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Flooding Takes Major Hard Drive Plant Offline; Shortages Predicted

snydeq writes "Flooding near Bangkok has taken about 25 percent of the world's hard disk manufacturing capacity offline, InfoWorld reports. 'Disk manufacturing sites in Thailand — notably including the largest Western Digital plant — were shut down due to floods around Bangkok last week and are expected to remain shut for at least several more days. The end to flooding is not in sight, and Western Digital now says it could take five to eight months to bring its plants back online.' Toshiba's Thailand plants have also been affected, as have key disk component suppliers, including Nidec and Hutchinson Technologies."

203 comments

  1. Yeah... by mybeat · · Score: 1

    Try to order some WD RE drives and just hope that they are in stock, or better yet email the seller in advance.

    1. Re:Yeah... by firex726 · · Score: 1

      If anything it'll probably just increase the cost of the drives, I'm sure you'll be able to find them readily available somewhere, though at a higher cost. HDD prices are already increasing due to the increasing scarcity of some rare earth magnets.

    2. Re:Yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So... Seagate ate Maxtor (and now they've gone to crap too). WD is KO for the next "six to eight months" (wtf? really?). Who are we supposed to use now? Hitachi? (I'm serious--I've only purchased WD drives since I had two Maxtors crap out on me).

    3. Re:Yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wd just bought the hitachi business...

    4. Re:Yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hitachi?

      which bought the IBM Deskstar series of drives way-back-when. Remember those? I had 3 (out of 3) which died in less than a year. I won't buy again.

    5. Re:Yeah... by GNious · · Score: 0

      Try to order some WD RE drives

      Why would you? WD are quite clear that they support Windows only, and you'll apparently get craptastic performance on anything free/libre.

    6. Re:Yeah... by mybeat · · Score: 1

      Well,the two drives of three that I ordered will go into my gaming pc (yes windows) and the remaining one will be an os drive for a linux box,wish I knew better.. So what are we left with if both WD and Seagate are out of the question?

    7. Re:Yeah... by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I don't know about what GNious is saying, but I have not had problems with hard drives from WD or Seagate in recent history (80GB + Hard drives). WD and Seagate are the top two as far as I am concerned for hard drives. They are both used heavily in all the work servers, and show a disproportionate number of times in desktop systems from HP and Dell.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    8. Re:Yeah... by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 2

      So... Seagate ate Maxtor (and now they've gone to crap too). WD is KO for the next "six to eight months" (wtf? really?). Who are we supposed to use now? Hitachi? (I'm serious--I've only purchased WD drives since I had two Maxtors crap out on me).

      Luckily, I received two new WD 3TB drives just a couple of weeks ago. Most of our drives are WD, and I have resolved yet again never to buy Seagate. I've had good experience with Samsung as well as with WD.

      The only drives which died on me at home in the last 20 years years were (i) a brand new 20GB Maxtor drive died on its first power-up about 12-14 years ago and was replaced under warranty, the replacement outlasting my use for it, (ii) a several-year-old Seagate 340GB died about 3 years ago while moving house despite not suffering any mechanical shocks, and (iii) a barely 1½-year-old Seagate 2TB which I just removed. The Seagate 2TB was in a pampered location but died suddenly, and its SMART data was covered in lurid red when it was restarted. It claimed to have overheated (the drives above and below it had not), to have too many reported uncorrectable errors, to have reallocated too many sectors, and to have too many uncorrectable sectors. It's past its pathetic warranty period, so I suppose I'll have to replace it (with Samsung if I can't get WD easily).

      Other disks were retired over the years due to inadequate capacity, or given away with the PC containing them, but were in perfect working order the last time I had them.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    9. Re:Yeah... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Sadly Hitachi AND Samsung have BOTH been bought out, so my advice? BUY SAMSUNG DRIVES NOW!!! I've been buying up as many as I can afford and loading up my machines with Samsung drives, the warranty will be covered as part of the buyout and frankly I've never seen a Samsung drive crap out, unlike the now cheap as hell Seagates.

      WD is okay but frankly their quality seems to be going down too, at least from the talks I've had with fellow shop owners. Hitachi drives are also quite good if you can find them, but the best bang for the buck are the Samsung Spinpoint and EcoDrive lines. by shopping around I've been picking up 2Tb EcoDrives for less than $80 and if I'm having a lucky day 1Tb for less than $50. These babies have 32Mb of cache and in my benchmarks kick all but the latest 7200RPM drives while running less than 89 degrees f.

      So my advice is load up on Samsung (and Hitachi if you can find them) while you can before they are gone. Because it looks like in the race to the bottom we are gonna end up with really cheap but REALLY shitty drives. I don't know about you guys but I don't mind paying a little more for a drive that lasts, and I have 20Gb Samsung drives that have been horribly abused (industrial and construction work, literally caked in filth) and still kept right on humming. Hell I like the EcoDrive so much I'm even using it for my boot drive, 1Tb for $39 on sale? Couldn't pass it up and it beat the Seagate 400Gb I had previously in the benches by nearly 40 points!

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    10. Re:Yeah... by afidel · · Score: 1

      Seagate and Hitachi make the only actually reliable HDD's, but they're a LOT more expensive than consumer drives. However even the expensive enterprise class drives have an AFR of ~1.5% so the only solution is RAID (and with modern capacity relative to IOPS RAID10 and RAID6 are the only real options due to extended rebuild times).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    11. Re:Yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? You're buying Western Dataloss?

      Their drives are, and have always been, garbage.

      Yes, Seagate has gotten worse, but they're still FAR better than the "best" Western Dataloss has ever built.

    12. Re:Yeah... by Trogre · · Score: 1

      I agree that RAID5 is a much less sensible option than in the past. For large volumes (>1TB) I'm now favouring RAID10 across >=4 drives, but for anything smaller plain old RAID1 on 3 drives makes more sense to me. The result is this: true 3x redundancy, nearly 3x read speed and nearly 1x write speed.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    13. Re:Yeah... by afidel · · Score: 1

      Which controllers let you do RAID1 across 3 drives? I believe with the HP controllers you can only do paired drives in RAID1 or groups of 2 in RAID10.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    14. Re:Yeah... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      How exactly does the OS make a difference in the performance of a SATA drive?

    15. Re:Yeah... by optimism · · Score: 1

      HDD prices are already increasing due to the increasing scarcity of some rare earth magnets.

      Do you have any reference for this besides the /. article two months ago, which simply parroted the article from some unknown random website?

      I just bought a couple of 2TB external (USB2) hard drives for $80 each, including shipping and cables and wall warts. Six months ago, they cost $100 each without shipping.

      Seems to me, prices are still dropping.

      Perhaps this Thai flood will provide an excuse for price inflation...but I'll believe it when I see it.

    16. Re:Yeah... by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 1

      I had couple of Maxtors of different models go out and they all had the same failing: the flash rom used by the controller apparently is all too temperature sensitive, and it loses data when it gets too hot. Once the the firmware is unrunnable, enter the click of death. I conclude someone there made a poor quality choice in their rom supplier.

      I now directly fan-cool my critical drives, which aren't Maxtors anymore either.

    17. Re:Yeah... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure linux software raid allows it. You don't really need a raid controller for raid 1.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    18. Re:Yeah... by Trogre · · Score: 1

      Software RAID works just fine for RAID 1.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    19. Re:Yeah... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      How exactly does the OS make a difference in the performance of a SATA drive?

      In general, good use of NCQ, elevator optimization, block-alignment quirks lists, etc. can have an impact.

      In this specific case, I dunno what he's suggesting.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    20. Re:Yeah... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      So what are we left with if both WD and Seagate are out of the question?

      Order some of the Hitachis before they're switched over to the lower quality fabs.

      Samsung, I guess. Not as bad, but not great either.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    21. Re:Yeah... by GNious · · Score: 1

      Not sure what are good options these days - I still have my WDs, as I only found out about the No Linux thing when visiting WD's pages to find out why IO through-put would die regularly (every n seconds they come to a full-stop).
      It is supposedly possible to fix my drives by flashing them with a different firmware, but that requires Windows or DOS.

      For OS I'm using SSDs because they generate less noise and heat. Rotating drives are good for size/storage, so I'm surviving.

      For future builds (Contemplating rebuilding home-server), I am considering some disks from Seagate, which are designed for always-on systems. I don't need through-put, so low rotation-speeds are oki, as long as they dont completely stop randomly.

    22. Re:Yeah... by GNious · · Score: 1

      No idea about the details, but going to WD's support pages to find out why my disks can transfer a LOT of data and then suddenly come to a full stop for 2-5 seconds, only to resume transferring data, gave me a pile of posts about this, that it was limited to Linux (or Non-Windows) and that WD was not supporting Linux and didn't want to do anything about it.

      Is pretty fun running a virtual machine off the WDs - every so (quite) often, it freezes completely... ..and yes, I thought the same: How the heck can you manage to create a spec-compliant drive with a severe bias towards a specific OS ??

      Note: Poster below mentions block-alignment quirks - I did note quite a few posts saying that partitioning had to be done in a specific way (partitions sized as a multiple of ) to ensure reasonable performance - never did check if I got that right.

    23. Re:Yeah... by afidel · · Score: 1

      Only if you can live without write cache

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    24. Re:Yeah... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Surely this doesn't have anything to do with the new 4096-byte sectors that replaced the old 512-byte sectors? From what I remember, Linux added support for those drives before everyone else.

    25. Re:Yeah... by GNious · · Score: 1

      Alignment of partitions might not have been a linux-specific issue, but instead common across all OS (from memory).

    26. Re:Yeah... by Trogre · · Score: 1

      Only if you use an ancient operating system. What modern system doesn't allocate a large chunk of available RAM as a disk cache?

      Currently my 8GB workstation is using 3.2GB as disk cache.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    27. Re:Yeah... by afidel · · Score: 1

      That better be all read cache, otherwise the first time you lose power or have a kernel panic you're losing a LOT of data. That's what I was talking about with the need to disable write cache.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    28. Re:Yeah... by kcbnac · · Score: 1

      I was gonna say, who puts RAID in a system and doesn't spend $75 on a basic UPS?

  2. Offshore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I thought with offshoring everything you wouldn't run into these problems.

    1. Re:Offshore by jdgeorge · · Score: 1

      I thought with offshoring everything you wouldn't run into these problems.

      "Offshoring" doesn't make this a problem for people who buy hard drives Using a single source/vendor makes this a problem.

    2. Re:Offshore by postbigbang · · Score: 2

      If it takes this long to bring production back up to schedule after a couple weeks delay, I'd say we're looking at a marketplace price manipulation with a convenient excuse of flooding in Thailand.

      The commodity markets use weather as an excuse to try to boink up prices all of the time. Hey Starbucks-- coffee is down 23%-- are you going to drop your recent price hike? Oh, I thought not.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    3. Re:Offshore by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      If it takes this long to bring production back up to schedule after a couple weeks delay, I'd say we're looking at a marketplace price manipulation with a convenient excuse of flooding in Thailand.

      The commodity markets use weather as an excuse to try to boink up prices all of the time. Hey Starbucks-- coffee is down 23%-- are you going to drop your recent price hike? Oh, I thought not.

      Margins are so tight in the HDD market I don't think they'd get away with it, Seagate would happily take their customers.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    4. Re:Offshore by jhoegl · · Score: 0

      If anything this will be a case study for them to artificially create shortages, much like what the drug manufacturers are doing now.

    5. Re:Offshore by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      If Seagate had such a huge presence in consumer drives, they might be worrisome, but WD and Seagate live in different sales channels, as well as different markets. Go look at a big box computer store these days and tell me about the overlap.

      Drives are OEM'd. If a manufacturer has a single point of failure in their process chain, then they're in deep donuts. While I feel for the employees of the affected factories, I don't believe it's going to cause the crisis predicted.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    6. Re:Offshore by EvanED · · Score: 2

      If it takes this long to bring production back up to schedule after a couple weeks delay,...

      How long the delay is is pretty independent of the time it takes to get up to speed later. If you give me a snow globe I can break it in a couple seconds... it would take you far longer to fix.

      From the second article it sounds like the plants have experienced water damage: "They asked us to speed up draining water from the plants. If it could be done in one to two months, the company expected to then take about four to six months months for repairs."

    7. Re:Offshore by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      If so, then it's a disaster for them. Yet I've seen SE Asian plants go from hills near a rice paddy to full production in less time. Perhaps I'm wrong about the size of the disaster, and if so, my bad. I've also seen lots of PR and disinformation poised at market price manipulation, so I'll retain my skepticism and hope for the best outcome for all.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    8. Re:Offshore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hey Starbucks-- coffee is down 23%-- are you going to drop your recent price hike?

      Starbucks, like any smart company, buys commodity futures. They've already purchased coffee until the end of 2011. They stopped purchasing more futures, betting the price will fall from record highs. A few other retailers have already lowered prices.

    9. Re:Offshore by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Really? Seagate has 44 consumer drives and WD has 144, at least on Newegg. WD has more drives mostly because they have numerous models of same size/speed (green, black, blah)

      Seagate is a decent competitor to WD, but pretty much the only one worth using.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    10. Re:Offshore by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      SKU quantities belie the actual drives that are manufactured and how many of *those* go inside. Hitachi, Samsung, and a bunch of others make drives. Who makes the drives that go inside those cans? Ah-- there's the interesting statistic.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    11. Re:Offshore by Zaiff+Urgulbunger · · Score: 1

      I thought with offshoring everything you wouldn't run into these problems.

      Me thinks they offshored it a bit too much. If they'd just kept it the _dry_ side of the beach then they'd have been fine.

    12. Re:Offshore by mjwx · · Score: 1

      If it takes this long to bring production back up to schedule after a couple weeks delay, I'd say we're looking at a marketplace price manipulation with a convenient excuse of flooding in Thailand.

      The commodity markets use weather as an excuse to try to boink up prices all of the time. Hey Starbucks-- coffee is down 23%-- are you going to drop your recent price hike? Oh, I thought not.

      Here's the thing though, tech components go up and down all the time. About 12 months ago, the purchase price of DVD writers shot up by A$20 to A$50 (a 66% increase), now it's easy to find one for A$30. As supply contracts, prices go up and people stop buying HDD's. When supply beings to grow again, manufacturers will be forced to lower prices to get rid of stock.

      BTW, using Starbucks as an example of good economics or even semi-drinkable coffee is pants on head retarded. Places like Starbucks and McD's have their price points set nationally. Try going to a local cafe where they serve real coffee.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    13. Re:Offshore by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      I do. It's just a visible example of a company not in the oil biz that raised its price based on commodity price increase claims that were mostly bogus. They just need to report a way-cool quarter to Wall Street. As for their coffee.... well..... that's another website.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    14. Re:Offshore by mjwx · · Score: 1

      It's just a visible example of a company not in the oil biz that raised its price based on commodity price increase claims that were mostly bogus.

      I understand this,

      but I cant see how it applies to the tech market. Even with only about 3 players in the HDD market it's still competitive enough that they cannot support to maintain artificially inflated prices.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    15. Re:Offshore by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Looks like someone took the shore part a little too literally...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    16. Re:Offshore by LingNoi · · Score: 1

      The CEO of Toyota is in tears, Toshiba has been taken out, over 200 people are dead and the whole hard drive plant is in 6 foot of water, what the hell made you think that this is an excuse? Fucking asshole.

    17. Re:Offshore by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      CItations regarding oil economics are usually invalid, because the oil companies live in an alternate universe where supply and demand are mirages. It's not capitalism, it's poker.

      There are more than three players in the HD market; this is my point--> an artificial shortage to drive prices up in a razor-thin-margin industry is common practice; it happens with memory chips frequently, tho less so than before (lots of litigation has helped). In this case, market manipulation may not be in the offing, as subsequent investigations reveal more details. It's a sad situation there. Ugly, in fact.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    18. Re:Offshore by mjwx · · Score: 1

      CItations regarding oil economics are usually invalid, because the oil companies live in an alternate universe where supply and demand are mirages. It's not capitalism, it's poker.

      There are more than three players in the HD market; this is my point--> an artificial shortage to drive prices up in a razor-thin-margin industry is common practice; it happens with memory chips frequently, tho less so than before (lots of litigation has helped). In this case, market manipulation may not be in the offing, as subsequent investigations reveal more details. It's a sad situation there. Ugly, in fact.

      As I said before,

      I dont see any connection between hard drives and oil economics, I dont disagree with your definition of it, but oil economics does not apply to the tech market.

      Prices in tech go up and down all the time according to supply and demand. If the supply of hard drives decreases then prices go up, but when the supply increases again, prices go down.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  3. The Dark Side of Specialization: by ThosLives · · Score: 2

    you're SOL when the specialist is out of commission.

    It's sort of fascinating how, despite all our technology, we still suffer from such problems. It seems we may have crossed beyond the point where gained efficiency from specialization has more total cost than slightly less efficient, more flexible (less specialized) industries. In this case the "specialist" is geographical rather than talent, but I think the concept applies well enough.

    --
    "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    1. Re:The Dark Side of Specialization: by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      > It's sort of fascinating how, despite all our technology, we still suffer from such problems.

      I think it's inevitable. Commodity items are highly competitive and have razor thin margins. The manufacturing location tends to be the lowest cost location on earth, and the problem with very low cost locations is that there is sometimes a risk involved in doing business there.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    2. Re:The Dark Side of Specialization: by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that high cost locations don't suffer from environmental problems?

    3. Re:The Dark Side of Specialization: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but some low cost locations probably do!

    4. Re:The Dark Side of Specialization: by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      It's not despite our technology, it's because of our technology. Putting all your eggs in one basket is rewarded in tech business. The downside is that one bad event can wipe out the globe's supply of one resource.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    5. Re:The Dark Side of Specialization: by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Nope, I'm saying that there are reasons why low cost locations are low cost. It's a tendency, not all-or-nothing.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  4. Old News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    El Reg reported this four days ago. No, wait, they reported it six days ago.

  5. Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by BoRegardless · · Score: 2

    Giant planning failure!

    I can't wait to hear who decided to put the largest HD assembly operation in a flood plain where Asian Monsoons routinely flood out large areas every year.

    It is not like this is unexpected.

    Restart the plant and...it happens next year or the year thereafter.

    1. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by arkanjuca · · Score: 1

      Obviously it worked for a good time, but they didn't took in the factor that rain volumes can suffer some spikes and eventually flood places from 50 to 50 years. You don't see catrinas every year, but they do happen at times.

    2. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Unfortunately these kinds of plants consume massive amounts of water so they need to be in areas where these things happen.
      If its not floods its tornados, earthquakes, volcanos or wars.

      Nowhere is safe so most businesses just go with where is cheap.

      Dont worry, insurance will cover some of the losses, massive price increases until long after supply has resumed will ensure
      the shareholders dont suffer.

    3. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by hedwards · · Score: 1

      This year has been the worst in half a century, if you're planning for events that infrequent you're going to have a challenge finding anywhere to build your production facilities.

    4. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      By your logic we should abandon the Gulf Coast, Tornado Alley, California, and Texas.

    5. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strangely enough, there is at least one prominent geologist that thinks we should stop allowing people to live on the eastern seaboard of the US for precisely that reason.

    6. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by Tomato42 · · Score: 2

      Because whole Europe (including Iceland) suffers from Monsoons and Tornadoes every year. Not to mention the monthly magnitude 9.0 earthquake... We so get used to catastrophes, that we missed the last week's Extinction Event meteorite that fell just outside Berlin, thankfully it landed on a parked 5 star NCAP car so everything played quite well.

    7. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      By your logic we should abandon the Gulf Coast, Tornado Alley, California, and Texas.

      Well, Texas anyway. Who'd want to live there?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    8. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Abandon, no. But if somebody rebuilds on the site of a natural disaster, their insurance should increase (A LOT), as a disincentive to keep rebuilding somewhere that nature obviously wants to obliterate.

    9. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by dschl · · Score: 1

      In many places, you cannot legally build on floodplain.

      In North America, 50 years is pretty short for design standards. Bridges will normally be built for flood events in excess of 100 years. Laws where I live restrict construction inside a 200 year floodplain.

      --
      Slashdot - the place where you can look like a genius by restating the obvious
    10. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it was cheap land, what do you expect?

      What?

      You're assuming folks who plan facilities for companies pay attention to things like that?

      If this was the case, California would not be home to so many US critical industries.

    11. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      Actually, statistically speaking, it should go down. If the great flood/hurricane/earthquake only happens once every 100 years, now that it has happened, you are good for another 100 or so years :P We should increase the rates of people that haven't had their 100 year disaster yet cause they are next...

    12. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

      I think the parent was talking more about the people living near the Mississippi River that get flooded every 10 years or so (if not more often). There are large areas of the US that flood on a regular basis, and people go and rebuild there.

      --
      Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
    13. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Giant planning failure!

      I can't wait to hear who decided to put the largest HD assembly operation in a flood plain where Asian Monsoons routinely flood out large areas every year.

      It is not like this is unexpected.

      Restart the plant and...it happens next year or the year thereafter.

      Actually its not a flood plain. The river system the Chao Phraya river is connected to runs from Laos and Myanmar to the gulf south of Bangkok and this is the worst rain Thailand has seen in decades, over 300 Thais have been killed in the floods which started in July (it's not October).

      It's like blaming the city planners that New Orleans was not hurricane proof.

      Put simply, this does not happen once a year.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    14. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by Kittenman · · Score: 1

      In many places, you cannot legally build on floodplain.

      I think you can if you're prepared to pay the penalty. They're dark green on the map. And volcanoes are those little triangles.

      --
      "The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
    15. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by optimism · · Score: 1

      It's like blaming the city planners that New Orleans was not hurricane proof.

      I hate to tell you...but actually...the New Orleans city planners were to blame.

      For roughly the first 200 years of its existence, New Orleans was built on the high ground. Then in the 20th century, they started pumping out the swamps to create large amounts of "real estate" below sea level.

      I know...the Dutch have done this very successfully...but the Dutch did not try to reclaim swamps on the delta of a massive river that is constantly trying to find a new path.

      For more than 50 years, anyone with half a clue knew that the flooding and large-scale destruction of New Orleans was inevitable. Katrina just happened to be the storm that did it. But it was absolutely no surprise. And the blame lays squarely on the shoulders of the city planners, for creating real estate that they ~knew~ could never be defended.

    16. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by Wolfrider · · Score: 1

      --That made me ROTFLMAO, so you get one in return ;-)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghzswH4S0C0&list=FL3Zsx4XG4hkee3Z4hLQE3NQ&index=1

      --
      .
      == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
    17. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a result of a giant planning failure but not on the part of the mfgrs. I live in the area, due to graft at a level that no westerner could comprehend illegal logging, and construction has risen over the past few years add to that the fact that monies that should have gone to flood prevention and water management were spent on things like planes that can't fly, cctv camera's that don't function etc. then toss in governmental ineptitude (e.g. they put boats on the river tied to bridges so that they could "push" the water away) and you have this nightmare. Summary: there are many factors here other than weather and it would surprise if these plants remain key outlets. Also unlikely that they return permanently to full production.

    18. Re:Fascinating Risk Analysis Decision by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I can't wait to hear who decided to put the largest HD assembly operation in a flood plain where Asian Monsoons routinely flood out large areas every year.

      Maybe it was GE. That would at least be consistent.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  6. Who cares? We have the cloud to save us! by Snotman · · Score: 1

    Need more be said. Hard drives are so last year.

    1. Re:Who cares? We have the cloud to save us! by Tweezak · · Score: 1

      And cloud servers don't use hard drives?

    2. Re:Who cares? We have the cloud to save us! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the joke.
      -Rainier Wolfcastle

    3. Re:Who cares? We have the cloud to save us! by Ruie · · Score: 5, Funny

      And cloud servers don't use hard drives?

      No, they just send data back and forth, using the Internet as a giant delay line.

    4. Re:Who cares? We have the cloud to save us! by volsung · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have often wondered what the total amount of temporary packet storage in the world's routers is.... How much data can actually be in transit at any given time?

    5. Re:Who cares? We have the cloud to save us! by antdude · · Score: 1

      Uh, cloud uses HDDs too. ;)

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    6. Re:Who cares? We have the cloud to save us! by Snotman · · Score: 1

      I am making fun of all the "cloud" as panacea advertising that is so prevalent.

    7. Re:Who cares? We have the cloud to save us! by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you dare suggest we use router/switch buffers as "cloud storage", I'm going to stab you over IP.

    8. Re:Who cares? We have the cloud to save us! by Hatta · · Score: 2

      I remember reading that you could use Shannon's juggling theorem to calculate how much data is stored on the wire at any given time. Instead of balls, hands, and flight time, you're looking at packets, routers, and latency, but the calculation is pretty much the same.

      Wish I could find that article.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    9. Re:Who cares? We have the cloud to save us! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nooo, clouds are made of magic! There is an infinite amount of storage in The Cloud. You can do anything with The Cloud. The Cloud comes with HTML5. The Cloud is the ultimate solution to everything and its cousin. You can connect everything to everything with The Cloud. The Cloud makes your smartphone smarter, you know it makes sense. Everyone's life will soon be powered by The Cloud. Your mother-in-law is in The Cloud. The entire universe can sit in The Cloud. And even a cloud can be hosted in The Cloud. You won't even need a computer any more, you just plug your head in your chair and get connected directly to The Cloud. We may already live inside The Cloud. The Cloud is The Cloud is The Cloud.

    10. Re:Who cares? We have the cloud to save us! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Are you posting from the Hilbert Hotel?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    11. Re:Who cares? We have the cloud to save us! by Ruie · · Score: 1

      Are you posting from the Hilbert Hotel?

      No, but we'll use this principle once quantum computers get better ;)

  7. Gol dern it! by Tsingi · · Score: 1

    I tole 'em they shudna moved them faktrees outa tornader alley.

    1. Re:Gol dern it! by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      I tole 'em they shudna moved them faktrees outa tornader alley.

      We have some lovely land available, on top of the Hayward Fault. It usually just creeps along, so if they build the factory on wheels it would be OK %)

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    2. Re:Gol dern it! by Tsingi · · Score: 1

      We have some lovely land available, on top of the Hayward Fault. It usually just creeps along, so if they build the factory on wheels it would be OK %)

      Isn't that where they put the nuclear reactors?

    3. Re:Gol dern it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have some lovely land available, on top of the Hayward Fault. It usually just creeps along, so if they build the factory on wheels it would be OK %)

      Isn't that where they put the nuclear reactors?

      You're thinking of the (related) Calaveras Fault, well off on the east side of the hills. There's a small research reactor near San Ramon. Further away from that fault, in Pleasanton, is another one that is the only part of the Vallecitos nuclear center still in operation -- the others are mothballed.

      The Hayward runs along the east side of the inner Bay Area. UC, Berkeley, whose eastern border (and, infamously, football stadium) are about at the Hayward Fault, used to have a small training and research reactor called a TRIGA, but it was removed 20 years ago.

      Fifty-odd years ago, Pacific Gas and Electric had a sweeping vision of California's nuclear future, including a reactor on the coast at Bodega Head, right on the San Andreas. That may seem like kind of a batty idea now, but at the time it was a divisive issue even within the environmental movement. It never got further than digging a hole (unlike their small early-days power reactor, now mothballed, up the coast on Humboldt Bay, and a much bigger plant down the coast near San Luis Obispo -- both sites with seismic issues of their own).

      So the odds of Silicon Valley being laid low by a nuclear accident seem minimal. The level of plain old basic earthquake preparedness at high-tech companies -- data backup offsite, supplies on hand, business continuity and employee communication plans, even the integrity of the building itself -- differs quite a bit from one firm to another, and I suspect that in many cases it is pretty minimal, especially at smaller and/or startup companies. People do get fatalistic about The Big One (or just decide to gamble on the small risk), but we're much more likely to suffer The Medium One, and the preparedness needed to suffer less and recover faster is correspondingly more modest.

      Anyway, getting back to the original subject, one of the issues that manufacturers confront all the time in our globalized world is that supply chains are long and complex and sometimes hard to trace (pick one or more); a seemingly local disaster (or even something more on the order of an industrial accident in just the wrong place) occurring on the other side of the world can deprive you, and others, of some part or process.

      Hopefully at least the human suffering that comes along with floods can be, and will be, relieved in some way...

        --Joe

    4. Re:Gol dern it! by Velox_SwiftFox · · Score: 1

      Simple fact is that the Pacific plate edge is where the cooling water is. Too bad.

      I
      could tell you why
      the ocean's always near the shore,

  8. lot of record breaking floods lately by Medievalist · · Score: 2, Funny

    Good thing global climate change is just a liberal hoax, or we'd be in real trouble!

    1. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Good thing global climate change is just a liberal hoax, or we'd be in real trouble!

      But not so long ago we had to be scared of the Global Climate Warming Change Monster because it was going to cause droughts, not floods. It only changed to causing floods after floods started hitting the news.

    2. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by pjabardo · · Score: 1

      It is not possible to determine if an individual flood is the result of global warming or not. Floods have always happened and will continue to happen. But global warming tends to produce more floods *and* more droughts, often in different regions but sometimes in the same place. This is has been know for a while and nothing has changed after "floods started hitting the news".

    3. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Your ignorance is showing. What people debate is whether or not humans are having a measurable impact on climate change.

      People generally agree that the global climate changes, that's not much of a question.

    4. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But global warming tends to produce more floods *and* more droughts

      I love that reasoning. It essentially makes global warming impossible to disprove or challenge. There is no evidence that can be used to argue against it. Have a drought? That's global warming. Have a flood? That's global warming. Have a heat wave? Global warming. Have a blizzard? Global warming. Have normal weather? Well, global warming only effects things in the LONG TERM, see...

      There is no trend or pattern sufficient to disprove, or even challenge it. That sounds more like a religion than science to me. You know, a real scientific theory is supposed to be something you could actually *disprove* with the right evidence (like Evolution, not like Creationism).

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    5. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Attaching significance to one or more floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, etc just feeds the doubt machine. It turns people off because they aren't inclined to believe in climate change. Instead people need to be educated, not humiliated when they don't understand (or want to) the science behind climate change. When you take the self-righteous moral high ground and use a poor attempt at sarcasm, you also just allow people to tune you out. Instead of acting like one of the obnoxious fundamentalists, attempt to learn why people don't understand, and refute it with facts.

      I realize this is difficult for leftists and neocons to understand. It's probably why you don't have any friends either.

    6. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by WillDraven · · Score: 1

      I don't think anybody ever said climate change was going to stop water from evaporating at all. If one place that used to get a lot of rain isn't anymore, that means that the rain is going to be falling somewhere else, which can cause floods.

      Deniers seem to think that if the entire world doesn't suffer from the exact same disasters then that obviously means that scientists are either stupid or lying because they hate America or something.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    7. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      Of course you could disprove it. It just takes more than one example to do it. We've been collecting data that suggests global warming for 150 years, if you want to disprove global warming you'd need to gather a similarly sized collection of data that did not agree with the theory.

    8. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This would be SOOOOOOOO funny if 28% of the US voting populace (i.e. the Tea Party) wasn't taking you seriously. They really don't see the sarcasm. That's scary. Right now, 7/9 republican candidates for president in 2012 say either "the science isn't settled" or "it's a liberal hoax" and they're not grinning or holding back laughter when they say it. They genuinely believe this isn't an issue.

      By the way, for those who might not realize it, the following statements ARE sarcasm:

      Not to mention, one of the remaining candidates, the interweb's favorite son (despite him taking multiple stances that are anti-internet) Ron Paul has stated repeatedly that, even though he believes in Global Warming/Climate Change, he believes the US is no more to blame than any other nation. Sure, US citizens operate over 80% of the motor vehicles on the face of the planet on US soil, despite being only around 7% of the total world population, but of course, we're not 80%, 70%, or even 40% to blame for the problem!

      This is where the sarcasm ends, guys. Just in case that wasn't obvious to you. Yes, I mean you, Tea Party Republicans.

      So while I applaud your witty comment (and would gladly mod it up if I was willing to register...) I feel like it's worth mentioning that this is only funny in context. In the real world, crazy, insane, batshit stupid people are trying their dead level best to take over control of the government which is responsible for the single largest share of the pollution that's causing these sorts of disasters. In another 50 or 100 years, when the world has become an uninhabitable wasteland and 20 humans barely escape to the moon to wait out while the world tears itself apart and reforges itself for the next 10 millenniums, they're not going to find this humorous at all.

    9. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Chirs · · Score: 1

      I love that reasoning. It essentially makes global warming impossible to disprove or challenge. There is no evidence that can be used to argue against it.

      Not so. It's fairly straightforward to look for more "extreme" weather--you simply compare the actual weather against the "average". If the differences increase over time, there's your effect.

    10. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Floods have always been common. That is why man has been building dams, dykes, causeways, aqueducts and and all manner of other water control systems for thousands of years.

    11. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by SilverJets · · Score: 1

      Good thing cities built on a river delta never flood or we'd be in....oh...wait a minute.

    12. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Jeng · · Score: 1

      I think that countries that have huge clouds of smog are probably polluting just a tad bit more than we are. Such as China.

      We might consume more energy than any other country on earth, but we do currently attempt to do it cleanly.

      --
      Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
    13. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      It's fairly straightforward to look for more "extreme" weather--you simply compare the actual weather against the "average".
      Even the USGS cautions that we are experiencing more or less the same number and severity of geological events. However, the number of reporting stations and the spread of people to other areas make it more likely that an event will affect people and thus be noted or reported upon.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    14. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      global warming tends to produce more floods *and* more droughts, often in different regions but sometimes in the same place.
      Or FEWER floods and droughts, or about the same number of floods and droughts.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    15. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with this logic is that we have about 100 years of reliable data in Europe and North America. In the rest of the world we have much less. That is nothing in the scheme of climate cycles.

    16. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Coren22 · · Score: 2

      We've also been exiting an Ice Age for 10,000 years...

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    17. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Funk_dat69 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the record breaking droughts in Texas and the SW.

      The data does suggest a global warming trend, but some weather shifts are normal. Just because floods wiped out *your* house this year doesn't mean the world is ending and it's all Fox News fault. In this case, the Pacific has been cooler than normal, which changes the jet streams. Which pushes moisture in the air in different ways. It's happened before and will happen again.
      Just don't tell that to the dinosaurs.

      --
      FUNK!
    18. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by pjabardo · · Score: 1

      Climate and weather are not the same thing. A flood, or storm does not characterize the climate. You can come up with some parameter that correlates with climate, mean annual temperature of the planet for instance. This is a number that doesn't say anything about floods, droughts, snowstorms during the year. Not only that, we can not measure this number exactly, we can only estimate it.

      Now, is this number relevant? Not for local weather. Not even for a few years. It can go down or up whether there is global warming, global cooling or nothing at all. But over a long period of time (we are talking decades here) this number is useful to detect changes in climate. What are the consequences of those changes? This single parameter doesn't say but models suggest a few outcomes.

      The problem is more complicated than that because even *if* some *new* equilibrium could be reached, that is going to take and, probably, until this new equilibrium is reached, extreme weather conditions could be more common whatever the new equilibrium conditions are (if we can talk about equilibrium conditions).

      If your feet are at 0 degrees and your head at 200 degrees, your mean temperature is 100 degrees, but it isn't pleasant in any way.

    19. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by LetterRip · · Score: 1

      But not so long ago we had to be scared of the Global Climate Warming Change Monster because it was going to cause droughts, not floods. It only changed to causing floods after floods started hitting the news.

      Actually flooding and droughts have been expected from the beginning. There is greater total energy which results in greater evaporation both over land and over ocean. Thus those areas that recieve modest rain fall historically end up with higher rates of evaporation leading to more frequent droughts, and those areas that have high rain fall historically get more frequent and stronger rains leading to more flooding.

      The only ones who thought it was just droughts that would happen had little or no understanding of the science.

    20. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by LetterRip · · Score: 1

      I love that reasoning. It essentially makes global warming impossible to disprove or challenge. There is no evidence that can be used to argue against it. Have a drought? That's global warming. Have a flood? That's global warming. Have a heat wave? Global warming. Have a blizzard? Global warming. Have normal weather? Well, global warming only effects things in the LONG TERM, see...

      It increases intensity and frequency of both droughts and floods - it is divergence from 'moderate' climate that is what you are looking for.

      If you have a basic understanding of physics it should be obvious that increased warmth would cause more floods and droughts - increased total temperature causes faster evaporation both over land and ocean - for those areas where the clouds tend to not drift (and hence low rain fall historically) this will lead to more droughts; for areas of historical high rain fall - the greater ocean evaporation leads to more rain and hence more flooding.

    21. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by operagost · · Score: 1

      There is a false vividness to every weather event now due to AGW sensationalism.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    22. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by operagost · · Score: 1

      So what you're telling us is that global warming causes more weather.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    23. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by operagost · · Score: 0

      Seeing hundreds of pictures of misplaced temperature monitors (by air conditioners, over asphalt, on rooftops) removed most of my confidence in that climate data.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    24. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      No I personally think that it is being used as an excuse to leech money and frankly it doesn't matter WHAT the climate data says because as far as those running the AGW show are concerned its cash in time baby yeah!

      For example Rev Al Gore, who has a house with an indoor basketball court and drives a fleet of SUVs is set to become a carbon billionaire, the ones who cooked up credit default swaps, aka economy killers? Yeah guess whose writing the rules for the carbon market? Those who are on the AGW bandwagon might want to watch this video to see how EASY it is to game the system. And it WILL be gamed my friend, billions are at stake!

      Now watch how quickly I disappear thanks to mods by those that follow the AGW religion. For those that make fun of believers in a sky bully they certainly don't like having any of their "Gods" defamed, do they? Even though I have provided links to the evidence right there for them to see. Here is the truth of AGW: That frankly IT DOESN'T MATTER what the data says, because the leeches and vampires at the top 1% of the heap have ALREADY FIGURED OUT HOW TO PROFIT MASSIVELY so that in the end carbon will NOT go down, it'll just get moved on the books, the same way they moved money from YOUR pockets to THEIRS during the last "crisis". And folks wonder why so many don't support AGW? Could it be that the pigs have already lined up to take a chunk of your wallet while filling their sacks with gold?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    25. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by danlip · · Score: 1

      Global warming is trivial to prove or disprove - you just measure the surface temperatures all over the world and average it, and we already have plenty of data to show the trend. Showing it is anthropomorphic is harder, but there is a lot of evidence.

      What you are talking about is whether or not dramatic weather events are related to global warming. That is much harder to prove/disprove, and almost anyone making such a claim is not being scientific. And over the long term it can be proven/disproven, but by then it may be too late.

      But there is nothing at all wrong with the reasoning that it could cause both increased flooding and increased droughts. You just have to look at the long term trends.

    26. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      No, the end of the last glacial period started about 20,000 years ago and ended about 10,000 years ago. Since the Holocene optimum about 8,000 years ago temperatures in general have slowly been declining.

    27. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by desdinova+216 · · Score: 1

      I think that's the point that some are trying to make is that there is not conclusive evidence that the climate changes is not due to natural cycles since accurate weather records have only been kept for a little over 100 years

    28. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      And you think climate scientists are too stupid to take those factors into account. The effects of those things has been studied and compensated for.

    29. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      The fact that global warming has increased the level of water vapor in the atmosphere by about 4% since the 1960's means that there is more water to produce heavier rainfall which would produce larger floods. Global climate is the base on which weather occurs and global warming/climate change changes that base.

    30. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Zironic · · Score: 1

      That's a really funny video.

      Summary:
      Cap and Trade is bad because of X, instead we should use a better solution which is.... Cap and Trade!

      It's a really weird way of saying that Cap and Trade is the only viable solution for pollution reduction, but the proposed implementation is corrupt and ineffective (since it neither caps, nor properly trades).

    31. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you knew what scientific theory was you would know that the word "prove" should NEVER be used. A theory is a very broad hypothesis that has huge amounts of evidence to support it. So much so that we make an assumption that it is fact. It is the first thing you learn in science, nothing is ever "proven". Human induced global warming/ climate change is a theory that has massive amounts of evidence to support it and can therefore be assumed to be fact.

      As the earth warms it causes droughts, the water is evaporated and is deposited somewhere else- often resulting in a flood. If we don't do something about climate change URGENTLY, the definition of "normal" weather will have to change and if someone is not affected by some sort of extreme weather in the next few years they will have to consider themselves lucky. Not everywhere will have extreme weather all the time.

    32. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Got a source for that? Only papers published in respected scientific journals by recognised geologists, rather than thinktanks, please.

      You remind me of the guy who argued with the local meteorologists that there was no ten year cycle for my country, that it was made up and we have good summers based on bad winters.

    33. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it causes different weather.

    34. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Read the first paragraph:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

      We are still in an ice age based on the definition of ice age.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    35. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Medievalist · · Score: 1

      ...since accurate weather records have only been kept for a little over 100 years...

      Why do you say that? Where did you hear this? It's not true. We have plenty of records older than that. It's true we only have 100 years of direct carbon dioxide measurements, but we have lots of accurate weather records going back to the 1500s and earlier.

      None of that really matters of course. What matters is whether you think it's a good idea to crap in your own breakfast cereal every morning. If you think that's a good idea, you are pro-pollution. If you are smart enough to figure out that eventually the bowl will fill up, you ought to be anti-pollution. "Global warming", as a political issue, is just a sideshow for chuckleheads and know-nothings, to keep people distracted from the obvious foolishness of converting valuable, limited petroleum and coal resources into global air pollution.

    36. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by tmarsh86 · · Score: 1

      Apparently, you didn't bother to read that Holocene optimum link since it says right near the top... "This warm period was followed by a gradual decline until about two millennia ago."

    37. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Medievalist · · Score: 1

      There is a false vividness to every weather event now due to AGW sensationalism.

      Good point, but I would say "due to media sensationalism" myself.

      If they yammer incessantly about the weather, they won't have to tackle anything controversial - like the collapse of the petrodollar, or increasing illiteracy and anti-immigrationism in western countries, or the death spiral of public education in the USA, or anything that might have more than one valid interpretation. Weather and "celebrities" can substitute handily for news; it's current, and won't offend any corporate sponsors.

      Bread and circuses! Now with 4% less bread!

    38. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      That's precisely why I said "the end of the last glacial period" rather than "the end of the last ice age". We are in an interglacial period of the current ice age right now.

    39. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      You are right, it does say that. But at the same time the temperature graph doesn't show any increase in temperatures during the last two millennia until the recent sharp increase.

    40. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by tmarsh86 · · Score: 1

      Except in areas where it's the opposite and there's only drought.

    41. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by operagost · · Score: 1
      Here's the GP post, since the anti-truth mods killed it:

      Seeing hundreds of pictures of misplaced temperature monitors (by air conditioners, over asphalt, on rooftops) removed most of my confidence in that climate data.

      Isn't it better to get accurate data in the first place? And how do you know they're compensating? After all, there are rules in place for how to install these stations, and they aren't being followed. This would indicate that the people receiving the data don't know this, or they would either discard the data or have the problem corrected.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    42. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by desdinova+216 · · Score: 1

      I think the point I was trying to make is that 100's of years is an extremely short period in geologic terms

    43. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      You deal with the data you've got. Climate scientists in general have little power to specify where weather stations are placed. The other thing to keep in mind is that climate science is more interested in how temperatures change over time, not so much what the absolute temperature is. So even if a station is placed somewhere where the reading is affected by non-weather influences it may still accurately reflect how temperature is changing over time.

    44. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Water vapor is not evenly distributed through the atmosphere which means there can still be droughts too.

    45. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good thing global climate change is just a liberal hoax, or we'd be in real trouble!

      Yeah there was never any bad weather before man started using fossil fuels...

    46. Re:lot of record breaking floods lately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah there was never any bad weather before man started using fossil fuels...

      Librul nonsense! Fossil fuels can be burned infinitely with no harm to anything whatsoever.

      You can prove this for yourself - just start your car up, wrap your lips around the exhaust pipe and breathe freely. See? Burning fossil fuels is harmless!

  9. Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. by scottbomb · · Score: 0

    Dumbasses.

    1. Re:Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. by scottbomb · · Score: 0

      Read the article. Seagate: 60% of their manufacturing. Toshiba: 50%. Over half of their business at the mercy of the weather in Thailand. Sounds like a pretty stupid decision to me.

      Dumbass.

    2. Re:Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. by SleazyRidr · · Score: 0

      So 50 or 60% equals all now?

    3. Re:Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. by nedlohs · · Score: 0

      60% is not all, dumbass.

    4. Re:Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      No kidding, maybe they should keep other plants open for instances like this. Why there is a Seagate plant just about 10 miles from me that they pretty much stopped production at. Maybe they should ramp production back over there. The upside is that the people in this area will once again be able to afford hard drives.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  10. Boost for SSDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shortages usually mean higher prices. And if spinning platters become more expensive, more people will turn to solid state instead.

    Seems like WD and mother nature just handed the flash memory makers a big win.

    1. Re:Boost for SSDs by 0123456 · · Score: 2

      Shortages usually mean higher prices. And if spinning platters become more expensive, more people will turn to solid state instead.

      Yeah, prices only have to go up about a factor of a hundred and that 3TB SSD will finally be competitive with my 3TB HDD.

    2. Re:Boost for SSDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It won't be competitive for 3TB pr0n storage disks but might be for 100GB or 200GB laptop disks 2.5" disks.

    3. Re:Boost for SSDs by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      For those needing bulk storage it would take a MASSIVE rise in the cost of HDDs to make SSDs price competitive.

      More interesting is the cost comparison between a basic SSD and a basic HDD. IMO the smallest drive you can reasonablly put in a new computer is arround 60GB, go much lower than that and a lot of users will be running out of disk space but at 60GB most people other than gamers, video hoarders and a few other special classes will be quite happy. That will set you back $69 at current prices. A basic HDD will currently set you back $41 (prices from newegg and rounded to nearest dollar).

      So the price of a basic HDD would only have to double for it to become attractive for those who don't have futures contracts (e.g. small whitebox builders) to put SSDs into low end boxes (assuming the SSD vendors have the extra capacity to cope without raising the price too much).

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  11. Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by RobinEggs · · Score: 1

    Great. Another industry that can blame massive price increases on some sort of natural disaster or political instability, and conveniently leave prices there when the danger has passed.

    How long do you think it will take for prices to come back down once all of these plants are repaired or replaced? Will they ever come down? Southeast asian semi-conductor manufacturing is already rife with price-fixing and other grossly anti-competitive practices. Throw in this flooding which, albeit temporarily, provides a real excuse for some short supply and weakened competition and I bet we'll never hear the end of it.

    1. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Call me when you refuse a raise or bonus at work and tell your boss you'd rather work at your old salary. Prices are sticky, it's a fact of life. You are just as guilty as every other human on the planet.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Baloroth · · Score: 1

      You really think HDD manufacturers can afford to raise and keep raised prices with SSD makers breathing down their necks? Yeah, I just don't see that happening. The only advantage HDD makers have now is the price/byte ratio is so low for them. They raise that, and they will die even faster than they are now.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    3. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Did all manufacturers get hit by the flood? If not, lawsuits of price fixing might follow if they all start to increase prices for no reason.

    4. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who's gonna pay for the lost of money while the plants are offline if not the customers. These business need to recoup the losses so those raised prices are rarely decreased after a major event. Gradual price reduction does happen (provided enough competition) but usually too slow for anyone to notice. New products will generally replaced the highly priced products eventually anyways before loss is recouped. 5 to 8 months downtime is a hugh loss for a manufacturing plant where they live on razor thin margins. Not to mention ongoing costs and repair costs they have to pay and deal with their current workers which no longer has a place to work at (a blow if they lose current workforce training and expertise, basically experience, but a high cost to keep them as few can live without a job for that time frame).

    5. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Horrible analogy. Think overtime... sometimes, certain situations occur where you temporarily get paid more. The next week when you don't go over time, you don't get to keep your higher rate...

    6. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by demonbug · · Score: 3, Informative

      Did all manufacturers get hit by the flood? If not, lawsuits of price fixing might follow if they all start to increase prices for no reason.

      Lol. You do realize that a 25% reduction in output means the same demand must be met by fewer manufacturers, right? When demand remains constant and supply suddenly decreases, the natural market reaction is a price increase until demand decreases to match supply (or until supply recovers).

      Sure, the other manufacturers may be able to increase supply somewhat to counter this, but prices are bound to increase in the short term. Not due to price fixing, but due to normal market forces.

    7. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 1

      But they can all increase prices in response to increased demand with no problem. As long as they don't all appear to do so in a coordinated way.

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
    8. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      No that's not true. Gas is still selling at $3.50 a gallon (or whatever the price is in your neighborhood). The price will only come down when people actually stop buying it, not when people just complain about it.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    9. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Dwedit · · Score: 1

      When SSDs get to $80 for 2TB, let me know. They are nowhere near that price/byte ratio.

    10. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Call me when you refuse a raise or bonus at work and tell your boss you'd rather work at your old salary. Prices are sticky, it's a fact of life. You are just as guilty as every other human on the planet.

      What's your number? I just tried to turn down 4 hours of time and a half pay, but the company wouldn't let me (something about some Law somewhere).

    11. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by bws111 · · Score: 1

      Raising prices because you can (ie there is more demand than supply) is not price fixing, no matter how many manufacturers do it. Price fixing generally happens when supply is greater than demand, and the 'competitors' agree not to compete, in order to keep the prices high. A flood wiping out 25% of production is not likely to lead to an oversupply situation, so put your conspiracy theories away.

    12. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by CheshireDragon · · Score: 1

      Not all RAM manufacturers were hit by the earthquake ages ago, but that didn't stop RAM prices from going up.

      --
      "That's right...I said it."
    13. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can even appear to do it in a coordinated way in the US (parallel conduct dotrine) . . .they just can't leave any proof that they conspired to do it. What is even funnier, post Bell Atlantic Corp. v. Twombleyall cases will be dismissed before you can get to discovery to discover proof of communication.

    14. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by CheshireDragon · · Score: 1

      and I thought the car analogy was bad...

      --
      "That's right...I said it."
    15. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by arcade · · Score: 1

      Ye of little history.

      This is not the first time a hardware manufacturer has been hit by a natural calamity. Prices go up for a while, then they come down.

      Earthquakes, fires, floods. They've all happened before in Asia. Prices always come down again after a relatively short while.

      --
      "Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
    16. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by citylivin · · Score: 1

      "Gas is still selling at $3.50 a gallon (or whatever the price is in your neighborhood). The price will only come down when people actually stop buying it, not when people just complain about it."

      LOL. gas prices will not come down, hahahaha! The only reason gas prices briefly came down was because of the global depression which we entered in 2008, which briefly curtailed all the speculation in the futures market. People will never stop buying gasoline. Just like people will never stop buying storage of some sort. These are not luxury items, and are both tied quite heavily into all sectors of business.

      Gas can only go up my friend. And 3.50/gal = 1$ per litre which is already ridiculously cheap. Your gas is cheaper than the price of water in most countries.

      --
      As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy
    17. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by fnj · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that free market sure is working good, isn't it. In any other context that is labeled fucking opportunism and is an invitation to an ass-kicking.

    18. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like the other poster said, what's your number?

      Last time my pay went up, I couldn't refuse it. Minimum wage went up. (Also, the owners made another $5,000,000 last year, but they won't give pay increases to anybody because it's a recession.)

    19. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When spinning rust gets to 0 dB let me know. They are nowhere near that quiet.

    20. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's your alternative procedure when demand exceeds supply? In capitalism who gets the goods is decided by willingness to pay more. Should there be waiting lists for months or years in advance? Or should there be a committee that decides who is the most worthy to get the goods?

    21. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

      There ARE legitimate reasons for increasing prices in this situation, I'm not surprised at how eager people are to make accusations of price fixing and immorality. But I am disturbed at how little so many people seem to understand how to run a business. Manufacturers do business by contract, supply relies on contract being fulfilled. With a complex electomechanical product like hard drives, we are not talking just a contract or even a dozen, and we aren't talking about just pushing a button and total capacity magically increasing. You have to add shifts, create more contracts, secure your supply chain. This is supposed to be free ? Get real. No, really, get real. It simply costs more to ramp up production to meet a demand that couldn't be planned for. I guess fewer Americans now than ever understand supply chain management and manufacturing processes than ever. You can get mad and resort to "ass-kicking" all you want, the problem with people that blame "capitalism" for all their woes is that they get all angry, anger makes you stupid, and stupid people hurt the people who haven't really done anything wrong or immoral.

    22. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

      Then get off slashdot and get back in school.

    23. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

      Good analog. Overtime pay, for many of us, represents a cut in pay for more hours we don't want to work, because we're already working hard. OT for me works out to be, after the increase in taxes, less than if I'd taken a part time crappy job at a retailer. So that temporary situation that looks like you're getting paid more, you might just be a sucker, and working harder and longer for even less. And when you get injured on the job, you will be discarded.

    24. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In this sector normal market forces include price fixing.

    25. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What other manufacturers? Seagate bought Samsung's hard drive division, and WD bought Hitachi.

    26. Re:Say Hello To Eternal Price Hikes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When SSDs get to $80 for 2TB, let me know. They are nowhere near that price/byte ratio.

      They are more because of the performance, not because of the amount of space

  12. shortage and price hike too by CheshireDragon · · Score: 1

    The prices are going to skyrocket. Anyone remember about a decade ago when the earthquake knocked out the memory manufacturers? RAM shot up in price x.x

    Good thing I stocked up on HDD this year. Now my dream PC can be built in Feb. =D

    --
    "That's right...I said it."
  13. Seagate... by taktoa · · Score: 2

    ...is going to wish it had chosen a different name.

    (yes, I know that Seagate wasn't listed in TFS)

    1. Re:Seagate... by treeves · · Score: 1

      What would you suggest : Floodgate? Seawall? Lucky Panda Manufacturing?

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
  14. It is not just WD that is affected by the floods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There are a good number of Tech Manufacturing Plants all or partially under water in Thailand.

    Nikon makes most of its Consumer DSLR's there and the plant is out of action. With thait other big plant in Sendai still operating at reduced levels after the Tsuami, quite a bit of stock is going to become hard to find.

  15. not a lot of disasters in central north america by Chirs · · Score: 1

    I live in the middle of the Canadian shield. About the only natural disaster we see is the occasional small tornado. No floods, no earthquakes, no hurricanes. Nothing large-scale.

    1. Re:not a lot of disasters in central north america by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Snow?

      2 inches of snow shuts down my town, and we get that much frequently through the winter.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    2. Re:not a lot of disasters in central north america by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kelowna, BC is about the safest place in the world to have a data center. No Volcanoes, No flooding (assuming you don't build within spitting distance of the river), no earthquakes, no tornados. The only thing to happen recently is a large forest fire. Again data centers tend not to be built into the rural hillside. Pretty much I'll take earthquake or fire risk (which is 1:300 year chance) over tornados (which happen every year.) Canada isn't known for damaging tornados, but the amount of times Data centers go offline in Montreal due to power, fire and ice issues, makes me go "LOL Quebec"

      Lots of data centers in the last 5 years have run into fire issues, and this has revealed weaknesses in the communication or backup systems. The common denominator? They have neighbors... on Fire.

    3. Re:not a lot of disasters in central north america by Yvan256 · · Score: 2

      If two inches of snow can shut down your town, you're not living in Canada.

    4. Re:not a lot of disasters in central north america by JuicyBrain · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you are from, but here in Quebec, 2 inches of snow is not even newsworthy. I find it kind of silly when I see an American city shut down because of snow. You get so used to it that you forget that not everybody is prepared for it :-)

    5. Re:not a lot of disasters in central north america by afidel · · Score: 1

      Exactly, or anywhere in the US midwest either. 2 feet of snow might shut down the city for a day depending on when it comes relative to rush hour.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    6. Re:not a lot of disasters in central north america by mmontour · · Score: 1

      If two inches of snow can shut down your town, you're not living in Canada.

      Technically, Vancouver and Victoria are still part of Canada.

    7. Re:not a lot of disasters in central north america by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Two INCHES? Are you kidding me? Invest in some snowplows.... We got 6 FEET once where I grew up (and this is in CA too). The only difference was the snowplows went out a couple of times a day rather than one).

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    8. Re:not a lot of disasters in central north america by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Vancouver region, according to Environment Canada, gets between 850mm to 2000mm of percipitation (west to east).

      Less than 10% of that falls as snow.

      So 2" of snow is practically an entire year's worth of snow to a quarter of the yearly precipitation. For the vast majority of the population in Metro Vancouver, 2" is basically a snowdump. (And some years, it snows not at all.)

      Victoria gets even less - it basically shuts down. Snow's an extraordinary event here, which is why it's a favorite spot for seniors and retired people.

      And yes we mock Torontonians that are dealing with blizzards when it's nice, sunny and warm here. There's a saying a Vancouver day is skiing in the morning, and golfing in the afternoon, because it does happen here.

    9. Re:not a lot of disasters in central north america by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... the only natural disaster we see is the occasional small tornado.

      A lot of Californians would call your winter a natural disaster that occurs every year...

    10. Re:not a lot of disasters in central north america by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you have snow, and ice which can take down power lines, roads, etc. Every location on Earth has an environmental issue... Oh, lets not forget Yellow Stone when it blows up, yeah it's going to take Canada and US down... Just like Iceland did to Europe on a much smaller scale.

  16. B-plan by Psicopatico · · Score: 1

    Looks like they didn't have a back-up plan...

    --
    Mastering the English language is fucking easy: all you have to do is to put an f* word in every fucking sentence.
    1. Re:B-plan by bws111 · · Score: 1

      What makes you say that? 'Absorb the loss' is a valid backup plan if the alternatives cost more than the loss being prevented. You wouldn't pay $500/yr for collision insurance on a car worth $300, would you?

    2. Re:B-plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course they have one : "have the taxpayer bail them out".

  17. So, this opens up a nice opportunity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good excuse to change to solid state

  18. It is anything they want it to be by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    The great thing about calling it Global Climate Change is that it is anything the speaker wishes it to be. Any condition can be ascribed to it. Any weather phenomenon that makes the news can be included.

    It you make your terms generic enough there isn't much that escapes your grasp.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  19. Wouldn't have happened... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if they'd used RAID. Basic disaster avoidance planning. Come on, man.

  20. Return of the soviets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Funny how the modern capitalistic liberal system is reproducing the errors of the soviets.

  21. You should have paid attention. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The predictions haven't changed. They've always said droughts and floods, stronger storms, etc. It's more about global climate redistribution. Places that see very little rain will see a lot more, places with a lot will see a lot less, etc. Imagine deserts suddenly being temperate places and vice versa. The vegetarian, animal life, etc. doesn't follow that quickly, thus a mass die off.

    Do you get a clearer picture now or would you rather keep embarrassing yourself?

  22. buildup areas change river flows and food walls by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    buildup areas change river flows and food walls just move the flood down the river.

  23. WD Hard Drives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With the failure rates in the new WD drives, having less of them on the market is a good thing...

  24. Ayn Rand is God. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought it was global cooling, then floods, then warming, then droughts, but currently volcanoes?

    Whatever. The important thing, of course, is to avoid any effective restriction of corporate air pollution - in order to prevent a free and fair marketplace that would no longer favor entrenched energy interests. If we start allowing innovation and entrepreneurship to overturn anti-humanist aristocracies (like Texas oil barons and media empires) we'll all be no better than Occupy Wall Street terrorists, and you wouldn't want that to happen!

    So we need to be sure we keep arguing about symptoms - things like average global temperature, for example - instead of about causes - like air pollution and an economic system rigged to favor dirty energy producers.

  25. what I got - mp3some by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    good thing I got this sweet 16-bay dual proc 4u chassis virtually full of barely used 1tb seagate n WD hard drives /w 2x8port 3COM SATA cards sittin here

    PS fer sale cause im goin east to west coast with the wife mp3sum@aim or mp3sum at gmail dot com, situated in Boston if local makes it easy /plz bump if you feel a woman's pressure to sell tech and make money