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Ask Slashdot: Open Vs. Closed-Source For a Start-Up

atamagabakkaomae writes "Together with a friend, I am starting up a company in Japan that develops sensors used in motion capture. For these sensors we develop hardware and software. Part of the software development is an open-source toolkit called openMAT. We have some special purpose algorithms that we developed ourselves and that are better than our competitor's technology. I first wanted to publish everything open-source to spark interest in our company and to do development in collaboration with the community. My company partner disagreed and said that we will lose our technological advantage if we open-source it. So I eventually published only a part of the toolkit open-source and closed the most interesting code. How do you guys think that open-sourcing your code-base affects a company's business? Is it wrong for a small company to give away precious intellectual property like that or will it on the contrary help the development of the company?"

28 of 325 comments (clear)

  1. No need to help your competitors by Calibax · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You believe you have better algorithms than the competition. Starting a company is hard enough without giving Christmas presents to the competition. Keep everything closed while the company is young and vulnerable. Open source your code later if it won't help the competition AND you believe it will add value to your company. How far would Google have progressed if they had open sourced their search engine ten minutes after they had it working?

    Frankly, if you have to ask this question you aren't really serious about succeeding.

    1. Re:No need to help your competitors by gnasher719 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The question is: How is publishing code as open source of advantage to you? That's what you have to ask yourself. If you base your work on existing open source code, then you obviously have the advantage of being able to use that code, and the disadvantage that everyone else can use your additions. Or if you had a customer that would pay you lots of money if you let them integrate your code into their open source code, that would be an advantage. But I can't quite see in your case how you benefit from opening up your source.

    2. Re:No need to help your competitors by spyder-implee · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think it might depend on how the company is viewed in the industry. Will you gain some street-cred by releasing it as open-source after your initial advantage is becoming less relevant? Perhaps there is an option to open-source the code after it's been in the wild for some time, and the company has new and better secrets to push their latest products?

      --
      Take what ye can. Give nothing back!
    3. Re:No need to help your competitors by khipu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Note that he said he is in the hardware business; the software is just something extra.

      I suspect that if they aren't competitive on the hardware, a few extra bits of binary-only software won't help. If other people manage to make better hardware at the same or lower price, they'll figure out how to make better software as well.

    4. Re:No need to help your competitors by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well but that's kind of a binary response. I think a hybrid approach serves the motion picture industry best.

      *Keep your secret sauce secret!*
      If you've developed something new and novel then open source isn't going to improve it you're just giving away the labors of your intellect. There is absolutely not benefit from giving away your recipe for success.

      *Open source the rest!*
      Your secret sauce if it's a mo-cap algorithm can return the tracking/skeletal data without giving away how you derived it from the RAW data. Make all of the translators, interfaces and UI open source. This is how most vfx studios prefer to receive their tools since they will inevitably want to customize it and work it into their pipeline.

      If it's something that's been done 1,000 times and nobody does it better or worse then you only benefit from getting the community to help create your product. The community is great at uncreative and uninspired work. The community is not going to improve your novel motion capture algorithm.

    5. Re:No need to help your competitors by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are you trying to suggest that those of us that were here in the 90s wouldn't tell him to keep the secret sauce secret?

      If so, I am here to tell you that you're wrong.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:No need to help your competitors by DerekLyons · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think it might depend on how the company is viewed in the industry. Will you gain some street-cred by releasing it as open-source

      I can't think of a single industry where you'd gain useful 'street cred' by releasing your code as open source.

    7. Re:No need to help your competitors by ETEQ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Frankly, if you have to ask this question you aren't really serious about succeeding.

      I was with you right up until this bit. The arrogant presumption just drips off these words.

    8. Re:No need to help your competitors by Evil+Pete · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agree. Open source an API to use your hidden stuff. Someone will eventually reverse engineer your algorithms but hopefully by then you will have got past the survival stage and have progressed your work further.

      --
      Bitter and proud of it.
    9. Re:No need to help your competitors by Missing.Matter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think it really depends on how new the industry is. For example, in the robotics industry, Willow Garage open sourced the software they use to run their PR2 robot. The end result is that pretty much every robotics lab in the country is using their software... maybe even some of their competitors. Now, what does this mean for their bottom line? I'm not sure. But it does mean that more and more people are adopting their platform, and perhaps these labs will be buying a couple PR2 robots (at $500,000 a pop) sometime in the future. But Willow Garage can afford to do this because 1) robotics is a new industry and there are no monolithic players yet and 2) there are no stadards they have to dethrone. Might as well make your own software the defacto standard in that case.

      So in that sense, if your customer base is small, and open sourcing will make your cusomter base want to use your product over a competitor who has closed source code, then it seems like a good idea to open source. If you're not targeting people who appreciate open source code (say, if you make accounting software or something) then there really is no compelling reason to.

    10. Re:No need to help your competitors by zippthorne · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think the key here is the question of what is it you plan to sell. If you plan to sell the software.. opening up the source would probably be counter-productive. If you plan to sell a solution, of which the software is a part.. then, you might have some advantage.

      Red hat, for instance, does not sell operating systems. They sell support. Indeed, most of the software they ship isn't even theirs, but by going open source, they have the license to ship it all together and support the whole package.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    11. Re:No need to help your competitors by Jason+Earl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is a little company called Red Hat, perhaps you have heard of them. Their competitors have had a distinct habit of taking their Free Software and adding a few pieces of proprietary code. These additions generally made the competition nicer to use than Red Hat, but for whatever reason the competitors never were able to gain any significant market share.

      Caldera, SuSE, Novell, and most recently Oracle have all taken a crack at Red Hat using software that was largely based on Red Hat's own distribution. So far this strategy has produced nothing but failure.

    12. Re:No need to help your competitors by story645 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Willow Garage open sourced the software they use to run their PR2 robot

      I think Willow Garage almost had to because they were using lots of open source tools in the first place. ROS is based on playerstage, which is GPL, and a lot of the heavy computer vision stuff is OpenCv, which itself was originally open-sourced by Intel. And the deal with everyone using ROS had a lot to do with development shifting from playerstage to ROS 'cause they were similar but ROS was saner, so they became the standard in large part 'cause they improved on the existing open source standard rather then trying to create some kind of large scale shift in the community. Plus, Willow Garage is as much experimental lab as company, so I don't know if it works as a good case study 'cause it sort of has a weird mix of end goals.

      Willow Garage also gained a lot of cred by taking over OpenCV from intel and actively maintaining it, which isn't something a fledgling company can do but is worth considering. They adopted the library 'cause it was critical to their business and considered something of a standard in the vision community, which meant a lot of people were already using it, so it was popular enough that maintaining it was seen as a good thing.

      --
      open source modern art: laser taggi
  2. Your partner has a point by InsightIn140Bytes · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Your company is just starting up and probably isn't established in the industry. Giving away everything you have done better than your competitors is not going to end well. Remember that they are already established in the industry, and way more known than you. You're already at disadvantage there. Don't give away the one thing you have - technological advantage.

    Since you work in a very specific industry and not with something that has everyday uses for everyone or at least lots of people, open sourcing your code won't spark interest in your company or get you a community that helps you develop it. Less specialized software already doesn't get contributors, and if they do, it takes insane amount of time to look over the contributions. You work in a very niche industry - you won't get either one of these, but instead you will give away whatever advantage you have.

    Now is not a good time to open source it. Maybe later if you grow to a large company, but not now. You will probably see most comments suggesting open sourcing it, but they are only saying so because of the community of slashdot. They aren't thinking it in business sense.

  3. Open Source (Almost) Everything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Tom Preston-Werner from GitHub recently posted his take on this question:

    http://tom.preston-werner.com/2011/11/22/open-source-everything.html

    The tl;dr version of it -- open source everything except what is intrinsic to your core business value. My personal take is that if you can't beat your competitors with a mostly open book, you won't beat them with a closed book either. Hire the best people you can find, be thoughtful about your product, and hope for a bit of luck.

  4. Not a lot of open source companies making $$$ by durdur · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are a few. Red Hat is a good sized company. Springsource had a reasonable-sized business (tens of millions in revenue) before being acquired by VMwware. mySQL was similar in revenue, and got acquired for crazy money by Sun. There's SugarCRM. But in general .. most of the really valuable companies have really valuable software they keep under lock and key.

    1. Re:Not a lot of open source companies making $$$ by durdur · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, but those who make it mega-big (Facebook, Google, Oracle, IBM ..) all have their "crown jewels" close sourced. There is no equivalent monster company that is exclusively open source.

  5. Focus on the business. That's hard enough. by engineerErrant · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Focus, focus, focus on getting that product out the door; that alone will take everything you've got. Open-sourcing involves managing a team of people who are distributed in geography and in time zones, and may not care about the mission of your business. It's way more headache than you need right now; I'd definitely not try to add that to your already-full plate.

    Open-sourcing isn't really a marketing tool. Once you have a harem of happy customers, they will provide all the buzz you need, and then if you're profitable, you might have some breathing room to think about helping society.

  6. Open source is good... by gillbates · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Provided that you're selling something else. The reason we open source things is to give something back to the community; it helps us get our jobs done. But we don't give away our work.

    Incidentally, I'm split on the issue. I happen to know a chip vendor that lost at least one contract because their development tools were proprietary; we instead developed with their competitor's FPGA because the tools provided were free.

    But it sounds like your expertise is not in the HW, but the SW. Consider that your competition sounds like they're expertise is not in SW, but HW. With their better expertise in HW, they could probably use your algorithms to offer a better overall solution than you can, effectively shutting you out of the market.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    1. Re:Open source is good... by owlstead · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yup, I quickly shut down a move to open source within our company that gave away some of the crown jewels. Within a product we used a open source library (GPL) that we would have to improve radically to be of any business value. I'm all for open source, and I will give some open source improvements back (crypto, bouncy castle) soon. But I won't help create an open source product that will harm my Christmas bonus, or even my chances of employment.

      In other words, it makes *lots* of sense to use and maintain, and even create new open source within companies (mine does too little of that). As long as that software is what makes your business worthwhile. This is of course speaking in general. If you are big enough, you can make your money around the main, open sourced product. Generally, that won't be the case for a startup (unless it is build around something that has been open sourced by someone else).

  7. Don't by M0j0_j0j0 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Open source is only acceptable when it's other peoples work!

  8. Is it worth it? by OverflowingBitBucket · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Consider:

    - Is your product something that hobby developers might take an interest in? Will their contributions add value to your codebase or company? Will they want to contribute?

    - Is your product something other companies might find useful if they took it, added a feature, and contributed it back to you? Will they have any incentive to send anything back to you?

    - Do you have anything that you can subsequently sell to the people using your open code, that they are going to want to buy, that a competitor can't quickly spring up and take the opportunity from you?

    - Could opening the code allow you to steal away a significant part of the market, that you can later sell products or services to, for a net profit? Is this likely?

    And weigh this up against:

    - You've given away the code. Is there anything left to sell, and will people want to buy it?

    - Would your company survive if someone saw the code, thought it was a good idea, and put double the number of developers on it and told them: "make something like this"? Assume they will use your code as a reference, but no proof of it will ever be found.

    - A company with an international presence steals your code, builds it into their product, and sells it. Do you either have the resources to fight a huge multinational (possibly hiding behind a subsidiary in a different country), and the ability to survive for a few years whilst it works its way through the courts, as well as fight off baseless countersuits? Or is your product such that your company will survive, even if it is being ripped off, possibly even benefiting from the exposure?

  9. The business power of Know How by DF5JT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Since I work as sales director for an Open Source company, you will know my answer.

    Tell your partner, that not only will you keep your technological advantage, but you will always be one step ahead of any competition if you work with a community. Be a leader for that community. Provide an infrastructure that makes communication easy among contributors. Inspire them by giving directions and accept input at the same time. Tell the community about your goals, let them be part of the story, inspire them to contribute and make yourself a desirable target for talent.

    What you need is a clear focus on your business model. As an Open Source company you will market your know how, your unique expertise and tell everyone that you and only know are the ones to support a customers into the deepest abysses of technical problems. Find partners and share your expertise. Identify key contributors to the project and hire them. Be the experts in your field of knowledge and make yourself independent from a product that others can copy. Develop a business case, a sales pitch that potential customers will easily understand and identify as something that will bring a distinct advantage to their business by using your product.

    One last thing: You will have lots more fun building an OSS company than going the closed way. You will be part of a community, you will lead it and you will continuously get input from intelligent people, input that otherwise will cost you dearly when hiring external consultants.

  10. Put it in the hardware by cstdenis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Put the algorithm in the hardware if you can, then you can publish the library open source without any risks.

    There is also the question of whether closed source will even protect the algorithm. Binaries can be disassembled and reverse engineered, so closing source just makes thing more difficult if it's something as simple as an algorithm you are trying to protect.

    --
    1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
  11. Re:Heh by stinerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The difference is very relevant here. Stallman believes that developing closed source software is morally wrong, much the same way that some folks believe abortion is morally wrong. The Open Source "movement" believes that opening the source leads to technically superior software. Linus open-sourced Linux because he thought it would be more useful that way, not because he thought that he was doing something morally right.

    The OP here apparently came to an agreement with his partner that they not open source the good parts of the code. His question about it being "wrong" to open source the "good stuff" seems to come from a moral perspective. From a moral perspective, I think he's on fine ground. If he's worrying about making the most money, it depends on what he considers his company to be. Are they are hardware shop first and a software shop second or is it the other way around? If it's the former, open source it all. If it's the latter, he should close everything up if money is the only issue at hand.

  12. Ask Greenpeace: Nuclear or Solar by JoeMerchant · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've done plenty of startup software development - we tend to use open tools and LGPL libraries, staying away from the pure GPL stuff because of the shades of green that the investors turn when they hear that they don't own secrets in the code.

  13. Mixed Open/Closed Source Models Are A Disaster by sk999 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You won't build any community among your customers if they feel locked out of key pieces of the product. If anything, they will be resentful. Jon Oosterhout tried it with TCL (Scriptics). Ransom Love tried it with OpenLinux (Caldera). Both failed.

    You have already build your software on top of openMAT. If you want to be a closed-source company, then do the right thing - dump openMAT, and write your own replacement.

    For what it's worth, in my opinion people are overly obsessed with the importance of protecting their precious "IP". You are not that smart. Any "edge" it gives you will only last a short time. It is more important that the products that you make do what you say they will do, that they are delivered on schedule, that they are reliable, that they are properly documented, and that you are available to stand behind them.

  14. Or if your code isn't a product by Craig+Ringer · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'm releasing tools from my work that I developed for our operations.

    We don't want to sell the tools - for the kind of money we could get for them in a market full of existing commercial options, it wouldn't be worth the trouble, let alone the sales and support overheads.

    We could keep them closed in-house. There's nothing wrong with that and it's a viable option, but it means we give up the chance of sharing maintenance costs with others and benefiting from others' improvements to the tools.

    Consequently, we've decided to open them up. This will permit competitors to use them - but most of our local competitors have already licensed expensive commercial equivalents they're committed to, so the only way they're likely to benefit is if we push pricing down across the industry, which isn't likely at this stage given that our tools are significantly less polished and more limited than the existing commercial offerings. It'd also permit new start-ups who wanted to compete with us to use them - but we're the dominant player in a mature and saturated local market with significant community loyalty. Startups have consistently failed despite having vast amounts of cash pumped into them by outfits who want to knock us out of the way and don't mind taking epic short-term losses to do it.

    The upside of opening our tools up is that we're hoping to see participation from other companies and non-commercial publications, reducing the cost of ownership of our in-house tools, making them easier to maintain and less dependent on just one person in one company. That should help future-proof them for us if they're successful, and hopefully get us the use of contributed enhancements we wouldn't have developed ourselves.

    IMO this is one area where OSS is really key in commercial use: when you need to build tools that help your business but aren't viable as a product.