Gnarly Programming Challenges Help Recruit Coders

Hugh Pickens writes "George Anders writes that companies like Facebook are finding that old-fashioned hiring channels aren't paying off fast enough and are publishing gnarly programming challenges and inviting engineers anywhere to solve them. 'We developed this theory that occasionally there were these brilliant people out there who hadn't found their way to Silicon Valley,' says Facebook engineer Yishan Wong who volunteered to draft puzzles so hard that he couldn't solve them. The problems aren't the superficial brainteasers that some companies use, like estimating the number of basketballs sold every year or why are manhole covers round, but developing sophisticated algorithms — like ways of automatically seating a clique of people in a movie theater, given that best friends want to be side by side and rivals need to be far apart. David Eisenstat has compiled an unofficial guide to the Facebook Engineering Puzzles. Our favorite: 'Liar, Lair,' seems particularly applicable to slashdot: 'As a newbie on a particular internet discussion board, you notice a distinct trend among its veteran members; everyone seems to be either unfailingly honest or compulsively deceptive,' says the description of the problem. 'You must write a program to determine, given all the information you've collected from the discussion board members, which members have the same attitude toward telling the truth.'"

Comments

Missed a category

[Baloroth]

Should be: all the board members are either unfailingly honest, compulsively deceptive, or massive trolls. Might actually have real world applications.

Also, oblig xkcd.

Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

MemberClass = GetCurrentMember();
for Post in MemberClass.GetAllPosts():
          for Reply in Post.GetAllReplies():
                    if "rtfa" in Reply.lower() and Reply.Poster != Member:
                              Member.LiarProbability = Member.LiarProbabilty + 1;

 

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Using that code, you end up with probabilities far greater than 1, which are meaningless. It would be better to call the variable "LiarScore" or something like that.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Synerg1y]

Your not gonna work for fb anytime soon sorry I can't be any nicer about it

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/faculty/pennebaker/reprints/Deception.pdf

I think part of the challenge is thinking outside the box towards stuff like this link.

I'd start by writing a dictionary table of lying words and query off that and I'd also try and research other things in the realm of psychology that indicate when somebody is lying in their phrasing or not.

If you think the only part to coding is the code itself, then at least you know where you now stand.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[MagicM]

LIES!

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

if User.NitpickeryScore > 10:
          User.LonlinessScore = User.LonlinessScore + 1;

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if you're one of those crazy people who DOES RTFA, then turns around and posts a comment that includes 20+ correct things and you get ONE SINGLE THING wrong, everyone on /. will immediately tell you to RTFA anyway, so this won't work. Which is why I only RTFA about half the time...I don't care THAT much, and someone is going to tell me to RTFA even if I already did.

Second...JavaScript man? I mean, am I wrong? Is this Python or something (I mainly use JavaSccript and PHP, but at least I realize when to use what, and I lean towards PHP whenever possible), or did you seriously just write code that would OBVIOUSLY be server-side in JavaScript? I must be very unaware of the syntax of some other language because I know you didn't just post potential JS code for something that would be server-side like this.

More on topic...I applaud FB for this. As someone who sunk 5 years into a CS degree (which involved exactly 4 computing classes, and 31 other, non-computing classes, including "intro to computing" and "microcomputer applications" i.e. MS Office) I can tell you that I learned more about writing actual code in 2 hours with an online tutorial than I did in 5 years at a major institution. (Before anyone asks, me and Public Speaking class didn't get along too well. Would've been out a full year sooner...) I've been writing "code" of some sort since I was 4 and I'm 24 now (yes it was a batch script in DOS, but at 4 that's not half bad) and I'm not even the best programmer I know. Yet, if I had to list the top 10 programmers I know, I'd say 3 have even been to college, and only 2 have a degree. It may not apply to every field, but I'm sorry, for computing, hiring someone with a college degree means one thing and one thing only - they can be forced to do bitchwork for 4 (or 5) years for no logical reason. If you go to college and get an education in computing so that you can get a job in a field that makes more money, you're NOT going to really give a damn about the code you write. When it's what you do for "fun" then you'll always do a better job at it than someone who doesn't enjoy it and is only in it for the money. I find that it's exceptionally rare that someone gets a degree in CS because they enjoy CS. they get the CS degree because they think it's more hire-able. And that's really sad.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Dunbal]

Or just keep track of the cumulative, and divide the member.LiarProbability by it, then multiply by 100 to give you a percentage...

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I'd start by writing a dictionary table of lying words...

Well, one way you could have been nicer about it was to clickie the linkie before spouting off this nonsense:

http://www.facebook.com/careers/puzzles.php?puzzle_id=20

Most places would prefer you stay inside the box and start by reading the requirements. ;)

It's a math problem, not an attempt at AI.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[mooingyak]

According to the summary, it's asking you to determine "which members have the same attitude toward telling the truth", which is similar but not exactly the same as determining whether a given person is telling the truth or not. I would assume the following:

You have to do this in a purely reactive way, meaning you're not allowed to ask questions, you can only look at what others have asked and how people have responded.
You do not have enough knowledge about the topic being discussed to determine truth/falsehood based on the accuracy of their answers.

So the problem boils down to recognizing what questions are identical, or at least similar enough to be useful (i.e "How many cows are in farmer Brown's herd?" vs "How many cows does farmer Brown have?" vs "Does farmer Brown own more than 50 cows?")

And then looking for answers that match up (matching the questions above, "about 40", "37", "no").

You may also have to contend with the possibility the honest and accuracy are not the same thing, and that a perfectly honest person can still be wrong.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Kjella]

Is it a bad sign when I want to nitpick and say you could just use "User.LonlinessScore++;"?

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Synerg1y]

Your assuming any question would be identical or have a similar answer, I would add your logic on top of mine though to get that extra 1% that it may or may not catch. Your assumption is quite great though, I wouldn't apply it in a real world scenario.

The question might also be personal or even abstract, ex. "what color are your eyes", there's just too many variables to factor in, you need a concrete base (in my case psychology), and then expand on it to improve your project over others.

I am assuming too that the person will answer in a manner which indicates a lie based on what we know of liars psychologically, there may be better approaches yet, but I don't think it's possible to nail 100%, closest algorithm wins.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Synerg1y]

This kind of problem reminds me of advanced placement java in highschool :)

Real world coding is far more repetitive tedious, and fuckin boring.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Anonymous Coward]

if User.NitpickeryScore > 10:

          User.LonelinessScore++;

FTFY. I'd put parenthesis around your if-statement but this is just pseudocode.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[mooingyak]

This kind of problem reminds me of advanced placement java in highschool :)

Youngin. Java didn't exist when I took AP comp sci. :)

As to your other post, we already know it's not real world applicable, given that very few people are either unfailingly honest or compulsive liars.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[maxwell demon]

if User.NitpickeryScore > 10:

          User.LonelinessScore++;

FTFY. I'd put parenthesis around your if-statement but this is just pseudocode.

You mean this?

(if User.NitpickeryScore > 10:
          User.LonelinessScore++);

Most people would make the parentheses around the condition instead (except Lisp programmers: They would do both). :-)

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Yes it is. That's Python code. ;)

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no ++ operator in Python. Not sure if this was intended to be Python, but it looks like it parses. Of course, those ugly semi-colons aren't necessary, and the variable names don't follow PEP 8... So who knows. =)

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[maxwell demon]

I'd start by writing a dictionary table of lying words...

Well, one way you could have been nicer about it was to clickie the linkie before spouting off this nonsense:

http://www.facebook.com/careers/puzzles.php?puzzle_id=20

Most places would prefer you stay inside the box and start by reading the requirements. ;)

It's a math problem, not an attempt at AI.

Actually, unless I'm missing (or misunderstanding) something, this is actually a quite simple problem. Maybe the difficulty is in making it efficient?

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Sorry to reply to my own post, but like a dumb-butt I didn't hit preview. Python doesn't support ++. Drives me nuts.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Anonymous Coward]

So is it a bad sign when I want to nitpick and say you could just use "User.LonlinessScore += 1"? ;p

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Anonymous Coward]

User.LonelinessScore += 1

FTFY. There's no need to put parenthesis around your one-expression, one-line if-condition. This is Python!

FTFY. Python doesn't have a ++ operator.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Well, no, it's not psuedocode. But I will concede that Python is basically jusy psuedocode that works after you've properly indented it.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Anonymous Coward]

I find that it's exceptionally rare that someone gets a degree in CS because they enjoy CS. they get the CS degree because they think it's more hire-able. And that's really sad.

I hope you're wrong and speaking for myself, I didn't get my CS degree because of the money.

BTW: Not all CS degrees sucks as much as yours. I had a lot more than 4 computing classes and none of them was Microsoft crap.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Anonymous Coward]

neither does ruby, and it drives me equally nuts.

it **does** support '+=' though. better than nothing.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Anonymous Coward]

python supports "Variable += 1", which is slightly better (although not as short as ++)

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Thank you!

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[b4dc0d3r]

In what alternate universe is Python a typo for something that does support ++? And somehow, you reading your own post after typing it all out, would have realized duh, Python doesn't support ++, I meant a completely different language?

Seriously just curious.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

The code I wrote was in Python. It wasn't understood that I wrote it in Python, so I clarified that and submitted my post. After I hit submit, I realized that not everybody may know that Python doesn't do ++.

I really don't get what you meant by 'typo' in this context.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Anonymous Coward]

It's spelled "pseudo", dumbass.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

It was a slip of the keys, just like 'jusy' was, virgin.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[Anonymous Coward]

5
Stephen 1
Tommaso
Tommaso 1
Galileo
Isaac 1
Tommaso
Galileo 1
Tommaso
George 2
Isaac
Stephen

S E,1
T S,1 I,1 G,1
G
I G,1 E,1
E

maxliars:

S
T
I
=3

minliars:
E -> S is lying; Anything contradictory?
S -> T is lying
I -> T is lying
G -> T is lying (BUT)
G -> I is lying
G -> E is lying (Hmmm)

if E lying, S cant be lying!
if G lying and I lying, T and I may not be lying!

S -> E,-1
T-> S,1 I,-1 G,-1
G
I G,-1 E,1
E

S -> culled;
T and I have at least one affirmation, thereby they stay.

T, I = 2

Ans: 3 2.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[optimism]

Youngin. Java didn't exist when I took AP comp sci. :)

Youngin. AP comp sci didn't exist when I went to high school.

As to the GP's post, if coding is "repetitive tedious, and fuckin boring", it's because you are repetitive, tedious, and boring.

The main purpose of programming is to eliminate human repetition.

If you can't figure out how to eliminate repetitive coding, you aren't a real programmer. Just a hack.

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[s_p_oneil]

You should get a +5 funny for all the problems you managed to embed into two lines of code that keep programmers from resisting the urge to nit-pick. My first thoughts were the mis-spelling of loneliness, the non-standard indentation for Python (which requires you to be anal about indentation), the avoidance of +=, and the unnecessary semi-colon at the end of the line.

So what does that make my nit-pickery score?

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

The nitpick about the indentation on a site that won't let me put in the tab whitespace landed you neatly between "never touched a woman" and "Babylon 5 is playing on his TV right now".

Re:Simple test to detect liars in a fourm

[s_p_oneil]

Good one. ;-)

From what I hear, you're not supposed to use tab whitespace in Python anyway:
    s_p_oneil.NitpickeryScore += 1 ;#) Add another for a syntactically valid smiley icon

Actually, when I hit preview, it converted my 2 spaces into 4 for some reason, so I'll have to give you that one. Someone should give the /. devs a hard time for not making posts Python-safe. I think I just pushed myself into the "owning my own bat-leth" category, or perhaps even a storm-trooper costume. ;-)

First Comment: WOOT!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well maybe. And of course no one ever lies, exaggerates, or provides missleading titles on Slashdot ;-)

Real world.

[clinko]

Given the number of comments take each post and divide by....

Got an email Hold on...

Management has now changed the comments to votes...

Given the number of votes FOR a post...

Email again, 1 sec...

We're now on a new project making a "facebook for insurance policies"?

Re:Real world.

[Bucky24]

"The novice programmer stares in wonder at the bird, for he understands it not. The average programmer dreads the coming of the bird, for he fears its message. The master programmer continues to work at his terminal, for he does not know that the bird has come and gone." http://www.canonical.org/~kragen/tao-of-programming.html#book7

Re:Real world.

[znerk]

Your truthfulness factor is too high, you have been discluded from the pool of valid users.

Re:Real world.

[MadKeithV]

We're now on a new project making a "facebook for insurance policies"?

I laughed.
Then I cried a little.

Then I thought no, the poster is lying, because in the real world there would be a "for the iPad" appended.

Old-fashioned hiring channels

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, let's see here. We have the standard interview format, where they find out what you know and how you've used it (after HR subjects your resume to the most stupid and rigorous pigeonholing known to man), there's the audition format, where they give you a task and judge your results, and then there's what I like to call the goofy-as-fuck-Google-format, where they subject you to bizarre questions that don't have any particular bearing on your actual job and instead attempt to figure out how creative or conservative you are while you demonstrate a certain level of knowledge on a topic. From lowest amount of hoops to most, you are progressively demonstrating as an employer how desperate you are to find "authentic" applicants that fit your corporate culture.

Whether these are effective or not I leave up to your metrics. I don't play games, I get shit done.

Re:Old-fashioned hiring channels

[Anonymous Coward]

This story reminds me of the scene in The Social Network where Zuckerberg sets up a drunken network hacking challenge to select the interns he's going to take with him to Silicon Valley. And I thought to myself, "seriously, a challenge to find out who can break through network security the fastest while drinking is considered a reasonable approach to hiring someone to help write a simple PHP/MySQL web app? For fucks sake!"

Companies that use these kinds of metrics are companies that think way too highly of themselves. I have no interest in jumping through hoops like that, and no interest in working for some assclown who wants me to jump through hoops like that.

Re:Old-fashioned hiring channels

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't play games, I get shit done.

great, but while you're sitting on the toilet and everyone else is goofing off in solitaire, who's doing the actual work?

Re:Old-fashioned hiring channels

[FooAtWFU]

Most goofy interview questions... the answer itself is irrelevant. The questions are about seeing how the interviewee reacts and reasons about a problem. Some of these are more concrete exercises than others. Besides seeing how a candidate reasons about code, it may be useful to see how they reason about the task itself - do they ask why they're doing it and try to understand the goals and constraints? Do they try to understand the resources at their disposal? Are they able to provide any vision into what this task should accomplish? Are they able to get excited about that vision and doing a good job even if it's silly or uninspiring? (Many tasks will be uninspiring.) When faced with a mildly ridiculous constraint or a bad idea, does the candidate push back against it, try to understand it, try to circumvent it, get discouraged, get upset, lose interest, keep calm and carry on, ...?

At a big company like Google, there will always be some amount of games that you're playing with management, and they will interfere with your ability to "get shit done". If they've filtered you out based on your unwillingness to put up with that, it sounds like the interview was a success for both parties. (I appreciate small companies as well, and I have plenty of opportunity to get shit done.)

Notice that Google is also in a funny position where they apparently don't hire people for individual positions as much as they do at other companies; instead they go out trolling for smart people and try to figure out where they can fit them in. This also probably isn't the best approach for most companies. From the rumours I've heard the main crazy isn't the interview questions: it's the way the interview process can drag out for weeks while they try to shop around with different groups.

I've done interviews before myself, and prefer a slightly more integrated exercise combining algorithms and other things (e.g. "let's design a tic-tac-toe server.")

did anyone else...

[Moheeheeko]

read "Yishan Wong" as Yuuzhan Vong?

An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[gweihir]

Quite frankly, solving these problems today should not be hard. At most a literature search should bring you the algorithmics. But what is hard is doing good, maintainable interfaces, writing high quality code, having a good design and a good architecture, having working defense-in-depth against attacks, etc. None of which a brilliant person without in-depth CS education and significant experience can do. This just keeps up the atrocious code quality responsible for so many data leaks and successful attacks. It also explains the high cost of software.

This is the wrong approach on so many levels...

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[Baloroth]

Quite frankly, solving these problems today should not be hard. At most a literature search should bring you the algorithmics. But what is hard is doing good, maintainable interfaces, writing high quality code, having a good design and a good architecture, having working defense-in-depth against attacks, etc. None of which a brilliant person without in-depth CS education and significant experience can do. This just keeps up the atrocious code quality responsible for so many data leaks and successful attacks. It also explains the high cost of software.

This is the wrong approach on so many levels...

It does, however, go very far in explaining Facebook's current state.

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[petes_PoV]

Yes, while this sort of screening can identify some incredibly bright individuals, that's a secondary quality. Much more important for a company is the knowledge that its employees can be relied upon: both to deliver (and not flit, butterfly-like, from once interesting looking idea to another - without ever finishing anything) what they've been told to do and act with the maturity needed to do stuff that they don't find interesting, but is needed for the company to flourish.

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[ackthpt]

Quite frankly, solving these problems today should not be hard. At most a literature search should bring you the algorithmics. But what is hard is doing good, maintainable interfaces, writing high quality code, having a good design and a good architecture, having working defense-in-depth against attacks, etc. None of which a brilliant person without in-depth CS education and significant experience can do. This just keeps up the atrocious code quality responsible for so many data leaks and successful attacks. It also explains the high cost of software.

This is the wrong approach on so many levels...

It does, however, go very far in explaining Facebook's current state.

I'm curious how eBay recruits coders...

"Do you follower orders to the letter, even if they are bloody stupid and will cause anger and frustration among the user base."

"Yes. I hate people. It would give me great joy."

"When can you start?"

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[Vellmont]

I agree that there's many, many poor interfaces, unmaintainable code, and security nightmares. But what makes you think this has anything to do with "engineer coders"? I've been in this industry for 15 years, and I have no idea what a "engineer coder" means. Fools come in many shapes and forms, and I've never found any simple way to distinguish between them.

Much of the problem is that quality code isn't valued in academic programs. So it's no surprise that people come out without having these skills.

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[gweihir]

Quite frankly, solving these problems today should not be hard. At most a literature search should bring you the algorithmics. But what is hard is doing good, maintainable interfaces, writing high quality code, having a good design and a good architecture, having working defense-in-depth against attacks, etc. None of which a brilliant person without in-depth CS education and significant experience can do. This just keeps up the atrocious code quality responsible for so many data leaks and successful attacks. It also explains the high cost of software.

This is the wrong approach on so many levels...

It does, however, go very far in explaining Facebook's current state.

It does indeed.

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[JonySuede]

You are almost correct, solving most of these problems using an O(2^x) algorithm or worst is trivial, but solving it on a large dataset before the universe heat death is not. But the challenge you mentioned (maintainable interfaces, writing high quality code, having a good design and a good architecture, having working defense-in-depth against attacks) are hard, nonetheless they can be solved at the workplace by establishing a well crafted mentorship and learning program; being an innate NP-hard problem solver writer is... is... is well innate.

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[gweihir]

To define: An engineer is somebody that understands the state-of-the-art in a technological field really well and can use the tools it provides to create technological artifacts (here: software) that solve concrete problems in a reliable, efficient and secure way.

I agree that many academically educated "coders" are not engineers either. Quite frankly, about 75% of my graduation year in my CS master's program does not qualify. However that is only partially the fault of the university, as the important subjects were being taught. You just had to much choice and could avoid them all. I also have to admit that the Software Engineering lecture was a bad joke, taught by an US-educated professor with the main qualification of having an over-sized ego. For example, this guy failed to define aliveness of petri-nets correctly in 5 consecutive weeks and then once more in the written exam. Pathetic.

Still, engineers always have to be pragmatists, have to understand the long-term perspective and at least a part of the business-perspective. They can be brilliant but do not need to be. In software, a good engineer can specify, architect, design, implement and maintain a software system, all steps with reasonable quality. All steps need significant education, insight and experience. For example, it is very difficult to be a good architect without real coding experience. At the same time, you cannot be a good coder without architecture, design and maintenance experience.

While brilliance is great, it can never replace experience and education. It can however lead to "brilliant" solutions that work well in the short term, but are a maintenance, scalability, security and reliability nightmare. For example, one thing brilliant people in coding regularly miss is that simplicity, consistency and clarity are absolutely essential for maintainable code. Another thing they typically do not know is that it is actually harder to come up with simple solutions than with complex ones and that simple solutions are worth much, much more than complex ones. This comes IMO from both lack of experience and the personal experience that they can master complex solutions (in the short-term that is). It quite frankly often also has a component of arrogance and disregard for others that have that experience and are perceived as "holding them back". I have seen quite a few people like that fail when presented with a real-world longer-term problem.

That said, a truly great coder has education, experience _and_ brilliance. These people are really, really rare but cannot be replaced by anything else. If you need one of those, best hold the project until you have found one.

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[AwesomeMcgee]

Sorry but I picked up the knr when I was 11, it spoke to me. So I installed looplinux and started learning. I was kicked out of high school at 16 for lack of attendance because I wrote asp 3 days a week at a web design shop and only went to school 2. Never went to college but I have 10 years professional experience now and do my proper design by contract, write my unit tests, and follow SOLID. Education isn't necessary, far more valuable is the experience and skill needed to analyze a solution and identify it's strengths and weaknesses and know if the ratio can be changed. I have worked with people who had masters in cs but couldn't code, and those who could write a garbage collector offhand from their classes. The point here is the classes don't teach, rather the student learns. So the education you say is required for good code is not accurate, a learned person is required. The mechanism of their learning is irrelevant.

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[Vellmont]

What you call brilliance, I call "cleverness". Brilliance is seeing things in a flash, or seeing what others can't. Cleverness is just a narrow minded view of making this fast, or cool, or "efficient", or whatever, without regard to maintainability, readability, or the entire larger picture of software development. There's plenty of people tat are brilliant, and see beyond what others can and also value simplicty, maintainability, etc. The underlying problem (one of many) is the narrow focus and tunnel vision. Another problem is simply that management all to often doesn't understand the problems that maintenance presents, so little focus or reward is placed on maintainable software, or maintaining it at all. It's a systemic problem, with multiple root causes.

I've never been much for statements like "broadly defined, nebulous thing X can never replace broadly defined nebulous thing Y". Blanket statements like that become essentially meaningless unless you very narrowly define what was originally something very broad. Can't someone be brilliant about creating simplicity, or brilliant about maintaining code? Why does this have to come through experience and education? Those sorts of hard lined statements aren't terribly enlightening.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying and agree with the values. I simply don't agree as to the causes or associations. Brilliant people can certainly create bad code. They may be just as bad as an average coder is, I really couldn't say. The point being, to solve the problem we need to change the culture, not create terminology, and draw circles around people.

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he used the right definition of liveness (assuming you're talking about P/T nets with only black tokens) and just chose one you are not familiar with. There are four perfectly good definitions that I know of. And some books only present one of those (not necessarily the same one) or two or at most three. So, maybe, just maybe, your professor had an ego problem but also a clue.

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[gweihir]

I understand what you are saying. I used to think along similar lines. But by now I have had the opportunity to add quite a bit of experience to the mix and looking back, I was just kidding myself back then.

So I stand by my statement: Experience cannot be replaced by anything else, no matter how brilliant, clever, etc. a person is. And experience is essential for the long-term view. There are so many factors that you simply cannot anticipate or even understand until you actually have seen them at work. The other effect of experience is a clearer understanding of your own limitations. That is understanding is essential for producing consistently good results. Even if it definitely hurts acquiring it.

BTW, I agree about blanket statements as well. But with the focus on all aspects of software engineering and applied CS, "experience" is not that nebulous. But that again is something that can only be seen with experience, which causes the original fix that really brilliant/smart/clever coders that do not have a lot of experience are in. They simply cannot see their limitations even if they try hard. As I said, looking back I was in the same position. Quite a few really smart and capable friends tell the same story. "When I finished my studies, I though I knew everything." I even had to fire a young lady that was so convinced of that (and in all fairness she is pretty smart) that she refused to even consider my border-conditions as valid (clean interfaces, a specific naming convention, ...). She managed to completely and persistently misunderstand these as the crutches of a lesser mind (mine). It was obvious to me that she never had to maintain any of the software she wrote. (Finished the project myself with very good results.) Fortunately, I was confronted with this problem even before University, because I had a job as "toolmaker" for a businessman with solid mathematical background but no current programming skills. I had to change my code pretty often and in the beginning was quite often confronted with my own bad decisions.

So, the critical skills do not come through experience and education. But talent combined with experience and education produces them. Without experience and education, that talent stays mostly undeveloped. Of course, if somebody does not have talent, no amount of experience and education will create these skills either.

And no, you cannot be "brilliant" about maintaining code and about creating simplicity without experience and education. You need examples that show the value of these things. Even the most celebrated thinkers had these examples to learn from. Another aspect is that simplicity and maintainable code really need a deep understanding on how other people think and approach problems. For example, the only way to find out how clean and clear your code is is to have somebody else work on it and give you a honest evaluation. There simply is no other way.

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[gweihir]

I am actually sure he did not have a clue. The first corrections he always explained that somebody pointed a mistake out to him and explained what was wrong. The last one (in the exam), I fixed his definition, attached a proof that his was wrong and got full score. The point was that his definition just did not do what he wanted it to do. (By then some friends and I had done several days of literature research to find out how this really works. And yes, I recall running into multiple definitions as well. But I do not have the details anymore, that was > 15 years ago, but yes, only black tokens. I do recall that when the exams were handed back, his TAs very nearly got beaten up. He cowardly did not show. And I had the 3rd best score of 215 participants. This was in the 4th year of University.)

So, no, I am pretty sure he had no clue. There were other things like this. Don't get me wrong, making a mistake is fine and even fixing it wrong on occasion is fine. But not this often. That is just incompetent and arrogant. My guess is he rolled his own definition and was not up to the task.

Re:An this way they again get non-engineer coders

[gweihir]

I see your misunderstanding. I never said "formal education". Some are able to educate themselves. It still takes time and in a good job-interview you can identify people that have managed to complement a lacking formal education.

That being said, a lack of formal education indicated a lack of understanding how society works. That may disqualify you as a software architect in some cases, unless you also managed to learn that skill by yourself later on which is something a prospective employer needs to know.

But in all frankness, most people with your type of resume have some serious deficits buried in there. I was bored in most of school, but I managed to work out an understanding with my teachers and did stay on, despite maybe 60% attendance. You failed or did not even try. And in my CS masters program (European system), I was everything but bored. In all frankness, you can only judge the worth of such a program if you have gone through one. It does still produce duds, no question. But it can make good people great and mediocre people good. It may also be a problem with the US system. European Universities are not funded by tuition. The have no problem kicking 50% out in the first 2 years (We started 520, and had about 250 remaining after the Vordiplom, which you should pass at 2 years and have to pass no later than after 3 years). If the University is cutting its own funding by that, then the level of learning will drop sharply. I don't have a lot of experience with US university, just a 6 weeks visit to ODU and s friend that went to CS at CalTech, but it seems the quality varies sharply. At ODU, they did things towards graduation that we did in our first and second year of cs. Such a degree seems pretty worthless to me. CalTech seems more on the level I experienced.

Same type of stuff needs to be done with IT work

[Joe_Dragon]

To many HR people are focusing inordinately on candidates’ education, grade-point averages, what school they went to HR does not like tech schools.

So they end up turning away a lot of talented people whose true abilities surpassed their academic credentials.

Now for IT an apprenticeship system will be a good fit and let people work though real work place challenges and other stuff you do not get in the books.

xkcd

[MagicM]

obligatory xkcd

Re:xkcd

[Baloroth]

Also this. And the one I posted above. Maybe Slashdot should just start putting these in the summary.

Re:xkcd

[jspenguin1]

And this. That's 4 relevant XKCD comics for one article. Is that a new record?

Really?

[PCM2]

So that's what programmers at software companies do all day? Write novel algorithms?

Coulda fooled me, last software job I had I spent all day in meetings.

Re:Really?

[blair1q]

+1 Disgruntled.

Re:Really?

[petes_PoV]

Quite right. A more reliable interview technique would be to fill you up with coffee and see how long you hold out before needing a break. That's the best way to get agreements in meeting: out-bladder everyone else there. By the end, they'll agree to anything just to get to the bathroom.

Re:Same type of stuff needs to be done with IT wor

[geekoid]

Which is why it's critical for IT people ti participate in user groups.

Very few jobs I ever got where through HR. HR had always been told to hire me, and that ended their involvement with the hiring process.
I have found this to be true with everyone I ever talked to about it.; however that's an anecdote, so grain of salt and all that.

The bets Process I ever went through was for a government position. I was valued on my experience, and they actually asked relevant questions.

found my way to Silicon Valley?

[Anonymous Coward]

"We developed this theory that occasionally there were these brilliant people out there who hadn't found their way to Silicon Valley,' says Facebook engineer Yishan Wong...."

Seriously? This guy is an a$$. I left the valley 10 years ago and never looked back

Silicone Valley Centric

[Kagato]

"We developed this theory that occasionally there were these brilliant people out there who hadn't found their way to Silicon Valley"

A lot of folks don't make it to the SV. The chances of making it huge are pretty slim. Even if you work for a company like Facebook, but the time the majority of people have joined cheap stock options are claimed. So that leaves you with long days, astronomical costs of living, and the opertunity to get stuck with over priced property every time a bubble bursts. Or you could leave other places in the US that have lower costs of living that more than make up for the slightly lower pay.

Re:Silicone Valley Centric

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus we make WAY more money in NOVA or Maryland, working on far more interesting work. We just have to post as AC.

Re:Same type of stuff needs to be done with IT wor

[TheRealMindChild]

"bets" huh? You just proved the point for the wrong side, friend

(facepalm time)

[Quiet_Desperation]

'We developed this theory that occasionally there were these brilliant people out there who hadn't found their way to Silicon Valley/

Douche comment of the week right there. And I want to work with someone who has *that* limited of a horizon why, exactly?

Re:(facepalm time)

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't live on one of the coasts in the US, you might as well not exist as far as technology companies are concerned.

Re:(facepalm time)

[spiritgreywolf]

Well, he's also working for Zuckerberg, right? That's worth cutting your own throat right there. I trust that guy as far as I could throw him and his stock options. I wouldn't piss in that guys mouth if his teeth were on fire.

Re:(facepalm time)

[sco08y]

'We developed this theory that occasionally there were these brilliant people out there who hadn't found their way to Silicon Valley/

Douche comment of the week right there. And I want to work with someone who has *that* limited of a horizon why, exactly?

It's got a tough contender: "Our favorite: 'Liar, Lair,' seems particularly applicable to slashdot..."

Oh my God, people on a discussion site disagree strongly about things, stop the fucking presses.

Re:(facepalm time)

[moderatorrater]

What if they weren't?

Re:(facepalm time)

[Orestesx]

Seemed kind of tongue-in-cheek to me.

Re:(facepalm time)

[St.Creed]

I've seen a bit too many of his type and I fear it was a completely serious remark.

Re:(facepalm time)

[Myopic]

lulz

Re:(facepalm time)

[Anonymous Coward]

No kidding. What a stupid comment by this Wong dude (chick?). I would rather hire someone smart enough to live somewhere less lame than SV.

Re:(facepalm time)

[ywong137]

Hi, I'm Yishan Wong. First, has anyone else here ever been quoted in a book or online publication and had it end up making you look like a douche when that's not at all what you meant? Especially when you spent like hours talking to your interviewer and they paraphrase it down into words you didn't actually say? Well, please don't hate until it's happened to you. Secondly, I should obviously clarify. The quote makes it sound like we were thinking, "By Jove, what if it's possible that there's intelligent life outside of Silicon Valley!" That's not what we were thinking! C'mon! Rather, the situation is more like this: it's pretty obvious that there are great engineers everywhere. The problem is, if you're a startup in the Valley, your recruiters don't go looking outside the Valley for you. It's just this insular thing where everyone is trying to recruit (poach) from everyone else. It becomes a zero-sum game of talent competition for a limited pool. We were this tiny startup that no one took seriously so we couldn't compete against the other players in the Valley (e.g. Google, who was crushing everyone else at the time at recruiting). So instead, we're like, "Okay, we should figure out a way to get all the talented people *outside* the Valley to join us, because we can't win the in-Valley echo-chamber local recruiting game." The problem is, as I noted above, recruiters aren't really going to work very hard trying to find some random guy in Portland, Maine, they just try to hand you resumes of local people at other Silicon Valley companies (especially the kinda-crappy contingency recruiters we were working with back then - we were small, we didn't have uber-headhunters with a global reach or anything). So we needed a way to reach these "brilliant people" "languishing in ordinary tech jobs who hadn't made it to Silicon Valley." The recruiters don't even know to look there. If you're brilliant and you're in the Valley, the recruiting machine is so strong that you'll inevitably get swept up into some company or other. But if you're in some podunk town and you're brilliant, that's not likely to happen. You just get a regular tech job where you end up being unusually productive. No recruiter is going to come looking for you, because recruiters look for big-name experience keywords (e.g. "did he work at Microsoft/Google/Apple" etc) or sexy technology keywords on your resume. If you're brilliant but in an ordinary tech job, you might have not have the Hadoop keyword on your resume (you might not have an online resume at all because hey, you have a fucking job already) because your crappy ISP job doesn't need to crunch terabytes of data. But you're still smart enough to do it. I know this because I'm from Minnesota, and before I happened to move to Silicon Valley because a girl I liked said that I should, I worked at an ordinary tech job just like Evan Priestley (the guy they mention in the article), where I was just an unusually productive guy. So we needed to find people like that, because the current system wasn't doing it, even though it was obvious to all of us from the Midwest or wherever that smart people are hidden in little pockets everywhere. So yeah, we "developed this theory that occasionally there were these brilliant people out there who hadn't found their way to Silicon Valley." Unfortunately I guess it came out sounding like the opposite of what we meant. :-/ ---- PS: if you're reading this while procrastinating your crappy job at a small-time firm where all your work is too easy for you and you're like the smartest guy there, you're basically who I'm talking about. ;-)

Re:(facepalm time)

[ywong137]

Argh, apparently I don't know how to use the Slashdot linefeed systems. Sorry, I haven't been here since like 2000. I apologize for the huge wall of text.

Re:(facepalm time)

[Anonymous Coward]

So, your entire world revolves around Silicon Valley, and you say people from elsewhere have limited horizon?

Re:(facepalm time)

[Dotmonsoon]

Is this one of those puzzles? The objective being to insert paragraphs at the appropriate junctures?

P.S. Hire me. I'm exceptionally good at ganking and camping people in World of Warcraft.

Re:(facepalm time)

[Anonymous Coward]

Tip. When you want the people to read your post and get your point across, use paragraphs; you don't have to be brilliant to know that.

Cheers.

Re:(facepalm time)

[Anonymous Coward]

Is Yishan Wong so brilliant that he can create a puzzle so hard even his brilliance can't solve it? ;)

Re:(facepalm time)

[Raenex]

First, has anyone else here ever been quoted in a book or online publication and had it end up making you look like a douche when that's not at all what you meant? Especially when you spent like hours talking to your interviewer and they paraphrase it down into words you didn't actually say? Well, please don't hate until it's happened to you.

It's never happened to me personally, but I've seen and heard about several examples where this has happened. You're absolutely right, dealing with the press is a minefield.

So instead, we're like, "Okay, we should figure out a way to get all the talented people *outside* the Valley to join us, because we can't win the in-Valley echo-chamber local recruiting game."

What I've seen Google do is have their engineers actively recruit people who write tech blogs that sound like they know their shit. You can also scour forums like Stack Overflow or look at open source projects. Also, the whole idea that you need to actually be in Silicon Valley to work instead of telecommuting is silly in 2011.

Re:(facepalm time)

[Quiet_Desperation]

It almost makes me glad I'm closer to early retirement than not- I knew the tech industry had wet dreams about being like Hollywood, but I didn't realize that extended even to recruiting. Sorry, it still sounds bad, like your valley is some sort of El Dorado or Holy Land.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

Anyway, I design hardware. [podunk voice="applejack"]That seems to baffle most "tech" types from that there valley of yours, sugarcube. Why, shucks, them rascals seem to reckon hardware appears fully formed on store shelves courtesy of the gadget elves.[/podunk] Gee, stereotypes are fun, aren't they?

Oh, wait, should I have translated this into l33t speak?

Re:(facepalm time)

[Anonymous Coward]

He's talking about me!

Re:(facepalm time)

[ywong137]

It's never happened to me personally, but I've seen and heard about several examples where this has happened. You're absolutely right, dealing with the press is a minefield.

Actually, the guy who interviewed me was exceptionally diligent in trying to make sure he got things right, but apparently that paraphrase still came off wrong (the book was further excerpted for that online thing that was posted here). I'm hoping it only looked that way here and not that, you know, a thousand people are reading the book in hardcopy and thinking, "God, what a douchebag." :-(

What I've seen Google do is have their engineers actively recruit people who write tech blogs that sound like they know their shit. You can also scour forums like Stack Overflow or look at open source projects. Also, the whole idea that you need to actually be in Silicon Valley to work instead of telecommuting is silly in 2011.

Yeah exactly, we definitely did all of those things, but we needed more ways (Google could obviously hit the high-profile people better than us, so we wanted to go for truly hidden gems). Telecommuting is generally fine (Facebook does it now) but at the time we were so small that it was important to have everyone in the same office. Even if you allow telecommuting, it's still hard to identify the people just because you're in California and they're in who-knows-where.

Re:(facepalm time)

[uninformedLuddite]

I was one of those innovative, quirky, intelligent, techy types. I saved up enough money to buy a small farm and I am out of there. Keep your silly little puzzles I prefer my strawberries.

I found my way to Silicon Valley

[blair1q]

I found my way to Silicon Valley.

And discovered it's a crowded, underbuilt swordfest.

No girls, no sunshine, no warmth, crappy food.

And all the computer stuff can be done from somewhere else (which is why much of Silicon Valley moved back to India).

Seriously. Plow it under and put the fruit trees back. Silicon Valley is done.

Re:I found my way to Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

I found my way to Silicon Valley.

And discovered it's a crowded, underbuilt swordfest.

No girls, no sunshine, no warmth, crappy food.

And all the computer stuff can be done from somewhere else (which is why much of Silicon Valley moved back to India).

Seriously. Plow it under and put the fruit trees back. Silicon Valley is done.

Same here and ended up leaving after two years because I hated it there. Though going there from NYC was a major culture-shock.

It blows me away that there is this preconceived notion that you have to be in the valley to be a true player in the tech world.

Code challenges for code monkeys?

[Anonymous Coward]

A real code challenge would be one where the programmer had to develop, debug, document, maintain and scale a large app. For obvious reasons it doesn't make sense for a company to issue such a code challenge.

Re:Code challenges for code monkeys?

[znerk]

"For the rights to view my solution to your programming challenge, you will be required to purchase a license to view the code, at $300 per viewing eyeball. For the rights to implement and/or execute the solution, you will need to purchase a separate license, with a purchase price of $10,000 per cpu core expected to run it, and $5,000 per cpu core that has the potential to run it (ie, a separate device on the same network). I look forward to our future business relationship, and will assume a breach of contract if I have not heard from you within 14 business days."

The liar/truth teller problem is well known.

[John.P.Jones]

The discussion board problem is a basic twist on a puzzle from Lewis Carroll, to determine if person x and person y are in the same group you ask one what the other would say to a simple well known fact ('what color is the sky?) if both are truth tellers or both are liars they will answer correctly ('blue') so they are in the same group (but you can't determine which) if they answer badly ('red') than one is a truth teller and one is a liar, and you can't tell which.

The development of a seat selection algorithm is less gimicky, but probably a greedy algorithm will work.

Re:The liar/truth teller problem is well known.

[Krishnoid]

Of course, there's always this approach.

Re:The liar/truth teller problem is well known.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your example doesn't work all the time, e.g. A says B would say "red", while B in fact would have said "green".
Both of them are liars, but according to your algorithm, one of them is telling the truth.

Re:The liar/truth teller problem is well known.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your example doesn't work all the time, e.g. A says B would say "red", while B in fact would have said "green".
Both of them are liars, but according to your algorithm, one of them is telling the truth.

You're assuming both parties are omniscient. Neither party knows for sure what the other party would say, only that their answer would be either truthful or not truthful. Therefore, if asking A what B's answer would be, and A knows that B is a liar, and A is also a liar and must therefore lie about B's answer, saying "red" is risky, as it is possible that B actually would say "red", since it is a lie. The only safe answer A can give to ensure a lie is "blue", since that is the only answer that B would never give.

The point is that there are really only two answers: "blue" and "not blue". A yes/no question might have been a better example.

Re:Same type of stuff needs to be done with IT wor

[I Read Good]

I thought the same thing at "ti" and "where"...

Help recruit coder?

[Tanuki64]

I would just leave. I don't jump through hoops to be allowed to work someone.

Re:Help recruit coder?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd give them half the solution up front, and the other half when the check clears.

Re:Help recruit coder?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

What, you just fill out an application and hope Burger King calls you back?

Re:Help recruit coder?

[Tanuki64]

Up to now the usual job interviews were totally sufficient. No fancy guessing games. And with each successful project in my cv the interviews get shorter and easier. When I get called back, it is a former customer who wants to know whether I am free or not. I am freelancer and usually booked out.

An alternate solution.

[khasim]

Via The Order of the Stick.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html

No, not "gnarly"

[Animats]

Actually, you want programmers who are good at design and reliably competent, but not overly clever, at code. "Cute" code is very '70s.

Incidentally, the "why are manhole covers round", which appeared on the 1971 Comprehensive Examination in Computer Science at Stanford and was widely copied from there, is almost always misunderstood. While it's nice to have a lid you can't drop through the hole, that's not the reason. Many modern covers are rectangular. It's because manhole covers and their matching rings are 19th century technology, from the day when casting, planing, drilling, and turning were the main metalworking operations. Those limit the shapes you can make cheaply. Look at a steam locomotive built prior to 1920. Every machined surface is circular or flat. Manhole covers were made by casting with a single clamping on a lathe to clean up the outside edge. Similarly, the matching rings were cast and got a quick trim on a lathe to true them up. This gives you a matched pair that won't rattle or clang.

Cleaning up an inside rectangular edge requires a milling machine, which was an exotic precision device until about 1930 or so.

So that's why manhole covers are round. Low manufacturing cost.

Re:No, not "gnarly"

[mjwalshe]

And from my dim a distant mech eng technical course its much easier to cast (using Victorian era sand casting) a circle than a square shape..

Re:No, not "gnarly"

[smellsofbikes]

Totally agree with your reasoning, and add: square is nearly the only shape that, given a lip so it can't drop into the hole, can be turned such that it will. If "can't drop into the hole" were the only reason, you could go with triangles or anything with more than about 5 sides, and the major diameter - minor diameter width would be exceeded by the lip so they wouldn't either. In other words, not only does history roll its eyes at this question, so does basic geometry. I've been asked this question in an interview and got a surprisingly positive reception when I gave my "this is a stupid question and here's why" response, so keep it in your bag of interview tricks.

Re:No, not "gnarly"

[Anonymous Coward]

the cover is round for no other reason than the hole is round

Re:No, not "gnarly"

[CODiNE]

Not to mention it's much easier to drop a pipe in the ground and cement it in place than building a square shaft.

Re:No, not "gnarly"

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you want programmers who are good at design and reliably competent, but not overly clever, at code. "Cute" code is very '70s.

Mod parent up.

Clever coders are the ones you want to slap when you're maintaining their code years later.

If you're being clever, you're probably writing crap code. Code should be written in the simplest way it can. A 100 line function that is clear, readable, and simple is better than a 20 line function that requires you to think about what it's trying to do.

Re:No, not "gnarly"

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all manhole covers are round, only those that cover round manholes are round. I am yet to see a round manhole cover over a sqaure manhole. Improving on the mythical "MS interviews Feynman"

Re:No, not "gnarly"

[Anonymous Coward]

What you want from your programmers really depends what your problems are. These problems don't try to test the coders "cleverness" at code by having them write poetry in perl or sonatas in C++. It tests them by having them solve real programmatic puzzles that tests an individual's ability to accomplish a task using code or technical abilities in general. There is nothing to indicate that they are looking for elegant code rather than elegant solutions to problems. In addition to this, cute code is not a direct result of a programmers coding ability. It is most often an attitude problem. Workers of any skill level can come with attitude problems. In theory, attitude problems should be easier to rectify than an innate ceiling for an individual's technical capability.

The point you're making about manhole covers isn't clear. It appears you are saying to cut costs by hiring less skilled people or rather to only pay for what you need. To you that might make sense but to others your way doesn't quite map onto the programming workforce the way that you imply. What you are dismissing is value for money. Whatever you are willing to pay, there will be a range of people with different skill levels. If you don't aim to get the cream of the crop you aren't getting the best value for money.

I think it is rather presumptuous for you to subtly claim what employers need and then subtly suggest that they have some economic impetus to obey that need. Are you perhaps a moderately skilled programmer that wishes to inflate his worth amongst the competition?

Re:No, not "gnarly"

[Krater76]

Many modern covers are rectangular.

Funny but when I clicked on your link only 1 of the manhole frames/covers on that page were rectangular. And while it's quite anecdotal, I can surely say that I have never seen a rectangular manhole cover. I live in a very large city as well so it's not like I have a sample bias against me.

what I hate about interviews

[TheGratefulNet]

is that they expect 'real time' answers to problems that sometimes need a bit of thought. its also ageist, as younger people can think faster (I sure did 30 yrs ago when I was fresh out of school) and are more familiar with classic compsci algorithms and problems. the more time you are away from those 'classic' problems and their cute solutions, the more time it will take you to re-invent them on their on. asking for that real-time while you watch is just too much to ask, for many of us.

this does NOT mean we can't solve the problem. but it does mean that realtime 'solve whilst I watch' is pure bullshit and a really stupid way to judge programming talent and problem solving ability.

Re:what I hate about interviews

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. Most interview questions are trivia. You've heard the problem before and can solve it, or not. The "game" is to pretend that you've not heard the question before.

Re:what I hate about interviews

[vlueboy]

Academia is just as bad with how it forces math down CS people's unknowing mouths. Your comment sums up exactly what I disliked about Math theory courses starting with Pre-Calculus. Every single class stopped being old material, and was riding on "cute" solutions that had to be learned by watching someone solve a boring proof. It couldn't just be figured out by looking at the book in advance because all advanced math is made through centuries worth of geniouses who worked bits out at the leisure of several years, not a 13 weeks semester.

As time went on, the requirement courses dealing with math get more esoteric and complicated to work on when, and it still is required to learn all the proof solutions and talk the cute abstract math talk to graduate. The real-world needs to clearly know what the CS academia AND the IT career holds before having plunged in. Until someone satisfactorily gives a world-famous solution to CS != Programming that deters or REORIENTS all of us to the right vocational school without finding out the hard way, then people like me will keep falling in the trap. And people making tests will love asking theoretical questions to non-theoretical people thinking everything fits everyone.

Re:what I hate about interviews

[TheGratefulNet]

in my case, I really don't remember a lot of the fancy ways to attack a problem, textbook style. so when I'm deriving, I'm really doing it for the first time. that *takes* time.

I get the feeling that I'm rushed and they don't want to talk about requirements that much. they see it as a delay tactic (I've sensed this personally). but I really do engage the person there and try to bound the problem, verbally walk thru what might not work as well as what might. see if its going in the direction he is looking for (checking frequently to see if I'm on track) - but since I often don't fully solve the problem in the allotted 15 min interval, they get frustrated and move on.

it is funny, in a way, that when I encounter someone closer to my age, they really just want to see that I'm on the right track on the problem or that I'm not going down ratholes. they can tell if I'll get there eventually and they realize that's enough testing for an interview.

Don't be too clever! :)

[Danny Rathjens]

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." -- Brian W. Kernighan

execution

[codepunk]

I hire programmers with a proven track record of actually "shipping" product. I could care less what mind bending interview problems you can solve or what school you may have attended.

Re:execution

[Anonymous Coward]

Since I can do all that is entailed with actually "shipping" a product, why wouldn't I have my own company already?

Recent and Related

[Jodka]

A couple of interesting and related things on the subject of hiring strategies appeared this week in the Wall Street Journal.

First, a fascinating review of the book "The Rare Find" by George Anders. The review beings with this interesting anecdote and gets better after that:

When Joanne Rowling, an unemployed single mother, showed her first fanciful manuscript to a dozen British publishing houses, all quickly passed on it. Eventually a single bid emerged—for about $2,500—from Bloomsbury, then a small London publisher. Wise move: Ms. Rowling's "Harry Potter" franchise is now worth billions.

Next, James Taranto theorizes that college degrees are proxy for IQ Tests, which it is illegal to use in hiring. It raises the question of whether FaceBook's Programming Challenges will not become the target of lawsuits on the basis of "differential impact" as in Griggs V. Duke Power Co.

 

Re:Recent and Related

[Anonymous Coward]

How is it illegal when police departments have used IQ tests during the hiring process and even denied a man for having an IQ that was 'too high': http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut-judge-rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.html

Re:Recent and Related

[discovercomics]

Not wanting to argue against the success of Ms. Rowling, but it would appear that the rare find in this instance is the individual at Bloomsbury that felt the author had an interesting story and was willing to go against the grain and take a chance.

Re:Recent and Related

[FooAtWFU]

Here is a passage from Griggs. I think that most companies like Facebook will be able to make a very, very good case that programming challenges are directly related to job performance at a programming job.

The touchstone is business necessity. If an employment practice which operates to exclude Negroes cannot be shown to be related to job performance, the practice is prohibited.

Notice also that employment law in this area has changed and that subsequent cases are also relevant, e.g. Wards Cove Packing Co. v. Atonio (1989) and Ricci v. DeStefano (2009).

Re:Same type of stuff needs to be done with IT wor

[mjwalshe]

Cant see the average tech company committing to a 4/5 year apprenticeship program.

Question about their theory

[Anonymous Coward]

'We developed this theory that occasionally there were these brilliant people out there who hadn't found their way to Silicon Valley,'

"Hadn't found their way to Silicon Valley" or "wouldn't want to live in the US"?

indicate the trend facebook wants to take

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't help but think that Facebook has similar things in mind to the test it is proposing. They recently allowed your friends to fill in parts of your profile that you left blank (like hometown, employment etc). You may decline to accept those, but now Facebook knows, especially if two or more people try to set the same value.

Facebook is in the business of collecting as much information about you as they can. Since you obviously can/will only give away so much directly to them and (if you're a slashdot user) are even considering poisoning your profile with wrong info, their next step is to look at your conversations with your friends as well as compelling your friends to give more info away on you. This involves assigning degrees of trust to data acquired through these methods as well as to the parties who are participating in these conversations. Hence, some algo needs to be developed to extract and validate the most probable information from the mountains of posts and even replace your poisoned fields with corrected data inferred from the posts.

Re:Same type of stuff needs to be done with IT wor

[Joe_Dragon]

it needs to be 6mo to 1-2 years apprenticeship.

Ooh! I'm One of the Liars!

[Greyfox]

I always lie in my Slashdot posts! In fact, I'm lying RIGHT NOW!

Re:Ooh! I'm One of the Liars!

[Anthony Mouse]

This statement is false.

Re:Ooh! I'm One of the Liars!

[Greyfox]

Bah! You've heard this one before!

Re:Ooh! I'm One of the Liars!

[Anonymous Coward]

no you're not...oh wait.

Re:Ooh! I'm One of the Liars!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for clearing that up! At last, I might be able to find the answer to that wretched puzzle...

Should I go through the left door, or the right door?

Re:Ooh! I'm One of the Liars!

[Greyfox]

There is ANOTHER DOOR, which is hidden! I suggest you start searching for it now!

Re:Ooh! I'm One of the Liars!

[uninformedLuddite]

fuck my heads exploding

Problem tester doesn't even work.

[Old Wolf]

The facebook page linked in TFA has a set of problems that's meant to have an auto-grading robot (which I presume then suggests to FB that it might want to hire you). However the robot has been down for months with no word on when it is coming back.

So, how do we 'apply' ?

Re:Problem tester doesn't even work.

[Greyfox]

Fix the Robot.

Re:Problem tester doesn't even work.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh my god, you mean you actually read the article? You must be new here!

mod parent up

[gumpish]

Here's hoping a ton of hits might convince facebook to get off their ass and bring it back up.

That's Not What I'm Looking For

[Greyfox]

When I'm interviewing people, I'm looking for someone who will gather requirements before he starts trying to crap code out and a person who will get along well in my team. I'm looking for someone who's enthusiastic to talk to me as a potential future team mate and doesn't view me as an impediment to a fat paycheck. The questions aren't about whether or not you know the answer to every question. They're to determine if you meet the technical competence level to perform at the job and to see how you respond to being asked to perform under pressure.

In interviews I've conducted, I've had VERY few people who didn't view me as an impediment to a fat paycheck, who didn't think the questions I was asking them were bullshit and who actually tried to find out more about what I wanted when I asked them to design a function for me. Those people got hired. Some of the others did too, but always against my advice.

You want to do well in an interview? Try ENJOYING yourself there. If you're excited to be there and excited to talk to future team mates, they will sense that. If you don't want to be there and hate everything about the process, they'll sense that too. You can refine your technique all you want after that, but you'll always get more job offers just enjoying an interview than you will if you hate it.

Re:That's Not What I'm Looking For

[Lucractius]

Which reminds me of the best skill I ever learned regarding interviews.

"Don't Panic!"

If you walk in and treat it as nothing special, don't over stress yourself, put no pressure on yourself to perform like a trained monkey, you'll be able to weed out jobs where they expect you to be a human robot & other such nasty situations you wouldn't see if you were so focused on "getting this job"

If you aren't prepared to walk out, don't walk in!

Re:That's Not What I'm Looking For

[spmkk]

The questions aren't about whether or not you know the answer to every question. They're to determine if you meet the technical competence level to perform at the job and to see how you respond to being asked to perform under pressure.

Problem is, it's a different KIND of pressure. It's one thing to work under a deadline. It's another thing entirely to work under a microscope. I perform at my absolute best when I'm working against the clock (most people do). I perform at my worst when I have to second-guess every thought and word as I try to read the interviewer's mind AND solve the f*cking problem quickly and elegantly at the same time.

It's extremely rare in a production environment that someone is looking over your shoulder as you do your work (other than to help you debug). If you want to see whether I can write a piece of code, give me the specs, watch how I go about asking questions and gathering additional data, and then leave me alone for however long you've determined/decided the assignment should take - after all, that's how it's going to work once I'm on the job. If you want to see my communication and team skills, send another developer my way when I'm done and have us step through the code together as I articulate what I did (and debug, if necessary).

You want to do well in an interview? Try ENJOYING yourself there.

Honesty time: how many people have you ever met who ENJOY being scrutinized? Who enjoy not knowing what someone else in a position of power thinks of them before, during and after a conversation? Who enjoy trying to read between the lines under pressure to try to infer what's actually expected or being asked of them?

When I'm interviewing someone, my point -- outside of a few very specific situations -- isn't to figure out if the candidate is Iceman. It's to determine whether or not s/he is a competent pilot. Engineering isn't a game show; what's the point of structuring our interviews like tryouts for one?

Re:That's Not What I'm Looking For

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a huge douche.  You do realize people are looking for a job, not a friend, right?  And you do also realize that most interviewers ARE an impediment to a fat paycheck, right?

Why blame people for being realistic, and not realizing that you are an Awesome God cool person who they should enjoy a fucking job interview with?

Fuck you.

Re:That's Not What I'm Looking For

[Greyfox]

I've interviewed you in the past haven't I? No job for you today either! Now go away, one year!

Re:That's Not What I'm Looking For

[Anonymous Coward]

In regard to the parent and GP, I have been in this position a lot recently. I've been programming for 20 years in a variety of languages and platforms. Although I am confident in my skills, I am generally a bit nervous during interviews -- particularly when some twenty-something, new grad starts asking me CS101 type questions.

Sure, I can solve that problem, but I need time to think about it, especially when I haven't seen it since my first year of university.

When I am put on the spot to write code for all but the most trivial problems with somebody breathing down my neck, I just blank out. I need to be in "that" comfort zone to think critically. Very few interviewers get that. Instead of putting the candidate on guard and defensive, find their comfort zone and let them talk about it.

Hackathon

[facetiousprogrammer]

Are you kidding me.... Hackathon??? and look at the age of the people it's like a kindergarten... http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=23155051776 Facebook just keep you puzzles you won't have my brain ever I'm not a whore....

Well, I can firmly state that ...

[jc42]

Everything I've ever posted on /. is a lie.

(How should the program classify this post? ;-)

Re:Same type of stuff needs to be done with IT wor

[Greyfox]

6 months to 1-2 years is hardly enough time to whack you with a bamboo stick, much less time for you to become enlightened in the ways of pointers in C. You might argue that for programming a bamboo stick ought not to figure into it at all, but I assure you it does. It's at least as effective a teaching tool as what they used when I was in school.

really hard problem

[deodiaus2]

How to get MBAs, bankers, and lawyers to work for the public good making an average income?

Re:really hard problem

[RazorSharp]

Socialism and a rigidly progressive tax system.

The solution isn't hard. Getting the legislation passed is the problem.

PHP

[Weezul]

We're talking about a company who writes all their code in PHP. Nuff said.

Re:PHP

[gweihir]

Well, they are doing it wrong, no question about it. If they just want to do it wrong on a larger scale, they may actually have the right approach to hiring after all.

PHP

[Weezul]

Facebook builds their software using PHP which ties VB for being the language of course for when you need as many cheap dumb programmers as possible.

You don't think they simply needed some new blood?

I'm not talking about programming talking IT work

[Joe_Dragon]

I'm not talking about programming talking about IT work.

programmers make poor system admins.

FaceBook creates low quality products

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anyone here used FaceBook's iPhone or iPad app? Stunningly buggy. Not the paragon of achievement in the industry, not an authority on good programming. Seem like they need to figure out how to ship a decent product before anyone should pay any attention to anything they have to say.

Scheduling system challenge

[Anonymous Coward]

I wrote a scheduling system for a hospital licensing system in about 800 lines of SQL code. (Took over another developers set of stored procs). Very tough, and gave me some admiration for Bill Gates, who, in high school, wrote a class scheduling system that somehow got Bill and his friends into the same classes as the hot girls. Ok, maybe not so tough. But good to know when you can say you've already done some of the toughest challenges that the likes of Facebook can think up.

The technical interview is flawed, on both sides

[strangluv2]

I have been on the hiring side, and the job seeker side many times.

I conclude on the job seeker side, just go with the flow, after you have been at it a bit you see the standard questions and puzzles. This tells the employer nothing, as these questions get around and the solutions are well known and on the net. When presented with these, I solve them for the free lunch, dinner, drinks job offer and trip; and then go, decide not to join, and for good reason.

The management speak troubles me more; after you have passed the puzzles, had the lunch with the engineering team and are now on with management for the afternoon and evening, I cringe at the rerun of catch phrases, that show no thinking whatsoever or original thought by leading mangagement, as to who I am and why I am here:

"Give me your 30 second elevator speech"
"What is your worst failure, and what did you do about it?"
"Describe your skillset, and convince me there is a match"

On the hiring side, I have been most successful to get the candidate to open up, and talk about projects and accomplishments. This lets me get into the past work history in a non confrontational way; ask for a story, let me pry into the technical issues with you and see your thought process for their resolution. This also gives me indications about the personality and style of the candidate.

We are going to work together, this is a marriage, we will probably spend more time together per week that with your wife. I need to know that you and I are compatible, and I have a short time to do it.

The current style does not support this idea, yet is far more important and successful than the puzzle interview.

Riddle

[jbov]

You are abducted by savages, who intend to kill you. You can choose your manner of death by making a true or false statement. If you make a true statement, you will be submersed in boiling water. If you make a false statement, you will be burned at the stake.

What statement, if any, can you make to save your life?

Re:Riddle

[jc42]

Well, I'd just say "I'll be burned at the stake."

There are lots of ways to defeat software (or humans) whose actions are based on knowing the truth or falsehood of something someone else says. That sounds like a simple concept, but there are a few logical problems with it.

I was tempted to suggest that we try polling readers about whether they could solve the puzzle, but of course the first person who gives convincing evidence of how they solved it would give away the the solution, making it impossible to know the truth value of subsequent replies.

(And I'd suggest that attributing such abduction and killing to "savages" is a quaint, old-fashioned phrasing, since nowadays they're much more likely to be agents of a "civilized" government. ;-)

just crank it out

[jbov]

If you don't want to waste your time watching the video, here is the only quote you need to hear from it.

"You don't necessarily worry about doing something the right when you're doing it in a hackathon. The most important thing is to crank something out."

Yep, that explains a lot.

Remember the list

[Anonymous Coward]

A year or two ago, a Swedish IT consultancy called Ångpanneföreningen did an interesting twist on this theme. I figured it might be relevant to share in this context.

Ångpanneföreningen released a site called www.welcometothelist.com (no longer live), which when loaded just gave you an empty screen with a command prompt ("> "). If you knew your way around a command prompt and had some brains and patience, you could command your way to a list of programming problems which you could solve using the command line interface (still in your browser). This approach became an incredible success story. 60 000 visitors from 130 countries, 10 000 registered users (you had to get your bearings in the command line interface to register), a claimed press visibility to around 5 million people, 700 000 "rounds" played, etc. All from just launching a fairly simple web site with absolutely no advertisement etc.

A video (unfortunately in Swedish, still you can see the interface etc) of the project can be found here:

http://vimeo.com/29714690/

The top results, the source code for the server, and a working live copy of the original site can be found here:

http://www.lonelyduck.se/thelist/

I am smart enough...

[Cragen]

To not want to work for Facebook.

Re:I am smart enough...

[lophophore]

Hell! You've got that right. Didja ever wonder why the producers of "The Social Network" did not get sued for libel? I didn't either.

square cover can fall through the hole.

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't that a square man-hole cover could fall through the hole when you try to put it back in whereas a round one can't?

Hope more companies do this!

[GameboyRMH]

Finally it could be a way to extract myself from such pedestrian IT work as a highly educated but poorly certified person.

How to be a Star Engineer

[Bicx]

I recently read the IEEE paper "How to be a Star Engineer" (Google it, it's a great read). The researcher conducted a study on common traits shared among the industry's top performers. Turns out that being extremely intelligent was not really a significant factor. In fact, the star engineers failed to demonstrate a commonality in any of the traditionally emphasized areas of cognitive, psychological, social, or organizational superiority. It essentially boils down to how they used their existing skills in a smart, positive manner. Effective teamwork and communication are listed as huge factors, so I don't see how an IQ test can really be the magic bullet to finding a great employee.

I got asked the man hole question

[bodland]

I said "I don't think it is appropriate for you to be asking about my sexuality."

Liars problem actually related to Facebook stuff..

[Anonymous Coward]

Turns out, the liars problem is actually silently related to stuff that Facebook programmers have to deal with on a regular basis. Behind the cute exterior, the liars problem is just a network mapping problem, so really Facebook is trying to find out if programmers can (a) Identify network mapping problems when they might not be immediately apparent, and (b) apply efficient algorithms to map those networks. Seems practical to me!

Ding ding ding

[jbov]

We have a winner!

it's the lifestyle, stupid!

[lophophore]

I expect that many of the "brilliant" engineers aren't interested in the Silicon Valley / SF / Bay Area rat race and lifestyle.

Advice to Silly Valley companies looking for top talent: geographic diversity. There's a lot of smart people in Boston, NYC, DC, RTP, Atlanta (and maybe even in the Midwest, though apparently not in Minnesota, based on the stellar grammar and writing skills of said Wong.)

Re:The technical interview is flawed, on both side

[lophophore]

I always ask them what they do when they aren't at work, and what the last book they read was. Somebody with a passion for their hobby is more interesting than somebody who "plays with their dog and watches television", and more likely to have a passion for their work... Somebody who read a Dean Koontz book as their last is probably not the deepest thinker (apologies to Mr. Koontz).

I've had some crazy and some crazy stupid interviews. I've walked away from a lot of those offers.

Re:Same type of stuff needs to be done with IT wor

[mjwalshe]

you know that the traditional apprenticeships are 4/5 years (first year spent filing and making the tea)

Fucking arrogance

[Anonymous Coward]

"might be some brilliant people out there who haven't found their way to Silicon Valley". Uh-huh, because SV has a monopoly on brilliant person desirability. Hint, Mr Yishan Wong: not every brilliant person wants to live in California. Quite possibly because of the arrogance you display.