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Ask Slashdot: Updating a Difficult Campground Wi-Fi Design?
MahlonS writes "I am a retired network hack wintering in my RV in a campground in southern GA. 3 years ago I reconfigured the Wi-Fi system to a marginal working ability; It's now ready for a serious upgrade, prompted by a new cable net connection replacing a weak DSL. 5 dual-radio HP Curve access points connect to a 6th via single or double radio hops (effectively a Wireless Distribution System) in heavily wooded space. Unidirectional antennas at the APs (the APs are in water resistant enclosures) are placed on poles above the RVs, about 15 feet above ground. Primary hops are about 300 feet to 3 of the APs, secondary hops about the same. Signal measurements indicate that there is adequate RF between the access points. In 2008, average user count averaged about 30 users; newer devices (smart phones, etc) will likely increase that number (winter population total is about 80 RVs). While the old design worked OK when lightly loaded, I suspect that the single DSL line generated so many packet resends that the APs were flooded. This is a quasi-State Park, so money is always an issue, but there is enough squawk from the user community that a modest budget might be approved. The main AP connects to an old Cisco router. Burying wire is frowned upon, due to shallow utilities, and campfire rings that float around the campsites — sometimes melting TV cables. Since I'm not up on current Wi-Fi tech, are there solutions out there that would make this system work much better?"
Lower your transmitters a little. Signals propagate horizontally (perpendicular from the antenna), this is why you need to have an AP on each floor in a house to get good signal. Not because you're on different floors so much as the signals just aren't going in the right directions.
I know you're trying to broadcast over the RVs, but going over them also means no signal is getting to them in this case.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
we've got 5 outdoor ruckus ap's spread across our park. (fairly cheap too)
http://www.ruckuswireless.com
they'll mesh with indoor wifi ap's if you don't want to run ethernet to each one individually.
the "smart antenna" design is actually pretty good. it supports dynamic beamforming, multiple signal paths etc. basically it just takes the path of least resistance, which helps a lot when dealing with a lot of walls/trees etc.
you can give them a call w/ any questions you might have.
Why fiber and not cooper?
Lightning. Za Pow!
Never run a piece of copper from one building to another if you can at all avoid it.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Putting wi-fi in a campground is contrary to its purpose. I don't care if the asker and the editors failed to notice this. I don't care if that rains on someone's little parade. It's a dumb idea. Whatever you're doing there, it isn't camping. It's using the Internet outside. That's my genuine opinion, and not only is it as valid as the asker's, it's more valid because it's more consistent with what a campground is for. Some ball-less soul-less sack of shit will mod me down anyway because he hasn't the guts to argue against me, but that's okay.
Except that a lot of people in RVs full time. That means their RV is their primary, and only, home. As such, they need access to their bank accounts, friends, relatives, news. For most people who full time, a campground with wifi is essential, at least once in a while.
My sister lives aboard a sailboat. Full time, all over the world. Wifi is huge for her. Without wifi, we do't know if she's alive or not. We have an RV; we don't fulltime but after 9 days it's nice to do laundry and catch up on world news.
We also backpack and spend a lot of time in the wilderness, so I'll stack my "camping creds" against yours any day. When was the last time you were in the wilderness, with a 2 day hike-out to the nearest trailhead? Are you spending your thanksgiving next to your computer, or in the high desert 20 miles from the nearest town?
Gives you something to do when it rains. Been there, done that. Not just directly, but indirectly, now a days you internet search for the closest stir fry place or whatever. Oh look we ran out of propane and the onsite general store sells one pound cans for $10 a piece and walmart 2 miles away sells them for $2 and we could pick up some more food at the community grocery store.. road trip!
Much as its nice to momentarily disconnect and go on a walk in a park, sometimes on vacation its nice to momentarily reconnect.
My parents mostly used it to upload pictures. "see, he caught a fish" that type of thing.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
http://www.open-mesh.com/ .11G mesh, $60 for a router and another $20 for the outdoor enclosure.
The single band series is
The dual band does N, $100 for a router and $40 for the enclosure.
Either way you get mesh networking that's really damn simple to configure and has a public and a private network. Public can be open or encrypted, supports individual bandwidth limits, and has a splash page feature for logins or selling airtime. Private network is encrypted and unrestricted.
Love mesh networking. No cables, network topography isn't set in stone, you just toss another router into the mix wherever needed and you can cover wherever you want.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
I don't think "communing with nature" is the point. I think cheap accommodation is. People like to be able to travel around the country in a moving "house." I once met, for instance, a guy who drove around the US for a year with his wife, with a camper hitched to the back of a small pickup, in order to see the country and, among other things, decide where they'd want eventually to settle down. I get the impression that many retirees, likewise, buy campers and go touring. It seems like a reasonable enough thing to do. I'd be curious to know what would be cheaper: that, or traveling in a fuel-efficient sedan and staying at Motel 8s.
It sounds like you don't exactly know where your problems are, so how can you solve them?
My advice would be to do some serious analysis of what's going on in your network. Hook up an ethernet sniffer to your internet connection and see what's going wrong. You suspect it's a lot of retransmissions do to the DSL, well find out if that's true. Consider buying a cheap spectrum analyzer (wi-spy can be had for under $100). Track when you get problems, and where. Throwing money and equipment at the problem is more likely to waste money and equipment than solve the problem. Since you're retired, it sounds like you're more short on money and equipment than you are on time to analyse and diagnose the problem.
Once you actually know what the problem is, then you can go out to the wireless community and ask for a solution. K You're seeing a lot of very, very different solutions here because people are guessing what the underlying problem is, largely based on what's worked for them. Obviously you can't follow all of them, but which one should you try? Knowledge is power, and ignorance is folly.
AccountKiller
True, didn't think of that. Anyone know what the price diffference is between something like Cat. 6 and fiber?
Darn near zero. Seriously. $1 to $3 foot indoors for both, outdoors is usually strictly quote basis.
Again your experience may vary but the other difference is cat5/6 usually is terminated for "free" as part of the deal and fiber is usually terminated for like $25 per connector (in other words $50 flat fee added cost for one complete working cable). Also some CPE needs weird connectors, so many contractors will pull the fiber and let you figure out your bizarre escon-fiber or whatever, if you aren't using something standard that they can terminate.
Some fiber places want to charge extra to OTDR verify, some even try to charge extra to give the results to you.
Get a couple bids.
Stereotypes: Electricians do a great job of grounding aerial leader line and pull so hard they damage both fiber and cat5 (cat5 isn't exactly the 0000 gauge entrance facility they're used to). Also electricians have no comprehension of EMI/RFI and will run cat5 wrapped around the dirtiest industrial power line and light units. Electricians are also stereotypically poor at terminating. Geniuses at pulling cable and fishing and whats best described as "stupid conduit tricks", not so good at termination.. The "LAN/WAN/server" guys generally cannot waterproof outdoors to save their life, assume it'll leak if they get involved. The vertical market cable contractors who do one thing and one thing only are not terribly mentally flexible and freak out if you want to do anything other than bog standard cubicle wiring. All stereotypes have an element of truth and might be useful to recall when negotiating your contracts.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
He's not there to get back to nature and disconnect. He's WINTERING there. - a place that he's already configured once for WiFi three years ago and now he wants to upgrade everything.
Fiber can be purchased rather cheaply. It's really worth it for outside runs. As someone else said, lightning strikes.. Even the extra equipment required (transceivers, fiber ready switches, etc) can be purchased fairly cheaply on eBay.
I did it to replace a mess of copper and wireless between offices in a complex once. If I remember right, it was something like 600' of fiber for about $200. I did it in segments, so if someone were to damage one segment, it could be easily replaced. For their end points, I picked up a lot of 6 Cisco Catalyst 2924's with 4-port 100baseFX cards. I think the total price on switches was $300, and that let me replace all kinds of consumer-grade crap switches.
His problem with fire pits and the like can be reduced by laying the fiber along the edge of the roads, and burying at a sufficient depth. Hell, they run power and water to each campsite already. Parallel runs to existing infrastructure would be fine. Fiber doesn't have that nasty tendency to pick up inductive signals.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
All wire has resistance and inductance. A high current nearby lightning strike will induce voltage and current in nearby conductors. This is why you never stand near a metal fence in an electrical storm. The fence may be grounded at both ends, but in relation to the nearby ground the fence can be lethal. One of the biggest strikes I had to clean up was a radio station transmitter. The antenna was properly grounded. The local utilities were properly grounded. A nearby lightning strike blew out diodes in the power suppy and there was obvious arc marks between the utility ground and the utility neutral. On the other end of the wire at the AC panel, the neutral is bonded to ground and connected to the building ground. The final in the transmitter was fine. The power suppy took the hit with the high voltage differential between ground and ground due to the high current. On the wall, there was arc marks between the coax to the antenna and the upper ground ring in the room. There were several points of arcing between ground and ground. Two panels on the wall showed explosive discharge between the frame of the panel and the conduit between them, even with the ground wire in the conduit in the panels tying them together. Transformer action into the conduit created high current in the conduit. Conduit joints and box to conduit joints showed arc marks. A semiconductor anything in that area would have taken the hit. Just tying it to ground doesn't work for high energy pulse discharges.
The truth shall set you free!