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Why Do So Many College Science Majors Drop Out?

Hugh Pickens writes "Christopher Drew writes that President Obama and industry groups have called on colleges to graduate 10,000 more engineers a year and 100,000 new teachers with majors in science, technology, engineering and math but studies find that roughly 40 percent of students planning engineering and science majors end up switching to other subjects or failing to get any degree — 60 percent when pre-medical students are included. Middle and high school students are having most of the fun, building their erector sets and dropping eggs into water to test the first law of motion, but the excitement quickly fades as students brush up against the reality of what David E. Goldberg calls 'the math-science death march' as freshmen in college wade through a blizzard of calculus, physics and chemistry in lecture halls with hundreds of other students where many wash out. 'Treating the freshman year as a "sink or swim" experience and accepting attrition as inevitable,' says a report by the National Academy of Engineering, 'is both unfair to students and wasteful of resources and faculty time.' But help is on the way. In September, the Association of American Universities announced a five-year initiative to encourage faculty members in the STEM fields to use more interactive teaching techniques (PDF)."

17 of 841 comments (clear)

  1. High school doesn't prepare you for college by Nemilar · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Public high school STEM classes are nowhere near sufficient as far as preparing students for a university-level STEM courseload is concerned.

    Maybe if we made public education more about actually teaching and challenging students, rather than a game to see how you can bend the rules to pass the most students, then the first year of college wouldn't be such a difficult experience.

    --
    Nemilar http://www.techthrob.com - Visit Me!
    1. Re:High school doesn't prepare you for college by peragrin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly my high school didlittle to prepare me for actuallysurviving college. In high school I could sleep through most classes and get A and B on everything but handwriting.

      We need to separate out students and challenge them all. Different people learn in different ways. Our system only teaches in one way

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    2. Re:High school doesn't prepare you for college by masternerdguy · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I'd like to remind you that many students in high school can barely handle Algebra III/Precalculus (whatever you call it). If you're proposing making Calculus a graduation requirement for high school or something moronic like that, you're going to do a lot of damage. I'm a college freshman right now, so I actually do remember my senior year of high school very well.

      But I'm not blaming students, I'm blaming the curriculum and instruction methods in high schools. High school math classes don't have enough time to teach the material. Every high school math class I was in dedicated the first half of the class to going over homework sets (generally 10-40 problems of varying complexity) which takes away from instructional time. Many math classes ran out of time so if you wanted to get the last 10 minutes of the lesson you had to stay after class (how exactly is this supposed to work in a world where your next class starts in 6 minutes, unlike college where you might have 2 hours to your next class). I went to 3 different high schools in 2 different states, and this was a general theme everywhere.

      I've also done 2 years of physics, at 2 different high schools, and those were well taught classes that had time to cover their material. They didn't go over homework at the start of class. In fact, one of my teachers didn't actually grade the homework, just strongly advised doing it. There was an extremely strong relationship between doing the homework and passing, and everyone figured that out very quickly. Even though the homework wasn't graded, everyone who cared about the class still completed it.

      --
      To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
    3. Re:High school doesn't prepare you for college by rolfwind · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Let me put forth some propositions:

      a) Many science/math teachers suck. Maybe it's because nerds tends towards autism spectrum, but I had teachers who couldn't communicate worth a damn. Of the ones who could speak english (some were imports and didn't master the language yet), many took delight in speaking in jargon and not english. One guy I knew prided himself on failing 3/4 of the class. And yes, college is hard (at least science/math) and it should be, but there is little excuse to obfuscate things.

      Some teachers didn't suck, but they were the exception not the rule. They were a joy to have. When those didn't come up. Guess what? Learn from the book and just hope that's what the teacher tests you on.

      b) Lack of hands on experience. Some of the best programmers I worked with never took college. Some of the worst graduated college but were fresh out, but couldn't program anything more complex than hello world in less than a day. Okay, a bit exaggerated, but it was like they were all theory and never sat down to program for fun.

      c) I read 10 years ago that 30% of freshmen dropped out anyway. Assuming this is par for the course still, perhaps this 40% is not a big dea.

      d) Not so much a proposition, but college shouldn't be the end of the world or beginning. There shouldn't be a monopoly on education nor should all the jobs that want degrees really even need them. Germany has a much better apprenticeship system, where you actually get paid a small amount to learn on the job and taught by a master for several years. Not like here where you get taught a bunch of unrelated classes, some focus on what may (or may not) be in your future job -- and then justify the $10's of thousands expense by calling you "educated" (or some other chestpuffing adjective you can lord over other less inclined) and not one of those "lowly tradesmen". (I've seen that here a lot).

      I mean, get real, most Comp. Sci. grads won't become academics or push the edge, but most programmers get taught in college as if they were. Now, if they were to become Engineers (the real thing, with a rigorous test and certification and all that), it's a different story, but there really isn't much in this field like that.

    4. Re:High school doesn't prepare you for college by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't think it's high school's fault. The problem lies in the fact that doing well in those types of courses requires a certain type of analytic thinking that is simply not that intuitive for most people.

      I graduated with a bachelors of science from an engineering focused university. I like math and science and use both in my work daily. The problem I saw was that the introductory classes were treated specifically as a way to weed out some of the students with mindless busywork. First year chemistry was an entire year of several hundred students in a giant lecture hall memorizing the periodic table, memorizing ion charges, and (in short) doing nothing at all relating to science or the type of problem solving or analytical thought actually needed to be a competent scientist. Something like half the people who took those chemistry classes switched to another major or dropped out, but I seriously doubt there was a strong correlation with those that would be good at science.

      The introductory math classes were little better with huge classes where you were supposed to memorize formulas and methodologies and then apply them, with lots of minor mistakes, on paper. The only use they had was helping students learn a good balance of speed versus meticulousness. At least in introductory computer science you actually did some programming and did some of the nuts and bolts work of making a computer work for you. In general, however, it felt like teachers with no interest doing as little work as possible by forcing a lot of rote memorization for no real purpose other than to weed out students so there were more manageable class sizes going forward. It was as though all the advances in educational theory and methodology over the last 100 years were intentionally ignored.

  2. Pretty simple explanation... by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...because STEM majors are so much more demanding than others. In addition to having heavier workloads, everything builds on everything else - if you fall behind, or don't master a particular fundamental like calculus or kinematics or chemical bonding, you're fucked. If you're getting a degree in English, and you don't master Blake, it's not going to have any impact on your study of Wordsworth, unless your thesis is a comparison of the two.

    --
    My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
    1. Re:Pretty simple explanation... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 5, Interesting

      ....because STEM majors are so much more demanding than others ... if you fall behind ... you're fucked ... If you're getting a degree in English ...

      And yet, look at the way the two are taught. My Freshman bio class had 190 students with two assistant profs, in a auditorium, and my total freshman class was just over a thousand. Neither prof was good, the TA's were unavailable, the textbook was poorly written, and on the final the average score was 23% (I got a 44, but one nerd pulled a 62 and blew the curve). These were two hundred students who did well enough to get into Dartmouth who were utterly failed by the lack of teaching.

      In comparison, my freshman English seminar had 12 students. This was a mandatory class, so they have close to a hundred sections over the three Freshman terms. The claim is that writing can't be taught on an industrial scale but science can be. Yet, mysteriously, 60% of students are failing to succeed in the sciences.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  3. Need to model science after sports. by khasim · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Look at the emphasis on sports in high school and college. And no one is talking much about the "attrition" rate where high school / college athletes don't make pro.

    How about a science program with the same model?

    Kids are identified in high school and they take extra classes after school and in the summer so that when they do get to college they've already completed the 1st year classes in their last year of high school.

    With scholarships pretty much guaranteed for the kids in the program.

    1. Re:Need to model science after sports. by timeOday · · Score: 5, Funny

      We need lots of scientists/engineers/etc., and relatively few athletes

      If pay is any indication, this nation is suffering from a critical shortage of Senior Vice Presidents. Apple just has to pay $60,000,000 bonuses to each of its Senior Vice Presidents to to keep them from taking their unique skills to other companies where, apparently, Senior Vice Presidents might be paid even more. No word yet on the STEM folks underneath who design their products. And of course we all know what the poor schmucks who actually manufacture their goods make. Why is higher education not responding to the obvious indicators of demand? We should cancel all STEM education for the next 5-10 years and focus on the vibrant Senior Vice President sector so all Americans can get $60,000,000 bonuses.

  4. Reminds me of a joke by slasho81 · · Score: 5, Funny
    This reminds me of a joke I read here in a thread about whether pre-med students should study organic chemistry:

    A college physics professor was explaining a concept to his class when a pre-med student interrupted him. "Why do we have to learn this stuff?" he blurted out. "To save lives," the professor responded before continuing the lecture.
    A few minutes later the student spoke up again. "Wait-- how does physics save lives?" The professor responded. "By keeping idiots out of medical school."

  5. Re:...stuff they see on the Science Channel. by slick7 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Crab fishing? Ice road trucking? Paranormal investigation?

    Governments do not want a critically thinking populace. Just suck up the bullshit they, the bought dogs of the corporate states of America, want you to think and believe.
    Science and math require a solid foundation in the basics. With a solid foundation, politicians, corporate thugs and banksters cannot sway the public. Bread and circuses brought down the Roman Empire in approximately 200 years. This country is next.

    --
    The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
  6. Incentives, not challenge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Engineers and scientists are underpaid and overworked as it is. Seriously...this is true all over the country.

    Teachers, same deal.

    Adding more of them to the labor market will make these problems worse. Higher supply of workers pulls wages down, as a matter of simple economics.

    People drop out because the subjects are hard, sure. Making them fun won't make them less hard, so that won't address the problem. Asking colleges to churn out more graduates won't increase the incentives that people have to go into the field, let alone to stay in it.

    If you want more engineers, then pay them. If you want more teachers, PAY THEM. People will follow the money. It is as simple as that.

    1. Re:Incentives, not challenge by buybuydandavis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Engineers and scientists are underpaid and overworked as it is.

      Adding more of them to the labor market will make these problems worse.

      Worse, for who? Not for companies.

      "We don't have enough engineers" is largely just an excuse for allowing corporations to get exemptions to immigration laws and import indentured servants in technical fields. US schools have produced plenty of engineers. Most of them aren't in engineering.

      46 year old. Ivy League EE undergrad. Neither me nor any of my friends in undergrad spent more than 7 years as engineers. A couple jumped to business school in undergrad. After spending a couple years working, a couple went to business school, and a one went for a MSEE, and I went for a PhD in EE. MSEE worked for 5 years after graduation then went back for MBA. I worked in engineering 5 years after PhD, then moved to business IT analysis/proj mgmnt.

      The opportunities in engineering were lacking. The opportunities in business were better. There are plenty of engineers. There aren't great opportunities for them.

  7. Re:Sometimes that's the plan by sackvillian · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Some universities in my country have too many freshmen so they deliberately try to make half of them drop out.

    Which is not a bad strategy when you consider the alternative: absurdly high entrance requirements. That's the strategy that medical schools have adopted, at least up here in Canada, and it's pretty clear that trying to separate the top 1% from the top 10% for admissions doesn't make for more successful students. If anything, it selects for the hyper-competitive, the resume-builders, and/or the lucky.

    Better to let in as many as possible and let the actual material decide who really has the needed ability and passion.

    --
    Hey mate, spare a sig?
  8. Re:...stuff they see on the Science Channel. by icebraining · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not a fan of the man, but I agree with this:

    When you're young, you look at television and think, There's a conspiracy. The networks have conspired to dumb us down. But when you get a little older, you realize that's not true. The networks are in business to give people exactly what they want. That's a far more depressing thought. Conspiracy is optimistic! You can shoot the bastards! We can have a revolution! But the networks are really in business to give people what they want. It's the truth.

    -- Steve Jobs

  9. Bizarre by ahoffer0 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Here is an alternative perspective.

    In the US, there seems to be a very strong connection between universities and vocational education. I never really grokked that. I grew up thinking that universities is where people who loved to learning gathered to learn, share ideas, and advance knowledge. Education was its own reward. If one wanted to learned something practical, like something for a job, one attended a vocational school, training course, or the employer took responsibility to train their employees. I think it used to be that way.

    Somewhere along the line that seems to have changed. A four year degree has become the minimum entry criteria for a desk job. Over the last twenty years, I've had nothing but desk jobs. I've been a software developer, a business analyst and a solution architect. None of these jobs required anything more than a two year vocational degree-- 90% a motivated high school grad could have learned to do the job.

    Why is there such emphasis on university degrees in the job market? I understood that employers liked to hire university grads for certain jobs because employes knew these people could learn things on their own, enjoyed learning, and in general wanted to do a good work. I later realized that a university education had class implications and employers often want employees from certain social classes. But there is nothing wrong with vocational school, training courses, or even learning on the job. Why try to pump a quarter of your population through the university system when the needs of many of the students (and their future employers,) would be as well or better served by other avenues of learning?

    It saddens me when I see people with master's degrees in computer science spending their days executing test cases for point-of-sale systems or Web shopping carts. It saddens me when I see chemistry majors running the same water quality tests five days a week. It saddens me when I see people with advanced degrees in economics spend their working years fiddling with Excel spreadsheets to balance project budgets.

    From my perspective the system we have created is a tragic waste human capital and other resources. The indebtedness it is creating threatens to turn the next generation into indentured servants with white collars. Meanwhile, the university system continues to water down its curricula and loose its vitality.

    How did it come to this?

  10. Preparation, not incentives by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People drop out because the subjects are hard, sure. Making them fun won't make them less hard, so that won't address the problem.

    No, students do not drop subject just because they are hard. They drop them because they are hard AND they have never been academically challenged ever before. I've seen this happen numerous times with smart first year students. They are completely used to coasting through school with one cylinder firing because there is no challenge at all for them. Then, when they get to university, they are suddenly faced with material that they cannot master with a quick read through and they literally do not know how to cope.

    If we challenge even the brightest students at the school level then they will be used to having to think things through carefully and then, when they do finally understand it, they will get the sense of achievement which comes with that. Some of my colleagues who have a reputation for teaching very challenging, senior undergrad courses have some of the best student feedback because, by that point, the students like to be challenged and to succeed. Sadly though we lose a lot of students before we get there just because they are completely unprepared for university and don't know how to cope.