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More On Why It Stinks To Work At Zynga

bdking writes "If a recent internal survey and reviews left on glassdoor.com are to be believed, working at social games company Zynga isn't much fun. Zynga's competitive, metrics-driven culture may be scaring away potential acquisitions and forcing out employees seeking better work-life balance and less stress."

24 of 325 comments (clear)

  1. Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Funny

    According to the article, PopCap turned down their offer and went with Electronic Arts instead, because they thought that working conditions would be better at EA. Yes, read that last part again: they would rather deal with the working conditions at EA than work for Zynga. That's pretty bad.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The most visible citation is this: http://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html

      There's likely similar stories out there, with a little help from Google.

    2. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by Zarim · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This reminds me of something one of the teacher's assistants at my college had said. He'd done a paid internship at Zynga and the president at one point had said to the developers (it's been a few years so I'm paraphrasing) "You are not smart. Your ideas are not innovative. You're not here to make the next greatest thing, you're here to rip off what already works and tweak it so we can maximize profits."

    3. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by PatDev · · Score: 5, Informative

      The best part of the (sorta) linked article is that the author of EA Spouse now works for Zynga as Lead Systems Designer.

      That poor couple just can't catch a break!

    4. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by wiedzmin · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, they laid off a good chunk of their employees and closed a bunch of offices since then.

      --
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    5. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by turgid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When you work in software development, like many other fields, there are times near a release (or whatever milestone) where you have to work a lot of overtime. It's simply a fact of life

      Nonsense

      If you have to do that, it's due to bad management i.e bad planning and a lack of "alignment" (*cough* - PHB speak) in the organisation.

      Note that I didn't say "bad managers": they're only part of the problem.

      Try a little bit of Scrum, Agile and Design for Lean Six Sigma.

      If you can't handle 80 hour weeks

      No one can honestly say that they can work 80 hours in a week. Sure, they may be physically present, but during at least 30-35 of those hours they will be producing next to nothing, and quite probably contributing more problems in terms of mistakes to the project due to fatigue.

      You macho people need to get a healthy dose of reality.

    6. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by s73v3r · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When you work in software development, like many other fields, there are times near a release (or whatever milestone) where you have to work a lot of overtime.

      No, not true. Furthermore, in most other fields, if you end up working overtime, you're usually compensated for it. There is absolutely NO REASON WHATSOEVER why software engineers should not be compensated for excess overtime.

    7. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by Ubergrendle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I manage a large operations department for a bank. Had chornic overtime issues, employee relations was involved. 60 hour work weeks were the norm.

      I mandated that all projects (we did implementations as well as incident support) would not be allowed to budget more than 35 hours a week (5 hours for overhead/utilization) of effort. OT would have to be approved by me directly. All OT had to be paid for by the projects submitting the work.

      6 months later, we had regular 40 hour work weeks for 95% of the staff. OT dropped. And the best part? I got the cream of the crop from other departments requesting to work for my shop... they wanted the work/life balance. Normal hours were suddenly a recruiting feature.

      Chronic OT is always a sign of either ineffective people managers, or a broken corporate culture. Always.

      --
      John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
    8. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by turgid · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, I'm a software developer in a global organisation with 3600 permanent engineers plus contractors selling millions of products per quarter globally. I do C and C++ on Linux with TDD, shell scripting, Perl, Ruby... you name it. I've done a bit of scrum mastering myself and have been doing scrum for over 4 years.

      If done properly, it works. And we always meet our deadlines, always, with the planned quality a feature set. I've never had to work more than 4 hours unplanned overtime in a week in all that time, and those occasions are only 3 or 4 times a year.

      I've worked at mad 80-hour a week places before. They're a complete shambles, run by idiots who treat the engnieers like dirt. I'll not be going back.

    9. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by stickyboot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just because its standard doesn't excuse it from being abuse.

    10. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I left the games industry because this long periods of 80 hour weeks were expected of us. I'm a freelance contractor earning more money and rarely doing more than 50 hours in a week. When I do extra hours then I charge for them.

      Believe me, EA_Spouse's husband may have been working in one of the worst places but the basic problems are common throughout the industry. And the really bad thing - it doesn't work!

    11. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by syousef · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, they laid off a good chunk of their employees and closed a bunch of offices since then.

      I thought they banned having spouses.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    12. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you want the opportunity to make a six figure salary, you're going to have to be prepared to make some sacrifices.

      I make a six figure salary without having to work 80 hours every week, now or at any point in the past. So do many other people I know, working at Microsoft, Google and Amazon.

      Face it, you're just regurgitating the story that has been fed to employees so that they can be squeezed for a little while longer. Come to think of it, how many Zynga employees actually earn six figures?

    13. Re:Pretty bad when EA seems more appealing by Daetrin · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I worked at EA as a programmer from late 1999 to late 2001, or rather at a company that had been been bought by EA a year or two before i started working there and was gradually brought more and more under the EA umbrella during the entire time i was there.

      I was one of eleven programmers on a millon+ unit game and its expansion. Only seven of us were actually working on the game full time, though admittedly we had the benefit(?) of a lot of legacy code from the previous game in the series.

      I got paid considerably less than a six figure salary. I don't remember the exact number, but i believe i started out slightly below the median five figure salary and ended up slightly above the median five figure salary by the time i and a lot of other people were laid off, shortly after finishing the expansion.

      I don't remember exactly which point we started working 80+ hour weeks, i might be able to dig up some old references in emails and such if i start checking, but i know it was for several months before the release of the main game and at least a month before the release of the expansion.

      After getting laid off by EA i then went to work at another game company that wasn't as successful but had pretty much the same practices. After getting laid off by that company (again after finishing up two products in two years) i ended up getting a "boring" job working on business software. Except now i'm an hourly employee and i get paid more than i did in the games industry (though still not six figures) and i've been here for over five years without a single round of layoffs. On the two occasions where overtime has been required it was for _far_ less than 80 hours a week and and it was only for a week or two each time. And wonder of wonders, i got paid time and a half for that overtime! (Funny the correlation there, the company demands less overtime when it means paying me more.)

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  2. Re:Metrics are a synonym for Hell by alvinrod · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Metrics can be used for comparison, it's just that most of them aren't good for measuring performance and that when you incentivize people to produce large scores for certain metrics, they'll start to cook the books.

    For example, lines of code per hour is an absolutely terrible metric to measure performance. It does not take into account the type of problem or how difficult it may be to engineer a solution for that problem. Also, once it becomes apparent that people rewarded for producing a larger number of LoC per hour, they'll start to produce more lines of code, whether they're necessary or not, often to the detriment of readability.

    There's nothing wrong with measuring things like this, and many software development methodologies use metrics such as LoC to provide feedback for the project, but in no way should they be used to evaluate employees. Many of the attributes that make up a good employee cannot be quantified by simple metrics. Metrics are just another tool. Using them correctly is necessary to get anything meaningful out of them.

  3. Quelle surprise by Dogtanian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm shocked, *shocked* that a job involving writing human Skinner boxes masquerading as games is less than spiritually satisfying.

    I'm equally shocked that a company whose business revolves around getting money from people via human Skinner boxes masquerading as games might be a bunch of worthless dicks and not that much fun to work for.

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  4. Re:Metrics are a synonym for Hell by sribe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's nothing wrong with measuring things like this, and many software development methodologies use metrics such as LoC to provide feedback for the project, but in no way should they be used to evaluate employees.

    Evaluating software developers is hard. So, just as companies would like to use software generating tools to de-skill the programming positions, they'd also like to use metrics to de-skill some of those pesky high-paid management positions. Both attempts to substitute automation for human skill work about equally well ;-)

  5. Re:Metrics are a synonym for Hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's best when you write -2000 lines of code during the day.

  6. Another data point by swillden · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A friend from church mentioned to me a while ago that Zynga had been trying to recruit his son, a 16 year-old junior in high school. That really made me wonder about the company. The kid's smart, no doubt about it, and a decent coder (his code is functional, but not particularly clean or maintainable -- pretty typical for a bright novice), but I can really only think of one reason why a company would want to hire a 16 year-old, put him up in an apartment in NYC and make him write code full-time: To exploit his willingness to work insane hours for peanuts until he burns out.

    If they really thought he was brilliant and a great long-term hire, they'd offer him an internship and help pay for his college education in exchange for some work now and a lot more work after he gets some CS knowledge to go along with his coding skills.

    His parents refused to let him go... they didn't like the idea of turning a 16 year-old loose on his own in NYC, for some reason. I'm encouraging him to apply for a summer internship at Google. Most of those go to college students, but I think he's good enough to make the cut, and a summer internship will pay him well for a great learning opportunity without compromising his continuing formal education.

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  7. Re:Metrics are a synonym for Hell by tompaulco · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If my company paid me solely based on how many lines of code I can write in an hour, then I would spend half an hour writing a code generating program, and the rest of my career there justifying more hardware on which to run my program.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  8. Re:Ah, capitalism. by s73v3r · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The difference is that in capitalism you have the choice of not working for such a company

    And this is the largest problem with those that religiously worship capitalism. Whether or not you have the "choice" to work for this company is irrelevant; the fact of the matter is that this bullshit should not be allowed, period. When you start to allow companies to act like total assholes because "people have a choice," then if they get successful, then all the other companies will start to emulate that. Look at what happened with retirement plans: Most companies used to offer pensions, which were great for workers. Then a few removed them and went to the far shittier 401k plan. This was deemed acceptable because "you have the choice to work for a company that provides a pension." Fast forward a few years, and now it's almost impossible to find a company that offers pensions to it's employees, unless they are a union job. So don't give me that bullshit about "choice of working".

  9. and I suspect... by publiclurker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    that you are a pointy-haired who feels that blaming your workers for your inability to properly budget time and expenses is a viable business strategy.

  10. Re:That's it? by syousef · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You work 12- hour days and you're complaining? I'm a resident physician and work 12 hours shifts everyday. Plus, I have to take call which translates into 30-hour shifts on occasion. My personal record is 32 hours awake in the hospital---and that's after Congress stepped in and created the work-hour limitations.

    The medical industry is severly broken. You wouldn't let a truck driver operate his vehicle 12 hours straight, let alone 32. If he did and he had an accident he'd be imprisoned. Yet doctors do insane shifts. That is just plain ridiculous. You need to have your shifts limited to 8 hours in any 24 hour period and train a lot more doctors. The reason this isn't happening is your medical associations artificially limit supply of doctors to drive rates up for the elite specialists. Again ridiculous. How many people have died because a doctor has been too tired to do their job properly and has made a mistake. Do I dare ask you if you've ever made a fatal mistake due to fatigue, and how you live with it?

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  11. Re:Ah, capitalism. by Jappus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually, you're quite confused about two very, very different terms here -- which might be understandable as European political systems are impressively more complex and varied than the "Two Parties - plus various nutjobs" system that seems prevalent in the United States (from a European point of view).

    You have to understand the fundamental difference between socialist -- which is the political system that Karl Marx described as the dictatorship of the masses to break the hold of the few over production -- and social democrat, which realizes that dictatorships are bad, but also that having more should mean that you can also do more for those that have less.

    Further more, there are conservative central parties -- that mostly believe that social responsibility is a worthwhile goal, but should flow from moral responsibility and incentives instead of direct governmental pressure. Then there are right-wing conservatives, that are mostly like the central conservative parties as far as their social approach is concerned, but put more pressure on morals, up to reaching semi-tacit demands for more socio-moral homogeneity. In themselves, these conservative parties are not actually economically more conservative. At best, they are more open towards working WITH big companies to reach a particular goal instead of AGAINST them.

    But mostly, the economic outlook depends more on whether you adhere to the more liberal wing of your chosen political stream, or the more social/rightist (as in rights of the people, not right as in right vs left).

    In Europe (and especially Germany from which I hail), you can be a liberal conservative, a social democrat, a liberal, a conservative, a green, a leftist, a socialist, a communist, a liberal-economist, a rights-liberal, a rights-conservative, an extreme leftist (note: != socialist or communist), a green, a leftist green, a liberal green, a conservative green, a liberal social democrat with ecological interests (a.k.a. green); and so on. Ohh, and you can of course be a neo-fascist, if that's to your liking.

    And the best: Depending on where you live in Europe, all these streams (except for maybe the neo-fascists and extreme leftists) are represented by parties that have between 10-25% of the popular vote with actual voices in the respective parliaments -- and sometimes governments.

    Compared to the US-System, Europe is a melting pot of political ideals, where you can be in a conservative party which collectively tries to keep Nuclear Reactors running while allowing gay marriage, wanting minimum wage, and trying to introduce religious lessons in school. The same applies to leftists, liberals, greens, etc. to the same degree.

    Isn't having a (non-exclusively) plurality vote system great?