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Lego Bible Too Racy For Sam's Club

localman writes with this excerpt from CNET: "Through his hit Web site and three popular books, [author Brendan] Smith has spread the gospel of 'The Brick Testament.' But now, because of what it says are concerns about 'mature content,' Sam's Club, one of the nation's largest retailers, has banned in-store sales of the fourth book in the series, The Brick Bible.

484 comments

  1. I met him at a party by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    He was, a bit sadly, exactly what you would expect from a guy who has devoted a significant portion of his adult life reproducing the stories of the bible out of legos. Still, it is pretty impressive work.

    1. Re:I met him at a party by revbps · · Score: 2

      Stuart, is that you? I told you I wasn't interested.

    2. Re:I met him at a party by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is pretty impressive work. I'm sorry your post has such a negative tone. This guy does what he enjoys, does it well, and I think the world is a better place with him.

    3. Re:I met him at a party by the_humeister · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, that's not a very good description. What exactly was he like???

    4. Re:I met him at a party by Caesar+Tjalbo · · Score: 1

      The book is, a bit sadly, not the definitive guide on building with Lego.

      --
      "I'm not much interested in interoperability. I want substitutability. I want to be able to throw your software out."
    5. Re:I met him at a party by hairyfeet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I do think it says something about the religions when the worst the guy gets for a Lego bible is banning from Sam's Club for being racy. if he would have tried it with the Koran he'd be hiding in some bunker in Omaha with a 9mm under his pillow just to keep the crazies from killing him. hell look at how completely batshit they went over some Danish cartoons, whereas Ghastly had the "Drunk and bitter Jesus" comic for years and nobody said shit.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    6. Re:I met him at a party by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Your example would make more sense if he'd done something more like jesus having gay sex.

      In which case, I suspect he'd be somewhere hiding from batshit christians.

    7. Re:I met him at a party by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet I'm confidant that I could post\publish this* and still be safe, right here in the bible belt. Sure, I might not be getting fan letters from the neighbors, but I wouldn't be attacked violent either.

      *NSFW Warning: May contain gay porn of Jesus.

      <rot13>Qbrf vg ybbx onq vs V cbfg guvf nabalzbhfyl?</rot13>.

    8. Re:I met him at a party by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Counter-reference : Jesus and Mo : no significant evidence of the "crazies" (i.e. lunatics following an Abrahamic religion, like Christianity) attacking the author, at least since his insistence that "Mo" is played by a body-double.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    9. Re:I met him at a party by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Well, that's not a very good description. What exactly was he like???

      A well-rounded, articulate, successful millionaire polo player with model good looks, his own fashion/perfume range and a cock like a rolling pin?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  2. To be fair by thue · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If the Bible was judged purely on its contents, in the same way as other books, then it would require quite a warning label.

    1. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 0

      I agree that there is a good bit of explicit material in the Bible, depending on how you define that. Funny link (so long as you've not actually studied the Bible... work of fiction?!?!?), though not sure what that has to do with the article.

    2. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That warning label neglects to warn of the Bible's descriptions of acts of pedophilia and underage sex, which could make it illegal child pornography in say Australia.

    3. Re:To be fair by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "It had been arranged by the prison charlie, as part of my further education to read him the Bible. I didn't so much like the latter part of the book which is more like all preachy talking, than fighting and the old in-out. I liked the parts where these old yahoodies tolchock each other and then drink their Hebrew vino and, then getting on to the bed with their wives' handmaidens. That kept me going."

      "I read all about the scourging and the crowning with thorns and all that, and I could viddy myself helping in and even taking charge of the tolchocking and the nailing in, being dressed in the height of Roman fashion."

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    4. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes. And here's some of the parts that are probably among the "racy" ones: http://www.thebricktestament.com//the_law/rape/dt22_23a.html etc...

    5. Re:To be fair by vadim_t · · Score: 4, Insightful

      News flash: Christianity is only 33% of the world belief, so just by that measure, most of the world doesn't believe in the contents, making it a work of fiction in their view.

      Then there's that the bible references plenty events that clearly didn't happen, such as a global flood or the plagues of Egypt, which definitely is fiction.

    6. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MOD UP PLS

    7. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      Heh, yea, I don't see racy there.... stupid, yes, racy, no.
      And atheists complain about Fundamentalists.... sheesh!

    8. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      the Bible... work of fiction?!?!?

      Works of fiction can still contain references to (or be based on) real people, places, and events.

    9. Re:To be fair by rubycodez · · Score: 0

      "only"? That's a massive chunk of the populace! and by far the largest of any religion.

    10. Re:To be fair by TxRv · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why anyone today would follow a deity that raped a child. According to Jewish custom, Mary would have married at age 12. Jesus was born about a year later.

    11. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>Bible... work of fiction?!?!?

      For the sake of argument, here's the beginning of the wikipedia entry on fiction:

      Fiction is the form of any narrative or informative work that deals, in part or in whole, with information or events that are not factual, but rather, imaginary—that is, invented by the author. [...] Fiction contrasts with non-fiction, which deals exclusively with factual (or, at least, assumed factual) events, descriptions, observations, etc. (e.g.: biographies, histories).

      When applied to the bible (turning water into wine, talking clouds, creating people out of ribs) the label would seem to apply.

      >>depending on how you define that
      Could you give a definition of fiction that does not include the Bible?

    12. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      McDonalds is by far the most popular restaurant in the world but that doesn't mean the food is any good.

    13. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      I am failing to follow your argument there. What does the % of population believing something have to do with it being fact or fiction?

      Re: events that didn't happen... how do you know that? Can you name one?
      - flood... many Christians don't see the flood as global.
      - plagues of Egypt (Note: a claim isn't an argument.): but to address your assertion, Hebrew people were there... Hebrew people left... Egypt didn't report defeats.

    14. Re:To be fair by sconeu · · Score: 1

      Don't forget endorsing bioterrrorism! (See the 10 plagues)

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    15. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows is by far the most popular operating system in the world but that doesn't mean it's any good.

    16. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      True, though I'm not sure what you seem to be asserting follows.

    17. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      Maybe that's why Christianity doesn't teach that.

    18. Re:To be fair by Surt · · Score: 1

      That may be the largest share, but it still doesn't reach over half. He used the word only to emphasize that point. More people believe the stories of christianity to be fiction than believe them to be truth.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    19. Re:To be fair by Surt · · Score: 1

      Well, according to some interpretations it was aural sex, which wouldn't (quite) qualify as rape, but rather probably some kind of sexual abuse of a minor.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    20. Re:To be fair by rainmouse · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I am failing to follow your argument there. What does the % of population believing something have to do with it being fact or fiction?

      Re: events that didn't happen... how do you know that? Can you name one?

      Actually that's not how belief works. Unless someone is brainwashed as a kid, you have to provide evidence that something is real for them to believe any of it and not expect them to try and disprove it.

    21. Re:To be fair by Kaenneth · · Score: 5, Funny

      Nitrogen is the most popular gas to breath, but that dosn't mean it's any good.

    22. Re:To be fair by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Global flood is fiction? If you say so. Of course, the Bible doesn't use the word "global", nor do any of the other legends, traditions, or whatever. The concept of your "global flood" is so widespread, it's awfully hard to simply dismiss it as never happening.

      I remember that Noah's ark was found on top of a mountain, then I remember that story being "debunked", but no one ever explained how a huge freaking boat just happened to be on top of that mountain.

      I'm not one to insist that every passage of the Bible be accepted literally, for several reasons. But Noah's flood hasn't been dismissed, either.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    23. Re:To be fair by Robert+Zenz · · Score: 1

      The plagues most likely did happen..except, you know...it's called "natural disaster".

    24. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sooooo, it isn't a work of fiction? It's all true?

    25. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      News flash: Christianity is only 33% of the world belief, so just by that measure, most of the world doesn't believe in the contents, making it a work of fiction in their view.

      Then there's that the bible references plenty events that clearly didn't happen, such as a global flood or the plagues of Egypt, which definitely is fiction.

      You forgot to add Jews who believe in most of the Bible, and muslims who at least in theory believe in Bible (in addition to Quran)

    26. Re:To be fair by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      I am failing to follow your argument there. What does the % of population believing something have to do with it being fact or fiction?

      66% of the planet doesn't think it's the truth. If a book doesn't contain truth then it contains something somebody made up, and we call that "fiction". So according to most of the planet, the bible is fiction.

      plagues of Egypt (Note: a claim isn't an argument.): but to address your assertion, Hebrew people were there... Hebrew people left... Egypt didn't report defeats.

      It doesn't matter if they reported something or not, anything like what's depicted in the bible would have been absolutely devastating to Egypt and left ample evidence.

      Speaking of Exodus, there's no evidence of 600000 people packing up and leaving Egypt either. That would also have left traces.

    27. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1, Funny

      Umm... that person was making the claim....
      I have plenty of evidence on which to believe Christianity to be true.... and conversely, plenty of evidence to believe other worldviews are false.

    28. Re:To be fair by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Forceibly inpregnanting a child is one of the lesser of God's crimes according to the bible. How about several murders, numerous genocides - both direct and ordered - the creation of a realm of eternal torture... God is a nasty piece of work.

      Even those ten plagues are more evil than they seem. God manipulated Pharoh into refusing his instructions purely in order to give himself an excuse to let loose the plagues upon the rest of Pharohs country - and even goes so far as to admit to Moses that he didn't *need* to kill a substantial portion of the population of Egypt, but did so simply to ensure the people of Israel would never forget their debt to him.

    29. Re:To be fair by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Aural? In the ear? Like that Family Guy scene with Meg and her boyfriend?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    30. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kid, it's all make believe.

      Some day you will die. That's a fact. Then you will end. But that's fine. It may sound scary, but it's not.

      Best of luck.

    31. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      God did it for teh lulz.

      would explain a lot actually

    32. Re:To be fair by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 2

      I wish more Christians/Jews/Muslims understood this. Even after the conceptual hurdle that is belief in a higher authority, their God is a colossal dick. Who the fuck wants to hop on that bandwagon?

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    33. Re:To be fair by hazah · · Score: 2

      What is this evidence. Each time I am faced with this evidence, its only to discover that it's just circular, baseless, logic. I'd sincerely love to have some provided.

    34. Re:To be fair by hazah · · Score: 1

      So did this huge boat really have 2 of every animal on it? Given its size, you think this is still plausible?

    35. Re:To be fair by hazah · · Score: 1

      It just smells funny when there's only one side to that story, and nothing else to corroborate it.

    36. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pedantics Nazi spotted.

    37. Re:To be fair by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have plenty of evidence on which to believe Christianity to be true

      I don't think "evidence" means what you think it means.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    38. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Ad Hominem won't work on me... I'm too old for that. ;)

      Yes, someday you and I will both die. The question is what happens after that. I don't think the evidence is stacked in your favor there.
      I'm not scared at all (well, some forms of dying sound a bit scary, but of being dead, no).
      Best of luck to you as well. I just hate to see people left in their ignorance.

    39. Re:To be fair by Tarsir · · Score: 1

      Try this. I may just be a prude or paranoid, but if I lived in the States, I wouldn't want to be caught showing that to a child. I'd end up on the Sex Offender Registry.

    40. Re:To be fair by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.

      Heinlein

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    41. Re:To be fair by rossdee · · Score: 1

      News Flash: Islam also regards the Bible as a Holy book, and Judaism believes in the Old Testament.

    42. Re:To be fair by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      I have plenty of evidence on which to believe Christianity to be true

      I don't think "evidence" means what you think it means.

      Well, that's obvious :) And I probably don't think "evidence" means what either of you think it means. For that matter, I probably don't even think "scientific evidence" (something shown as evident based on provable knowledge) means exactly what you think it means.

      Back to the original topic, the Bible is almost all content that, in either a historical work or a work of fiction would get the book an "adult content" sticker these days. I'd say the only reason it doesn't have one is due to freedom of religion laws.

      Maybe it should have one... or maybe it's time our society realized that our social morality needs a re-set (it's OK to talk about things that are Bad Things To Do, even in the context in which the people doing them think they're good)

    43. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I have plenty of evidence on which to believe Christianity to be true

      Citation required

    44. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking of Exodus, there's no evidence of 600000 people packing up and leaving Egypt either. That would also have left traces.

      It did.

    45. Re:To be fair by Your.Master · · Score: 2

      Three parts where you lose me, in order of importance:

      1. The assertion that the atheistic worldview utterly fails. I haven't seen an argument to this effect that wasn't either absurd, or attacking an atheistic worldview that is not representative of all or most atheistic worldviews (the straw atheistic worldview).
      2. If the atheistic worldview fails, that doesn't leave you ruling out religions. Even if I granted that the atheistic worldview cannot work, I can't see how you'd conclude that what remains is even remotely similar to any world religion. There's pretty much an infinite variety of things that nobody has ever thought of before, which could be said to be consistent with what we know of reality.
      3. While I'm sure Christianity does beat out some alternative religions, I'm far from convinced that it's "up there" in terms of plausibility compared to other world religions. I'll grant that I'm more familiar with Christianity (many variations thereof) than any other religion and as such I might be missing some completely wacky things in other religions.

      I had a quick look at your site but didn't immediately find anything addressing point 1 (clicking "atheist" led me to a couple antagonistic / preaching to the choir articles, but I'll take that in good humour), and it's a holiday so I won't be researching all day :).

    46. Re:To be fair by EsbenMoseHansen · · Score: 2

      It took me three lines to spot your first grave mistake in an argument. "Under atheism, one cannot really have true evil". Certainly you can, it is just a matter of definition. Say, trying to scare small kiddies with hell if they don't believe is "true evil" in my book. So is torturing alleged heretics, burning witches and a number of other acts. All those acts are more than plentiful evil enough to support the "you cannot have such events in the world, .together with an good, omnipotent and omniscient god".

      Besides which, "evil" in this argument doesn't really need to be evil, just obviously bad for humans. Earthquakes, tsunamis and even ice storms comes under that heading.

      Destroying the arguments of religious types is easy as stealing candy from children, but more fun and less objectionable :)

      --
      Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
    47. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      consciousness, free choice, reason, logic, information. We'll start there.

      Ok, let's start there. How are these things evidence that christianity is true?

      One way of approaching it is to recognize that the atheistic worldview utterly fails

      How so? This seems to be the archetypal Begging the Question.

    48. Re:To be fair by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      Since this is the old testament, you can add in the Jews (.2%). And the Muslims (20%) also incorporate the old testament (occasionally throwing in a few edits to retro-actively make themselves the chosen ones), which brings that number up to 53%.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    49. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      David and Goliath? Moses? The whole rising from the dead after 3 days? The garden of eden?

      But of course, any christian who believes all of that anyway comes back with the same argument regardless, which boils down to "a wizard did it".

    50. Re:To be fair by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      It could have had 2 of every animal, accounting for evolution since then. However, it didn't have 2 of every known plant, and from the account taken at face value, the "world" was able to re-grow all fauna within a year after the deluge.

      Key point here: look up the word translated as "world" in most English translations of the Bible. It had vastly different meaning and connotations in Aramaic 4,000 years ago than it does in English today. Very few people had even thought as far as entertaining the thought of the atmosphere being a permeable barrier between us an the heavens. "World" would likely have referred to places and peoples known by the local inhabitants.

      That said, it is definitely possible that all current "humans" can trace themselves back to the sole surviving group of some flood. It is also possible that such a flood wiped out all flora/fauna in the previous cradle of humanity. "Major flood" is right up there with "dragon" in the list of things that appear to be a global part of our history, even though nobody can point to scientific evidence for the existence of the subjects of the tales. There are lots of excellent academic papers taking about every stance you can think of on these subjects, so I'm not going to attempt to claim to be the slashdot expert.

      Is there proof? No... just scattered accounts, one of which happens to have ended up in the Bible, retold through Jewish eyes.

      I wouldn't consider that to be the lego diorama that got the book censored though... more likely it's the animal sacrifices, death-by-cross, slave caravans, the chopped up raped woman, golden tumors, genocidal battle scenes or something similar that would do that trick.

    51. Re:To be fair by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Could you give a definition of fiction that does not include the Bible?

      No; but I also could not give a definition of fiction that does not include most history books.

      Considering the Bible is an anthology containing personal letters, poetry, songs, moral stories, census data and theological treatises, among other things, referring to it as "a work of fiction" makes as much sense as referring to Wikipedia as "a work of fiction".

    52. Re:To be fair by gilleain · · Score: 1

      Then you start ruling out religions. Pretty soon, you're left with Christianity and a couple others to actually consider.

      I'm curious - how do you 'rule out' religions? For example, some people might think that the Book of Mormon was invented by Joseph Smith. Certainly Scientology was made up.

      Is that what you mean? Or is the the test simply : "Do they believe exactly the same things that I believe?"...

    53. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Citation needed

    54. Re:To be fair by decoy256 · · Score: 5, Informative

      How does belief make someone ignorant? I am constantly baffled by the notion, spread by Christians and Atheists alike, that there is no peaceful coexistence (even peaceful coexistence inside the mind of a single person) between science and Christianity.

      I agree with the atheists when they make fun of religionists (and I use that term very intentionally, since a religionist is different than a believer... unfortunately 90% of all modern Christians... heck 90% of all religious people... are religionists). There is much mock-worthy in their stand point.

      I also think that atheists go too far... they see all of the problems of religion, but do not see the clear path through those problems to a set of beliefs that are not bound by the religionist superstitions and dogma. True religion is free of dogma and superstition and embraces all truth.

      Because true religion isn't about building a fancy church or enjoying an entertaining Sunday sermon or even about feeling good because you do so much gosh-darned service and aren't you such a good-boy? It is about personal, deep and real growth. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the Flood or Plagues or a 6-day creation or parting the Red Sea or any of the nifty stories (whether or not they are true is completely secondary). I happen to believe that it is only in and through Christ that one can have the most personal, the deepest, and the most significant growth. But I believe He commanded us to embrace all truth, not just the truths that make us feel good about ourselves and are easy and convenient for us.

      But religion has ceased being about growth and has become an industry like any other industry -- corrupt and self-cannibalizing, based on and directed towards individual self-aggrandizement (for both preachers and parishioners) and the cares and filthy lucre of this world. Except one. The religion that teaches personal growth (not just giving lip-service to growth) and its truth can only be seen and found by those who are committed to personal growth. Anyone else who stumbles into such a church would only see the outer trappings. It is interesting... the religion of personal growth can only be found through personal growth. We are, quite literally, a self-selecting group.

    55. Re:To be fair by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      I wish more Christians/Jews/Muslims understood this. Even after the conceptual hurdle that is belief in a higher authority, their God is a colossal dick. Who the fuck wants to hop on that bandwagon?

      Well, look at it this way: if that God exists exactly as you perceive him to be portrayed, what happens to you if you're one of the people who down-plays his might/existence?

      The fact that humans tend to be colossal dicks throughout history points to the fact that it can at least happen in realms of lower authority....

      If you're wanting to believe in a higher authority because it means you don't have to accept personal responsibility for things -- as a crutch or escape from reality -- that kind of god makes no sense. It makes a LOT of sense if you're looking for something/one who could have created the world we live in.

      Look at the Greek pantheon; ALL of those gods were portrayed as colossal dicks at some point, and some of them were almost completely defined by that phrase.

    56. Re:To be fair by Cstryon · · Score: 1

      Maybe not of the whole earth. Perhaps Noah's flood happened somewhere in the area that early humans inhabited, and Noah built the boat for that small region. That area could have been the whole world to that people.
      I believe the Bible was written by man, with only some of it being inspired by God, the rest being historical.
      I am a Christian, and I am one of many who see science as being the best way to understand the how. I won't limit my God to quick work and tons of diception to test my faith.

      --
      Indoctrinate : to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments Educate : to develop mentally, morally, or aestheti
    57. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      News flash: Christianity is only 33% of the world belief, so just by that measure, most of the world doesn't believe in the contents, making it a work of fiction in their view.

      Then there's that the bible references plenty events that clearly didn't happen, such as a global flood or the plagues of Egypt, which definitely is fiction.

      Islam catch another 21% of the worlds population. Muslims also hold the content of the Bible to be true (they see Islam as the next step of Christianity, a super set). There is also some other smaller religious sects that also believe in the Bible, all of it or partially (e.g. the Jews).

      So, sadly, by statistics more then half of the human population do believe in the Bible. Fortunatly, I doubt most of the religious practitioners of Islam and Christianity actually know much of the whole content of the Bible (I would guess a higher percentage of Western Atheists have read the whole Bible then those Westerners that confess to the Christian faith) and those Christian that have read the whole Bible, usually take the content very metaphorically (with a grain of salt, you could say ;)

    58. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 2

      So....
      premise 1: "66% of the planet doesn't think it's the truth." (anyone notice the fallacy here?)
      premise 2: "If a book doesn't contain truth then it contains something somebody made up, and we call that "fiction"." (quite true)
      conclusion: "So according to most of the planet, the bible is fiction." (So?)

      So, the first premise if fallacious, the second is good, but the conclusion doesn't follow nor is it relevant to the claims.
      (Note: I'm not a logician, so I might have not set that out properly... but this was just too obviously wacked out.)

      "It doesn't matter if they reported something or not"
      Sure it does, that's how we know history. What I'm saying is that WE KNOW Egypt WOULD NOT have reported such a thing if their behavior is consistent at all. So, we wouldn't EXPECT this to have been reported... so that it isn't is no surprise (and lends no weight to your claim).

      "anything like what's depicted in the bible would have been absolutely devastating to Egypt and left ample evidence."
      - First, from my understanding, this was one city/region in Egypt, not all of Egypt. Second, I'm not sure how it would have left ample evidence. That was a long time ago.

      "Speaking of Exodus, there's no evidence of 600000 people packing up and leaving Egypt either. That would also have left traces."
      - Not true. First, you should know that even among Biblical scholars, the numbers (population size) are disputed, BASED on the text (not just liberal skepticism). Second, you might want to do a bit more research before making such a sweeping claim:
      http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBWWO8dCeY0
      I could give you lots more... but that's a start.

    59. Re:To be fair by joocemann · · Score: 2

      That may be one reason to call it fiction, but the real reason is the absence of facts. No facts = fiction. People of faith don't like the stigma of these works being called fiction, but faith = belief in that which is absent of fact... the point being that if the bible was factual, the people who believed it would be caled scientists. They canot have faith and facts at the same time; the purposes of those words are mutually exclusive. Thus you can conclude this, faithful people believe ficton and by definition, rightly so; and stupid people think they should have faith but call it fact because they don't have an inteligent grasp of ther language.

    60. Re:To be fair by Alsee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Re: events that didn't happen... how do you know that? Can you name one?
      - flood... many Christians don't see the flood as global.

      Right. And many Christians don't believe there was a walking talking snake and magical fruit in a garden of eden either. In fact the majority of Christians accept evolution, effectively acknowledging the entirety of Genesis is fiction.

      However I find it odd that you are complaining about him calling the bible fiction, and somehow your argument against him is to point out that many Christians accept that it's fictional.

      You're just fussing over how much of it is fictional. No one I know of disputes that many of the people, places, and events events in the bible are historical, just like no one disputes that many of the people, places, and events events of greek mythology are historical. There probably was a real battle-hero person named Hercules, just like Jesus was almost certainly a real person. However when you know that Medusa and Harpies are fiction, I'm baffled why would anyone believe it wasn't fictional for Hercules to be the son of a God with the strength of a hundred men? And when you know a global flood and walking talking snakes are fictional, I'm baffled why anyone would anyone believe it wasn't fictional for Jesus to be the son of a God and rose from the dead?

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    61. Re:To be fair by dodobh · · Score: 1

      In what way does the atheistic worldview fail?

      Keep in mind that "I don't know", "I don't know yet" and "It is impossible to know, but this is the most probable" are all valid answers.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    62. Re:To be fair by Caraig · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, just... no. Evolution does not work that way. Evolution does not generate new species within a span of 6000 years. Or even 200,000 years. Not like that, not for complex higher mammals.

      If the Abrahamic flood story is real -- and it will have to compete with the Babylonian flood story -- then it's possible 'two of every animal' meant two of every domesticated animal on his farm/land. That would make more sense.

      But there is no evidence whatsoever of *all* humans dating back to any flood. Mitochondrial Eve dates back to at least 200,000 years ago, when homo sapiens sapiens was just developing, and she was in sub-Saharan Africa. If you really want to contemplate that all of humanity arose from a single population, that is the current theory; and the holes in it suggest that the single population originator dates back even FURTHER.

      Could Mitochondrial Eve's population of h. sapiens gotten on an ark to escape a flood? Doubtful. They were budding tool users but not to the extent that it would take to build even a coracle boat. Plus, they were not in a region in which there is geological evidence that there was any flooding.

      The best contender for the flood myth is the recurring theme of floods in Egyptian mythology. Egyptian history -- history, not myth -- also has some intriguing events to look into, in particular the establishment of Atenism (the first true monotheism) and the civil war in the Late Bronze Age between Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt, which was under the control of the Hyskos and Sea Peoples (called in Egyptian the 'Habiru.') The Hyskos were driven out of Egypt, and one theory is that these people went to Canaan. After a period of integration and assimilation, Atenism reasserted itself and the priests of El' (sound familiar?) declared him to be the one true god, purging the priesthoods of other deities including Baal Hadad and Asherah.

      There's some fascinating things in the actual history of the world, before, during, and after the Bronze Age Collapse. Between the Sea Peoples and the detonation of Thera/Santorini, the the disappearance of Minoan civilization, there's a gloriously complex world that we've only just begun to uncover. Sadly, if you take the Abrahamic Bible as anything other than metaphor, mythology, and religious scripture, you are going to be sorely, sadly disappointed.

      --
      "I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
    63. Re:To be fair by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well! Maybe on your planet.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    64. Re:To be fair by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 2

      What does the % of population believing something have to do with it being fact or fiction?

      Sometimes it's just the way things are. Here's a perfect example:

      Your money has value.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    65. Re:To be fair by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      maybe it's time our society realized that our social morality needs a re-set

      I don't think our "social morality" has significantly changed.

      What's changed is our belief that behaving in a moral way is going to be worthwhile.

      Morality has always been self-serving. The more we see people succeeding based upon immoral behavior (Wall Street, reality TV, etc) the more people think, "why bother?"

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    66. Re:To be fair by artor3 · · Score: 2

      So, is GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire series also considered illegal child pornography? A quick Google search says no. And yet the descriptions of sex involving people who'd be considered children by modern standards are numerous and far more graphic than anything in the Bible.

      Oh, but I'm sorry, your point was to take a shot at religion, not to actually say anything true or interesting.

    67. Re:To be fair by retchdog · · Score: 1

      yeah, it's called calvinism.

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    68. Re:To be fair by spazzmo · · Score: 1

      Not according to Israels foremost archeologists. http://freethought.mbdojo.com/archeology.html

      --
      The cheese stands alone...
    69. Re:To be fair by artor3 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Oh look, an internet atheist ranting against a religion he has only a child-like understanding of. Never seen that before.

      Hey, how about next time you at least read the first few paragraphs of the wikipedia article on hell before rattling off your favorite talking points?

    70. Re:To be fair by dskoll · · Score: 1

      Hey, how about next time you at least read the first few paragraphs of the wikipedia article on hell before rattling off your favorite talking points?

      The Bible supplies enough fiction, thanks. I don't need to read fairy-tales on Wikipedia.

    71. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aura, not auris. God fucked her halo.

    72. Re:To be fair by pwizard2 · · Score: 1

      If you re-enacted many of the stories out of the old testament with Legos, then you would need lots and lots of dead, dismembered Lego people to go along with the destroyed Lego cities they used to live in. You would also need an add-on set that has a Lego Moses, a Lego Joshua, and a Lego David so you can have a party after all god's Lego enemies are dead.

      What do you expect from a god that considers burning flesh to be a pleasant aroma?

      --
      "It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
    73. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have plenty of evidence on which to believe Christianity to be true

      I don't think "evidence" means what you think it means.

      Eye witness testimony is a form of evidence:

      http://www.scifiwright.com/2011/09/a-question-i-never-tire-of-answering/

    74. Re:To be fair by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      So?

      I figure that if one has the position that accepting things on faith makes sense, that ought to extend to other people doing the same, even if they disagree.

      Sure it does, that's how we know history. What I'm saying is that WE KNOW Egypt WOULD NOT have reported such a thing if their behavior is consistent at all. So, we wouldn't EXPECT this to have been reported... so that it isn't is no surprise (and lends no weight to your claim).

      No, it's not needed. There's more to look at than writings. People don't leave their environment undisturbed and leave traces. And assuming Egypt somehow avoided recording anything about all this, there still would be archaelogical evidence, and the neighbours would still have noticed, and have plenty time to make good use of the situation.

      The effects would be very noticeable. If such a thing happened, Egypt would have been dealt a huge blow. Massive amounts of death leave traces, even if nobody writes them down.

      We're talking here about: unusable water, all the fish in the Nile dead, rotting animals and people everywhere, lots of insects, ruined harvest, dead livestock, lots of dead people, and no army. Add to that half a million people that suddenly vanished. The immediate aftermath would involve yet more massive amounts of death from starvation and illness.

      By all rights, Egypt should have been in an enormous crisis that would at the very least critically cripple the country for generations. It would give anybody a terrific opportunity to invade and conquer Egypt. Yet again, it didn't happen.

      First, from my understanding, this was one city/region in Egypt, not all of Egypt. Second, I'm not sure how it would have left ample evidence. That was a long time ago.

      Archaeology, for instance.

      - Not true. First, you should know that even among Biblical scholars, the numbers (population size) are disputed, BASED on the text (not just liberal skepticism).

      Bible disagrees. In multiple translations.

      More info here

    75. Re:To be fair by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      Try this [bricktestament.com]. I may just be a prude or paranoid, but if I lived in the States, I wouldn't want to be caught showing that to a child. I'd end up on the Sex Offender Registry.

      Damn, that's almost as dubious as Drew's original classic, "Lego porn" (NSFW!) from a decade or so back.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    76. Re:To be fair by Foxhoundz · · Score: 1

      Why are you deflecting? Regardless of his erroneous interpretation, when you boil away the fluff, God is a sick, twisted, perverted, and often hypocritical entity that has used humanity a punching bag.

    77. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In a work of fiction, how do you tell real characters and fictional characters apart?

    78. Re:To be fair by markus · · Score: 1

      According to Wikipedia, 33.3% of the world population considers themselves Christian, 21.0% considers themselves Muslim, and 0.2% considers themselves Jewish. All of these are Abrahamic religions who recognize the bible. Although they might not all agree on the interpretation and on the relevance of all parts of the bible, in particular of the texts in the New Testament.

      All of these religions also have additional written or oral traditions that go beyond the texts in the bible.

      In other words, about 55.6% of the world population believe that the bible tells the truth or part thereof; at the very least, they believe that it is the truth as perceived by its various authors. Of course, as with any historic text, it is difficult to understand more than the most superficial meaning without also knowing the author's background and the frame of reference of the targeted readership.

      Historians and religious scholars both continuously work to sort out these details. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they later discover that they got things wildly wrong. This isn't exactly easy research, and has often be the cause of political and religious conflicts and wars.

    79. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, Judaism regards the Torah as holy scripture. It's not the "Old Testament", there's nothing "old" about it except its age. As an atheist, I can tell you that the Jews at my temple cringe when people call the Torah, or the Tanakhk, or any of the commentaries, "The Old Testament". Because that implies there must be some kind of "New Testament", which most Jews don't tend to accept.

      Although, come to think of it, didn't Joseph Smith publish one around 1830 CE?

    80. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Though, to be fair, why should they not? They're not called "gods" for no reason!

      Were you a god, can you truly say you would not do as you pleased??

    81. Re:To be fair by lexsird · · Score: 1

      Strawman argument is full of straw.

      --
      Take the Red Pill.
    82. Re:To be fair by Grygus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Science and religion cannot co-exist because they are both searches for truth, but have different notions of the nature of truth. Religion treats basic truths as already known (my god exists and is responsible for everything) and then seeks to justify and glorify this base knowledge. Science assumes that truth is unknown and seeks to get closer to this unknown goal, regardless of where the search takes us. For religion to co-exist with science, the first step would have to be for you to admit that you might be worshiping the incorrect god and to be open to switching gods should evidence cast doubt on your current position; since that's incompatible with the very concept of "faith", the two approaches are irreconcilable.

    83. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ancient astronaut theory is the most popular non-religious, non-science nonsense, but that doesn't mean it's any good.

    84. Re:To be fair by mcvos · · Score: 2

      Actually that's not how belief works. Unless someone is brainwashed as a kid, you have to provide evidence that something is real for them to believe any of it and not expect them to try and disprove it.

      That's not how belief works. Every single person on earth believes tons of unproven things. Some of those are true, some aren't.

    85. Re:To be fair by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Eye witness testimony is a form of evidence:

      of all forms of evidence, eye-witness testimony is by far the least reliable.

      Google "Umbrella Man Errol Morris" for a great discussion of this.

      (hat tip to Jeremiah Cornelius)

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    86. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "True religion is free of dogma and superstition and embraces all truth."
      I'm not sure if you are aware of this... but when you take a bunch of beliefs and filter out the false ones, keeping the truth: a) you are going to have to eliminate some of them, and b) what you are left with is dogma.

      "whether or not they are true is completely secondary"
      Hmm... so Christ didn't care about truth? It doesn't matter if things are true or not? Didn't you just say Christ wants us to embrace all truth?

      Nice post of post-modern mumbo-jumbo though. Unfortunately, what is true for you doesn't happen to be true for the rest of us. ;)

    87. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Surely aural sex puts you at risk of catching hearing AIDS.

    88. Re:To be fair by khipu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Christian churches vastly overreport their membership. A very large number of Christians neither knows, nor agrees with, official Christian dogma and beliefs. Many are nothing but "cultural Christians".

    89. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 2

      "the first step would have to be for you to admit that you might be worshiping the incorrect god and to be open to switching gods should evidence cast doubt on your current position; since that's incompatible with the very concept of "faith""

      Maybe you don't realize this, but many religious folks have done, and do exactly that! You also don't have a very good definition of faith.
      Here are a couple articles I've written on the topic:
      http://www.tilledsoil.org/category/topics/faith-topics/

    90. Re:To be fair by KeensMustard · · Score: 1

      Then it will come as no surprise to you that the bible has been censored more than any other book in history - because of it's offensive content.

    91. Re:To be fair by khipu · · Score: 2

      Well, look at it this way: if that God exists exactly as you perceive him to be portrayed, what happens to you if you're one of the people who down-plays his might/existence?

      In that case, Gnosticism has a better explanation, identifying God with the demiurge.

      Even Christianity tells you that man knows right from wrong, so no matter what religious figures or holy texts say you, ultimately you should follow your own moral compass. If that conflicts with doctrine, it's likely doctrine that's wrong, even according to Christianity itself.

    92. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1, Funny

      re: #1 - OK, for example, explain consciousness within the atheistic worldview.

      re: #2 - Note that I did qualify what I said in that way. You might find that none match and be theistic, but have to invent or modify an existing religion.

      re: #3 - what don't you find plausible about Christianity?

      re: my site... very fair point, I'm just getting started there really. Check my 'Resources' page, as I doubt you'll find anything major not addressed in one of those. I'm glad you are thinking about this stuff though. Many here obviously are not.

    93. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 2

      Yea, it certainly is a matter of definition... nearly everything is.
      Well, you could have an something, an event... that maybe you really don't like (others might), but it wouldn't be evil. It might be beneficial or detrimental, but not evil. (Earthquakes, tsunamis, etc. aren't evil, btw.)
      You need objective morality to have either good or evil.
      For example, explain, on the atheistic worldview, what is 'evil' with burning a witch.

    94. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 2

      "How are these things evidence that christianity is true?"
      They aren't... they are evidence atheism is false, or at minimum for some of them, left wanting.
      For evidence that Christianity is true, I'd point you to the resurrection of Christ and the testimony of the witnesses.

      "How so?"
      Explain consciousness from the atheistic worldview... or how reason, logic, and information come from matter. (and those are just a start)

    95. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1, Funny

      "I'm curious - how do you 'rule out' religions?"
      You put their claims to the test. Is the universe eternal? Nope... there goes most Eastern religions. Is Mormonism even slightly historically accurate. Nope... not looking good. Was Joseph Smith a credible character... Nope... looking worse, etc. Did the author brag about making up a religion and his prophecies fail to come true? Yep... there goes Scientology.

      For some, it will be really simple. For others, it is more of a circumstantial case on a huge number of factors.

    96. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      You probably should have read my post... but to repeat again and again...
      Explain consciousness from the atheistic worldview... or how reason, logic, and information come from matter. (and those are just a start)

      To put it more simply, atheism as a worldview does't match reality as well as Christianity (by quite a bit).

    97. Re:To be fair by KeensMustard · · Score: 1
      Well firstly religion isn't what you think it is. The worldview of a buddhist or a hindu is vastly different to a Mormon, which is vastly different from a Muslim. To assume a taxonomy where the first branch is "belief" and "non-belief" is nonsensical.

      Religion treats basic truths as already known (my god exists and is responsible for everything) and then seeks to justify and glorify this base knowledge.

      Not all religions have a deity. Atheists treat their basic truth (humans created the Deities in their own image) as already known and bristle at the notion of having to prove that principle. The "mainline" monotheistic beliefs (Christianity/Islam/Judaism) assume that God was unknown, but then revealed himself to Abraham. So I can only speculate about who this categorisation covers.

      Science assumes that truth is unknown and seeks to get closer to this unknown goal, regardless of where the search takes us.

      Science is a branch of natural philosophy and a discipline that studies the observable in order to draw conclusions. It makes not conclusion about entities that cannot be observed via the scientific method.

      For religion to co-exist with science, the first step would have to be for you to admit that you might be worshiping the incorrect god and to be open to switching gods should evidence cast doubt on your current position; since that's incompatible with the very concept of "faith", the two approaches are irreconcilable.

      You should focus on how you justify your own beliefs, and worry less about the belief of others. And if you wish to criticise something, maybe learn a bit about what it is you are criticising first.

    98. Re:To be fair by KeensMustard · · Score: 1

      Or maybe it doesn't mean what you think it means.

    99. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      In this field, that info is a bit old.
      Also, many now disagree with Finkelstein.

    100. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      "I figure that if one has the position that accepting things on faith..."
      I think you need to define faith. Here is my definition and explanation:
      http://www.tilledsoil.org/category/topics/faith-topics/
      To put it simply, faith is trust based on evidence.

      re: Egypt -
      I'm not so convinced we'd have much archeological evidence (or at least evidence we could come down on one side or the other concerning the actual plagues). There is evidence for the Exodus itself. Another thing to remember is context. When the Bible says 'in all the land of Egypt', that doesn't necessarily mean what the literal reading might indicate. For example, the Bible said the flood covered the whole earth, or that all Israel was at temple celebrations, or that all the Canaanites were wiped out, etc. This last one might give us an interpretive key, as obviously, if we encounter Canaanites later on, they weren't all wiped out. When the Bible speaks in this way (common to other writings of the time), it generally means 'effectively all' rather than 'absolutely all'. For example, the flood did wipe out the whole earth of humanity (the purpose), or the Canaanites were conquered by Israel.

      re: population -
      I'm not well studied on that point, but my understanding is that there is a textual-critical issue, with most scholars agreeing on what you find in most Biblical translations. I'm just pointing out that the number is possibly in error, not arguing that it actually is. (ie: I won't die on that hill, nor consider the account inaccurate should we find the scale less than that number). Either way, I'm not sure we can archeologically rule it out based on that number.

      re; ebonmusings.org article -
      A bit over the top. For example, "every firstborn son in all of Egypt died (11:5), wiping out an entire generation of people". If you kill the firstborn of most ancient families, it certainly won't wipe out an entire generation. Most of the rest is problematic due to an overly-wooden reading of the account.

    101. Re:To be fair by Raenex · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I also think that atheists go too far... they see all of the problems of religion, but do not see the clear path through those problems to a set of beliefs that are not bound by the religionist superstitions and dogma.

      That's called philosophy, not religion.

      True religion is free of dogma and superstition and embraces all truth.

      What is this "true religion" you speak of? All you did was redefine religion to what you wanted it to be. Let's try a dictionary instead:

      "1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

      1.b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship."

      Of course, the average person doesn't have any direct experience with such powers, so they rely on religious authority in the form of dogma, prophets, religious texts, and the like.

      I happen to believe that it is only in and through Christ that one can have the most personal, the deepest, and the most significant growth.

      Ah, so this is your "true" religion. You have accepted religious authority from a prophet that was written about 2,000 years ago. You could also go with secular humanism and ditch the mysticism.

    102. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You make a good point, up to and until (and indeed, after) suggesting that the deepest personal growth comes from Christ, or any other religious figure. The deepest personal growth comes from within. It has nothing to do with one's religious position (or absence thereof). It is called personal growth because it is exactly that; personal. Whether one believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Jesus, Allah, Jehova, or the Christian God, the deepest growth always comes from oneself.

      You must be a light unto yourself in a world going dark. No one can lead you - no god, no human, no religion. Just you.

    103. Re:To be fair by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      There has never been any physical phenomena successfully explained by reference to supernatural phenomena. In fact there has never been evidence of the existence of supernatural phenomena despite the existence of large cash awards for such evidence.

      It is a logical fallacy to cite a phenomena for which there is no explanation for yet as evidence that supernatural phenomena exist.

    104. Re:To be fair by Raenex · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have plenty of evidence on which to believe Christianity to be true.... and conversely, plenty of evidence to believe other worldviews are false.

      Oh, good, then you're a good person to ask this question to. Why is there only one Christ? Surely an all-powerful god would give the same message to everybody in the world throughout all times? Yet we don't see Christian teachings in isolated places like China, the Americas, Africa, etc. in ancient history. And where was the Christian message before Christ?

      It's like different people, isolated around the world and left to their own devices, came up with different answers. Yet 2,000 years later we're supposed to believe the Christian Bible is the one true religion, and all those other ones are not.

    105. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      re: #1 - OK, for example, explain consciousness within the atheistic worldview.

      An atheistic worldview doesn't claim that we know everything. It is no more a valid question than asking to explain thunder without Thor.

      re: #2 - Note that I did qualify what I said in that way. You might find that none match and be theistic, but have to invent or modify an existing religion.

      The foundation of which relies on a god to fill in the unknowns, like how does consciousness work?

      re: #3 - what don't you find plausible about Christianity?

      Noah's flood. People living hundreds of years. Any number of miracles.

      An argument of an atheist vs a theist world view can also be framed as natural vs super-natural. A natural worldview proposes that every effect has a cause and that if you recreate the cause you will get the effect. A super natural one proposes that there are effects that do not have a reproducible cause.

    106. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1, Interesting

      There are two mistakes that people make. Mistake number one is to believe that it is possible to prove something using anything other than linear logic. The opposite mistake is to believe that since linear logic is the only way to prove something, it is the only way to know something. It is possible for you to know something that you cannot prove to me to be true. The fact that you cannot prove it to me, does not mean that it is not true. It does not even mean that you do not have sufficient evidence to consider it known.
      Personally, I do not understand how someone who is an atheist lives believing that nothing has any meaning and will inevitably end in the heat death of the universe.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    107. Re:To be fair by Surt · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's precisely what I meant. There's a common interpretation where God's word entered Mary though the ear as the holy spirit, and then dwelt in her womb, making her pregnant. Aural sex.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    108. Re:To be fair by vadim_t · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To put it simply, faith is trust based on evidence.

      No, you prove the distinction below. You start from the assumption of that the bible must contain truth, or at least be valuable, and try to interpret until it seems to fit. I go in the opposite direction: I look at each part, evaluate it on its own merits, and then assign a worth to the whole based on how the parts hold up.

      Another thing to remember is context. When the Bible says 'in all the land of Egypt', that doesn't necessarily mean what the literal reading might indicate. For example, the Bible said the flood covered the whole earth, or that all Israel was at temple celebrations, or that all the Canaanites were wiped out, etc.

      Then it's useless to even try to guess what it might mean, if you can create any tortured interpretation you want. I have no need to try to reconcile the bible with reality, as I'm not invested in it. If the bible's account doesn't add up, I don't try to twist the language into sort of fitting: I simply conclude it's wrong and move on.

      This last one might give us an interpretive key, as obviously, if we encounter Canaanites later on, they weren't all wiped out. When the Bible speaks in this way (common to other writings of the time), it generally means 'effectively all' rather than 'absolutely all'. For example, the flood did wipe out the whole earth of humanity (the purpose), or the Canaanites were conquered by Israel.

      Simpler explanations: whoever wrote the "all wiped out" part initially was wrong, or whoever wrote the later encounter of Caanites was wrong about them being Caanites, or the order of events is mistaken.

      A bit over the top. For example, "every firstborn son in all of Egypt died (11:5), wiping out an entire generation of people". If you kill the firstborn of most ancient families, it certainly won't wipe out an entire generation.

      Point. But it's still quite a few dead people, and the rest of the plague should kill quite a few more.

      Most of the rest is problematic due to an overly-wooden reading of the account.

      But that's precisely it. In science we do intentionally do everything in an overly wooden way. Correctness is paramount, and imprecision is heavily frowned upon. One thing that makes me so sure that the bible is bunk is the amount of fudging needed. If it was 100% solid that'd be impressive indeed, but it isn't, and needs "intrepretative keys" like you say above, and each of those I see as a failure.

    109. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Noah's Ark was not "found on top of a mountain", and the flood myth has been dismissed. Well, by everyone over the age of about 6 who has noticed the absolute lack of evidence.

    110. Re:To be fair by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      Evil - treating others in a way you would not want to be treated.

    111. Re:To be fair by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      What about my testimony? I hereby declare that I was there when Christ was crusified, and then camped next to his body for the next 500 years while it decomposed. Yes, I'm more then 2000 years old, and that Christ did NOT rise from the grave. As I've written this down it must be true!

    112. Re:To be fair by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      What makes Joseph Smith so much less credible then some other religious figures? What makes the apostoles more credible for example?

    113. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      By all rights, Egypt should have been in an enormous crisis that would at the very least critically cripple the country for generations. It would give anybody a terrific opportunity to invade and conquer Egypt. Yet again, it didn't happen.

      Except that Egypt was invaded and conquered by the Hyksos at a time that could potentially be related to the Israelite habitation in Egypt.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    114. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      all this talk of 'true religion' make me think about the one 'true scottsman'

      because religion is imperfect and people are highly malleable it causes more harm than good. the harm began before you were born when preachers were telling your parents what were okay, and it will continue long past you are dead with your descendants society impacted by these same parasites.

      some atheists choose to fight the good fight as is their right.

    115. Re:To be fair by 9jack9 · · Score: 1

      What is truth?

      I think it is possible to have a scientific outlook and still be willing to consider that there are ways of looking at the world which are worthwhile in which the nature of the human condition is examined in different terms than that of scientific exploration. The lens of scientific examination does not really work well for issues of human frailty, failure, death, grace, and forgiveness.

      Most religion isn't about that, though.

    116. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That was funny. A strawman response that managed to call-out the other's argumentum ad populum, in response to an opposing argumentum ad populum! Dueling fallacies with logical results.

      So back on task, people... we can't determine true or false from number of [non]believers.

    117. Re:To be fair by 9jack9 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      re: #1 - OK, for example, explain consciousness within the atheistic worldview.

      Strange loop. Self-referential pattern.

      re: #2 - Note that I did qualify what I said in that way. You might find that none match and be theistic, but have to invent or modify an existing religion.

      Perhaps if God is omnipotent, He exists in contradiction to any attempt to prove or disprove his existence. So maybe you can't get to religion through logic.

      re: #3 - what don't you find plausible about Christianity?

      Off the top of my head: TV preachers. Hucksters. Crusades. Slavery. Papal infallibility. Biblical inerrancy. Intelligent design. Teach the controversy. Creationism. Theocracy. Holy war. Female genital mutilation. Stoning adulterers. Pedophile priests.

    118. Re:To be fair by williamhb · · Score: 2

      Forceibly inpregnanting a child is one of the lesser of God's crimes according to the bible. How about several murders, numerous genocides - both direct and ordered - the creation of a realm of eternal torture... God is a nasty piece of work.

      Even those ten plagues are more evil than they seem. God manipulated Pharoh into refusing his instructions purely in order to give himself an excuse to let loose the plagues upon the rest of Pharohs country - and even goes so far as to admit to Moses that he didn't *need* to kill a substantial portion of the population of Egypt, but did so simply to ensure the people of Israel would never forget their debt to him.

      Your argument is that God plays God, and someone modded that as insightful?

    119. Re:To be fair by paxcoder · · Score: 1

      Where exactly is that, *Anonymous coward*? Yeah, I thought so.

    120. Re:To be fair by williamhb · · Score: 1

      Actually that's not how belief works. Unless someone is brainwashed as a kid, you have to provide evidence that something is real for them to believe any of it and not expect them to try and disprove it.

      Was it an intentional irony that your post provides no evidence for what you're saying?

    121. Re:To be fair by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      re: #1 - OK, for example, explain consciousness within the atheistic worldview

      So if you were alive before 1700, I suppose you would be asking us to explain lightening within the atheistic worldview? Just because we can't explain it doesn't mean it is therefore God.

    122. Re:To be fair by williamhb · · Score: 1

      However I find it odd that you are complaining about him calling the bible fiction, and somehow your argument against him is to point out that many Christians accept that it's fictional.

      You have a misconception in your head that "fictionality" is merely the opposite of "historicity". (Or more accurately, you are temporarily pretending to believe that "fictionality" is merely the opposite of "historicity" because you've been challenged on it, in order to then re-attach all the other meanings and connotations of the word later.)

      In fact the majority of Christians accept evolution, effectively acknowledging the entirety of Genesis is fiction.

      Ah, the misconception that people must only consider that choice to be binary and mutually exclusive. That's not what empirical research shows about people's beliefs in the matter.

      And when you know a global flood and walking talking snakes are fictional, I'm baffled why anyone would anyone believe it wasn't fictional for Jesus to be the son of a God and rose from the dead?

      And the misconception that the Bible is a single book that must adopt the same mode of communication throughout.

    123. Re:To be fair by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2

      You put their claims to the test. Is the universe eternal? Nope... there goes most Eastern religions.

      Is the Earth 7000 years old? Nope... there goes Christianity. Oh but it was metaphorical, or perhaps God days are longer than human days, or perhaps we can pick and choose facts from the Bible to believe while other religions we have to take as a whole. I find it amusing how easily you dismiss other religions while glossing over the absurdities of your own.

    124. Re:To be fair by Missing.Matter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Personally, I do not understand how someone who is an atheist lives believing that nothing has any meaning and will inevitably end in the heat death of the universe.

      Maybe because atheists find meaning in their own. lives and live fully knowing this is all there is and it's best to make use of what we're given.I don't need the promise of an after life to make this life worth living.

    125. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      Maybe because atheists find meaning in their own. lives and live fully knowing this is all there is and it's best to make use of what we're given.

      What meaning is that? and who gave it to you?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    126. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because true religion isn't about building a fancy church or enjoying an entertaining Sunday sermon or even about feeling good because you do so much gosh-darned service and aren't you such a good-boy? It is about personal, deep and real growth. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the Flood or Plagues or a 6-day creation or parting the Red Sea or any of the nifty stories (whether or not they are true is completely secondary). I happen to believe that it is only in and through Christ that one can have the most personal, the deepest, and the most significant growth. But I believe He commanded us to embrace all truth, not just the truths that make us feel good about ourselves and are easy and convenient for us.

      Well here's the rub: by saying "only in and through Christ" you are implying that you believe at least some of the supernatural parts of his story. Whether or not you believe those nifty stories are true are NOT secondary: it is critical. That belief is the difference between being a Christian and just being someone who thinks Jesus had some good ideas about morality and how to live your life.

    127. Re:To be fair by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      The meaning of my life is to pursue my happiness I gave it to myself.

    128. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How does belief make someone ignorant?

      How?

      ... I believe He commanded us to ...

      That's how.

    129. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True religion is free of dogma and superstition and embraces all truth.

      This cuts dangerously close to the no true scotsman fallacy, does it not?
       

      I am constantly baffled by the notion, spread by Christians and Atheists alike, that there is no peaceful coexistence (even peaceful coexistence inside the mind of a single person) between science and Christianity.

      Virgins giving birth, perpetual fire, people reaching impossible ages and still concieve children, packing every animal and instect on a boat, global flooding, spontaneus materializing of food, people surviving inside a whale, stories that supposedly describes the beginning of everything but doesn't mention anything beyond earth and talking animals. What could possibly cause cognitive dissonance? Unless, of course, you are not really a christian but just like to think of yourself as one. Like most people seem to do.
       

      It is about personal, deep and real growth.

      I have a really, really hard time seeing how this is. Self reflection and introspection seems like it can cause change but how does religion enter the picture?
       

      But I believe He commanded us to embrace all truth, not just the truths that make us feel good about ourselves and are easy and convenient for us.

      This is better than most religions but i must ask how you came to this conclusion. Starting with how you know there is a god followed by how he told you or where you read it and ending with how you verified that you were not under a misapprehension.

    130. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Pursuing your own happiness is not meaning.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    131. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Care to point out these "descriptions of acts of pedophilia and underage sex." And I'm talking about a real citation. Not just some ramblings of what you think is implied.
       
      I really don't expect you to answer this challenge at all. After all, this article is only on Slashshit to raise anti-religious sentiments on the same level as the Nazis used to bring hate on the Jews (which you probably would have bought into yourself in Germany, circa 1930). But if you do decide to go through and find the proof of your charges you'll probably take a few minutes out to read them for yourself and come to the conclusion that you're a flipping retard for ever having posted this nonsense in the first place.
       
      And before you start any more unfounded shit: No, I'm not a Christian. I think their religion is harmful on many levels but I feel that the basic tenants of the religion are pretty universal and non-harmful. I just hate fucks like you who buy into the current two-minute hate. After Slashdot realized that their bashing of MS was getting old they turned to politics. After they had to come to realize that the Democrats are the same kinds of shitbags as the Republicans they grew up a bit more and now are focused on religion. Once they wake up to the facts that people who use religion as a crutch for doing shitty things to other people don't really need an excuse, maybe the Slashtards will grow up a bit more. Until then we'll have to deal with fucktards like you who spread lies when there is enough good reasons to not adopt religion.
       
      You're kind of like the ass who "calculated" the Earth to be 6000 years old... You're not really citing anything. Your assumptions are false and it's only going to take one person to repeat your flawed ideas and people everywhere will be repeating it and those who know better will view the entire anti-Christian movement as idiotic for believing something that is an outright lie.
       
      In short; you're just as dogmatic, blind and foolish as those you're bashing.

    132. Re:To be fair by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      She turned me into a Newt!

      ... I got better!

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    133. Re:To be fair by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      Why not? You seem to be operating from some premise that there's something more out there and there's some grand scheme and a design to everything. Maybe that works for you. That's great. For me there is nothing like that, and there doesn't have to be. I'm internally happy knowing that all ends when I die. Therefore, as I see it, the purpose of my life (it's meaning) is to maintain that happiness. There's nothing more to it than that. Is there anything puzzling about this? It seems so straightforward to me.

    134. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Yes, there is something puzzling about that to me, when I thought about the universe the way you do, I could think of no reason to work as hard as living requires.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    135. Re:To be fair by pipedwho · · Score: 2

      Inconceivable.

    136. Re:To be fair by quenda · · Score: 1

      News flash: Christianity is only 33% of the world belief, so just by that measure, most of the world doesn't believe in the contents, making it a work of fiction in their view.

      That's unfair to Christians, most of whom know it is fiction too. They only need read as far as the sixth verse of the first book where God unambiguously creates the sky dome to hold back the waters above. Even creationist extremists begin to fumble and look away at this stage.

    137. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. His argument is that God is an evil, childish, jealous, psychotic, callous, vindictive, spiteful, murderous, sadistic piece of shit.

    138. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure plagues happen just not in the time frame that would help prove the bible in any way shape or form unless it's in your delusional head...

    139. Re:To be fair by clarkn0va · · Score: 1

      The fact that there is no shortage of charlatans willing to try to make a buck or usurp power in some other form within a stone's throw of the temple is not an argument against the legitimacy of the temple itself.

      --
      I am literally 3000 tokens away from the chaotic crossbow --Stephen
    140. Re:To be fair by Lanteran · · Score: 1

      Er... just a guess, but you don't really understand science, do you? Either way, citation DESPERATELY needed for when "the atheist world view utterly fails".

      --
      "People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
    141. Re:To be fair by Dhalka226 · · Score: 1

      I actually tend to agree with most of what you have said. I framed the difference as one of religion (organized belief) versus faith (belief), but believe much the same. (Ultimately, if you're curious, I still come out as an unbeliever.)

      One thing confuses me, however. How can you make that distinction and yet still turn to Christ? I can understand somebody reaching a decision that they believe in a god. Absent the influence of religion, that god can take any shape and any form the believer wishes, can have whatever history the believer wishes -- in essence, it is a belief that is unburdened with all the nonsense that makes religion such a joke to most atheists. But that being the case I see no reason to involve Jesus. Other than the Bible, and the teachings of Christianity, there is little reason to believe he was much more than a man.

      Selective belief in a religion's dogma is, I suppose, a step improved from unconditional belief, but I also can't see it as the free pursuit of truth you espouse. You are a Christian, if only a weak one. I'd hardly say that puts you in some elite 10% of believers who understand "true religion."

    142. Re:To be fair by Lanteran · · Score: 1

      Disregard my reply. Read further postings by you and reached my, *ahem* conclusion.

      --
      "People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
    143. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry guy, you are NOT the one who has room to lecture about logical fallacies.

    144. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      News flash: Christianity is only 33% of the world belief, so just by that measure, most of the world doesn't believe in the contents, making it a work of fiction in their view.

      Jews and Muslims consider the Bible part of their religion as well (at least the Old Testament part). Better get used to the fact that most of the people in the world are religious zealots.

      Islam is the world's second largest religion after Christianity. According to a 2009 demographic study, Islam has 1.57 billion adherents, making up 23% of the world population.

      , and lets not forget the Jews, who have their own Western tolerated genocidal religious zealotry.

      References:
      https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population

    145. Re:To be fair by eriks · · Score: 1

      You could also go with secular humanism and ditch the mysticism

      What if you're a secular humanist and also a mystic?

    146. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would argue that the world belief is much higher than the 33%. All of the three major monotheistic religions believe in the same god. They only argue about who the prophet is.

    147. Re:To be fair by n+dot+l · · Score: 1

      Personally, I do not understand how someone who is an atheist lives believing that nothing has any meaning and will inevitably end in the heat death of the universe.

      The word "meaning" describes a sort of mental state, so of course nothing intrinsically "has" any of it - not, that is, until I make some and attach it to its object. And even then that meaning still only actually exists within me.

      Personally, I don't understand how those who do believe that there is some intrinsic or higher meaning manage the strain of living in a universe so apparently intent on proving them wrong.

    148. Re:To be fair by n+dot+l · · Score: 1

      Ah. So then there's no true Christian.

    149. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What kind of pansy god doesn't prevent the misrepresentation of evil acts as virtues or charlatans claiming to be priests?

      If I were to go around saying I was a priest of my god whilst fucking children or claiming that my god approved of invading a neighboring country because they weren't believers, I'd be struck down.

      Clearly, the Christian god either doesn't care or is powerless/nonexistent.

    150. Re:To be fair by steelfood · · Score: 1

      re: #1 - OK, for example, explain consciousness within the atheistic worldview.

      Cogito, ergo sum. I think, therefore I am. For an atheist, that's sufficient. There's probably a scientific explanation, and we inch ever so closer to that every day with each study on how the human brain functions. But at the end of the day, there isn't a need to elaborate. There's no need to explain further that this one simple, basic truth. Everything beyond this isn't just purely speculative, but irrelevant and in all respects impractical.

      re: #2 - Note that I did qualify what I said in that way. You might find that none match and be theistic, but have to invent or modify an existing religion.

      Spirituality is not excluded by reality. Spirituality exists orthogonal to reality. Religion, which projects spirituality into reality in an organized fashion (for starters, it's written down), is however up for grabs. Atheists assert the lack of a greater being or purpose. Religion asserts the presence of such. There is a vast, fertile area in between the two. But it is not a religious one.

      Logic itself cannot describe our entire being, because as human beings, we're not creatures of pure logic. But religion does not begin at the end of logic; spirituality does. Religion attempts to fit this spirituality within the logical framework. The closest and best analogy for this is pretty much like trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

      re: #3 - what don't you find plausible about Christianity?

      Christianity's assertions are no more or less implausible than any other religious assertion. But to name a few specific to Christianity: the assertion that there's an afterlife; the idea that there's some kind of judgment in the afterlife; the idea that there's a good afterlife (heaven) and a bad one (hell), and that belief in Christianity itself is sufficient and necessary for gaining entrance into the good one; the assertion that a diety can and did directly interact with the world, but currently does not; the fact that good things happen to bad people while bad things happen to good people ("mysterious ways" does not qualify as a sufficient explanation for such phenomena), and this I've personally experienced; the fact that any "representative" does not hold any additional powers greater than a normal human being; AND the fact that there exists multiple religions, some with vastly different teachings, opinions, and methods to the good and bad afterlife. If said diety was indeed omnipotent, then there wouldn't be other religions at all, or even drastic offshoots because those would've eventually withered away.

      Everything points to one conclusion: religions are created by men. And you can argue the reason for their creation until you're blue in the face, but the effects of religion, in particular Christianity and its offshoots are plain. Religious wars. Genocide. Violent "misinterpretations." Corruption and other abuses of power. And the one I abhor the most: anti-intellectualism.

      And what are the benefits? Nothing a good community center wouldn't otherwise provide. Nothing education and strong community values wouldn't produce. Charity is not a thing limited to religions, and quite frankly, to do charity with the intent of promoting religion through it I find disingenuous at best.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    151. Re:To be fair by clarkn0va · · Score: 1

      ...I'd be struck down.

      Naturally. But not instantly, of course, or what then would agency have to do with anything? Just because your imagination doesn't stretch beyond the confines of mortality, don't assume that God's doesn't either.

      --
      I am literally 3000 tokens away from the chaotic crossbow --Stephen
    152. Re:To be fair by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "You need objective morality to have either good or evil."

      Citation needed.

    153. Re:To be fair by Nursie · · Score: 1

      I remember that Noah's ark was found on top of a mountain, then I remember that story being "debunked", but no one ever explained how a huge freaking boat just happened to be on top of that mountain.

      It turned out to be a rock/mineral formation that was found, not a wooden boat frame.

      Sorry.

    154. Re:To be fair by bidule · · Score: 1

      I am sorry, but the world was created 5 minutes ago. You never wrote your post but were created with memories of having done so. In fact, I never wrote this post either but my mind was filled with matching beliefs.

      You were created when you started to read this post and anything previous to that is fake memory. Anyone who says they read it before you suffers from the delusions that were implanted in their minds.

      I guess that might explain why some believers say there was a great flood in the fantasy of their past. If they cannot prove me wrong, they'll have to see the truth.

      --
      ID: the nose did not occur naturally, how would we wear glasses otherwise? (apologies to Voltaire)
    155. Re:To be fair by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 1
      Define consciousness. Then provide evidence that you possess it. Then provide evidence that someone else possesses it. As an aside, explain how consciousness implies a theistic world-view.

      It's not as if you're the first person to think "gotcha!" by pointing at consciousness.

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

    156. Re:To be fair by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      All religions over-report their membership. Islam has something similar - it counts every child of a male Muslim as Muslim automatically, and there's no provision to opt out (at least not in the core belief; some countries may be more liberal when doing census).

    157. Re:To be fair by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      OK, for example, explain consciousness within the atheistic worldview.

      You'd first need to define what consciuousness means, exactly. But a surface explanation would be something along the lines of "electromagnetic activity in a sufficiently complex brain.

      what don't you find plausible about Christianity?

      Pretty much most of Genesis, good chunks of Old Testament in general, Jesus's miracles and his resurrection.

      Islam, for example, is much more down-to-earth in comparison - Muhammad lived and died as any other person, and he didn't perform any feats that require supernatural explanation... he could just as well be very good at things he did. Or very lucky.

    158. Re:To be fair by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You need objective morality to have either good or evil.

      Objective morality does not require god or gods, though. It only requires accepting a certain point as a basis. An atheist can accept some external notion as such (as e.g. secular humanists do), or accept his own perception as absolute.

    159. Re:To be fair by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Is the universe eternal? Nope... there goes most Eastern religions.

      You don't know if the answer is truly "no". Sure, Big Bang is the most likely model as of today, but it's not the only one, and even within it, there's a possibility of an infinitely expanding and contracting universe, in which there may not have been the "first Big Bang" as such.

      Is Mormonism even slightly historically accurate. Nope... not looking good.

      By that measure, more than half of Old Testament would be thrown out.

      Or, you can define it as "allegorical". But then you can do the same with Mormonism, as LDS Church does these days.

    160. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget male genital mutilation either!

    161. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      How about the Big Bang or Christ's resurrection? (physical phenomena best explained by supernatural causes)

    162. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For evidence that Christianity is true, I'd point you to the resurrection of Christ

      That is completely irrational. I refer you again to "Begging the Question".

    163. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 0

      "Strange loop. Self-referential pattern."
      Atheism not only can't explain it, but it isn't possible for it to do so... that's the problem.

      "So maybe you can't get to religion through logic."
      Well, one could argue that you can't avoid religion BECAUSE of logic.

      "Off the top of my head: TV preachers. Hucksters ..."
      What do those have to do several of those have to do with Christianity?
      Do you understand Biblical inerrancy? How about ID?
      Would you like to discuss any one of them? I'm game.

    164. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ancients weren't trying to shop for the most charming deities. They were trying to cope with the harsh realities. If life was cruel and capricious, that was because of the cruel and capricious gods. If you wanted to better your chances in life, you needed to placate those gods instead of rebelling against them or wishing them away, which would have only resulted in a severe punishment.

      It was much later that the concept of a likable, loving God developed, but even the most liberal-minded modern Christians are God-fearing for a reason.

    165. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      Very true. But unlike lightening... there can't be a naturalistic explanation for consciousness, free choice, reason, logic, or information. It would be a category error.
      Let me make this a bit more simple.... naturalism (materialism) = determinism = this conversation isn't real. You and I are not conscious, freely thinking, reasoning, using logic, or typing out information. We're merely acting out some what some combination of atoms happened to produce.

    166. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      Christianity and Christians are two different things. Christianity could be true if there weren't a single true Christian.

    167. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      So would a thorough history book, for basically the same reasons.

      History isnt exactly squeeky clean no matter where you look.

    168. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      Or, maybe in some cases, he's letting us have our just deserts. Why do you think God owes you (or anyone) to step in and fix our mess? (That said, I actually think He did.)

    169. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many or most of these people barely go to church but regularly use their beliefs to bash others in a desperate attempt to help themselves feel good.

    170. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember that Noah's ark was found on top of a mountain, then I remember that story being "debunked", but no one ever explained how a huge freaking boat just happened to be on top of that mountain

      Because it wasn't found. Every few years a group dedicated to finding it goes out, announces that they are 99% sure that what they found is the ark, and then never announce anything afterward.

      This means that either they require everyone who believes them to take in on faith that what they found is real, or that they were unable to prove conclusively -even to themselves- what they found. Not that any of these arks are ever in the same place, of course.

    171. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1, Troll

      I would posit that you are building a strawman out of false assumptions and interpretations. Do you seriously think that noone who believes the bible has actually read the bible? Or are you suggesting that you somehow have a better grasp on it, its context and purpose, than those who study it daily?

      Just as an example, if the bible's basic premise-- that there IS an omniscient, omnipotent, perfectly just God who is responsible for all things-- were true, than it would manifestly not be unjust for him to enact penal justice on any one of his creations that acted against him. But of course you have decided to build this strawman based on attributing the status of a man to God, and then judging him from that position. Why certainly, a man doing some of the deeds that God has done would be evil-- precisely because he is NOT God and lacks the proper authority.

      But I grow weary, I know a flamewar will likely result out of this, and though I felt it necessary to respond to such an absurd post, I really have no desire to argue ad naseum with people who will likely be more interested in attacking religion than in having a civil discussion.

    172. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      "we inch ever so closer to that every day with each study on how the human brain functions"
      The brain isn't the mind. The brain is like a RAM chip, it's the program I'm talking about.

      "Logic itself cannot describe our entire being"
      Logic exists apart from human beings... which essentially proves theism (ie: disproves atheism... which leaves theism).

      "assertion that there's an afterlife," etc.
      Why isn't that plausible?

      "the assertion that a diety can and did directly interact with the world, but currently does not"
      Who claims that?

      "the fact that good things happen to bad people while bad things happen to good people"
      Why would we not expect that... the Bible says this will be the case. (see Job for example)

      "the fact that any "representative" does not hold any additional powers greater than a normal human being"
      Not true.

      "the fact that there exists multiple religions"
      What does that have to do with it? We'd expect that given the Christian worldview.

      "If said diety was indeed omnipotent, then there wouldn't be other religions at all"
      Why?

      "And the one I abhor the most: anti-intellectualism."
      Me too.... note though, many of the smartest people that ever lived (and live today) are Christians... hmm.

      "And what are the benefits?"
      Oh, I don't know... science, hospitals, the education system, women's rights, abolition of slavery... ;) Me thinks you need a history course or two.

    173. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      They canot have faith and facts at the same time;

      Your entire post presents a false dichotomy, and completely misunderstands what is meant by faith.

      A) It IS possible to have faith and believe in facts at the same time. I am doing so right now-- I am a christian who factually believes, for one, that I am typing on a computer right now. I also believe that the geneologies presented in various places in the bible were meant to be read as factual. I also believe in the historical facthood of Jesus crucifixion.

      B) Faith is described by the christian faith (I think in Hebrews) as a belief in things promised and things unseen. There are a great number of things in the bible which WERE seen by people who were nevertheless called to faith as well. For instance (and we're all going to assume that the bible is true for the moment), the apostles would have clearly seen Jesus post resurrection, and yet they were called to faith-- faith in something else, the things they had not seen, the promises to come. If you start with the bible's premises (which you must do if you are trying to argue against its chain of reasoning), you see that they had both faith and knowledge of facts.

      C) Referencing...

      and stupid people think they should have faith but call it fact because they don't have an inteligent grasp of ther language.

      And ignorant people try to build an argument against a greek text based on english definitions, especially when said texts clearly define what they mean.

    174. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      Hey, my claim is that I'm created in the image of God (a personal agent)... not the product of randomly bouncing atoms. I'd say the duty rests on the one making the impossible claim. We can argue about whether or not I can prove my view, but at least it is plausible.

    175. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      And more people believe in christianity than in any other belief system, if all this is true.

      Its still not terribly relevant to the question "what is true", unless you want to ground your beliefs in crowdsourced wisdom.

    176. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Overreporting their membership is different than skewed statistics. Membership has nothing to do with what a person believes in their heart, it has to do with who went through the membership process and is in regular attendence. That is rather easy to measure.

      You are right however that polls can show wildly varying statistics on the number of Christians in an area. For instance, start your poll with "do you believe in Jesus", and you might get 80% yes. Continue on to "do you believe that Jesus saves" and you might get 70%. Finally ask "do you believe in a personal God who judges people for their sins", and watch that number plummet to about 40%.

      Christianity has become very much a part of US culture to the extent where people will declare themselves christians simply because they try to live by some moral code and be nice to others. Im sure everyone who understands this-- athiest and christian alike-- would agree that it is not an ideal state of affairs, when 40-50% of your population doesnt know what they believe.

    177. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      I could just as easily ask anyone here how they know that there is a black hole at the center of our galaxy. Eventually, except for a very select few, they will fall back to "someone else told me so"; they simply happen to believe that source to be credible.

      I think it is unfair to act like when it comes to mundane, natural facts, all athiests have all the evidence and have personally examined it-- thats just not accurate.

    178. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      Best is subjective. If there is no transcendence to the human existence and no purpose behind all that is, then everything is, in the end, of no meaning, of no relative worth; it simply is what it is.

      You can try to build morality and meaning into that, but it is artificial.

    179. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      Ill answer your third point because I have heard it so often.

      The Bible and basically every conservative denomination will affirm that men are basically bad-- even those who claim to follow christ. Further, they understand that not all who call upon the name of Christ are actually his followers (in fact its in the New Testament-- "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you.')

      Why then would it be hard to understand how people claiming the name of Christ can commit terrible deeds? For goodness sake, the Jews' greatest hero from the Old Testament-- David-- was not only an adulturer, but a murderer: he had Bathsheeba's husband murdered by sending him to the worst part of a battle and then withdrawing all support.

      As for female genital mutilation and pedophile priests, you may want to look elsewhere than protestantism.

      As for Intelligent design, are you saying that you dont find Christianity credible because people push to have it taught? What strange kind of logic is this?

    180. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Certainly you can, it is just a matter of definition. Say, trying to scare small kiddies with hell if they don't believe is "true evil" in my book.

      And here is the grave error in your argument. True is a word that implies an objectivity; objectivity requires an absolute scale. But you are saying that evil is defined on a relative, subjective scale, and denying that there is any higher authority to which one could appeal for such an objective scale.

      Care to clarify how this all works out?

    181. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 0

      Is the Earth 7000 years old? Nope... there goes Christianity.

      Oh hey, heres a belief which is neither central to christianity nor agreed upon by all christians. Lets attack that and then declare we have disproved christianity!

      Seriously, how can people have the gall to ridicule christianity for being irrational and then try to prove their position with a fallacy?

    182. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Evidence is data which lends credence to a hypothesis. It does not have to be conclusive. You may want to break out that dictionary again, there is evidence for Christianity, as well as other religions. Some of it is just more compelling.

    183. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      I would wonder then what all our history books are based on. I had understand the large majority (names, places, etc) to come from written records.

    184. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      True religion is free of dogma and superstition and embraces all truth.

      ....That....kind of depends on what you believe to be truth, doesnt it? I thought that was the whole point?

      Your post reads as if you are endorsing a soft religion which doesnt really believe anything at all, which would in the end be worthless. No thanks

      But I believe He commanded us to embrace all truth,

      And its OK for you to believe that, just as it would be OK for me to believe that I got all As in 12th grade English. But we would both be wrong, irrespective of our beliefs.

      If I were to posit that all doors will open for you if you approach them at high speed, would that be an example of a truth you should embrace? Or is more selectivity in what you embrace in order?

    185. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      So according to most of the planet, the bible is fiction.

      If I could pull out a credible source which said that more than 70% of the planet believes atheism to be wrong, what would that do to your train of reasoning? Because it seems to me it would expose it for the appeal to authority that it is.

    186. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      In fact the majority of Christians accept evolution, effectively acknowledging the entirety of Genesis is fiction.

      If they believe Genesis to be entirely fiction, then they are manifestly not christian-- not by current definitions, not by historical ones.

      But then again, you clearly havent read Genesis, because even if we were to accept every last claim of the evolutionary theory, it would impact perhaps the first 3 chapters of a 40 chapter book. Im not seeing what it does for the history regarding Moses, and the egyptian captivity, for example.

      I do like that apparently, on slashdot, if you spout factually incorrect (and trivially provable, too) anti-religion rhetoric, you can get modded to +5 for it.

    187. Re:To be fair by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      So you are arguing that it is ok for God to kill needlessly, torture people and play around like a boy with an anthill and a magnifying glass because God made people, and so can do whatever he pleases? But by that logic, would it not be just as acceptable for parents to rape and torture their children? Or for animal breeders to throw a dog into a garbage compactor just for fun? You are undermining the entire concept of morality with your argument by apparently claiming those in a position of authority are exempt - with God, the ultimate authority, naturally getting the ultimate exemption. I'm sure there are plenty of oppressive dictators who would love the notion that those in charge have free licence though.

    188. Re:To be fair by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You forgot egotistical. The first four of the ten commandments are all variations upon the theme of 'Worship me!' - as is much of the old and new testaments. For an omnipotent being, God is really desperate for attention. As for the descriptions of the throne room... God saw fit to include a choir of angels that does nothing but eternally sing in praise of how great God is.

    189. Re:To be fair by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Some forms of Christianity say that, in theory. In practice, most of them will just assume anyone who disagrees with the denominations official policies has their moral compass malfunctioning and needs to be corrected. The biggest one, the Roman Catholic Church, still holds that the Church is the exclusive and unquestionable authority on all issues of morality.

    190. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      So you are arguing that it is ok for God to kill needlessly, torture people and play around like a boy with an anthill and a magnifying glass because God made people,

      Never said that, please re-read my post. I am not a fan of repeating myself, nor am I a fan of people twisting my words into something they are not.

      But by that logic, would it not be just as acceptable for parents to rape and torture their children?

      No, but then you seem to have failed to grasp what my argument was to begin with; im still not sure whether you are doing so on purpose or not. Are you?

    191. Re:To be fair by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      re: #1 - OK, for example, explain consciousness within the atheistic worldview.

      Explain consciousness within the theistic world view of your choice. make reference to any experimental evidence you have that proves your explanation is not just somebody guessing.

      re: #3 - what don't you find plausible about Christianity?

      Dead man coming alive again.

      The idea that it is necessary to kill your son who is also yourself (temporarily) in order to forgive people for crimes that their ancestors committed or that a loving god would come up with such an idea.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    192. Re:To be fair by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 2

      I am scared like hell by guys like you, by people who can't envision anything good or meaningful without having it handed to them by their priest. Exactly how depraved are you?

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    193. Re:To be fair by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Except that there is not a shred of archaeological evidence for Israelites ever having been in Egypt. Not a shred. At least half of the historiographic account in the Bible is pure propaganda.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    194. Re:To be fair by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Ehm, I usually do not do this, but... citation? Seriously, I'd love to get my hands on some serious text making that claim. The mind boggles, as if pounded by God's supernatural hardon through the ear canal.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    195. Re:To be fair by dkf · · Score: 1

      Well! Maybe on your planet.

      Due to the binding energy of the nitrogen-nitrogen triple bond, I think you'll find that N2 is not a good oxidation agent anywhere in the universe. (It might be a reasonable building material some places though.)

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    196. Re:To be fair by TxRv · · Score: 1

      The Old Testament establishes the fact that God is a total dick early on. It's pretty obvious that God didn't create humanity to laze around the Garden of Eden for all eternity (that would violate the laws of narrative causality - there would be no story, and therefore no religion). That forbidden tree was put there with full knowledge that Adam and Eve would fuck up and eat from it. Even worse, God created the Serpent to trick them. Humans are the only ones with Free Will, so the Serpent was *fated* to trick Eve. (I don't want to hear any bullshit about the Serpent being Satan - those characters weren't linked until Revelations, which doesn't really count. The New Testament is just Old Testament fanfic.)

      Plagues, genocide, and torture are small potatoes. We're talking about the guy who INVENTED SUFFERING.

    197. Re:To be fair by dkf · · Score: 1

      Evolution does not generate new species within a span of 6000 years.

      I think you're wrong there; there's evidence of speciation rates in higher animals faster than that in some parts of the world (some of the Galapagos finches? I forget exactly) and I think natural speciation has been observed at the 100-year timescale, as I remember seeing it reported recently (and a great many scientists were surprised to have detected it happening). However, what appears to actually be the case is that evolution (by natural selection) keeps species about the same for long periods of time, and then something happens to shake up some aspect of the environment and adaptation happens pretty rapidly.

      Which isn't to say that it's likely everything evolved in 6000 years. That's a stupidly short timescale for the scale of the natural world.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    198. Re:To be fair by EsbenMoseHansen · · Score: 1

      Certainly you can, it is just a matter of definition. Say, trying to scare small kiddies with hell if they don't believe is "true evil" in my book.

      And here is the grave error in your argument. True is a word that implies an objectivity;

      No. True is simply a value we assign to a fact. The only constraint is that it is logically consistent with the remaining true facts.

      objectivity requires an absolute scale.

      It doesn't matter since your argument has already collapsed, but which objectivity do you mean here? The philosophical reaction to rationalism, or perhaps scientific objectivity?

      But you are saying that evil is defined on a relative, subjective scale, and denying that there is any higher authority to which one could appeal for such an objective scale.

      Of course. Doing otherwise would be insane.

      Care to clarify how this all works out?

      That should be obvious, at least on an instinctive level. Almost every human have a instinct that tells them what is evil and what is not. Note that it doesn't matter for the argument what the exact definition is: As long as evil exists, god (as omnipresent,omnipotent,good) is logically impossible.

      --
      Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
    199. Re:To be fair by TehNoobTrumpet · · Score: 1

      I really don't mean to be a condescending dick, but I REALLY do feel pity for people who think like you. Isn't just experiencing life enough?

    200. Re:To be fair by EsbenMoseHansen · · Score: 1

      The witch is violated. No one sane can call that act anything but evil, given what we know today.

      The only thing that makes earthquakes "not evil" is that no one can prevent them. If you are in a position where you cost-free can prevent and earth-quake, not doing so is certainly evil. And an omnipotent and omniscient god is by definition an entity which could do so.

      Whether an event is evil depends on the viewers in question. E.g, I find censoring evil, but not everyone do so. This extends to groups in the obvious manner.

      --
      Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
    201. Re:To be fair by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      I understand your argument. You are saying that even if God does apparently evil things, they are not evil when God does them because the rules don't apply to him.

    202. Re:To be fair by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      I think teh lulz are rather frowned upon in Calvinism....

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    203. Re:To be fair by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Leaving the tree there utterly undefended... what God did is the equivilent of leaving a toddler alone in a room with a bowl of sweets and an order not to eat them, then declaring that the only fit punishment for the inevitable eating of the sweets is execution.

    204. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least she was 12 and not 9.

    205. Re:To be fair by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Hell? Where is that bullcrap mentioned in the bible again? Oh yea, there are 2 references, which most likely don't even have a supernatural connotation. So, even from a biblical inerrancy viewpoint, the whole concept is just a steaming pile.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    206. Re:To be fair by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Nothing. I'm not appealing to authority, nor trying to argue that reality is democratic.

      I'm simply answering to the incredulity of the "work of fiction?!?!?" bit, by pointing out that the view isn't particularly odd.

    207. Re:To be fair by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      Rene Descartes famously argued that conceivability entailed possibility, and then went on to claim to conceive of various nonsense things and conclude therefore that they were possible. "I conceive..." this "I conceive..." that, truly inconceivable things the lot of them, only nominally "conceivable". He keeps using that word. I do not think it means what he thinks it does.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    208. Re:To be fair by Gabrill · · Score: 1

      Yet you find it normal to believe in a book that you admit is full of metaphors. And there is no hint as to which parts are metaphor, which are tall tales, which ones are crowd-fooling shenanigans, and which ones are simply the musings of a peacenik.

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    209. Re:To be fair by Gabrill · · Score: 1

      I created my own meaning with my life choices and philosophies. Why do your morals and intents have to be spoon fed to you?

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    210. Re:To be fair by Gabrill · · Score: 1

      While it may not satisfy you to determine your own life path, I assure you it is plenty for me. Perhaps you are confusing simple pleasure with the happiness of obtaining life goals, increasing the value of your family, your community, and ultimately all you affect.

      You shouldn't have a problem with the concept that each individual chooses the morality that he will follow. We only differ in the source and goal of that morality.

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    211. Re:To be fair by Gabrill · · Score: 1

      I don't rely on irrelevant theories to maintain my existence, be they black holes OR sacrifice eating jealous gods. But the black hole thing at least is a plausible explanation for the galaxy that is RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    212. Re:To be fair by Gabrill · · Score: 1

      What makes you think all those written records are accepted without corroborating evidence?

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    213. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      No, I do not have a problem with the concept that "each individual chooses the morality he will follow." I understand that many people are unwilling to attempt to live up to truly moral standards and therefore choose to define the standards they are willing to live up to as "moral".

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    214. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      And when you die, you believe that it will all cease. In the long run, what difference does it make?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    215. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Well, I feel pity for people like you who believe that everything they will accomplish in life is meaningless and of no lasting value.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    216. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      In the 1800s, there was not a shred of archaeological evidence that the Assyrians had ever existed. Therefore, people like you believed that the Biblical accounts of the Assyrians were pure propaganda. It turns out that the archaeologists were wrong and that we currently know that the Biblical accounts of the Assyrians not only talk about a real people but are a fairly accurate account of those people.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    217. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I am sorry, where do you get the idea that I get anything from a priest?br> I would think that people like you, who believe that everything that is ends when they die and they will never be held accountable for their actions.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    218. Re:To be fair by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      You put forth the idea that you personally had no idea about ethics, but needed to be given it to you by some kind of higher authority. Generally, we call that authority a priest when talking about religion. Or does you god talk to you personally? Which, by the way, would be even more scary.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    219. Re:To be fair by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      So your truth rests on the fact that sometimes, perhaps, evidence may show up? Evidence on some historical account that contradicts all others? Fine, go ahead.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    220. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      You put forth the idea that you personally had no idea about ethics, but needed to be given it to you by some kind of higher authority.

      I'm sorry, but I do not see where I said that in this thread. I said that I do not understand how someone lives believing that nothing has any lasting value.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    221. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Whereas your allegation that the Bible is just made up stories relies on the fact that our incomplete knowledge of the period based on alternate sources does not support the account given in the Bible. When creationists use similar arguments against evolution it is, rightly, derided as a "God of the gaps" argument.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    222. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lightening is easy enough to explain; remove some mass and the object is lighter.

      Lightning, though, is a tougher puzzle.

    223. Re:To be fair by tbannist · · Score: 1

      i don't know what's wrong with teaching the controversy. The most difficult part is deciding which controversy to teach...

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    224. Re:To be fair by data2 · · Score: 1

      So because everything would be without meaning otherwise, there has to be something transcendental? Many people seem to make that deduction.

    225. Re:To be fair by tbannist · · Score: 1

      You need objective morality to have either good or evil.

      Not exactly, moral relativists can consider things good or evil based on societal norms, for example.

      For example, explain, on the atheistic worldview, what is 'evil' with burning a witch.

      Well, in most atheistic world views there is no such thing as a witch, so to most atheists you are simply asking what is wrong with religious persecution and murder. Frankly, most atheists will tell you there's a lot wrong with it. Many atheists would tell you that it is wrong, evil if they feel like being dramatic, to deliberately harm another person. It's simply the golden rule: don't do to other people what you wouldn't want done to you. It's interesting that you choose "burning a witch" to defend the morality of Christianity.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    226. Re:To be fair by tbannist · · Score: 1

      You mean the testimony written a century or more after the face by people who spoke to people who knew the people who supposedly witnessed the events?

      I'm sure any rational person will clearly tell you that 100 year old hearsay is the most reliable form of evidence.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    227. Re:To be fair by tbannist · · Score: 2

      Most atheists have to actually decide what meaning they will put into their lives, and they craft the meaning for themselves.

      It's actually more difficult than being a Christian but also more rewarding.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    228. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe in my Ipod.

    229. Re:To be fair by MrMickS · · Score: 1

      >p>Then there's that the bible references plenty events that clearly didn't happen, such as a global flood or the plagues of Egypt, which definitely is fiction.

      If you look at the plagues of Egypt they are all possible. Even down to children being struck down dead. Literal interpretation is always a stretch but there have been a number of programmes looking at the facts behind various Old Testament stories and a lot of it can be explained without having to make a leap of faith.

      --
      You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
    230. Re:To be fair by tbannist · · Score: 1

      Temporary things can have value too you know. A child's smile doesn't last forever, but it is still worthwhile. In fact joy is valued because it is transient. Permanent joy can be accomplished with a pharmaceutical drip, however, such permanent bliss robs joy of all value and destroys the person subjected to it.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    231. Re:To be fair by tbannist · · Score: 2

      You remember them finding a wooden house on a mountain and the claiming the fact that wood was found on a mountain meant it was the ark. As one historian put it "I don't recall any expedition that set out to find Noah's ark, that didn't ultimately [claim to] find it". Of course the really strange part is they never find it in the same place twice. It's truly amazing how they manage to find a new one every few years.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    232. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      Thats only a barely accurate summary of my post. Im saying that its not murder for a judge to execute the guilty upon conviction, and that God would qualify as the perfect judge due to his knowledge of the facts, his power to enforce, and his innate justice.

      I do not think that any arbitrary evil deed would become a good deed if God were to perform it, there are things which God would not do because they would in fact remain evil deeds. I do not think God has done any, and most of the accusations leveled against God are examples of penal justice (and are in fact labeled as such in the bible-- see Habakkuk, for example).

    233. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      What makes you think the bible was, or that christians do so?

    234. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      No. True is simply a value we assign to a fact. The only constraint is that it is logically consistent with the remaining true facts.

      Objectivity and fact are synonyms. Something that is objective has a truth value that is irrespective of anyone's perceptions or beliefs. A for absolute scale, it depends on what is being discussed-- if it is "existence", the scale is "exists" or "does not exist". Some things have scale with more shades inbetween.

      But you are saying that evil is defined on a relative, subjective scale, and denying that there is any higher authority to which one could appeal for such an objective scale.

      Of course. Doing otherwise would be insane.

      The problem remains that you cannot call your own personal beliefs "true" while asserting that they are subjective. Either they are true, or they are not, and truth is NOT subjective.

    235. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      I have never heard anyone claim that as the reason for their belief, and its certainly not the foundation for any apologetic I've heard. It was just an observation of the futility of trying to find an objective meaning or purpose in a random universe.

    236. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      You have no chance of seeing the black hole, not only because of the distance but because of its innate unobservability. Your only evidence for its existence is what others have written, and I would guess that the sources which you have read do not include every scrap of evidence and math necessary to make its deduction possible.

      That is my point; everyone takes much of what they "know" on the same kind of "faith" that christians have, especially historical events (which do not have a mathematical basis which can be derived independently).

    237. Re:To be fair by Killjoy_NL · · Score: 1

      Heh fun thing to say with your nickname :)

      --
      This is the sig that says NI (again)
    238. Re:To be fair by Surt · · Score: 1

      http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?1587-Conceiving-Jesus-through-the-ear

      You can find various cites through google, but the above offers a relatively clear-cut explanation.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    239. Re:To be fair by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Science is not the search for truth. Philosophy is the search for truth. Science is the search for how things work. When science starts to try to explain truth, then they have become a religion and any of their findings are suspect.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    240. Re:To be fair by ultranova · · Score: 1

      There has never been any physical phenomena successfully explained by reference to supernatural phenomena.

      That's a tautology, because "supernatural" is simply used for things not (currently) covered by physics. If you could prove that, say, sudden temperature changes in an old house were caused by ghosts, then ghosts would become a subject of research and would thus not be supernatural anymore.

      That's why this entire discussion is pretty pointless, IMO: either a given kind of entity or phenomenom exists or not, but if it does, on what basis would it be any less "natural" than any other entity or phenomenom?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    241. Re:To be fair by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      God is a nasty piece of work.

      Just wait 'til he starts smiting, you'll soon change your tune then. After a couple of good smitings you'll be all "truly You are a God of Love, oh Lord".

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    242. Re:To be fair by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I wish more Christians/Jews/Muslims understood this. Even after the conceptual hurdle that is belief in a higher authority, their God is a colossal dick. Who the fuck wants to hop on that bandwagon?

      I think the standard answer is that God moves in mysterious ways His wonders to perform, a line I'm fairly sure He nicked off Bono.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    243. Re:To be fair by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      Abrahamic religions and modern scientific thought both rely upon faith. They both presume that reality has rules which can be used to predict what will happen, that a model can be created and our existence will be improved if we use the model to govern our behavior.

      Contrast this with religions that consider this world to be no more predictable than the worlds they encounter in their dreams, and they start to look more similar than different.

      Personally, I consider the drive to have humanity to acknowledge "one true God" to have been an essential step towards modern scientific thought. It was about uniting multiple primitive knowledge systems into one and creating a common framework for the propagation and dissemination of untapped tribal knowledge.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    244. Re:To be fair by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      Maybe because atheists find meaning in their own. lives and live fully knowing this is all there is and it's best to make use of what we're given.

      What meaning is that? and who gave it to you?

      In the immortal words of the master bard: "Thou art God."

      Generate meaning from within, don't allow others to impose it arbitrarily from without. Just because this is all there is, doesn't make it meaningless, but each and every person has to define that meaning for themselves. Some do opt for culturally-acceptable shortcuts like religion, which is fine as long as you fully examine the the tenets you allow in and find them compatible with your own internal logic. And as long as you can accept that others can and will winkle their own set of meanings out of the same data set, or reject the data set altogether and seek out other data.

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    245. Re:To be fair by skine · · Score: 1

      While a large portion of our historical knowledge comes from texts, that doesn't automatically imply that ancient texts should all be taken at face value.

      So, say you run across an ancient tome. How can you determine whether its claims are true?

      The two places to look in order to verify its veracity would be other texts written by independent authors in the same era and physical evidence. So, for a couple (contrived) examples:

      1) Authors in France, England, Germany and Denmark all mention the then current King of Belgium. They respectively name the king Jean, John, Jan and Brian. So, you can be reasonably sure that the King of Belgium was named John (or very similar), AND you can be reasonably sure that the Danish author should not be trusted.
      2) An author writes about a volcanic eruption. This could be verified either by a) seeing that other authors wrote about a strange black cloud that rained down ash, or you could verify it by finding physical evidence, such as a layer of volcanic sediment at the appropriate depth.
      3) The OT mentions something about a global flood that covered the Earth in water for 40 days. There are quite a few records from Ancient China from around that era that mention neither a flood lasting over a month, nor a record of their previous records being mysteriously washed away.
      4) There is evidence of separate languages before OT times. Thus the story of the Tower of Babel cannot be true.

      Now, once you've shown that a book was intended to be factual as was possible, it's reasonable to (tentatively) assume that all that is contained in the book was factual. By this, I mean that if a book lists the kings of England accurately, to our knowledge, but lists pi = 3.2, then it's still factual, to the best of its abilities at the time.

      Of course, that's assuming that they work needs to be taken as fact. Personal journals, fictional stories, and intellectual works, for example, don't need to have their historicity verified, at least not to the same extent.

    246. Re:To be fair by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      "only"? That's a massive chunk of the populace! and by far the largest of any religion.

      So? It still means that twice as many people think Christianity is wrong as believe in it.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    247. Re:To be fair by tehcyder · · Score: 2

      Personally, I do not understand how someone who is an atheist lives believing that nothing has any meaning and will inevitably end in the heat death of the universe.

      Atheists believe plenty of things have meaning, just not baseless fairy tales which should stop being used as crutches once you get past about ten.

      My seven year old believes in Father Christmas, my twelve year old doesn't.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    248. Re:To be fair by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Yes, there is something puzzling about that to me, when I thought about the universe the way you do, I could think of no reason to work as hard as living requires.

      There is no reason to work hard beyond a certain point, and certainly not because you think you're going to get your fairy tale reward in heaven when you die.

      If life is purely a tedious slog, you might just as well kill yourself.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    249. Re:To be fair by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      And when you die, you believe that it will all cease. In the long run, what difference does it make?

      Not quite accurate, there. Nobody's claiming that the universe and all that's in it ceases to exist when I die, just that I cease to be a part of it.

      The difference can be summed up as a version of 'pay it forward'. My 'immortality' will come from the positive (and unfortunately, sometimes negative) changes I bring to others, some of whom will outlive me and perhaps pass those changes onward to others, etc. I may not be there to see it, but I really don't have to in order to be happy with the results now. I simply strive to keep my net balance positive because that makes me a better person in my own eyes.

      How is that difficult to comprehend?

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    250. Re:To be fair by joocemann · · Score: 1

      Lol. Facts don't require faith. Youre just another christian wordsmith trying to sound smart but deliberately failing to use clear language for the purpose of ideological defense. Please use a dictionary.

    251. Re:To be fair by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Objective morality does not require god or gods, though. It only requires accepting a certain point as a basis. An atheist can accept some external notion as such (as e.g. secular humanists do), or accept his own perception as absolute.

      And since different people can and do pick different points, leading to different systems of morality, such morality is subjective, not objective.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    252. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I do not know any atheists who have any lasting meaning in their lives.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    253. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but I cannot accept that anyone who believes that the universe is all there is is able to come up with any real meaning. By definition, if you believe that the universe is all there is, you believe that it has no meaning.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    254. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      If the universe is all there is, and it will end in heat death, how does it have any meaning?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    255. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      My 'immortality' will come from the positive (and unfortunately, sometimes negative) changes I bring to others,

      And when the universe ends in heat death, what will that mean?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    256. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Life that ends in death in a universe that will end in heat death is a tedious slog.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    257. Re:To be fair by ultranova · · Score: 1

      You put their claims to the test. Is the universe eternal? Nope... there goes most Eastern religions.

      Last I heard the Universe was just below critical density, making it unbound (eternal). Furthermore, there are all kinds of theories about how one could go about making new universes by manipulating vacuum energy levels, for example. Finally, even if the Universe is bound and eventually collapses, we don't know if this would actually destroy it because we don't have a theory of quantum gravity yet (for the same reason we can't really say that it hasn't existed always - we simply don't know what happens near or at a gravitational singularity).

      For that matter, do you actually know those Eastern religions (or any religion) well enough to know what they're claiming in any sufficient detail to test? Especially when such claims would have been described by people lacking training or context to understand what they're seeing to other people who also lacked it, and the subject is notoriously difficult even for modern people to comprehend.

      It's easy to take a theme park version of a religion (or any subject, really) and disprove it. Apart from making you feel smarter than the morons who believe such obvious bullshit, that accomplishes nothing, and especially doesn't disprove the original. Unless, of course, when you yourself don't know the science you're using ot "disprove" your strawman, and thus end up losing to it - then it's A-class parody :).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    258. Re:To be fair by dontclapthrowmoney · · Score: 1

      So you wouldn't want the freedom of choice if you were in that same situation?

      I'm not sure the toddler analogy works - it would be more like leaving a teenage boy in a room full of porn - someone rebellious but capable of understanding higher concepts - and something more tempting than sweets.

      Also note that the punishment was made clear in advance, not sprung on them later. And even when the punishment was put in place, they weren't just zapped out of existence, they were still given more ways of redeeming themselves.

    259. Re:To be fair by MrMickS · · Score: 1

      OK, consciousness, free choice, reason, logic, information. We'll start there.
      You just have to spend a bit of actual time looking.

      Been there, seen it, bought the t-shirt. I spent sometime doing bible studies*, interpretation of passages of scripture etc. In the end it brought me to the position that there was nothing really on offer except a code to live by. No magical revelation, no light on the way to Damascus, just a collection of stories who's meaning had to be interpreted to fit into the what we know of the world today.

      I talked to people that believed about their beliefs. More importantly about why they believe. The main reason is to give meaning to their lives. To give them an emotional crutch that there is more to their life than their time on planet Earth. This gave me the insight I was looking for.

      If you take the starting point that religion is about giving meaning to people to keep them happy in their lot it fits pretty well. Once someone believes in a religion it provides the answers to those awkward questions about life. It provides certainty in an uncertain world.

      I'm happy not to believe. I don't need the support of a mystical being to give purpose to my life. I'm happy not having an underlying truth. The humanist approach of treating others how I expect them to treat me is fine. I don't need an immortal soul, I have one in my children, and their offspring. To my mind not having this belief in a God makes me more grounded in this world. It behooves me to try to make the best of it because there's no God to come along and tidy it up afterwards.

      I understand that other people don't have that confidence and need to believe in something. I don't judge them for that, and won't try to convert them to my world view. I just wish that they wouldn't try and foist their's on me claiming that its the only way to find truth.

      * I admit it initially this was all because of a girl but don't let that give a false impression on how serious I took it.

      --
      You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
    260. Re:To be fair by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      Who said anything about oxidation? Ammonia: it's the new black. (Well, old black.)

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    261. Re:To be fair by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      My 'immortality' will come from the positive (and unfortunately, sometimes negative) changes I bring to others,

      And when the universe ends in heat death, what will that mean?

      Don't know. Won't be around to see it ;)

      It means everything to me right here, right now. That's all it has to mean, for me.

      You seem hung up on some final, everlasting effect that absolutely must be attained (?) whereas I am happy to satisfy the conditions that provide immediate meaning to my life while I am here to live it, and let the universe take care of things after I am not.

      It seems to me a measure of hubris to demand that the universe has to take note of your existence forever and ever, just to give you a reason to keep existing...

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    262. Re:To be fair by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      I agree with everything in your post.

    263. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe because atheists find meaning in their own. lives and live fully knowing this is all there is and it's best to make use of what we're given.

      What meaning is that? and who gave it to you?

      Love. My parents.

    264. Re:To be fair by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Explain consciousness from the atheistic worldview... or how reason, logic, and information come from matter. (and those are just a start)

      I'm not sure about how to answer that, but "God did it" strikes me as an useless answer.

      To put it more simply, atheism as a worldview does't match reality as well as Christianity (by quite a bit).

      Ha. You just admitted in another post that the bible needs an "interpretive key". When taken literally it disagrees badly with the available evidence, so for anything that doesn't fit you have to come up with an explanation of why if you squint at this part just so, you can sort of reconcile a discrepancy. And you need to do this many, many times to arrive at an interpretation that doesn't seem completely crazy in the modern world.

      Also, if christianity was such a great fit, there wouldn't be so many different interpretations of it.

      To me this looks like you're spending a great amount of effort on hammering a square peg into a round hole, and then pretending that the hole was square in the first place.

    265. Re:To be fair by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but I cannot accept that anyone who believes that the universe is all there is is able to come up with any real meaning. By definition, if you believe that the universe is all there is, you believe that it has no meaning.

      Ahhh, I get it now. You believe that 'real' (or indeed, any) meaning comes from outside of yourself. Sorry, wrong.

      Even language, symbols, things that are tangible and have been ascribed a collective 'meaning' by consensus are only meaningful if we internally ascribe meaning to them. We as a group of individuals say that 'this' means 'that', and if enough people accept that meaning, we can use it to communicate further. What does Shakespeare's Sonnet #6 mean to you? Do you think it means the same to me? Why not, if all 'real' meaning must come from outside oneself?

      Consider aphasia, where people believe they are communicating certain words, but biological short-circuits alter the intended output. How do they manage to communicate at all, if they can't use this externally-imposed language structure? Because they learn to re-associate meanings within themselves until they find ones that allow them to communicate with others, or develop some alternate way to express themselves if they desire to strongly enough. They are coherent in their own mind. If they choose not to seek communication with others, they can still live and thrive within themselves, albeit it could get a bit lonely.

      Trust yourself. You are, after all, the only one who knows for certain what means what to you. Thou art certainly god.

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    266. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I am not "demanding" that the universe has to take note of my existence. I am sorry that your life is so empty that you are satisfied with "meaning" that will not outlive you by more than a few years.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    267. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I am sorry that your life is so empty that such a view of things is satisfying to you.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    268. Re:To be fair by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      If you think the Big Bang was caused by supernatural phenomena, you clearly don't understand modern cosmology. Christ resurrection is even easier to explain: it's a myth. Not even the writers of the four gospels could agree on a resurrection story that didn't contradict one another.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    269. Re:To be fair by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      Ummm...cuz according to scripture, he started this mess.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    270. Re:To be fair by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      Explain consciousness from the atheistic worldview... or how reason, logic, and information come from matter. (and those are just a start)

      I suggest you put down the bible and pick up a modern neuroscience journal. You'll find your answers there.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    271. Re:To be fair by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      By that measure, more than half of Old Testament would be thrown out.

      DING! We have a winner!

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    272. Re:To be fair by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      You're clearly not talking to the right atheists, then.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    273. Re:To be fair by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      I don't think our "social morality" has significantly changed.

      Really? It was only 150 years ago that we decided that it's "immoral" to own another person as a slave. 100 years ago we figured out it was "immoral" to suppress voting rights for women. And it was a mere 60 years ago that we decided that attempting to exterminate and entire race was "immoral". Only 40 years ago, we ruled institutionalized racial discrimination to be "immoral".

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    274. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      So, how does an atheist, who does not believe that anything lasts (current scientific theory says that the universe will end in heat death), find lasting meaning?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    275. Re:To be fair by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      Clearly, "life" has plenty of meaning while I'm alive. After I'm gone, I'm naturally concerned that my family and friends will be well taken care of, so their lives continue to be pleasant. And hopefully, my daughter will have lots of kids and tell them all some stories of their grandfather so the story of my life and values will live on for a bit beyond me.

      As far as "heat death" goes; so what? I don't need something to last forever to find value in it. If anything, its temporary nature makes it more valuable and precious to me.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    276. Re:To be fair by retchdog · · Score: 1

      not if they're god's lulz. see the doctrines of calvinism, specifically "total depravity" and "limited atonement," as well as the westboro baptist church.

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    277. Re:To be fair by hazah · · Score: 1

      OK, here, I will have to contend, though I do share your overall world view. It's not plausible to suggest that cause and effect are the foundation. Our current research strongly suggest that at the quantum level such a system breaks down. As far as we know, spontaneity/randomness is a very real thing, (the mathematics point to an effect without a cause) and this is currently the suggested interpretation of the big bang. This leads to the school of thought of "it exists because it can exist". I will say there is still an overwhelmingly large gap in our understanding. I will, however, point out that we did not get to this realization by accident, rather, by observation.

    278. Re:To be fair by hazah · · Score: 1

      cheers

    279. Re:To be fair by hazah · · Score: 1

      Assuming one even exists.

    280. Re:To be fair by hazah · · Score: 1

      Those are things that lack actual objective definition. Most of these words are only ever understood intuitively and subjectively. Therefore these are not candidates to support nor refute an objective position on the matter.

    281. Re:To be fair by TehNoobTrumpet · · Score: 1

      I don't believe that at all. I just don't need an imaginary friend to provide meaning and value to my life.

    282. Re:To be fair by Alsee · · Score: 2

      even if we were to accept every last claim of the evolutionary theory, it would impact perhaps the first 3 chapters of a 40 chapter book. Im not seeing what it does for the history regarding Moses, and the egyptian captivity, for example.

      You're right. I was careless. My intention was "The entire Genesis Account", meaning the creation story. I was sloppy saying it in a way that apparently referred to "The entire Book of Genesis".

      Im not seeing what it does for the history regarding Moses, and the egyptian captivity, for example

      Evolution and the Genisis account was merely an example. My point was that most Christians know, and if pressed will awkwardly admit, that stuff all across the Bible is fictional. You want to know what it does for the history regarding Moses? Sure. Moses goes to Pharaoh, Pharaoh summons his sorcerers, and the sorcerers' cast enchantments turning their rods into snakes. That's not a miracle preformed by God - that is humans preforming magic turning sticks into snakes. And not only human magic, but humans preforming magic in direct defiance against God. Do you believe humans can actually be sorcerers and do real magic turning sticks into snakes? Do you believe that story is true? And even if you do believe it, do you deny that most Christians would say that was 'probably' or 'certainly' untrue?

      Like many works of fiction, it was based on reality. There was a Pharaoh and there were slaves, but the specific dialog and the specific events and the magic is fictional.

      then they are manifestly not christian-- not by current definitions, not by historical ones.

      Shias can claim Sunis are manifestly not Muslim, Sunis can claim Shias are manifestly not Muslim.

      There's only two valid ways to respond to such claims. Either they are both Muslims, or it's the mainstream majority who get to define what it means to be a Muslim and it's the minority sect who gets excluded as non-Muslim.

      Protestants can claim Mormons are not Christian, and Mormons can claim Protestants are not Christian. But again, either they are both Christian or it's the mainstream majority who get to define who is a Christian and who is a non-Christian sect with non-conforming beliefs.

      In this case the majority of Christians, the mainstream majority Christians, accept evolution as true and that the Genesis Account is not a true/accurate story. If you believe differently then it is you who is the minority sect with divergent beliefs. Either you and they are both Christians, or it is you who isn't a Christian. If you disagree with mainstream majority Christians, and you don't want to share a name with them, then it's you who needs to come up with a different name for your minority religious sect.

      If some Westboro Baptist nutjob tried to tell me you're not a Cristian I'd laugh and reject his assertion out of hand. And if you try to tell me the mainstream majority Christians are not Christian I'll laugh and reject your assertion out of hand. A minority sect cannot "expel" the mainstream majority of a religion for not conforming to their minority belief.

      I do like that apparently, on slashdot, if you spout factually incorrect (and trivially provable, too) anti-religion rhetoric, you can get modded to +5 for it.

      You're right I was careless with the "entirety of Genesis" comment, however that did not undermine the point I was making. It is normal and proper for a post on any subject, with an insignificant mistake, to get modded up when when the main point still stands as interesting or insightful.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    283. Re:To be fair by hazah · · Score: 1

      Then the premise of the story is that it's to be ignored, and that's very non-Christian. The flood sets out a cause and effect, a relationship of debt much like the Exodus from Egypt. If you ignore the flood as global, then you must ignore your indebtedness to God for allowing your familial roots to survive it. I really hope that it isn't that difficult to see the shortsightedness of this particular world view.

    284. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The bible never says the earth is 7000 yrs. old.

    285. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pursuing your own happiness is not meaning.

      Oh, so we are immitating five-year-olds, ok. I'll have a go - I think that the meaning of the meaning of your face is not meaning!!!! Hahahahaha. Now go and tell your mom what I just said (if she's dead, then she can be reached by calling either 1-800-HEAVEN! or 1-800-HELL!!! or if her application is still being processed: 1-800-PENDING).

      And I thought that /.ers were the kind of people who are unwilling to accept anything that is not scientific and that cannot be independently verified/reproduced by following specific instructions.

      I see here several seemingly regular /.ers who make religious claims/assumptions and are unable to admit that there "might be" even a tiny possibility that their convictions are completely false. At least allow your beliefs to be open to modification based on some kind of system. Like scientific theories for example, where contradictory evidence causes a theory to be either discarded or modified. E.g. if we discover that "Satan" can possess people, then we will have to make "exorcism" a new branch of medicine. lol (sorry, made myself laugh). /. is "news for nerds, stuff that matters". Well, maybe it should define exactly what it means by that, because it seems to be attracting people with the wrong idea of that which matters. Maybe I am the one who has the wrong idea and should stop visiting /.. How about putting a preemptive message stating "people professing faith are not welcome, because stuff that matters is that which is backed by hard evidence". Just like an atheist/agnostic would not be accepted in faith-based circles, evidence-based circles should likewise not accept His followers.

    286. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is the Earth 7000 years old? Nope... there goes Christianity.

      The bible never says the earth is 7000 years old. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.", how long that took is never addressed. God created the earth in seven days, when these seven days take place nobody knows. After Adam and Eve were created how long before the fall of man and sin entered the world? Nobody knows but God.

      Before you dismiss something at least be familiar with it.

    287. Re:To be fair by Xyanthiae · · Score: 1

      Thue, I have to agree with you there...at least for younger kids at least. Speaking of Aural Sex...you know what they say, once you go black you go deaf.

    288. Re:To be fair by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Only 40 years ago, we ruled institutionalized racial discrimination to be "immoral".

      Not so much "immoral" as "unacceptable". Not profitable. Not worth the trouble.

      On the other hand, we still have Republicans...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    289. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Crimes are against the state. God is above the state. He is not obligated to consider what humans think is right or wrong. Besides, most humans are hypocrites who want to exempt themselves from their own rules.

    290. Re:To be fair by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Personal journals, fictional stories, and intellectual works, for example, don't need to have their historicity verified

      Of course not.

      But when people begin to treat those journals and stories as articles of fact instead of articles of faith, and seek to influence society based upon them being articles of fact, then it seems reasonable to point out the distinction.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    291. Re:To be fair by Alsee · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I honestly don't understand. Can you help me, pointing out where my assumptions are incorrect or where you think I'm being unreasonable? To explain my confusion I need start with a silly illustration... please bear with me through it, and just point out where my assumptions are wrong in the first part or where I'm being unreasonable in the second part.

      Lets say I hand you a book about civil war era America. The book includes many real people, real places, real battles, and other real events. Turning to one arbitrary chapter of the book, we have a scene where Harriet Tubbman goes to Abraham Lincoln demanding that the slaves be freed. Lincoln calls several sorcerers into the room. The sorcerers toss several sticks on the ground and magically turn them into snakes.

      I assume we can agree that sorcerers aren't real, and that people can't actually cast magical enchantments to turn turn sticks into snakes. Harriet Tubbman and Abraham Linclon were real people, but I assume we can agree that the book's dialog between them is fictional. I assume we can agree that the book is a work of fiction, regardless of the accurate description of civil war battles included in the story. I assume we can agree that it is reasonable to make a sweeping dismissal of all of the magical scenes in the book as being fictional, regardless of any true civil war events included in the story.

      And then you hand me a book. I turn to a random chapter and I find a story about a guy named Moses going to a guy named Pharaoh, demanding the slaves bee freed. And the book then says Pharaoh calls upon his sorcerers, and they toss their rods onto the ground and enchant them into snakes.

      Note that that is not some miracle being preformed by God. According the the book you handed me, the sorcerers are magically enchanting the sticks into snakes. They are not doing a miracle with the aid of god, they are preforming magic in defiance against God.

      Ok. There were indeed real Pharaohs, and there were slaves in Egypt, and there probably was some real person names Moses.

      Now...
      Honest question: Do you believe Pharaoh had actual sorcerers? Do you believe they did real magic, in defiance against God, actually turning sticks into snakes?
      Is it unreasonable for me to say I think there is no such thing as sorcerers?
      Is it unreasonable for me to say I think that people can't do magic turning sticks into snakes?
      Is it unreasonable for me to say I think the book's dialog between Moses and Pharaoh is at least partially fictional?

      Is it unreasonable for me to say I think the book's description of sticks turning into snakes is fictional?

      Is it unreasonable for me to call the civil war book was a "work of fiction" the moment it included even one mention of sorcerers? Is it unreasonable for me to call the Bible book was a "work of fiction" the moment it included even one mention of sorcerers?

      Is it unreasonable for me to dismiss all of the magical scenes from the book as fictional components?

      In your last post, the closest thing I could find to addressing the issue was "And the misconception that the Bible is a single book that must adopt the same mode of communication throughout." Well, what if someone said the exact same thing in defense of the civil war book? The civil war book "adopts different modes of communication" in different parts, so somehow other magical parts of the civil war story should be taken as non-fiction?

      I honestly don't understand how anyone can look at a book with walking talking snakes (Genesis) and sorcerers turning sticks into snakes (Exodus), and take any of the magical scenes any more seriously than the Wizard of Oz. Sure The Wizard of Oz can teach many lessons about courage, morality, kindness, good&evil, and whatnot. But the moment flying monkeys and witches show up (or talking snakes and sorcerers) it is, in my opinion, pretty obvious that a book is overall a magic-filled fairytale.

      I honestly don't understand. Do you think Pharaoh had real sorcerers who did real magic? Or do you accept that particular magic-scene is fiction and somehow ignore/deny that as a an indication that other magic-scenes in the book are also fiction? Or... or... I honestly have no idea what.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    292. Re:To be fair by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      From that sense, all morality is subjective, since picking a particular god or gods as a metric of morality is also a conscious choice, and thus subjective. It's only objective from within the system where the choice of a deity is assumed as an axiom. But a system with no deity can just as well assume its own metric (e.g. "universal human rights") as an axiom, and then from their perspective their morality is objective.

    293. Re:To be fair by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      The Bible talks about eternal torment, do we really need to spell out "hell"?

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    294. Re:To be fair by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1
      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    295. Re:To be fair by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Well how the hell would *you* explain the concept of an atmosphere to X-thousand-BC sheep-herders and farmers?

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    296. Re:To be fair by dodobh · · Score: 1

      Neither logic, nor information come from matter.

      As for consciousness, that's something we don't have the answers to yet.

      Still don't need Christianity, or a god.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    297. Re:To be fair by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I can never understand how anyone can reconcile the Old Testament God who was a bastard with the New Testament God who apparently loves everyone and wants them to prosper (but still threatens eternal damnation if you annoy him). At least Mohammed tried to live as God did, impregnating a 9 year old girl, keeping slaves, waging war and genocide against his enemies and generally being a prick. If some bloke came along claiming to be the son of God and tried to convince you that everything you knew about him was wrong and actually he was the exact opposite of what his actions up to that point would suggest you would be forgiven for showing some scepticism.

      The only way you can begin to resolve this apparent schizophrenia is to believe that one description of God isn't true. Doubting is the first step to enlightenment.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    298. Re:To be fair by decoy256 · · Score: 1

      Well, the question is: Once you have accepted that a god exists, what attributes must He/She possess?

      My own reasoning has lead me to believe that God must have certain attributes or else be wholly unworthy of love, respect, and worship. I rejected the non-monotheistic religions as being far too fuzzy to me. It made no sense that there would be multiple supreme beings or that a single supreme being would tolerate other uber-powerful beings to bicker with each other, etc... From a philosophical standpoint, it all seems too silly. So, if I were to accept the existence of a god, it had to be one god.

      So, what attributes does he/she have? Take, for instance, the old philosophical dilemma "The Problem of Evil"... how can God be all powerful, all good, and still have evil exist? My answer is that God is not all powerful... since I know that Evil exists (being a student of history and having seen it myself in my own life) and because a god that is not all good is not worthy of worship, so I reject that notion. An all-powerful God that allows evil to exist is just sadistic.

      Of course, popular Christianity tries to maintain contradictory notions of God and explain these contradictions away by saying the "God is mysterious". So, I reject popular Christianity. But popular Christianity is based on the Nicene Creed, the absolute worst collection of self-contradiction and meaningless confusion ever devised by man. So I reject the Nicene Creed.

      But if God is not all-powerful, then why worship him? Well... I'll get to that...

      In rejecting the Nicene Creed, I also reject the notion that God created us... I mean I accept that he created certain aspects of us (spirits, bodies, etc...), but the part of me that I consider most inherently "me" God did not create. If he did, then he would be responsible for everything I did, not me. If I choose to follow him, he designed me to do so. If I don't, likewise... so if that were true, why would one person be punished and another rewarded, each for doing nothing more than what they were designed to do?

      After looking at these attributes of God, I consider what is God's purpose then? Again, I reject the Nicene notions that He created us "for his own good will and pleasure" (that seems highly ego-centric to me).

      So, I am left with only one set of answers:

      1. The universe self-exists (i.e. God did not create the universe) and there are rules that govern the universe to which even God is subject. This clears up a lot of confusion and problems with the classical views of God. Yes, there was a big bang, yes the laws of physics rule, etc...
      2. We self exist. Otherwise God is cruel, capricious, and sadistic.
      3. God's purpose must be to assist mankind to attain our highest potential through self-awareness and personal growth. Indeed, I think God is trying to make us like him.

      It is that third point that I think makes God worthy of worship. His intentions are not to mete out rewards and punishments, but to lay out a road map that if we follow will help us to become gods ourselves.

      The reason I accept Christ as the means by which this is accomplished is because it is in his doctrine that you find each of these ideas espoused (if not overtly, by implication). My religious view centers on Christ because I believe that more than any other religious figure, he espoused the personal growth that I'm talking about and never tried to subjugate his followers underneath him. Indeed, he encouraged his followers to "be perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." That is pretty lofty stuff.

      Most religions do not make such a philosophically pleasing assertion. Except the one to which I belong.

    299. Re:To be fair by quenda · · Score: 1

      Well how the hell would *you* explain the concept of an atmosphere to X-thousand-BC sheep-herders and farmers?

      I'd tell them the earth is flat, and the sky is blue because it is a dome holding back the waters.
      I'd tell 'em there was light on the first day, but the sun and stars did not come until the third day. Just to mess with their heads and see how gullible they were.
      But I'm an evil old sod.

    300. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      If this universe is all there is, then everything you will accomplish in this life is meaningless and it cannot be of lasting value since it will all end in the heat death of the universe.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    301. Re:To be fair by EsbenMoseHansen · · Score: 1

      No. True is simply a value we assign to a fact. The only constraint is that it is logically consistent with the remaining true facts.

      Objectivity and fact are synonyms. Something that is objective has a truth value that is irrespective of anyone's perceptions or beliefs. A for absolute scale, it depends on what is being discussed-- if it is "existence", the scale is "exists" or "does not exist". Some things have scale with more shades inbetween.

      Obviously, because such "facts" as you call them, comes from our (presumably) shared experience of the world. We call them facts because we can measure them, or deduct them from something we can measure. Of course, "facts" might change, either because our world changes, because our measurements changes, or because our deduction techniques changes. E.g, some times ago a number of religious beliefs (say, Jesus's revival) were considered facts, but today we know it not to be so.

      But you are saying that evil is defined on a relative, subjective scale, and denying that there is any higher authority to which one could appeal for such an objective scale.

      Of course. Doing otherwise would be insane.

      The problem remains that you cannot call your own personal beliefs "true" while asserting that they are subjective. Either they are true, or they are not, and truth is NOT subjective.

      You got it backwards. We do not instinctively know something is evil because the act is evil; rather an act is evil because we instinctively find it evil.

      You can argue that that means that what is evil changes over time, and indeed, this is the case. E.g, the old testament has a lot of stories where one of the many gods therein ordered "his" people to do mass murder and genocides. Such an act might not have been considered evil then, but it certainly is now. I don't know why that bothers people.

      --
      Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
    302. Re:To be fair by TxRv · · Score: 1

      Until they ate of the Tree of Knowledge, Adam and Eve *weren't* capable of understanding higher concepts like say, "mortality". Yeah, they were told they'd die if they ate the fruit, but remember - they lived in a paradise where nothing ever dies. They had no self-consciousness, no concept of death. Without eating the forbidden fruit, they had no understanding of the consequences of eating the fruit.

      "Freedom of choice" is a theological cop-out. God is 2 things: omniscient and omnipresent. He's everywhere and - this is important - everywhen. He knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, but he still put the Tree right in the middle of the garden to tempt them.

      The Abrahamic God is every bit as malicious as the Greek and Mesopotamian gods his stories were plagiarised from.

    303. Re:To be fair by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      And then there is the collective punishment issue. God - in keeping with the values of the society that created the myths - considers family lines to be of vital importance. So much so that he doesn't just punish Adam and Eve, but declares that all of their children, and their children, and their children for the rest of time shall also be punished with suffering and death - even though they didn't even exist at the time of the crime.

      When it comes to being evil, God is unparalleled. Not in all of human history nor all of mythology can I find any other character so loathesome, so petty, so violent and so sadistic - and that includes the ones supposed to be evil, who usually have at least some justification for their actions. God is not good at all. God is perhaps the most vile character it is possible to imagine: One who doesn't merely revel in inflicting pain, but demands those he torture worship him for the generosity he shows in not torturing them even more, and who even has the audacity to claim to be the ultimate force for good.

      Should the end-times Christians turn out to be right, and the events of revelation happen, and the forces of God and the forces of the Antichrist clash upon that final battlefield... then I may be there, but I will not be on God's side.

    304. Re:To be fair by TehNoobTrumpet · · Score: 1

      Well then, might as have an amazing life, and try to do as much good while it matters to someone, right? Or would you rather just sulk and be depressed that you won't live forever?

    305. Re:To be fair by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      I agree, and also hope over 50% stuck in it think it's a bunch of bullshit as I do despite my upbringing.

    306. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My life will have value as long as it needs to, which is as long as I'm alive, what does it matter if it has no value when I'm dead, I won't be here to care.

      So, is that why you hold your religious beliefs? Because without them your life is meaningless? Well, if it makes you happy...

    307. Re:To be fair by obeythefist · · Score: 1

      Which, lacking any other qualification, directly asserts that the crime of worshipping any other god before the jewish god is as bad, or slightly worse (due to order of precedence) than committing murder.

      Rape on the other hand isn't even on the list, but on the other hand, copyright infringement isn't on the list either.

      Which is a shame because if the bible was copyrighted, the world would be a much better place.

      --
      I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
    308. Re:To be fair by williamhb · · Score: 1

      I honestly don't understand. Can you help me, pointing out where my assumptions are incorrect or where you think I'm being unreasonable? To explain my confusion I need start with a silly illustration... please bear with me through it, and just point out where my assumptions are wrong in the first part or where I'm being unreasonable in the second part.

      Your entire analogy is wrong in the first part, and consequently the second part was abject nonsense. The bible is a collection of forty books with ages that vary by a few thousand years. If your model of understanding it is limited to "treat it like a single book using modern English idioms written over a short space of time within the last century or so", you're stuffed before you've started. Actually I'd hazard a guess you are aware of this, and are simply karma-whoring. You surely must be aware, for instance, that the Psalms are very different in form, language, and style from Genesis, which is in turn very different in form, language and style from the epistles, which are very different in form language and style from (insert book here). So it seems to me your attempts to draw poor conclusions are probably malicious rather than ignorant.

    309. Re:To be fair by williamhb · · Score: 1

      The bible is a collection of forty books with ages that vary by a few thousand years

      Pardon me, poor editing of a sentence. Had said that the Old Testament is a collection of about 40 books. With the New Testament (when I changed the sentence to read "The bible is...", it's more than sixty.

    310. Re:To be fair by obeythefist · · Score: 1

      Best is subjective. If there is no transcendence to the human existence and no purpose behind all that is, then everything is, in the end, of no meaning, of no relative worth; it simply is what it is.

      This is a fallacy often used by the unenlightened religious, based on the axiom that the only morality in the world must have been given to humans by the divine. Unfortunately, before you can assert that morality only comes from God, you're going to need to provide direct and concrete evidence of his existence.

      Atheist morality is just as artificial as this whole God thing that many people have been brainwashed into believing without any reasonable evidence.

      At least when an atheist does something "nice", you know it's not because he's afraid he's going to hell. It's an actual genuine choice, unhindered by iron age myth.

      --
      I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
    311. Re:To be fair by obeythefist · · Score: 1

      Yes it is. It's just as meaningful and valuable as teaching people how to reason, so they may put aside dangerous myths and superstitions.

      --
      I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
    312. Re:To be fair by obeythefist · · Score: 1

      Most atheists have to actually decide what meaning they will put into their lives, and they craft the meaning for themselves.

      It's actually more difficult than being a Christian but also more rewarding.

      I disagree. I've found it quite easy. When presented with Christian values, I had a tendency to question them, and when given an unsatisfactory answer, to question further.

      The failure of any religious person as I was growing up to provide answers to straightforward and reasonable questions is what put me on the path to atheism, reason, and science.

      --
      I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
    313. Re:To be fair by obeythefist · · Score: 1

      No, I do not have a problem with the concept that "each individual chooses the morality he will follow." I understand that many people are unwilling to attempt to live up to truly moral standards and therefore choose to define the standards they are willing to live up to as "moral".

      That's precisely what the church does. Find a christian who cuts the hair at the sides of their head, and then explain to them that by their own moral standards, they are sinners and an affront to their own God.

      But it's convenient to cut the hair at the sides of the head, even though it's forbidden in Leviticus, so christianity morally adjusted to ignore their own doctrine.

      What you will find is that of all people, atheists are the ones who change their chosen moral codes least of all.

      --
      I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
    314. Re:To be fair by obeythefist · · Score: 1

      Pleased to meet you. I'm an atheist with lasting meaning in my life.

      I believe that the universe is all there is. That alone has significant meaning. I realise the true nature of life as a function of biological principles, and understand the numinous nature of nature itself. To anyone scientifically literate, this also provides a very rich and comforting framework of "meaning".

      The important difference, is that my meaning is based on reproducible and testable evidence.

      --
      I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
    315. Re:To be fair by obeythefist · · Score: 1

      My 'immortality' will come from the positive (and unfortunately, sometimes negative) changes I bring to others,

      And when the universe ends in heat death, what will that mean?

      Well that will mean that he met his objectives that he set for himself, and christians wasted their lives running madly after something written by deluded monks as a popular control mechanism just before the dark ages hit.

      --
      I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
    316. Re:To be fair by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Copyright law sets the term for a copyright on an individually-authored law a the life of the author plus 70 (US) or 50 (Parts of Europe) years. If the bible is accepted as true, then the original author would be God - who isn't dead yet. So it is still copyrighted. Doesn't matter though, as the bible also includes God granting permission for copying. The final chapter of Revelation contains a very strong no-modifications clause.

    317. Re:To be fair by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      You demonstrate a very common misunderstanding of Christianity and the basis for its moral code.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    318. Re:To be fair by hazah · · Score: 1

      Leaving "resurrection" out of it, the Big Bang is thought to be a quantum event. Currently observable quantum events do not require that there always be a cause (time is not always a factor -- see radio active decay). Should the universe have been infinitesimally small, as we currently think, then at some point in the past, time would not exist as it does now (we know that the rate in which one experiences or "sees" time depends on ones reference frame because of Einstein). When time looses its meaning, so does causality. Nothing here needs anything supernatural.

    319. Re:To be fair by hazah · · Score: 1

      "Atheism not only can't explain it, but it isn't possible for it to do so... that's the problem." How do you know?

      "Well, one could argue that you can't avoid religion BECAUSE of logic." We've seen the arguments that lead to religion being illogical. So far you've provided only assumptions. So please, argue away.

      Biblical inerrancy is, at best, an assumption. From the second paragraph on wikipedia: "Advocates of biblical inerrancy take the position that although none of the original manuscripts currently exist, scholars are able to produce a product that is as near as possible to the original and that it can confidently be said to be the authoritative Word of God." Is this really your argument?

      ID, yet another assumption based on another assumption based on another assumption based on... what?

      I'm game too.

    320. Re:To be fair by hazah · · Score: 1
      You really do not see the problem? Strange. We have discovers atoms, we use them, we manipulate them. We've yet to discover a supernatural being of any actual manifestation that can't be attributed to someone's overactive, dull, imagination.

      Atoms are real. If you can assume consciousness is real then I would think that you'd have no problem accepting that. This "image" you speak of pretty means something different to each of us. Hardly an objective stance to take.

    321. Re:To be fair by Alsee · · Score: 1

      So it seems to me your attempts to draw poor conclusions are probably malicious rather than ignorant.

      There was absolutely nothing malicious in my post.

      I asked a series of sincere questions of you, attempting to gain some information or understanding from you, and you answered exactly none of them.

      For example, I still honestly have absolutely no idea whether you do or do not believe Pharaoh had actual sorcerers who could (and did) magically turn sticks into snakes. I do not know if you take that section to be a reasonably accurate historical accounting of events, or whether you take it as figurative or allegorical or what.

      If you do take it as an account of actual events, I still do not know whether you consider it unreasonable for me to firmly disbelieve in sorcerers.

      If you do not take that as an account of a real event, I do not know how or why you distinguish it from all other "magical" events in the Bible (such as the resurrection of Jesus). And I still do not know if you consider it unreasonable for me to take that sorcerer scene as cause to affirmatively-doubt all magical scenes in the Bible.

      The closest you came to providing any sort of answer at all for me, was to merely assert the Bible was different from my example, and ignore answering anything. Your previous "explanation" consisted of saying "And the misconception that the Bible is a single book that must adopt the same mode of communication throughout." So I responded by saying my Civil War book ALSO adopts different modes of communication in different parts. The entire point of my example is that any and all unspecified aspects of the Civil War book will exactly parallel the Bible.

      So, your "answer" this time was to say "The bible is a collection of forty books with ages that vary by a few thousand years." Ok, fine. My Civil War Book is also a collection of forty books with ages that vary by a few thousand years. I merely pointed to one particular passage where Abraham Lincoln summoned his sorcerers, who then preformed magic turning sticks into snakes.

      I know you don't like my example. I realize you feel my example is some malicious mockery. But it really was my best attempt to illustrate what it is I find puzzling. I needed it to be able to ask what I wanted to ask.

      I would sincerely like to find out whether you believe Pharaoh's sorcerers turned sticks into snakes. The scene appears to be presented as a historical account, it strikes me as patently unbelievable, and it can't be explained away under the general heading of "God can do miracles". It's an example of humans doing magic in defiance of God. It's just plain human sorcerery.

      Personally I consider it reasonable and proper for someone to dismiss all magical scenes in the Civil War book based upon the Lincoln's-sorcerer scene. I would also expect you to label the Civil War book fiction and to dismiss all magic scenes in the book as fiction, based upon that Lincoln's-sorcerer's scene. However from there, I don't understand how or why you'd think me unreasonable for dismissing the Bible as fiction, and dismissing all magical scenes in the bible as fiction, with no need for any more justification than pointing to Pharaoh's sorcerers. It appears you do indeed think me unreasonable, and even offensive, for doing so. So I don't get it. Where am I guessing wrong on your position? Or what reasoning am I missing?

      I still do not see how the Bible (or the Civil War book) being written in many parts over many years solves anything. As I see it, the sorcerers alone is sufficient to flag both books as (at best) truth mixed with fiction. As I see it, the sorcerers alone is sufficient to flag all wildly implausible events in the both books as unreliable and presumptively non-credible.

      At the very least, can you tell me whether you think Pharaoh had sorcerers would could (and did) to actual magic turning sticks into snakes? And whether you think me unreasonable for

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    322. Re:To be fair by williamhb · · Score: 1

      I asked a series of sincere questions of you, attempting to gain some information or understanding from you, and you answered exactly none of them.

      For example, I still honestly have absolutely no idea whether you do or do not believe Pharaoh had actual sorcerers who could (and did) magically turn sticks into snakes.

      As you're not interested in understanding what I said to you, but just on dogmatically insisting on answers to what I consider irrelevant questions -- "Does a person you don't know believe something that's irrelevant to what they said" -- I'll leave the conversation there. I have not read the remainder of your post.

    323. Re:To be fair by frisket · · Score: 1

      Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.

      Something about being created in his own image? Srsly, the small-minded little piece of work who brought this up in the first place was objecting that the book was unsuitable for kids. So that means the Bible is unsuitable for kids? Way to go, fundies — not only assholes, but ignorant assholes.

    324. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      Sorry folks... I tried to interact with many of your points/posts... but I can't get to them all. Add to that, that while I was in the process of discussing this, Slashdot cut me off on my # of posts, so I think I need to give up on this thread.

      If anyone wants to seriously** continue the discussion with me, you're welcome to contact me through my site @ TilledSoil.org (there is a form on the about page).

      ** - by seriously, I mean you've actually put some thought into this, and hopefully have done a bit of research on it too. (I mean... someone actually tried the Horus/Jesus comparison thing! Sheesh. That's about the intellectual level of having your PhD dissertation filled with National Enquirer references.)

    325. Re:To be fair by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      No, I think the mess started in Genesis 3.... and it wasn't God.

    326. Re:To be fair by obeythefist · · Score: 1

      So, the basis for Christianity is not what is written in the bible, but something else entirely?

      Where does the doctrine and instruction come from then?

      Of course, the church?

      --
      I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
  3. Okay, ALMOST gave a damn by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 5, Insightful

    BUT then I read the article and found out that Brendan Smith SELF-CENSORED his book at the request of Sam's Club in order to make more money.

    So... I am supposed to care that a guy who willingly took a dick up his ass got more then he bargained for?

    Hell no. Smith approves of censor ship in name of the almighty dollar well, then he has to go all the way. If you want me to care about your lack of freedom you shouldn't have given it away first. This guy has no principles clearly, he only cares about selling less books.

    Let this be a warning, you can NOT negotiate with religious extremist. Give them a finger and they rip of your arm then beat you with it. Why do you think Larry Flint the smut peddler was defended by civil rights groups? Not for the sake of porn itself.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Okay, ALMOST gave a damn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering all the versions of the Bible between factions of Xtianity and so on censor parts out they don't like, what makes his version of the Bible different?

    2. Re:Okay, ALMOST gave a damn by mgiuca · · Score: 2

      And what in the world is wrong with self-censorship?

      If you tell me that I cannot say a particular thing, then I despise you, for you are limiting my basic human right to freedom of speech -- that is censorship.
      If I decide that it would be inappropriate for me to say a particular thing, then I am exercising my right to freedom of speech (which includes freedom to not say something) -- that is self-censorship.

      There is nothing wrong with self-censorship. If I think that I can make more money by not saying a particular thing, then I am absolutely within my rights to not say it. Censorship is only bad when someone else is forcing it upon you. Who are you to tell Smith what he should and should not have included in his own book?

    3. Re:Okay, ALMOST gave a damn by Nethead · · Score: 1

      Agree.

      Seems in this case he was modifying his product to meet his customer's (Sam's Club) specification. Isn't that how the market works? It wouldn't seem odd at all if we were talking about software or a cam shaft.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    4. Re:Okay, ALMOST gave a damn by dotar · · Score: 1

      If you want me to care about your lack of freedom you shouldn't have given it away first.

      Ooh, that's good. Did you tell that to Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Lybia, etc etc? What about America now? If someone realises they've gotten into trouble, shouldn't they have the ability to ask for help out of it? Not everyone is as all-knowing as you clearly are.

    5. Re:Okay, ALMOST gave a damn by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Can I ask what would be wrong with Sam's Club saying "We personally do not approve of this, and we think it would offend the majority of our customer base, so we will not sell this product"?

      I thought that was one of the benefits of being a business owner, that you could make decisions like that in line with your values and your bottom line.

    6. Re:Okay, ALMOST gave a damn by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      It is hypocritical of Sam's Club to do this, as uncensored, unabridged bibles are still sold there. And they contain the source material for the "nasty" Lego scenes.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
  4. Hello!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Direct quotes from the Old Testament .... Illustrated by Lego characters ... People thought it was a childrens book.

    It's the Old Testament! THAT, isn't a childrens story!

    Sam's Club is bending to the will of a few ignorant souls. Poor form, Sam's Club. Poor form.

    1. Re:Hello!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The New Testament isn't exactly a child friendly story either.

    2. Re:Hello!!! by LeperPuppet · · Score: 2

      Why not get the Christo-fascists involved and let them know that Sam's Club is refusing to sell the bible? Should be entertaining.

    3. Re:Hello!!! by Mostly+a+lurker · · Score: 2

      It's the Old Testament! THAT, isn't a childrens story!

      It also is of dubious artistic merit, contains explicit sex scenes and glorifies violence. If one is going to justify censorship at all, I can see no reason why the sale and possession of this filth should not be banned.

    4. Re:Hello!!! by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      It also is of dubious artistic merit, contains explicit sex scenes and glorifies violence.

      If you will claim that it glorifies violence, would you also say that the Diary of Anne Frank glorifies violence? Because both are the same style of literature-- that is, historical writings, and both contain violence.

    5. Re:Hello!!! by Mostly+a+lurker · · Score: 1

      If you will claim that it glorifies violence, would you also say that the Diary of Anne Frank glorifies violence? Because both are the same style of literature-- that is, historical writings, and both contain violence.

      I guess I was not very observant, but I failed to read any approval of the violence in the Diary of Anne Frank. When "the lord" burns people who murmur against him, tells his people to kill all the non virgins of a town they have captured, but keep and rape all the virgins, mandates death for homosexuals, and a thousand other acts of violence in the OT, it is in the context that everything God does is beyond approach.

    6. Re:Hello!!! by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Anne Frank: "Heads have been bashed in." Bible: "Bash heads in". See the difference?

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    7. Re:Hello!!! by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      No, it is in the context of a judge enforcing penal justice upon the guilty.

      Rape is never condoned in the bible, full stop. It carries hefty penalties, and I would hazard that the only reason it does not carry the death penalty is because then there would be left no provision for the woman at all.

    8. Re:Hello!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you talking about the Lego Bible or the original OT?

    9. Re:Hello!!! by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      We must have read different bibles, then. Recall that Lot, the one and only righteous man in all of Sodom offered up his underage daughters to be gang-raped by an angry mob. And yes, Rape does come with the Death Penalty - for the female victim if she doesn't "cry out".

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    10. Re:Hello!!! by Mostly+a+lurker · · Score: 1
      Perhaps, you would care to reread Judges 21. Here are some selected highlights:

      10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children.
      11 “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.”
      12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.
      ...
      20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards
      21 and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife.
      ...
      23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.

      This is according to the most recent translations. Trust me, the older translations are worse.

    11. Re:Hello!!! by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Thats not rape, its abduction, and regardless that is not "condoning", it is recording a historical event.

      Or are you saying that the history books condone the jewish holocaust because it is recorded?

    12. Re:Hello!!! by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      the one and only righteous man in all of Sodom offered up his underage daughters to be gang-raped by an angry mob

      David (also called righteous) was an adulturer, murderer, and abused his position of king to carry out those two crimes. Being called "righteous" in the bible is not meant as an absolute term when applied to man.
      His actions were not condoned, and they were wrong.

      for the female victim if she doesn't "cry out".

      The implication is that she was a willing participant. Incidentally, the word rape is neither used nor implied there. It simply speaks of a "nightime encounter" in which the woman has intercourse with the man and does not raise any alarm.

  5. What is this doing on Slashdot? by couchslug · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Modern man holds religion in contempt and doesn't care about silly shit like internal superstitionist squabbles.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    1. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by SteveW928 · · Score: 0

      Modern man holds religion in contempt? Seriously? You need to get out more.

    2. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Surt · · Score: 2, Funny

      What's wrong with his claim? Just because 70+% of the population isn't modern doesn't mean the rest of us aren't holding them in contempt.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    3. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Tsingi · · Score: 1

      Modern man holds religion in contempt? Seriously? You need to get out more.

      If you actually believe in the magic man in the sky that sees all, knows all, and needs money, you need to start using your head.

    4. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by drb226 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      What is this doing on Slashdot? Let's see...

      • indirect religion bashing, check
      • omg censorship, check
      • hating on megacorps, check
      • hyped up and misleading summary, check
      • no actual content to this story, check

      Has all the hallmarks of a Slashdot story.

    5. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      What would be modern about holding religion in contempt?

    6. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      Nope, don't believe anything like that.

    7. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Surt · · Score: 1

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/modern

      I'd say it's a relatively recent phenomenon for people to hold all religions, rather than a specific subset in contempt.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    8. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by SteveW928 · · Score: 2

      Your awesome commen.... priceless! :)

      Actually, Slashdot has lots of great stuff... which is why I read it. It just seems to collect a super high concentration of overly ignorant atheists.

    9. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Inane and/or self-important comments, check

    10. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by PPH · · Score: 1

      Yes. But "modern man" is a minority in this country. Eventually you are going to have to step out of your house and deal with the masses.

      On the other hand, "modern man" doesn't do much shopping at Sam's Club or WalMart.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    11. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Let me guess. A liberal, tolerant of the beliefs of others? Oh wait.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    12. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Tsingi · · Score: 1

      Let me guess. A liberal, tolerant of the beliefs of others? Oh wait.

      I'm very tolerant of other peoples beliefs as long as those beliefs do not adversely affect me.

    13. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      I guess my question was more in regard to why. Is there something in the modern era that would make religion any less credible? The only actual trend I see which might do so is post-modernism, which is self-contradictory (so, should be ignored).

    14. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Surt · · Score: 1

      I'd say it's the advancement of science in explaining our world. 5000 years ago, you needed a diety to explain fire. 2000 years ago you needed a diety to explain someone surviving a near-death experience. Today everything around us is familiar science.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    15. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Antireligious movements started in revolutionary France. Not my idea of modern.

      Atheism is older than Christianity; some Hindu sects about 6th century BCE were atheistic. There were several other such movements in India.

    16. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Larryish · · Score: 1

      When you say things like that... it makes baby Jesus cry :(

    17. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Atheism is older than any sentient being - you don't need to be able to believe at all in order to not believe in anything.

    18. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      But, what does that have to do with being anti-religious? That we can better explain our world will only confirm or refute some segment of religious claims. If a religion is true, the advancement of science will strengthen it (as, I'd argue, is the case with Christianity).

    19. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Not really. Compare Epicurus' writings on religion. He basically wrote the boilerplate text around 300 BCE.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    20. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Surt · · Score: 1

      I'm definitely aware that there have been those who criticize all religions in the past. I was thinking more in terms of it becoming a broad social movement. I don't think it has ever reached more than a miniscule fraction (maybe 1-2%) before.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    21. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Surt · · Score: 1

      The problem is that science, generally, suggests that most of the claims of most religions are untrue, and has been a better guide to people's lives. Your claim that the advancement of science has strengthened Christianity is an interesting one, I would certainly have claimed the opposite to be true, but it probably depends upon the metric. Christianity these days seems mostly reserved to the poorly educated. The more science creeps in, the less room there seems in the brain for religion.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    22. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Ok. I agree. Just wanted to point to Epicurus as one of the first to lay down the structure of 'modern' atheism. He surely didn't become seriously popular by it, though.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    23. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      How so?

    24. Re:What is this doing on Slashdot? by Larryish · · Score: 1

      I was being humorous at the expense of all the churchy people, by mimicking one of the lies they tell their children.

  6. Not censorship... by SteveW928 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Umm, no matter what happened (I'm not familiar with the book), a store deciding they don't want to sell a product isn't censorship.

    1. Re:Not censorship... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, no matter what happened (I'm not familiar with the book), a store deciding they don't want to sell a product isn't censorship.

      Well, no, not necessarily, but a store ordering a huge supply, then canceling that order in direct response to one person complaining that it was written by an atheist, is.

    2. Re:Not censorship... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it is. It's just not Government censorship (and so has nothing to do with the First Amendment, or "freedom of speech"). But it fits the definition of censorship nevertheless.

    3. Re:Not censorship... by SteveW928 · · Score: 2

      It may or may not be a good business decision, but isn't censorship.

    4. Re:Not censorship... by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      They aren't suppressing anything.... just not selling it.

    5. Re:Not censorship... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So any product WalMart/Sam's Club doesn't sell is now the victim of censorship? No wonder Slashdotters have such a warped vision of the world.

    6. Re:Not censorship... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that's not the argument at all. The argument is that Sam's Club reviewed the material and refused to carry it on the basis of the content. That is, by definition, censorship. They could have refused to carry it for other reasons, perhaps such as "we have enough books already" and it wouldn't be censorship in those particular cases.

    7. Re:Not censorship... by migla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So any product WalMart/Sam's Club doesn't sell is now the victim of censorship? No wonder Slashdotters have such a warped vision of the world.

      So, logically, if/when WalMart/Sam's Club and maybe a handful other megacorporations own all production and distribution of everything, there will be no censorship, since it isn't called that when you use the power of money and connections instead of the power of law and police?

      Yay, future!

      --
      Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
    8. Re:Not censorship... by SwedishChef · · Score: 1

      So... what if it was a country refusing entry to the book? Would that be censorship, then?

      --
      No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
    9. Re:Not censorship... by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 2

      Correct. That is not censorship.

      Once they send in the uniformed goons to stop you from setting up a printing press in your backyard and distributing it yourself...that's where it crosses the line.

      Freedom of speech does not bring any obligation for others to provide you with a platform for that speech, nor does it force others to pay attention to said speech.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    10. Re:Not censorship... by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      I start to think it might be when these companies hold an extreme amount of sway over way is produced and what isn't.

      There's a point where "it's a private business" doesn't hold water. Most major retailers are already there in the US. Time we start considering these on the same level as government - it's still censorship, and censorship just as bad as were the government to do it themselves. Those who value freedom do not allow such worthless excuses of ownership to trample on rights.

    11. Re:Not censorship... by bky1701 · · Score: 0

      Sorry to break it to you, but that IS censorship, no matter if you agree with it or not. Please stop trying to revise the English language to support your political positions.

    12. Re:Not censorship... by Caraig · · Score: 1

      Just as it is not right to force someone to not publish something, it is also not right to force someone TO publish that thing. Throwing words together does not result in an inalienable right to have it published. You can't force Sam's Club to carry a book they don't like any more than you can force Apple to sell Packard-Bell computers in their retail stores.

      Fortunately, for everything else, there's the internet. Last I checked, nobody said Time Cube or Phantom History couldn't be put out there for everyone to see. For better or worse. =P

      --
      "I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
    13. Re:Not censorship... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Um, no it's not and your inability to make a logical counterargument to the above statement instead of just knee-jerk tactics is proof of it.

    14. Re:Not censorship... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      If the store decided to not carry this book due to its contents, then yes, it is censorship (just not government censorship in this case). At least, as far as the English language definition of censorship is concerned. According to Merriam-Webster:

      censorship - 1a. the institution, system, or practice of censoring

      censoring - to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable (censor the news); also : to suppress or delete as objectionable (censor out indecent passages)

      Mainly, it's the intent of Sam's Club in this case. If they decided not to carry this book because they didn't think it'd be profitable, then that's one thing. And, if they felt that the contents of the book would keep it from being profitable, then it still would not be censorship. However, if they chose not to carry the book because they did not want to help distribute what they deemed to be "objectionable content", that's censorship.

    15. Re:Not censorship... by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Complete poppycock. There are so many ways to get and read a book these days that major retailers are not close to controlling the distribution channels.

      The real concern is jerks trying to get books pulled off the shelves at local libraries.

    16. Re:Not censorship... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes it is. It's not censorship by a government, but it is censorship. Look up the word.
      That doesn't make it illegal.
        It also doesn't make it illegal for me to not go to their store because I don't like what they are doing.

    17. Re:Not censorship... by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      It would only be censorship, then, within Sam's Club. Should I complain about censorship because McDonald's refuses to sell me a flame-broiled burger? A little common sense here folks, please?

    18. Re:Not censorship... by sonamchauhan · · Score: 0

      "if/when WalMart/Sam's Club and maybe a handful other megacorporations own all production and distribution of everything..."

      Moderators, please note - if you moderate the parent comment downward, you stand accused you of 'Slashdot censorship'!

      (Feel free to moderate my comment down.)

    19. Re:Not censorship... by migla · · Score: 1

      Correct. That is not censorship.

      Technically, it might not be, but nonetheless, having the information of their choosing reach people and the information they want to suppress not reaching people, would be the end result in aggregate anyway.

      Once they send in the uniformed goons to stop you from setting up a printing press in your backyard and distributing it yourself...that's where it crosses the line.

      And let's say they wouldn't do that, since that would be bad PR. Instead they'd suffer the consequences of having my leaflets reach a few thousand consumers every now and then, while they'd reach practically everyone everywhere all the time.

      Freedom of speech does not bring any obligation for others to provide you with a platform for that speech, nor does it force others to pay attention to said speech.

      Quite. However pro freedom I might be, I would not be happy to invite any crazies into my living room to scream angry fascist propaganda at me, for example.

      But if I owned the whole world or significant parts of it, and if most bookshelves and every soapbox was in my living rooms, we'd clearly have a problem.

      So, whether it is censorship or not, when some entity in practice controls what movies are on shelves and if filmmakers are self-censoring in hopes of getting onto those shelves, there is a problem.

      --
      Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
    20. Re:Not censorship... by Travelsonic · · Score: 1

      Actually, it still is - just censorship they chose to invoke on their own.

      --
      If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
    21. Re:Not censorship... by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

      "if/when WalMart/Sam's Club and maybe a handful other megacorporations own all production and distribution of everything..."

      Waah! Someone "censored" my comment above on Slashdot! I didn't have the right 'connections' with them moderators. (because they didn't agree with me.) I've lost my voice in the geek community. Waaaaah!

  7. Hypocritical by Thesis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is rape, incest, homosexuality, torture, as well as murder in the King James Bible. Perhaps they should ban it as well.

    1. Re:Hypocritical by jesseck · · Score: 4, Funny

      There is rape, incest, homosexuality, torture, as well as murder in the King James Bible. Perhaps they should ban it as well.

      but the gays were slaughtered by fire and brimstone, the raped mothers didn't get an abortion, of course adam and eves kids had sex with each other (how else would mankind go on?), and the terrorists had to be interrogated. How is this bad?

    2. Re:Hypocritical by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      And those are the tame parts!

    3. Re:Hypocritical by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      FYI the folks in sodom and gomorrah werent killed because they were gay, they were killed because of their attempt to sodomize visitors to a town by violence.

      Totally innocent, right?

      And FYI the Bible explicitly endorses sex, theres an entire book of the bible devoted to it (Song of Songs).

      Yay +5 ignorant.

    4. Re:Hypocritical by Culture20 · · Score: 2

      of course adam and eves kids had sex with each other (how else would mankind go on?)

      There are two points of creation of humans in the Bible. Adam and Eve in the second chapter of Genesis (as a flashback, note the mention of what day it is...), which talks only about Eden, sort of a proving ground for everything that would be created after solid ground. Then, on the sixth day (first chapter), God creates humanity all over the Earth. Thus, Cain went to Nod and got a wife from these other humans. Seth and the rest of Adam's brood didn't have to be incestuous, and there's no direct mention that they were. Of course, Lot's daughters on the other hand... at least they can be slightly excused for having grown up in Sodom and they thought everyone else in the world was probably dead. Although admittedly they didn't do a lot of searching in the area before they got their dad drunk.

  8. Bad Excerpt! by Pope · · Score: 4, Informative

    The point of TFA is that the book was pulled after one or two complaints based on an unedited preview version of the book and website, NOT the final version that was going to be sold in the stores! The author took out the "objectionable" material for the final version.

    It's about as stupid as all the FCC complaints sent in en masse by religious groups who never watch the shows they're supposedly objecting to.

    --
    It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    1. Re:Bad Excerpt! by SteveW928 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Haven't seen the book, but given that it was authored by an atheist, is it possibly taking a jab at the Bible, rather than being a 'bible told through Legos'? If so, maybe after some complaints, someone looked at it more closely and decided they didn't want to sell that kind of product.

    2. Re:Bad Excerpt! by lina70 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is exactly the problem I have with what Sam's Club did. The only complaints I actually could find posted about the book were actually complaints about the author's OTHER work and the fact that he is an atheist. Pulling the book because of complaints about his other work seems wrong to me. Pulling the book because the author is an Atheist is incredibly wrong to me, and I doubt Sam's Club did that (let's hope, anyway!). More likely they believed the concerns at face value and thought "oh my, this book contains sex and might be given to kids" without actually verifying the complaints they got. I just don't understand or agree with the logic of pulling one work because the author's other work offends some.

    3. Re:Bad Excerpt! by Nursie · · Score: 1

      It tells bible stories through lego.

      However you're right, it does take a jab at religion. That's because it deliberately picks the weirdest, most whacked out portions.

      It's not inaccurate though, so really there's not a lot to complain about on the Christian side. And it is bloody funny!

  9. Summary by Megane · · Score: 2

    So he makes this book doing the Old Testament, and makes scenes of minifigs "begatting" (there's a lot of that going on in the OT), and the Sams Club buyer has a problem with it. So the author removes those scenes.

    Meanwhile, the parental shitstorm stirring crew goes about spreading info about how there are all these sex scenes, and they astroturf a bunch of complaints without actually looking at the version that is being sold. Then someone else at Sams Club decides that it needs to be pulled because of all the complaints from the idiot busybodies.

    (I wonder if how much brick house was in those minifig sex scenes.)

    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  10. I can breathe easier now... by d3vpsaux · · Score: 1

    "Although Sam's Club no longer sells "The Brick Bible," the book is still available through a number of online retailers."

    This sentence from TFA might give people the wrong impression that Sam's Club is the sole, omnipotent Super-Mega shop in the United States. I'm glad to know that I can still get my suggestive Lego books from any one of a couple thousand other retailers.

    Kind of ironic that Wal-Mart (a corporation that often makes sales arguments based on religious overtones) would be willing to censor a book that is a direct interpretation of religious literature. I shutter to think what their reaction will be if someone decides to ink an uncensored graphic novel based on the Bible...

    1. Re:I can breathe easier now... by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      Direct interpretation? Do I need to do a scholarly review on this as a Bible translation? :)

    2. Re:I can breathe easier now... by Tsingi · · Score: 1

      I shutter to think what their reaction will be if someone decides to ink an uncensored graphic novel based on the Bible...

      I'd buy a copy.

    3. Re:I can breathe easier now... by Surt · · Score: 1

      I point this out only because the rest of your post was well written:
      You probably meant 'I shudder to think'.

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shudder
      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shutter

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    4. Re:I can breathe easier now... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Eze 23:20.

    5. Re:I can breathe easier now... by OctaviusIII · · Score: 1

      Hell, read the whole of Ezekiel 23 sometime.

      Seriously: the prodigal son? Spent his money on booze and whores. Jesus' death on a cross? About the most brutal, sanctioned way to die in that time period. Noah's daughters got him drunk so they could get themselves pregnant by him; Jacob lied and backstabbed his way through life and stole his brother's inheritance; and Abraham whored out Sarah so he wouldn't have trouble in Egypt. Not for kids. Lego Bible? Definitely not for kids.

      --
      What's this? Another weblog? On transit?
    6. Re:I can breathe easier now... by afabbro · · Score: 1

      Kind of ironic that Wal-Mart (a corporation that often makes sales arguments based on religious overtones)

      Do you have an example of this? And perhaps an explanation of what an "argument based on religious overtones" means, because that is vague, bordering on non-English...

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    7. Re:I can breathe easier now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ezekiel is the awesome-est book of the bible, full of the craziest acid trips all thrown together.

      It would probably be pretty hard to do a proper brick testament version of Ezekiel 1 though... need some really weird bricks for that.

    8. Re:I can breathe easier now... by HappyHead · · Score: 1

      From the context and surrounding grammar/sentence structure, I'm going to hazard a guess that "sales arguments" is a local dialect version of "sales pitch" or "advertizement" (ie: an argument for why you should buy something from them). Sort of like how in some parts of the U.S. you sit on a couch, and in others you sit on a chesterfield, despite it being the same object.

      Personally, I don't have any examples, all I can really remember about Wal-mart ads is bright blue and yellow. Also, I live in a much less religious region than most, and our local advertizements for absolutely everyone tend to be focused on "we charge less than those other guys".

    9. Re:I can breathe easier now... by edjs · · Score: 1

      I have no idea how Wal-Mart reacted to it, but see Book of Genesis by R Crumb for an uncensored graphic novel based on the Bible.

    10. Re:I can breathe easier now... by Hope+Thelps · · Score: 1

      Do I need to do a scholarly review on this as a Bible translation? :)

      Please do.

      --
      To summarise the summary of the summary: people are a problem. ~ h2g2
    11. Re:I can breathe easier now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would have bought it just to see how Ezekiel 23:20 could be done in lego.

    12. Re:I can breathe easier now... by F1re · · Score: 1

      Lot's daughters had sex with him, Noah got drunk all by himself and then something happened with one of his sons but the text does not say what - but it was worth a pretty severe curse.

      --
      ...there is no sig...
    13. Re:I can breathe easier now... by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      I simply cannot fathom the cognitive dissonance the literalists are having with that one. Nice find - I read the whole thing years ago, but that part escaped my memory.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    14. Re:I can breathe easier now... by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Seconded. Crumb is unspeakably good. And his take on Genesis shows it.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  11. good by frovingslosh · · Score: 1

    Fewer kids get religious propaganda this way. Seems fine to me.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:good by lina70 · · Score: 2

      It's not unheard of for people to become Atheist after reading the Bible. That's what did it for Penn Jillette!

      http://bigthink.com/ideas/20808

  12. Facebook Post Suggests the Website is the Problem by Paul+Slocum · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The woman who posted on Facebook seems to be saying that the content that is inappropriate for children is not in the book, but on the website. The book was edited for kids, but she's saying that kids these days know to look for a website for more content if they like something, and the website contains adult-oriented violent and sexually charged themes that were edited from the book, which is marketed towards kids. I don't know that I totally agree, but I can kinda see her point that if a franchise like this is marketed towards kids, then you kinda expect the entire franchise to be that way. Just because you think the bible is the word of God doesn't necessarily mean you want to teach all of the most violent and sexual parts to your 6-year-old.

  13. Completely logical actions... by drb226 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Parents pick up what appears to be a children's book, later discover it uses legos to illustrate sex in a few of the images. Sam's gets numerous complaints, pulls the book off the shelves, and tells the author the book sells well, but they won't stock more unless he removes the few sexual images. He does, and his books continue to sell rather well. Honestly, the whole "Bible" detail of this story is simply a confounding factor to make slashdotters say OMG religion so dumb! Censorship! etc. Does the KJV speak in plain terms about sex? Sure, if you speak English euphemisms from the 1600s. This is why parents are a lot more comfortable reading the KJV to their kids, rather than showing them lego people having sex. Let's all go back to our caves now; nothing to see here.

    1. Re:Completely logical actions... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      You did miss out one part: The book was actually revised to remove the sex, but it appears that most of the complaints were from busybodies who never actually read the books they complain about, and so they continued to protest the sexual content even after it was removed.

    2. Re:Completely logical actions... by vadim_t · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ah, so it's okay to read to children so long they don't actually understand what it means? And the problem of representing it graphically is that it makes it understandable?

      I think there should be consistency: Either both the book and the bible should be removed, or both the book and the bible should be fine to sell.

    3. Re:Completely logical actions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it appears that most of the complaints were from busybodies who never actually read the books they complain about
       
      Sounds like most of the comments on articles around here. So the difference between religious busy bodies and Slashtards is the choice of materials they bitch about?

    4. Re:Completely logical actions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hold on there. It's fine to teach kids how babies are made but it's not ok to show them porn.

    5. Re:Completely logical actions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no sexual illustrations in the book. You're having the same uninformed reaction as the people who complained to Sam's Club.T

    6. Re:Completely logical actions... by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      There are things in our society that it is fine to reference in text, which we oppose to referencing visually. For example, I'm sure a graphic representation of my family tree and how it formed would be considered mature viewing by most -- a lot of the details we find uncomfortable tend to be left out in the text.

    7. Re:Completely logical actions... by steelfood · · Score: 1

      it uses legos to illustrate sex in a few of the images

      Great. LEGO porn. What's next, a magazine with centerfolds of the latest LEGO minifigure in candid poses?

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    8. Re:Completely logical actions... by drb226 · · Score: 1

      Ah, so it's okay to read to children so long they don't actually understand what it means?

      Quite frankly, yes. This is quite the norm in our society; lots of "kid movies" make references to sex that children won't catch but adults will. I was just watching Free Willie with my little brother yesterday, and the Native American guy explained to Jesse how his tribe, in the days of plenty, used to spend all day carving totems, telling stories, and making babies. There was no need for flashbacks illustrating these actions, and if images of Indians having sex were displayed in front of my little brother, I would be very mad. Representing it graphically makes a huge difference, if not to you, then at least to most of today's society.

    9. Re:Completely logical actions... by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's one thing to say Penis on TV, it's another thing to show one.

    10. Re:Completely logical actions... by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      They probably should take a hint from old-school catholicism and read the mass and cite the bible only in latin. Might help to resolve this particular case of cognitive dissonance.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  14. No, not good by Weedhopper · · Score: 1

    This is religious satire. More kids need to be exposed to religious satire.

  15. Geology says you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's not really much more to it than that.

    I remember that Noah's ark was found on top of a mountain,

    Link pls?

    1. Re:Geology says you're wrong. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I know that AC is entitled to take statements, sentences, and even phrases out of context. The phrase he quotes was part of "I remember that Noah's ark was found on top of a mountain, then I remember that story being "debunked", "

      Link? Some of us were around for decades before links were available. I'll explain once more, for you young puppies, that I'm more than twice as old as the intartubez. "I remember" means exactly that - I remember. It does not mean "I read on the internet".

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    2. Re:Geology says you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Different AC)

      I understand, but the guy's going by the old saying: "Pica or it didn't happen."

    3. Re:Geology says you're wrong. by The+Rizz · · Score: 1

      I prefer the "Elite or it didn't happen" version of that old saying; you get 20% more ppi (proof per inch) that way.

  16. Re:Facebook Post Suggests the Website is the Probl by lina70 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't parents know how to manage kids' use of computers & the internet?

  17. Re:Facebook Post Suggests the Website is the Probl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "But the internets are our babysitters! How dare you imply that plopping the kid in front o' the computer on the internets and then going out to git a drink is irresponsible! Ain't none o' that immoral stuff on the internets 'cept what them dirty-book-makin' people put there! Hang 'em!"

    *Note: I don't believe this myself, but was once actually told this by someone who gave every impression of meaning it in a completely non-ironic manner, after asking if doing that might not be a good idea. I don't even live in the Southern U.S. where that accent would make sense. The person in question adopted this accent years previous, when I commented that their claims of being french weren't supported by their very non-french accent.

  18. Not censorship? What do people buy in a store? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is sold in a store should be reflected by what the people request to be sold there.

    The book section has recent published material forced into circulation not by what the people want to buy.

    On the other hand, the people request their grocery store to be diverse as well as their clothes store to be diverse.

    Christmas has been stolen by chinese imports to sell not Christian bibles but the anti-christ religion of merchandize from a fictitious fat man: this proves the mockery of atheism to astroturf all over other religions, but nobody complains because a country of immigrants just does the bogus celebration to "blend-in" with their related immigrants like a few extra linemen on a football field not being called a violation.

  19. warning by kwikrick · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's not for nothing that the brick bible website has this warning:

    "The Bible contains material some may consider morally objectionable and/or inappropriate for children. These labels identify stories containing: nudity, sexual content, violence, cursing"

    --
    assignment != equality != identity
  20. imagine explaining Christianity to an alien by kawabago · · Score: 1

    Christians use magic wine and magic bread in the ritual cannibalism of a man who died 2,000 years ago.

    1. Re:imagine explaining Christianity to an alien by PwnzerDragoon · · Score: 1

      Catholics != Christians. If you're going to mock somebody, make sure you're targeting the right group.

    2. Re:imagine explaining Christianity to an alien by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink (John 6:53-55).

      I believe that's in the Bible all Christians read. Or is that in the special Catholic only Bible?

    3. Re:imagine explaining Christianity to an alien by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excuse me, I happen to be a Catholic; and last time I checked, the Catholic Church is Christian.

      Brandon S.

    4. Re:imagine explaining Christianity to an alien by PwnzerDragoon · · Score: 1

      Catholics take that verse far more seriously, and to an extent literally, than most other Christian sects. They have something called transubstantiation, in which they believe the bread and wine of the sacrament physically represents Jesus's flesh and blood. Most other sects view it as a metaphor, the flesh and blood being the word of God. As only Catholics attach literal meaning to this statement, any cannibalism jokes should be directed at them.

      Yes, I know I'm being overly pedantic. In my defense, I had way too much to eat at thanksgiving dinner and am currently only capable of nitpicking wisecracks made by strangers on the internet. I promise by this time tomorrow I'll return to Slashdot's regular schedule of car analogies and Apple hating.

    5. Re:imagine explaining Christianity to an alien by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      I take it the evangelical fundamentalist biblical literalism has a special "literal" interpretation of that passage? Always been wondering about that one.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    6. Re:imagine explaining Christianity to an alien by Lanteran · · Score: 1

      Er- I'd say catholics most certainly are Christians.

      --
      "People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
    7. Re:imagine explaining Christianity to an alien by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Christianity:

      - God loves you and offers a wonderful plan for your life.
      - Man is sinful and separated from God. Thus he cannot know and experience God's love and plan for his life.
      - Jesus Christ is God's only provision for man's sin. Through Him you can know and experience God's love and plan for your life.
      - We must individually receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord; then we can know and experience God's love and plan for our lives.

      If it fits into that list then it doesn't really matter what the label is on the building.

    8. Re:imagine explaining Christianity to an alien by PwnzerDragoon · · Score: 1

      Of course Catholics are Christians, but they don't represent all of Christianity. They do things other sects don't, for example, the transubstantiation thing we're talking about here. You might say Catholicism is a superset of baseline Christianity.

      To put it in a car analogy, all DeLoreans are cars, but not all cars are DeLoreans. DeLoreans have certain features that other brands don't, and they certainly do many things differently. So if you're going to make a crack about a time travel, you better make sure it has a DeLorean, because those are the only kind with enough room in the backseat for a flux capacitor.

    9. Re:imagine explaining Christianity to an alien by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      fundamentalist

      literal

      Yeah, I think that's a fair guess...

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    10. Re:imagine explaining Christianity to an alien by Lanteran · · Score: 1

      I know the organization, but it seemed that he was saying that catholics aren't christians, which is absurd. I see know that he was trying to say that some do not represent the whole though, but they do represent a huge number.

      --
      "People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
    11. Re:imagine explaining Christianity to an alien by Lanteran · · Score: 1

      now, not know.

      --
      "People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
  21. what else is new? by khipu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "I have just been informed that Sam's Club is pulling 'The Brick Bible' from the shelves of all of their retail locations nationwide due to the complaints of a handful of people that it is vulgar and violent,"

    That probably has something to do with the fact that the Bible itself is vulgar and violent: it contains human sacrifice, genocide, infidelity, and incest, much of it actually approved by God!

  22. WMT caves to religious hypocrites... by Jawnn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...film at eleven. Come on, folks. WMT is based deep in the Bible Belt. Their market demographic includes a large chunk of poorly educated, religious fundamentalists who believe that nudity, let alone sex, is "sinful". So a few dozen hypocrites called in and complained of "dirty pictures" in yet another edition of "The Good Book", and WMT nearly falls over itself to "correct" this horrifying assault on Christian children. And this surprises anyone, why?

  23. Always the same drivel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look at all the rabid atheists having a go at the bible haha

  24. And I call bullshit on that graph... by denzacar · · Score: 1

    First off, when you scroll down that same wikiMedia (not wikipedia) page you can find that other map/chart by the same author, which should make you question his/her "unbiased approach to the subject", or at least the precision of his/her data.
    Also note that neither of those graphs are currently used - cause, you know... there are better and more precise ones.

    Then there is the fact that neither of those maps currently used is of any particular value on its own.
    ESPECIALLY those related to the headcounts.
    Cause, while it may seem from the map of distribution that "Christians RULE!!111eleven!", from "religiosity" and "irreligion" maps one kinda gets the feeling that there may be a rather large percentage of bollocks in those stats.

    Then, back to that graph, besides it being out of date - there is the fact that CIA's "The World Factbook" (which is the source of data for that graph) doesn't list its sources or methods or sample sizes.
    Which makes it basically more akin to guesstimates than statistics.
    They can't even be bothered to be up to date with readily available data on USA, let alone the rest of the world.
    And where they pulled those numbers on protestants from is anyone's guess.

    So, I wouldn't really bet the farm on those 55.6% you got from that graph.
    Particularly when taken into account the fact that it's mostly the people in "undeveloped countries" who give credence to the stories in ANY of the religious books.

    And that's all without going into the whole "it's a packaged deal" thing where you can't pick and choose the bits of God's words you'll believe in - making all of them unbelievers to some extent.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  25. HAH! by idbeholda · · Score: 1

    If they think the lego bible is racy, wait till they see what's in the King James version of The Bible. Specifically, The Book Of Deuteronomy.

    Oh...

    Wait..

  26. Formerly interesting by Alimony+Pakhdan · · Score: 0

    That site was at one time interesting for a unique portrayal of texts shared by several faiths. At some point the creator decided to pander to the anti-theist crowd, or maybe he was just like that all along and held it in check. After that I stopped bothering with the site.

  27. Re:Facebook Post Suggests the Website is the Probl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    the bible doesn't have a chapter on that

  28. content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if one reads the bible one will find more disturbing things thats not good for the young.

  29. Bible too racy for... anyone with morals by ukemike · · Score: 1

    The written bible is not offensive because the bumpkins who take offense at the adult content are the same people who could never read the book in the first place. BUT the Brick Testament is basically a comic book version of the bible, and anyone can look at the shocking pictures and say "oh my God."

    I love the Brick Testament. It is probably the most convincing illustration that the bible is both nonsensical and morally abhorrent. It achieves these ends by quoting the bible and by showing you the story. It is a bit like Tina Fey and her skit about Sara Palin where she quoted Palin word for word. It takes little more than a clear illustration of the stories therein to show you why the last 2000 years have been dominated by war and genocide. The god of the christians, jews, and muslims is a cold blooded genocidal monster. If you don't believe me read Joshua.

    I'm not surprised that a bunch of Christian busy bodies were offended by their own holy scriptures, I find them offensive as well.

    --
    -- QED
  30. Ah Christians.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The old testament must be one of the most gratuitously violent and disgusting work of fiction in existence. The God that features in it is the most vengeful and destructive figure one can possibly imagine.

    And these folks are worried about the sex bits? Nutcases.

  31. Sexual Discharges by pfafrich · · Score: 1
    Have a look at Old Testament > The Law > Sexual Discharges. NSFW. Which starts with the line, 'When a man ejaculates semen...'.

    Now in its original context I've no problem with the written version, entirely in keeping with the spirit of the book. That section was never intended to be illustrated, indeed the illustrations go against the moral spirit of book. Its intended as book of rules of conduct not as a spectacle of images to be gawped at. I'm generally in favour of using illustrations to help interpret books making them more accessible. Here its just inappropriate and Sam's Club is entirely right to ban it.

    Later in the same section Leviticus 15:28-15:30, the bibles advocating the large scale slaughter of doves. Apparently women should sacrifice two doves or pigeons eight days after the end of her period. So thats 24 doves a year. Its a good thing all christians don't follow this as we would very soon rid the world of doves. I now know what I'll ask the next time the Jehovah Witnesses come knocking on my door.

    --
    There are four sorts of people in the world: fools, lunatics, idiots and morons. - Umberto Eco, Foucaut's pendulum.
    1. Re:Sexual Discharges by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Given that doves, at least the variety hanging around here in the city, are merely rats with wings, I wholly endorse that commandment. Apart from that, I find the so-called "moral spirit" of that particular passage way more abhorrent than the illustration. Well, "morals" are for people not intelligent enough to have ethics.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  32. Re:Facebook Post Suggests the Website is the Probl by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

    Yes it does, Moses took their tablets and broke them when he found that the children weren't up to the responsibility to use them correctly.

  33. Why hasn't the Bible been banned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's got incest, masturbation, blasphemy, homosexuality and witchcraft.

    Only reason I read it actually.

  34. Not censorship by jdfox · · Score: 1
    There was no reason to file this article under "censorship", with the little icon of the guy with his mouth taped shut. One large US retail chain has decided that they won't stock the fourth book in the series. That's not censorship.

    If Sam's Club were lobbying Congress to pass legislation banning the book from being printed or sold, or getting an agreement from all of the other major retailers not to stock the book, then that would be censorship.

    I can't find anything on the author's Brick Testament Facebook page calling this "censorship", and the author notes on that page that "The Brick Bible remains available at many other major retailers like Barnes & Noble and Amazon.com, and at many independent bookstores as well." The free PR that this is generating will probably boost sales of the book overall.

  35. Typically Stupid Walmart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems Walmart is to stupid to understand that "Bible" means "book".

  36. Same old same old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These 'showy off' efforts purporting to be risque remind me of the strongest guy in the school calling the school wimp names. Right! Everyone knows that nothing will happen though a few girls may make a few remarks sticking up for the bully. There is no bravery there.

    Similarly there is no bravery in Smith's effort. A REAL tough guy would be really risque by publishing The Lego Q'uran. Then I'd be impressed by tough guy Smith having the balls to do something truly brave. And showing how really does not care about religion.

  37. any details? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    comedy = tragedy + time,what do you think of this
    belstaff leather jackets
    belstaff jacket
    belstaff men
    Belstaff Women