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BT Fiber Infrastructure Plans 'Fatal' To Competition

twoheadedboy writes "BT today revealed it is to start selling its Physical Infrastructure Access (PIA) for fiber broadband product to other providers later this month, but the announcement was met with one particularly cold response. Geo Networks, which is helping deliver superfast networks in Wales in partnership with the Welsh Assembly, said it was going to withdraw bidding for Government-provided BDUK funds and in all next-generation access sales. 'Inadequacies of the current PIA product are fatal to infrastructure competition,' he added. 'The Government's stated desire for a competitive market in the provision of new optical fiber infrastructure is at risk of complete failure.'"

28 of 100 comments (clear)

  1. main problem is backhaul by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    BT is willing to charge very little for the fibre to the customer but gouges on the fibre backhaul to the provider network. if the rest of the players had any balls they would walk out too.
    without backhaul fibre is pointless. same thing in canada with Bell charging very little per customer for 3rd party ISPs but charging $22,000 per gigE for backhaul. same set of monopolistic thieves keeping the internet at crappy levels in first world countries.

    1. Re:main problem is backhaul by jez9999 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah. It's funny how conservatives the world over always talk the talk about real competition, and yet when push comes to shove they seem the least likely to actually implement it well. They want the free market, which is very rarely the same as the competitive market.

    2. Re:main problem is backhaul by niftydude · · Score: 4, Informative

      BT was initially a government run organisation for many years before it was privatized. So they are basically a government created monopoly which was then sold off -mostly to cronies of the government of the era.

      This isn't either the free market or the competitive market at work - it is a monopoly unfairly created by the government (by which I mean the public's tax dollars) screwing everyone else over.

      --
      You can never know everything, and part of what you do know will always be wrong. Perhaps even the most important part.
    3. Re:main problem is backhaul by dadioflex · · Score: 2, Informative

      BT inherited the copper monopoly at the time, and legislation opened up their exchanges to competition. But you hit the nail on the head. BT innovate, run the infrastructure and handle all the external servicing. Even if you get your fibre product from someone other than BT, it's a BT engineer that comes out to fix it if something goes wrong.

      BT do NOT have a fibre monopoly. Talking about them as if they did is reactionary. Virgin Media, while not available to 100% of the UK and saddled with crazy debt they're slowly paying off, are generally the ones to be beaten by BT, and not the other way around.

    4. Re:main problem is backhaul by niftydude · · Score: 2

      Hmm, AC political astroturfers are out - there must be a US presidential election coming soon.

      Sorry dude - you are wasting your time. I'm not a US citizen, in fact it is fair to say that I live as far away from New York as is possible while still remaining on the surface of the Earth. So I don't really care about your politics, or rather, which particular politician you are being paid to bag.

      Also - this story is about a UK company. So please try to stay relevant to the topic at hand.

      --
      You can never know everything, and part of what you do know will always be wrong. Perhaps even the most important part.
    5. Re:main problem is backhaul by iserlohn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      BT is no longer a crown corporation. One could argue that the service it provided when it was public-owned is much better than it is now that it has privatized. Infrastructure and utilities is probably the most suitable application of a public ownership, and it has always been difficult to ensure competition in a market-based model due to the capital investment and economies of scale once the infrastructure is in place. This is prevalent in both telecommunications and energy sectors catering to the end-user.

      Of course, this also applies to things like rail transport which require extensive infrastructure - take British Rail for example.

    6. Re:main problem is backhaul by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 2

      BT have managed to keep the existing system running, innovate and run Fibre with out going bust ...

      BT had a government sanctioned competitor (Mercury) that went bust as soon as they had to actually spend money on the infrastructure they should have built, but decided they could just leech off BT ...

      Virgin, are saddled with debt because they are the result of a spending spree by various companies who merged all the fibre companies (and others) into the only real competition BT have ...

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    7. Re:main problem is backhaul by GauteL · · Score: 4, Funny

      "by which I mean the public's tax dollars"

      Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

    8. Re:main problem is backhaul by xaxa · · Score: 2

      I live as far away from New York as is possible while still remaining on the surface of the Earth

      What is the weather like in Uzbekistan this time of year?

      I reckon it's South West Australia.

      http://www.antipodemap.com/

      (Do you even know where Uzbekistan is? Opposite the southern middle Pacific. And south of Kazakhstan.)

    9. Re:main problem is backhaul by Bert64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The government should re-nationalise the infrastructure, and then run it on a break even basis...

      Physical infrastructure is a natural monopoly because if the massive up front investment required to actually build it, and the massive inefficiencies of building multiple sets, so it makes sense for this to be government controlled.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    10. Re:main problem is backhaul by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes this is something that so often gets overlooked, connection speeds get faster and faster but the data caps are getting lower... All this means is that you can hit the cap and get disconnected more quickly.

      When they offered 512k connections with no data cap, that worked out to around 150GB/month downloaded (not counting upload) if you ran it flat out... They also offered 2mb connections which could pull 600GB.
      Now they offer a 40mb connection with a 200GB limit, which in actual fact makes it more like "640k connection, burstable to 40mb for limited periods".

      What we really need, in combination with fibre, is small community ISPs... That way you can get high speed uncontended connections with those living near you, which is great for gaming and torrent like protocols... Then other common data can be cached locally too.

      And yes, the price of backhaul is ridiculous, and that just includes the line from the exchange to the isp, so even downloading from servers hosted by the ISP is costly... That's why most ISPs don't bother with caching anymore, internet transit is cheap, bt backhaul is not.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    11. Re:main problem is backhaul by Bert64 · · Score: 2

      Virgin Media is not available everywhere, are not expanding their network, and don't provide their service wholesale so you're stuck with their ISP service which means single dynamic ip, no ipv6 etc.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    12. Re:main problem is backhaul by petermgreen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I remember my parents talking about what phone service used to be like. I remember them talking of messages like "all the lines to birmingham are in use". I remember phone call prices that made the phone something you used for short calls to get important information across. Long chats on the phone were a rare indulgence.

      Nowadays the phone network seems to connect calls extremely reliably and unmetered call packages are common so you can chat as much as you like (provided you keep each individual call less than an hour).

      How much of this is down to competition (enabled by regulators forcing BT to share infrastructure) and how much is down to technological improvements I do not know

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    13. Re:main problem is backhaul by jonbryce · · Score: 2

      As far as voice calls go, it is mostly down to competition from the mobile networks. Does anyone actually use their home landline for voice calls any more?

    14. Re:main problem is backhaul by Joe+Jay+Bee · · Score: 2

      It is technological improvements mostly. Computerised switching means there is little to no human involvement in the average telephone call, which brings the cost right down. Calls are so cheap for BT and their ilk that It would be cheaper to run the entire network unmetered than it is to itemise, send out and collect payment for telephone bills.

      Line rental prices are the level they are because they are the price BT levies, and unless you've got your own LLU facilities in the exchange you have to rent subscriber lines from BT. Even if you are LLU, the last mile is still going to be BT-owned anyway. There's no escaping them.

      What should have happened with BT's privatisation is infrastructure (as currently vested in Openreach) being owned by and rented from the government at cost price, with telcos providing services over those lines. What happened is both infrastructure and telco services were privatised into one BT behemoth, with the infrastructure then later hastily sorta-kinda split off into Openreach. Who are owned by BT, and who own the entire telephone network - essentially being a private monopoly. We have all the problems of a monopoly with none of the benefits.

      Trust the Tories to have dreamed up such a stupid scheme though. A lot of people got very rich from our core telecoms network being sold off at a pisscheap price, and everyone else is still paying the price more than 20 years on.

    15. Re:main problem is backhaul by makomk · · Score: 2

      Which BT have responded by rolling out their own fibre-to-the-curb to areas with Virgin Media first, using their existing Government-funded infrastructure to undercut the competition, and leaving other areas to stew low down on the priority list. Gotta love monopolies.

    16. Re:main problem is backhaul by GameboyRMH · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hey leave your logic out of this! If the government ran the Internet's infrastructure, there would be no upgra...oh wait...well it would be bloody expensi...aw damn...well you bet they'd spy on...shit.

      The point is...shut up commie!

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    17. Re:main problem is backhaul by FireFury03 · · Score: 3

      Nowadays the phone network seems to connect calls extremely reliably and unmetered call packages are common so you can chat as much as you like (provided you keep each individual call less than an hour).

      BT's unmetered packages concern me somewhat. They are free up to an hour, but after an hour the per-minute charges are far higher than you'd pay on a metered package. What is the purpose of the hour limit? Presumably to trap people into accidentally overrunning the hour and inadvertently running up their bill. When tariffs are _designed_ to cause people to accidentally incur unexpected charges, I start questioning the ethics of the company involved...

  2. Re:The spin on this story is a bit silly by Cato · · Score: 5, Informative

    It is anticompetitive because Geo and others need to use the PIA fibre from BT to 'backhaul' from a village to a larger town or city. With the backhaul, they can provide local connections, maybe using wireless - without the backhaul, BT actually provides the connections to ISPs for resale, hence there is far less competition.

  3. Competition, yes by HopefulIntern · · Score: 4, Insightful

    BT fibre is indeed harmful to the competition. The competition being Virgin fibre. The good news is, there will no longer be a monopoly on fibre. The bad news is, those of us who do not have Virgin fibre, and live in broadband notspots, will not see any BT fibre either. Again, this is for the purposes of competition. BT have actually said they will roll out fibre to my exchange by March next year. However, the fine print says that "rolling out fibre" to the exchange means just that; to the exchange. The fibre itself will only run to select cabinets, in my case, only 50% of them. Guess which ones? The ones that already have streets cabled with Virgin fibre, so they can poach Virgin customers. BT already get my £15 per month for the abysmal 0.7mbps they provide, and have no interest in bringing me a better service since I am already paying them.

    1. Re:Competition, yes by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2

      Virgin isn't exactly much better - about 10 years ago their predecessor received a government grant to extend their network, so the town I was living in at the time had all it's roads ripped up while they laid the infrastructure out to cabinets on all street corners.

      Did we ever actually get any service? No. That cable has lain unused ever since. The grant stopped short of providing money to hook up the buildings, so it never happened.

    2. Re:Competition, yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Recently I contacted my ISP to find out why I had 750 kb/s upload and yet 40 kb/s upload since I was looking to upload some stuff to youtube and uploading 3 gig at that speed is like pulling teeth. My ISP informed me that BT uses this cap on all it's 20CN lines and the only way to get a better upload is to wait for BT to upgrade the exchange.

      BT is not only holding back the broadband industry, it's restricting the UK's access to taking part in various websites often used to discover new artists and launch careers. I don't think I'm one of them, but it's sad to see the UK is being stunted online due to corruption.

    3. Re:Competition, yes by Pax681 · · Score: 2

      How do you find out what cabinets BT is rolling out to? this is something I'm interested in seeing as my exchange is enabled but my cabinet is not.

      try this http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search
      enter your postcode and then select your exchange. it will tell you what equipments your exchange has, what LLU ISPs are availabe and when FTTC/fibre will be available bud. great site.

    4. Re:Competition, yes by Pax681 · · Score: 2

      try here then bud, sorry i mistook what you meant.
      http://www.trefor.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/exchanges.htm
      this gets updated now and then to show the latest stats and there also....
      this http://www.trefor.net/tech-pages/availability-checker/
      hope that helps bud

  4. BT Retail, or BT Wholesale? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    There is no such thing as "BT". There is "BT Retail", which rents phonelines and is an ISP. Then there is "BT Wholesale", which provides infrastructure to ISPs, including BT Retail, but also many others.

    For ADSL, that works quite well: "BT" (retail) talk to BT Wholesale in the same way that other ADSL providers do, allowing competition. The only issue is that small ISPs find it hard to compete with the big ones, because of the big jump in price bands between having a few customers, and having a few more.

    BT retail has a shitty broadband service (throttling, IP address allocation issues, and so on), so no pros are interested in their fibre. BT Wholesale's fibre SHOULD be another story, and fibre provided via other ISPs like BeThere SHOULD be fine... except that BeThere don't offer fibre yet, for some reason.

    So what's the setup for fibre? How come other ISPs aren't able to pick this up and sell it to customers? Is fibre not required to be provided wholesale? Is it being sold by BT Wholesale in a way that favors BT Retail over other providers? If so, these are issues that Ofcom should be taking VERY seriously.

    1. Re:BT Retail, or BT Wholesale? by makomk · · Score: 2

      Some of the reasons why BT Retail are shitty are actually imposed by BT Wholesale. For example, they have fairly expensive per-gigabyte charges, so BT Wholesale-based ISPs generally have low monthly usage limits. BT Wholesale also tends to break important parts of their infrastructure and not actually notice, often resulting in entire exchanges worth of customers dropping offline for several hours.

    2. Re:BT Retail, or BT Wholesale? by petermgreen · · Score: 2

      There is no such thing as "BT".

      Well there is "BT group".....

      There is "BT Retail", which rents phonelines and is an ISP. Then there is "BT Wholesale"

      Afaict with BT ADSL/phone service there are actually THREE parts of BT group involved. BT retail, BT wholesale and BT openreach.

      BT openreach maintain the physical lines.
      BT wholesale operate the ADSL/pots/etc equipment that runs on those lines
      BT retail sell service to end users.

      Big providers (like o2/be*, sky, talktalk/tiscali/etc**) can buy access to the phone lines direct off BT openreach and colocate their own POTS and/or ADSL gear in the BT exchange (a practice known as local loop unbundling). Small providers are bascially forced to buy off BT wholesale (in principle they could buy off one of the LLU providers but only if the LLU provider is willing to sell them service) and pay BT wholesale's (very high) backhaul prices. This is why you will find that most small ISPS have data usage limits and/or horrible congestion.

      The question that is being argued about at the moment is what will happen with the introduction of fiber. With most fiber networks you can't just sell access to each customers local loop because each customer no longer has a dedicated local loop. From TFA it appears that BT is planning to sell connections through the fiber network to other broadband providers but heavilly restrict what those connections can be used for.

      * o2 and be are owned by the same parent company and sell service using the same LLU infrastructure.
      ** talktalk and tiscali bought out a LOT of isps as they tried to expand their llu infrastructure

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  5. Ridiculous employment laws? by fireylord · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sigh, you mean laws that mean people can't end up being at the receiving end of an autonomous unchallengable unfair firing? This is something that people in the UK right now are rather glad of since it gives them just a little bit more job security than they would have if employers were able to treat their 'human resource' like so much chattel?

    The political axegrinders are out in force today.