Ask Slashdot: Updating a Difficult Campground Wi-Fi Design?

MahlonS writes "I am a retired network hack wintering in my RV in a campground in southern GA. 3 years ago I reconfigured the Wi-Fi system to a marginal working ability; It's now ready for a serious upgrade, prompted by a new cable net connection replacing a weak DSL. 5 dual-radio HP Curve access points connect to a 6th via single or double radio hops (effectively a Wireless Distribution System) in heavily wooded space. Unidirectional antennas at the APs (the APs are in water resistant enclosures) are placed on poles above the RVs, about 15 feet above ground. Primary hops are about 300 feet to 3 of the APs, secondary hops about the same. Signal measurements indicate that there is adequate RF between the access points. In 2008, average user count averaged about 30 users; newer devices (smart phones, etc) will likely increase that number (winter population total is about 80 RVs). While the old design worked OK when lightly loaded, I suspect that the single DSL line generated so many packet resends that the APs were flooded. This is a quasi-State Park, so money is always an issue, but there is enough squawk from the user community that a modest budget might be approved. The main AP connects to an old Cisco router. Burying wire is frowned upon, due to shallow utilities, and campfire rings that float around the campsites — sometimes melting TV cables. Since I'm not up on current Wi-Fi tech, are there solutions out there that would make this system work much better?"

Comments

Fiber

[lightknight]

It sounds like you're broadcasting from one access point to another, instead of from a wired connection to each access point.

Just run fiber to the access points. It's cheaper than you think, and forms a guaranteed, secure connection. Good for a mile, and it doesn't care about EM interference of any sort.

Re:Fiber

[vlm]

True, didn't think of that. Anyone know what the price diffference is between something like Cat. 6 and fiber?

Darn near zero. Seriously. $1 to $3 foot indoors for both, outdoors is usually strictly quote basis.

Again your experience may vary but the other difference is cat5/6 usually is terminated for "free" as part of the deal and fiber is usually terminated for like $25 per connector (in other words $50 flat fee added cost for one complete working cable). Also some CPE needs weird connectors, so many contractors will pull the fiber and let you figure out your bizarre escon-fiber or whatever, if you aren't using something standard that they can terminate.

Some fiber places want to charge extra to OTDR verify, some even try to charge extra to give the results to you.

Get a couple bids.

Stereotypes: Electricians do a great job of grounding aerial leader line and pull so hard they damage both fiber and cat5 (cat5 isn't exactly the 0000 gauge entrance facility they're used to). Also electricians have no comprehension of EMI/RFI and will run cat5 wrapped around the dirtiest industrial power line and light units. Electricians are also stereotypically poor at terminating. Geniuses at pulling cable and fishing and whats best described as "stupid conduit tricks", not so good at termination.. The "LAN/WAN/server" guys generally cannot waterproof outdoors to save their life, assume it'll leak if they get involved. The vertical market cable contractors who do one thing and one thing only are not terribly mentally flexible and freak out if you want to do anything other than bog standard cubicle wiring. All stereotypes have an element of truth and might be useful to recall when negotiating your contracts.

Re:Fiber

[gtbritishskull]

My parents (who live in the suburbs of Atlanta), had lightning hit a tree along the fence at the back of the yard. As far as we can tell, the electricity traveled along about 100ft of fence to the powered gate and blew its way into the control panel (on a wooden post 6in from the gate). The cover on the panel was literally blown off (it ended up about 15ft away from the control panel). From there we believe that it went through the power lines (for the gate) back to the detached garage. In the garage it went from a phone into the phone lines that went back to the main house and were terminated in the low voltage panel. Somehow from there it got into the ethernet network and fried 2 hubs and an ethernet port on their desktop computer.

There is no way for me to know conclusively that this is what happened, but a lightning strike on a neighbors tree (it was on their side of the fence) 30 feet from the detached garage, and 50 feet from the house fried the controls for the gate, a phone in the garage, and 2 hubs and an ethernet port in the house (I think we discovered later that some old caller ID units also got fried, and we think it was probably that strike). No one died. There were no fires. CPR was also not necessary. Probably about $500 - $600 worth of damage.

I think he should worry about lightning strikes.

Re:Fiber

[JWSmythe]

    I live in Florida. Actually, the greater Tampa area. The area is known as the lightning capital of the US. Some say world, but apparently NASA found that Rwanda currently beats us. In either case, we have to be very aware of lightning, and its dangers. Even in areas with less frequent lightning strikes, they should still be a concern.

    I don't know of any homes or structures, mobile or otherwise, that have burned down because of a lightning strike. The only people that I've known of who have suffered health issues due to lightning were standing outside. You know, folks playing golf in a thunderstorm.

    Over the years, I've had to repair and diagnose lightning strikes. I know electricity wants to go to ground, and if it were a chain link fence with steel posts, it should have gone to ground immediately. But after some of the things I've seen, it doesn't always.

    The most convoluted trail I followed was an overhead coax cable, that lead to a video digitizer. The lightning jumped to the network card, over the ethernet cable, through the switch, out another cable, and to its victim. You could see the burn marks on the network card, video card, and motherboard. There were two network ports damaged. The overheard cable, and the first machine it passed through were fine. The people on the other end of the overhead cable stated they heard an explosion, and saw a shower of sparks from the camera it was attached to. Oddly enough, the camera was fine.

    Pretty much, don't give more ways than necessary for lightning to get to anything else. Surge suppressors are nice, but for as many as I've seen destroyed, I know that they're just a nice decoration.

Re:Too high

[FooAtWFU]

Take a look at your options there and learn how to read antenna spec sheets: compare, for example, this directional antenna with this traditional one. The first one can go on a high mount somewhere and point down at all the clients in a cone (roughly) and will mostly ignore things behind it (okay if it's on the ceiling). The second one throws out most of the signal in a pancake perpendicular to its long axis. This is great, if you're in that plane, and if there aren't a lot of walls in that plane between you and it. (The first one is an indoor antenna, though; I just use it as an example.)

Too many outdoor deployments are radiating out their best coverage over everyone's heads. (You can also tilt the antenna a bit, but then you're essentially just painting stripes of coverage on the ground, which isn't ideal either.)

Marketing / Security

[vlm]

This is a quasi-State Park, so money is always an issue, but there is enough squawk from the user community that a modest budget might be approved.

because they can pull money from the marketing budget first as a lure to get people to come as a checkbox feature, secondly because you can install $100 wifi webcams at the "cool places" (pool, lakeshore, whatever) so visitors from the UK feel comfortably spied upon and the promotional web page can have "click here to see the scenic lakeshore live!" buttons.

also they can pull a little money from the security budget, because the webcams can monitor boring yet important locations like the bar's cash register, the general store cash register, the service entrance, the equipment shed (the $20K nuclear propelled lawnmower, tanks of gas for the mower, etc)

What's the equipment?

[FooAtWFU]

You think your APs are falling over due to packet volume? Are you just hooking up cheap Linksys stuff to these antennas or what? There's a reason that real enterprise-grade stuff costs more: you can throw 30 users at an access point and it doesn't crawl over into a corner and die. I favor Aruba gear, since I used to work there; Cisco stuff is also decent (but even more expensive). But they're not dirt cheap.

On the other hand, if you think the DSL router's doing crazy stuff, maybe you should focus on making it not do that crazy stuff.

900MHz FTW.

[pla]

With line of sight problems and lots of water-containing organic obstacles (aka "trees"), lower frequency means much much better signal quality. Use a 900MHz WDS and many of your problems will vanish. I know Ubiquiti offers 900MHz kit, can't say for HP.

Quasi State Park?

[Doc Ruby]

What's a "quasi-State Park"? Obligatory "Georgia is a quasi-state" joke.

What is that area really? Does Georgia allow people to live on public lands, even allow/provide utilities (however shallowly buried the wires) including cable TV and now wireless Internet? Do they make you move somewhere else to summer, after you winter in S Georgia? How often do you have to move? Do they charge you anything, like property taxes? Do you receive US Mail to your local address?

The setup sounds wonderful. Or maybe we're talking about the (maybe not so) ex Communist country Georgia.

Snark aside, my questions are serious. And it does sound wonderful.

Re:Typical RV park

[JWSmythe]

    1982 GMC RTS-04.

    I picked it for a few reasons. The biggest was the additional interior space. The cabin is larger than the MCI's. It doesn't have subfloor storage, as built at the factory, but it does have dead space in each section that measures about 5'x8'x2'. It just needs a floor and supports fabricated, and exterior doors built.

    It's about 3' shorter vertically than the MCI's, which will help get down most streets without hitting tree limbs. Pretty much, if a school bus or UPS/FedEx truck can drive the road, so can I.

    I also wanted a vehicle with a strong diesel motor. These come with a few options. Mine has a DD 6v92TA (552ci, turbocharged and supercharged), with an Allison 3 speed automatic transmission. Most of the city buses come with gearing that doesn't allow for a top sped over 60mph. It cost a few bucks, but I had it regeared for highway use.

    Last time I moved it, I was driving down the interstate perfectly happily, with my car in tow on a flat trailer. (I had a trailer hitch welded on). I was perfectly happy cruising at 75mph in the right lane. Well, until one car decided the speed limit must be 45, and stayed parked in the right lane doing that. When I had a safe chance to pass, I did. The overall vehicle length was 65' because of the trailer, so I had to be very careful changing lanes. I passed 85mph when passing, and I could still accelerate. I only wanted to get around him, and back to my cruising at the speedlimit. Even with the car in tow, it felt like driving an average full size passenger van. Acceleration, braking, and handling were all there. Actually, I've driven full size vans that didn't handle as well. :)

    Knowing I *can* do over 85 is nice. I don't really *want* to go fast in it though. It's pretty much an aerodynamic brick. Slightly sexier curves, but that doesn't help much.

    At the moment, I have about $4,500 invested total. I bought it on eBay for cheap, did some mechanical things, and a bit of interior work. I have to finish the interior, and infrastructure work (power, water, sewer, LP). Some lifestyle things have changed, so I have to redraw the floorplan before continuing. I no longer have the wife, two kids, and two dogs. Now, I have a girlfriend, no kids, 4 cats, and the possibility of a half dozen or so friends wanting to go on weekend trips. :)

 

Do Like The WISP Do

[Anonymous Coward]

I work with a local WISP and they use Mikrotik products running on all three bands (900MHz, 2.4GHz and 5.8GHz) and they provide networks for many campgrounds and parks along with coverage for over 11 counties. Using 5 radios with omni antennas and doing a WDS mesh or relay you could blanket the whole park for less than you think. Ubiquiti radios are okay but they don't offer the management and configuration options like Mikrotik products.

Re:Typical RV park

[Music2Eat]

You also need to factor in the fact that if you're staying in Motels, you're going to be pretty much eating at a restaurant every night. With a camper you have a full kitchen. Having spent 53 days traveling around the country not this last summer, but the previous, I can say with out a doubt I would not have wanted to do it living out of motel rooms. Having to pack and unpack the car every night, living out of a suitcase, and sleeping in a different bed every night would have gotten old real quick. With a camper, you have all your stuff stored in the camper, closets for your clothes, and a bed you can get used to. We got pretty good at hooking and unhooking the camper, we had it down to under 5 mins. The best part though, if you really need to use the bathroom, there's no searching for one, you're hauling one around with you. Just pull over and use it. If you think they're easy to find, your coming from a coasters perspective. There are still vast stretches of this country that have nothing in them but a road, running straight and true for miles and miles and miles and miles and...