mac support for creative pros, Melbourne
As an old - school rocket hobbyist - one of the good outcomes was furthering an interest in science and engineering. Personally, model rocketry influenced my decision on which university to attend (one of the professors there was heavily invalid with the NAR) and design to study Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering. My question is this - how can we foster the same interest today, given the attacks on rocketry by various well meaning, but misguided, agencies?
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-prize I'm very impressed. Great job. Question? Do you have any comments on an N-Prize sort of launch? Do you feel it is achievable at even one orbit? If so are you part of a team?
Please mod me 1 or troll. It's where the truth is these days, even on Slashdot. Beware the power of moderators everywh
Assuming you are not using a solid fuel booster; have you looked into throttle control so you can throttle back like we saw at the space shuttle launches (throttles down to 64%) to minimize dynamic pressure and throttle back up when it's efficient to do so?
...you could aim a few of those at Wall Street and Liberty Street in NYC??? Be a pretty cool project, big guy...
In all seriousness, how do you (appropriately) balance work, family, and play time? In looking at your website, you seem to do at least two of those (family + play time) very well.
"Diplomacy is something you do until you find a rock." --Richard Pound
What was the AP particle distribution and solids loading you used, as well as approximate percentages of catalysts, surfactants and curatives. Nice flight dude!
Just Anon :)
23 miles is a great feat, congratulations!
I'm a layman but having read about the stroke victim in Antarctica I got curious about the application of aerospace technology to emergency transport, rescue, communications, observations, and whether focus on these issues could help attract funding to civilian engineering teams.
For example, it is apparently 5430km from Wellington, NZ to the Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station, and more like 6000km from Australia.
What would it take (team, cost, time, technology) to build an emergency aid rocket, or rocket-assisted aircraft that could be set on stand-by to deliver for example a medicine, part or surgical tool to the Pole Station?
Since the South Pole is not actually west of anywhere you can't take advantage of the Earth's rotation. Is it even possible to reach the Pole with a suborbital vehicle?
If it was something like a scaled up, navigable version of your current rocket, what kind of stresses, temperatures would the payload experience (would medicine have to be kept warm? would anything mechanical get warped by the vibration/shock?)
Thank you very much for any other thoughts you may have on the subject. I figure you're one of the few guys who could imagine this kind of thing. By the way, you rock!
Where/how did you learn the information needed in order to pull off a feat like this? Related: How long have you been working on these types of projects?
I noticed you said the temperature at its lowest was -32C, and the pressure was only 93 Pascals. Did you need special electronics/cameras in order to operate under these conditions?
China is going to abduct you!