Slashdot Mirror
Iranian Police Tracking Dissidents Using Tech From Western Companies
chrb writes "A recent article at Bloomberg discusses Western companies supplying monitoring equipment to Iran. There are few regulations restricting the sale of intelligence monitoring systems to the Iranian government, and large corporations like Ericsson and Nokia have supplied the equipment used to identify dissidents and suppress anti-government protests. '[One such system from Creativity Software] can record a person’s location every 15 seconds — eight times more frequently than a similar system the company sold in Yemen, according to company documents. A tool called "geofences" triggers an alarm when two targets come in close proximity to each other. The system also stores the data and can generate reports of a person's movements. A former Creativity Software manager said the Iran system was far more sophisticated than any other systems the company had sold in the Middle East.'"
Hey, we're not in business to preserve human rights. In fact, we would be legally liable for failing our fiduciary duty to our shareholders if we failed to pursue the lucrative oppression-assistance market. We were incorporated to pursue profit and, by golly, that's what we're doing!
Now if we could just get our Western governments to stop using the same bullshit...
To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
An Episode of Leverage?
That was my first thought.
I wonder if, like the episode, the whole system is running on some 80s-era desktop sitting in some guy's man cave.
Personally I'm more concerned about this tech being used to track people in Western nations.
Let me just say: fuck Creativity Software and fuck any programmer willing to work for them. There's this thing called 'ethics' and if they choose to violate the most basic premises to enable people to do shit like this, the outcomes are also on *their* heads. None of this "just doing my job" bullshit.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
FYI - I couldn't be more against despotic regimes, I don't fly because of the TSA... I'm not an apologist. /Syria was before this one)
I do; however, have the same question anytime this article runs on Slashdot (Bluecoat
If you are Ericcson/Cisco/Bluecoat/Juniper/etc, how do you ensure your tech never ends up being used for "evil"?
Who is evil? Should network filtering equipment be declared munitions and its export controlled? Should they include a killswitch so if it gets in the hands of an evil dictator it can be disabled? Should Nokia do background checks on all potential buyers to try to predict whether or not they are straw purchasers for evil entities?
Both of those ideas some either really far fetched, impractical, or inethical in themselves... so my question is - if you feel a hatin' rising up after reading this about Ericcson/Nokia - what should they do?
mov ah, 4ch
int 21h
Most of the weapons that have flooded the third world come from Russia (or the Soviet Union in the past), China or a handful of other countries that routinely ignore international law and protocol on arms dealing. Where was the outrage when the Libyan rebels found all of those brand new Chinese weapons from the Chinese state-owned weapons makers in Gaddafi's posession? Ever notice the dearth of American weapons in all of the third world killing zones?
Frankly, I don't think the pursuit of profit is any more crass than the pursuit of political influence. Either way, you are putting your own good above doing the right thing.
Why not turn the tables? I'd love to see a website that tracks the companies that help violate human rights. I'd also like to see it tied to products. In the market for a cell phone? Find out if the maker of your cell phone helps Iran oppress its own people. Or maybe a badge system maintained by Amnesty International, where the badge is displayed if there are no violations, and revoked when something like this comes to light... Let's track the companies that track citizens, and make it easier to put some economic pressure on them.
Change the word "Dissidents" to "Terrorists" and this would be a good story.
I blame Battlefield 3 - It's all a plot by Sweden, actually. They are manipulating us via amazing video games.
Hold on, I just dropped my tinfoil hat.... erm... actually, Sweden is amazing and totally innocent, and DICE is the best studio in the whole universe. EA is even better. Iran has a really fair government that clearly loves their people, and everyone should trust the Federal reserve, they're heart is in the right place.
mov ah, 4ch
int 21h
Didn't past articles say they were smuggled into Iran by Dubai-based buyers?
I guess we can have a debate about how many degrees of separation is needed for effective export restrictions, but I don't know how we can ever draw the lines to be reasonable.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
they're heart is in the right place.
They are heart is in the right place? What does that mean?
Thanks, my pedantic friend. I award you 3 internets for catching my lackadaisical usage of grammar and relying to heavily on Chromium's spellcheck.
I announce the world, in apology, that I should have used "their" to indicate possession, not the ugly mistake of a misplaced homophone.
I hid a similar error in the second sentence of this apology, mostly for your schadenfreude. It's the least I can do.
mov ah, 4ch
int 21h
You're praising EA?!?!? Did a brain slug land on your head right after your tin foil hat fell off?
If what I just said sounded like a troll, it was probably just a failed attempt at humor.
Thanks, my pedantic friend. I award you 3 internets for catching my lackadaisical usage of grammar and relying to heavily on Chromium's spellcheck.
That's what you get for using Chromium instead of Internet Explorer, you unwashed hippy.
Then you didn't actually play BF3 did you?
SPOILER: A renegade was manipulating everyone, and the only reason Russia is involved is because they want to get their nukes back before anyone realizes they lost them to begin with.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
I think it means you lack the flexibility to interpret language in practice.
What, are you a computer? Deal with it, it wasn't hard to understand the intended meaning from context.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Your post is a bit incoherent - are you trying to accuse me of being paranoid?
Here's some reading for you.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/02/uk-military-iran-attack-nuclear
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/03/iran-nuclear-ambitions-secret-war
Come back when you have a clearer picture of your country's current political strategy.
You can never know everything, and part of what you do know will always be wrong. Perhaps even the most important part.
Back in WWII IBM's Brazilian division kept working with and suppling IBM's German division. The IBM's Hollerith punch card system was updated to be the workflow system for the holocaust. According to the author of the book IBM and the Holocaust when IBM USA found out IBM Brazil was still working with German division their response was a request no longer to be told of the activities. At the same time IBM was one of the few companies that knew when the D-Day invasion would be as it was actively using computer power to predict the best weather for the invasion.
Why should this come as a surprise to anyone?
Isn't that the line we can always use? The same thing should apply here. Minus the 7-day wait period, of course.
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
Britain's armed forces are stepping up their contingency planning for potential military action against Iran amid mounting concern about Tehran's nuclear enrichment programme, the Guardian has learned.
The Ministry of Defence believes the US may decide to fast-forward plans for targeted missile strikes at some key Iranian facilities. British officials say that if Washington presses ahead it will seek, and receive, UK military help for any mission, despite some deep reservations within the coalition government.
In anticipation of a potential attack, British military planners are examining where best to deploy Royal Navy ships and submarines equipped with Tomahawk cruise missiles over the coming months as part of what would be an air and sea campaign.
They also believe the US would ask permission to launch attacks from Diego Garcia, the British Indian ocean territory, which the Americans have used previously for conflicts in the Middle East.
You can never know everything, and part of what you do know will always be wrong. Perhaps even the most important part.
Oh, I think I have a really clear picture of my countries' political strategy. Coinsidering I'm stuck with it, and no candidate I vote for makes a difference, and I am forced to pay into it (our military spending is 2 magnitudes bigger than what we spend on education), it's somewhat depressing to think about. Occasionally, I intentionally try to blind myself by making levity of the situation because it is truly depressing.
My comment was meant as a goofy side note, I don't want to water down your message - more power to you.
mov ah, 4ch
int 21h
You must be joking. The US is the world's largest exporter of weapons. Amongst the countries the US exports weapons to, Egypt, Yemen, Pakistan and Israel have recently been in the news for their "killing fields".
Of course, what the US govt does is make a list of evil doers and good guys. This list has little to do with killing fields or human rights, but rather political convenience and the lobbying of the arms industry. Then when someone sells to the side that the US govt doesn't like or couldn't sell to, there is much screaming about "international protocol" (ie. the list drawn up by the US and its rapidly dwindling allies).
Just because the US makes a list doesn't mean it's true or anyone else accepts it—don't be such a tool.
In fact, we would be legally liable for failing our fiduciary duty to our shareholders
This is not strictly true, though it is often quoted from someplace, usually someoneâ(TM)s ass.
A company has the responsibility to do what is best for the stockholders. There is NO law requiring publically traded companies to pursue profit above all other considerations.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
I know, that might have been the most flagrant remark, following closely behind the idea of trusting the Fed... :P
mov ah, 4ch
int 21h
Bingo. For crying out loud, someone please mod this up.
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
HAD to find a way to pin this on us, huh? Never mind that our companies couldn't sell the tech Iran is using because of the gazillion embargoes we have on them... The U.S. is SOMEHOW the evil, manipulating on here... Things have been bad between us and Iran since before I was born and we haven't glassed them yet. Besides, you say that like Iran isn't ACTUALLY an oppressive country.
Honestly, I think the article does more to damage the reputations of the European companies mentioned. Western countries in general (the US included) are pretty bad with the whole tracking thing anymore. Still, when you add in activists being terrorized by dictators using the tech the West made to make money (ignoring the fact that dangerous governments could use it to this effect), well... I know of people who still haven't forgiven IBM or Bayer for their involvement with the Nazis way back in the day. I guess individuals within the company might actually regret the harm their product caused but I think we've all figured out by now that companies, themselves, lack the ability to feel sympathy or regret.
Besides, taking out the Iranian government would have made more sense than doing what we did to Iraq. The Iranian citizens have shown a far greater desire for revolution/democracy/etc than the Iraqis did.
Only countries that US and Israel deem adversaries are monitoring people and infringing on civil liberties. That's right, Echelon doesn't exist and people that US is monitoring are either terrorists, either software pirates, either pedophiles.
western corporations are completely amoral entities designed to generate obscene amounts of money
and would, if not thoroughly regulated by the united states government, export everything from toothpicks to
nuclear ICBMs to foreign countries just to turn a profit.
dont like it? use open source. at least then you didnt help finance the company that thinks its ok for despots and tyrants
to oppress their people, and you're part of something that helps liberate them.
Good people go to bed earlier.
WOOOOOOOSH!!!
Should they include a killswitch so if it gets in the hands of an evil dictator it can be disabled?
Why not? It would strongly discourage the act. Who cares if you lose sales from it? It surely isn't significant. Then again, why even produce such software? In what case is it appropriate, and in which legitimate case is there no alternate means of achieving the desired goal?
Twinstiq, game news
The fact the tools exist is the issue, not necessarily who is using them. right?
If the US is using the same tool as Iran... it is really the same issue unless you are going to believe that the US is only going to use it correctly.
Ahem, the joke is that simply losing one's tin foil hat is not enough to say good things about EA and that something much more extreme(like a brain slug) would be needed to even think of such a thing.
"WOOOOOOOSH" indeed.
If what I just said sounded like a troll, it was probably just a failed attempt at humor.
I think it means you lack the flexibility to interpret language in practice.
What, are you a computer? Deal with it, it wasn't hard to understand the intended meaning from context.
No it isn't hard. It is annoying to have to do a double take when the meaning is obfuscated by illiteracy.
The easiest thing to do is to just skip it, and move on to something written in English. The hard thing to do is to let people know that their literacy has been found wanting, because they probably don't care.
Then you didn't actually play BF3 did you?
SPOILER: A renegade was manipulating everyone, and the only reason Russia is involved is because they want to get their nukes back before anyone realizes they lost them to begin with.
That doesn't sound like the Battlefield 3 I know. The only renegade I'm familiar with is that ass that just blew up the jeep I was trying to hop into with our base AA.
Oh, I see. You must have made the mistake of clicking on "Campaign." That's actually just there as punishment for anyone unfamiliar with the Battlefield series - it isn't actually meant to be, you know, played.
That's right, they have the morals of a psychotic, i.e. none.
And you have given them personhood, and now they (the psychotics) own your country. They have given themselves all the rights and have taken/are taking, yours away. What do you expect when you hand over the helm to a bunch of psychos? (Oh yeah, trickle down economics, sure, that works.)
Many oppressive regimes use open source to do the same as well. Does the slashdot community care about that?
Or right. In which case one side is the US and the other is Russia.
What does this have to do with the Middle East again?
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Yea, a missing or extraneous punctuation mark makes that so hard. It's not like he dropped any letters or words...
If this was paper, youd (see what I did there?) be screwed if printing was even slightly off or damaged.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Bet they used the Internet as well to perpetuate these crimes.
It's so silly to condemn tech companies for doing business with "Bad Guys." It's not our (US citizens) job to be world police, and part of that means we don't get to decide who's a big bad government and who's all good (I.E. it's stupid to say any non-white/non-christian-based/non-democratic government is evil). One mans political dissident is another man's terrorist. Sure in some cases it's pretty clear cut (humorist writes funny cartoon about scary dictator who wears funny hat and gets thrown in the slammer), but in others, not so much, and it's not our place to decide. Either we should disallow all foreign sales of arms/surveillance tech/etc or permit it to every country. My preference would be to disallow, since selling things like that merely empowers rich people the world over to screw poor people, but either way, I think neutrality is more important.
Ze Atomic Device! It iz Ztolen!
Nobody, except the sickest, craziest Zionists and right-wing Republicans -- is that stupid. Like the Burmese junta, the mad mullahs of Tehran are a hydra-headed beast; cutting off a few heads won't destroy the beast. With this lot, change clearly has to come from within.
Or should I say, their system needs a few decades to rot from within; their ideological rigidity and zeal will ensure that they won't be able to adapt to circumstances, and they'll eventually be blown away by the winds of change before they even know what hit them.
So what, if these monkeys get nukes? If they ever dare to use them, they'll be obliterated, and they know it. Even animals have survival instincts. Why not just LET them waste the money and resources building useless weapons. A dollar spent building a centrifuge, is a dollar not spent on far more threatening conventional arms, or terror operations.
All we have to do is sit back, play the long game, and wait.
No actually it was the difference between "they're" and "their".
We should be more worried by Our police tracking US with OUR technology.. Drones in Houston anyone?
er... oops?
Still. If read aloud (physically or in your head) you should hear the same (or very similar) sound. This should not be very difficult to puzzle out.
I remember working through less easy issues in a first-year Spanish class, so there really is no excuse for being such a bitch about it.
We're not writing term papers or treaties, here.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
So I agree it was unethical for the company to sell them software.. We all get that. Libya got all thier weapons from the EU (italy, germany,france, UK). The U.S. just did a 60 billion dollar arms package with Saudi Arabia. Attack helicopters to Turkey (so they can get revenge against the Kurds. Half the shit we blew up in Iraq was American made. These are GUNS AND BULLETS, not software. Hell, last year (13 months ago) we did a 5 year multi million dollar arms package with PAKISTAN (you know, the stuff that's killing our guys in Afganistan?). Which is a 30% increase in our past arms deals with Pakistan. Half the middle east is armed by the United States directly or indirectly (with things that have no other purpose than to kill another human being), and your getting bent out of shape about software. Seems kind of petty when you put out a couple hundred BILLION dollars worth of US/EU/Russian weapons that went out in the last few years or so.
What needs to happen is for every shareholder to be aware of exactly what it is they are buying into. If I buy a share that is responsible for killing someone I must be made accountable for it. Is there a legal framework for this already? That is, when Enron happened can we pursue shareholders seeing as no knowledge is no defense.
Too many people buy shares recklessly, many without knowing exactly what it is they are creating.
A blog I run for the wealth
The Iranian government was put in place by the Iranian people, and the fact a few students and others object doesn't change that.
If US companies want to legally sell equipment to a democracy, so what?
Wake me when the Iranian protesters have the same level of dedication the Libyans just displayed.
Iranians aren't serious until they start wearing suicide vests into police stations and literally "offing the pigs". People who REALLY want freedom are delighted to kill for it.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Most people don't think about it, and so don't recognize that most of the most boring and repetitious low-level computer program writing is farmed out to third-world workers. People in places where repetitious work that people in the first world want someone else to do is paying work and the skills are therefore worth learning. They are skills that can get one a job, that developing can get one a better job, and developing real expertise in, so one knows computer language from Boolean up, may even get one a visa to work in the USA or Europe.
Or get one a prestigious job with ones own government, scanning for malicious code that may have been included in purchased software and systems-ware. To be looked for especially if the systems suppliers' home nations may be antagonistic to ones own third-world nation, or neighbors, or for insurance, in case a system supplier may be susceptible to economic and other kinds of arm-twisting by important customers or others.
It is one of the ironies of computer-world warfare and computer programing grunt-work being out-sourced, that career-seekers in rich and powerful nations tend to have higher level language skills and be dependent on those in less developed nations for the lower level language skills, and so, if and when a crisis should develop, be, first, behind the curve, second, dependent on ones they want to drop their spyware on for fundamental parts of the spyware theywant to drop, and, three, may start a contest with a "lowly" nation unaware they are already disadvantaged.
It is the Native American Error. Native Americans adopted firearm technology without developing powder-making and metalurgy skills, and so were dependent on their enemies for what they needed to fight their enemies.
http://events.ccc.de/congress/2009/Fahrplan/events/3706.en.html
see what is difference between democracy and totalitarian regime at 2:22
So, here's a thought. How about an arms race? Really all this sort of thing does is create an opportunity for another company to create a product that defeats the offending company's product. Then the "good" company can sell the product to the dissidents who are being harmed by the "bad" company's actions. The problem with ethical dilemmas like this is that there will always be a group of people who will take profit over anything else. I just see this as another capitalistic opportunity. Heck, you might even get an entity like Mossad to buy and distribute the counter measure thereby alleviating the financial burden on the dissidents.
is THE proving ground for Barak Obama's and DHS's Secure America State Tactics Program soon to be visited upon you at your very door step.
)
Not
You do realize that western governments are using the same tech to track their dissidents too? Right? That is why those capabilities were put into the tech products in the first place.
Ask intel
Ok, so I'm not going to comment on the story, but the complete and utter bullshit summary compared to the article.
Slashdot says "Western Companies like Ericcson and Nokia"
Article says EUROPEAN Companies like Stockholm-based Ericsson AB and only mentions Nokia in passing by pointing out how the European Parliamentary Hearings were pure hypocrisy in light of This particular story.
So yeah, word of advice to Soulskill- your own colon is not a good place to be finding news.