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When Geeks Meet, Are They More Likely To Have Autistic Kids?
An anonymous reader writes "Psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen thinks scientists and engineers could be more likely to have a child with autism, an idea that is fairly common currency in Silicon Valley. But many researchers say the proof isn't there yet. From the article: 'Baron-Cohen proposes that systemizing ability can be inherited — and that in information-technology (IT) enclaves such as Silicon Valley, where hypersystemizers are more likely to meet, pair off and have children, the result is a higher incidence of autism. Back in 1997, for example, he concluded that fathers of children with autism were more than twice as likely to be engineers as were fathers of non-autistic children. But autism researchers ... found that fathers of children with autism were more likely to work in medicine, science and accountancy, as well as engineering, and less likely to have manual occupations. They suggested that these fathers were simply more likely to have reached a higher level of education. Baron-Cohen says that when he reanalysed the data and controlled for education level, he found that fathers of children with autism were still more likely to be engineers, although the difference was smaller.'"
I thought he just made films about annoying people..
Who else said, "wait, is that Ali G?"
Isn't this a dupe?
Wasn't it a terrible story the first time around?
If it were true, that would imply that when geek guys meet geek girls, they get it on, instead of just looking awkwardly at each other.
I am officially gone from
Parents that are in better paid positions such as engineering ones are more likely to be able to afford to have their children properly diagnosed. Poor children with learning disabilities are just lumped into the "stupid poor kids" category.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
Uh? If the mechanisms and inheritance are better understood it can lead ways to alleviate or avoid the condition. As someone who's significant other is officially diagnosed Aspie and a software engineer I'd like to know my odds and all the ways I could mitigate the risks. I would be perfectly fine with another Aspie/high functioning autistic in the family, but the more severe end of the scale scares me profoundly.
If a kid was socially awkward, we just called them shy or socially awkward (or geek and dorkwad on the pejorative side). Now every kid who isn't happy all day and whistling zippidty-do-da out his ass 24-7 has some kind of disorder. Not to dismiss those who legitimately have real autism (and they are out there), but all this "My kid has autism spectrum disorder/Asperger's," etc. shit has gotten ridiculous. Between that and all these ADHD kids (we called that hyperactive or just "rebellious" when I was a kid), these kids are so doped-up that I'm amazed they can even walk upright. Christ, NOBODY took medication when I was in school (except for one diabetic kid we had). And I don't recall meeting a single kid that had a "peanut allergy" before a public hysteria began over it.
Now get off my lawn!!
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
At a recent speaking engagement, Temple Grandin (who knows a thing or two about autism) said that Steve Jobs was definitely "an Aspy" and that there are many more in Silicon Valley but she won't use their names because they're still alive.
I've heard that older fathers are more likely to have kids with autism (think it was on the news), and isn't it more likely that a man with a lengthy education get kids later? And it maybe takes the nerdiest ones a bit longer to find a mate... (Like me)
And I don't recall meeting a single kid that had a "peanut allergy" before a public hysteria began over it.
Yeah, that's because they all died when they ate their first peanut butter & jelly sandwich.
When I was a kid 24.679 years ago I had 4 kids in my 9am class with special needs, 2 in my 10 am class, 6 in my 11 am class, and 5 in my noon class. I had an average of 4.25 kids with special needs in my classes. There was only a 0.003% mention of incidence of autism on a daily sliding window basis but that didn't matter because we all got the same number of pencils, exactly 1 per week for the school year for 36 weeks of school, but on leap years we didn't get an extra 0.00555 pencils which I thought was wrong, nor did anyone take into account the total length of carbon trace each of us used or the exact pressure each of used pushed with.
When I was a kid we didn't have autism.
... to give it it's proper name. Basically, people with similar behaviours end to seek out each others company. For example, heavy drinking smokers will probably find themselves at the bar or outside in smokers' alley. Similarly, ability to survive economically will determine where people can live. If some of these behaviours are genetically determined then they are also more likely to reproduce and so lead to a concentration of those genetic predispositions. But, and this is the bit but, there's a very thin thread between genes and complex behaviours, despite what you might read in the papers. There is a breathtaking array of interactions between, for example, genes and environment in producing behaviour and that are far from being properly inderstood that Baron-Cohen's thesis is, to put it mildly, overinterpreting the available evidence.
my scraggly brown locks do nothing to protect me
Perhaps you need to specify 'ask me biology questions in my journal'?
My God, it's Full of Source!
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Look -- there _has_ to be some downside to intelligence. Neuroses, depression, whatever. Otherwise, the entire human race would have self-selected for some higher intelligence level than IQavg=98 sd=15 .
There has been more than enough evolutionary time to estabilsh equilibria during the agriculture phase (5ky), probably also during the industrial phase (150y), but not yet enough during the info phase (50y).
And I don't recall meeting a single kid that had a "peanut allergy" before a public hysteria began over it.
The predominant method of roasting peanuts changed in the 80's to a faster, higher-temperature process that changes the protein profile of the resulting peanut products. Most people don't seem to have a problem with this.
I don't know of a good study comparing the two (or how one could ethically design such a study).
My God, it's Full of Source!
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Geeks are not more likely to have autistic kids.
- but there is a very high probability that they will have kids that are indistinguishable from autistic kids.
Actually, I'm curious to know how this breaks down by race. Also, how many of these children are of mixed-race parents? It's generally good to have mixed race children as they're often more healthy than "old-blood" regional pairing. Of course, with mass-transit these days in every major country, it's not much of an issue as it once was 50 years ago. So that should help.
Life is not for the lazy.
Agreed, and the reason why we have supposed "higher rate of autism" as engineers is that engineers usually realize they have no business trying to sort out emotional problems, they seek out professionals "who know better" by taking the misbehaving child to a psycologist, and the psych says "why yes, your child misbehaves, here are some drugs" and we dope the kid up.
The non engineering parents with the lower rates of autism usually don't bother with taking the child to the doctor because they don't see a need for it, they realize that kids will be kids and they use a modicum of discipline to address the behavior issue.
Most of today's autism issues are a simple case of "yeah, you're a child, you're not an adult and not capable of making adult decisions yet, so you still need to do what I say until you're legally an adult, then you can go and screw up your life as you see fit". Most parents today, especially those in a "professional" capacity, will rarely discpline their kids or even act like parents at all, most cases of autism I have dealt with are merely children acting out because the boundaries are not clearly defined by their parents and the parents not having any fucking clue what to do with the kids.
most cases of autism I have dealt with are merely children acting out because the boundaries are not clearly defined by their parents and the parents not having any fucking clue what to do with the kids.
The Bullshit is strong in this one.
I can't condone studies that perpetuate a stereotype at the expense of a vulnerable group.
Quite
can you imagine the PC crowd if it read "when Muslims meet they are more likely to have terrorist children"?
the town i live in has a lot of "troubled youth" schools. i'm fairly familiar with the acting-up kid circuit.
http://g.co/maps/8vagy
that AC is actually right more than you know. the punks come in 2 kinds: the actual punks; and kids who've barely acted out (or even not at all) and their upwardly mobile parents didn't have the time/patience/interest to expend so they pay $$$ to have their kid locked up.
you could come see this first hand by working at any of the MANY fine establishments... there is such a massive market here because of the sheer number of California yuppies who have no idea what to do with their kids. it is an inconvenience to them, so they outsource.
i'm sure you won't change your opinion on this matter, but this is the truth.
THL phish sticks
So what does acting up have to do with autism? I know an adult who has never spoken in his life, likes to sit on cars, play with his own feces, and can be cajoled into doing some basic household chores. He rarely acts up as long as you don't put him in strange situations. That's tip of the iceberg for dealing with someone with severe autism. Maybe some physician or psychologist is overdiagnosing some flavor of autism, but that strikes me as being unlikely.
When you speak of kids "acting up", I figure that's some flavor of attention deficit disorder, which I gather is routinely abused as a diagnosis and overmedicated.
It doesn't strike me that the original poster knows or for that matter, cares about the difference between these various mental handicaps. Instead they're just using terms of the field in order to troll for responses. Ask yourself this, would a sincere professional in this area write that engineers are more likely to dope their kids up?
Fourth, in the old days, such awkward/geeky people didn't get much chance to reproduce.
I don't think this is true. I think in the old days such people were much more likely to reproduce with a partner who is more "normal", though, because it was harder to find a mate with similar characteristics. Instead, they just found someone who was less desirable in other ways. For example, uglier.
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Thats what id like to know. I remember working a bounce ride at a childrens party in which an autistic child was in attendance. He got on the ride and would not come off when time was up. I tried to coax him off when his mother came to me and told me that her son had autism. She explained it as a sort of disconnection with the world, he was in his own little world and is unable to understand and socially interact normally with other people. So I just left him on the ride. He would just run around and bump into kids while laughing. As I sat down by the edge of the ride he would come around and just hug me. His mother was actually very surprised because he didn't interact like that with other people. He was all smiles and giggles, nothing bad about him. He just didn't listen because he didn't understand. Finally he tired out after 20 minutes and just curled up in the middle of the bounce ride while all the other children were jumping around. His mother had to go in and get him out. That is how I understand autism, a disconnection with the surrounding world.
Maybe to some that could be misinterpreted as acting out but in reality I understood that he wasn't aware of what he was doing. He was in his own world and did not understand what he was doing. If you have some spoiled undisciplined brat then no they aren't autistic, just brats because they weren't raised properly.
Concerning the article, My bet is since the two parents met at work or other professional gatherings, they both are working. Also both parents probably relocated to their place of work meaning there are no grandparents/family around. The kids are looked after by nannies and day care services. The parents probably don't interact with their kids as much as they should be. Thats not how you raise children.
Both of my parents hold masters degrees. After my mother had me, she stopped working. My father ran his own business and made enough money to support us and my mother became a homemaker (Her decision) and never complained about it. Both sets of grandparents were in the same neighborhood, my mothers parents were a 3 minute walk and my fathers parents a 10 minute drive. If my parents were going out, my grandmother would walk over and watch me and my brother or we were dropped off at her house. We never had a nanny. Once in a while my aunt would watch us as well, all family members were were familiar with. And my father always made time for the family, he had a trusted manager and would frequently take vacations with us (little trips to Vermont, we live in NYC). That simple upbringing was important because it reinforced social ties with both parents and immediate family members. These kids probably feel abandoned, distant or unloved by their parents.