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Life Possible On 'Large Regions' of Mars

astroengine writes "Australian scientists who modeled conditions on Mars to examine how much of the Red Planet was habitable have said that 'large regions' could sustain life. Using decades of global data, the researchers have evaluated the entire planet, and found that 3 percent of the Martian volume could sustain Earth-like microbial life. As a comparison, only one percent of the volume of Earth contains life. However, the only habitable regions are below the Martian surface where the temperature and pressure could sustain liquid water."

39 of 154 comments (clear)

  1. So it's time to drill? by mosb1000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'd be interested to know how deep they think you'd have to drill to find water beneath the surface of mars. If it's actually a reasonable depth, it seems like it could be a good source of propellant for a return trip, were a manned mission ever to take place.

    1. Re:So it's time to drill? by FTWinston · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It could also be a good source of propellant for an unmanned sample return mission. If the drilling/refining component of this mission proved to be reliable enough for the unmanned return trip, and was able to continue producing fuel after the return capsule had left, it could conceivably then be used to provide fuel for a manned return trip. (At least for the return-to-martian-orbit part).

      But unless it had a track record, I'd be wary of risking my life on the assumption that fuel could be extracted.

    2. Re:So it's time to drill? by somersault · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But unless it had a track record, I'd be wary of risking my life on the assumption that fuel could be extracted.

      Which is just one of the reasons that you're not an astronaut. They risk their lives just to get out into space in the first place.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    3. Re:So it's time to drill? by FTWinston · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Which is just one of the reasons that you're not an astronaut.

      The main reasons being my nationality, my height, my short-sightedness, and my wife.

      They risk their lives just to get out into space in the first place.

      You do realise that manned spacecraft tend to be rigorously tested first? The first moon landing was done by the 11th Apollo craft for a reason, you know.

    4. Re:So it's time to drill? by kelemvor4 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They risk their lives just to get out into space in the first place.

      You do realise that manned spacecraft tend to be rigorously tested first? The first moon landing was done by the 11th Apollo craft for a reason, you know.

      They do lots of testing. However, "astronaut" is still a very dangerous profession.

    5. Re:So it's time to drill? by mosb1000 · · Score: 2

      Drilling can be accomplished by a small, direct push rigs, which are usually hauled around in the back of pick-up trucks. But those are only good down to a hundred feet or so. It's hardly what I would call massive infrastructure. Hydraulic_rotary_drilling can also be done by a mobile rig, albeit a much larger one, and can get you down to several thousand feet.

      Nevertheless, if they want to look for life on mars, and mars might have groundwater, they are going to have to drill down to it and collect samples. If they are going to do all that anyway, they might as well be looking into using it for fuel.

    6. Re:So it's time to drill? by CPTreese · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You do realise that manned spacecraft tend to be rigorously tested first? The first moon landing was done by the 11th Apollo craft for a reason, you know.

      Do you realize that everyone came within a hairs breadth of dying on the 13th Apollo mission? Oh yeah, everyone DID die on the space shuttle challenger AND Columbia. Also, don't forget the entire Apollo 1 crew died in a fire on the ground. Sure it's tested, but that doesn't mean it's safe.

      There are too many people on Slashdot that disagree just to be contrary

      --
      If there is no God then free will is an illusion.
    7. Re:So it's time to drill? by somersault · · Score: 2

      You do realise that manned spacecraft tend to be rigorously tested first?

      Yes I do. I also realise that people make mistakes, and that even the tiniest mistake becomes a very big deal when you're surrounded by vacuum, with no AAA to dial for help.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    8. Re:So it's time to drill? by mosb1000 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I know you were not being serious, but if they found oil it wouldn't be of any practical value since mars lacks an oxygen atmosphere. On the other hand, it would have a lot of scientific importance because it would mean either that mars had significant quantities of life in the past, or that oil can formed through processes that do not require life.

    9. Re:So it's time to drill? by FTWinston · · Score: 2

      I absolutely realise those things. And all those incidents occurred with extremely rigorous testing. I doubt that there's the political will to send astronauts on an extremely expensive trip, that would be a suicide mission unless a drilling machine works first time on a planet its never been tested on. There'd be enough potential disasters on a manned mars mission without that!

    10. Re:So it's time to drill? by loufoque · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's nothing compared to the amount of russian cosmonauts who died, or probably also the unknown amount of chinese ones.

    11. Re:So it's time to drill? by FTWinston · · Score: 2

      Actually, not being american, I do mean shortsightedness. But I'll say Myopia if that helps.

    12. Re:So it's time to drill? by vlm · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I know you were not being serious, but if they found oil it wouldn't be of any practical value since mars lacks an oxygen atmosphere.

      It would be of immense practical value as a reservoir of organic chems.

      Heres a weird example to think about. If we colonize mars, nothing will be painted. All plain bare metal. Why? No organic compounds and solvents to spare to make paint, and filtering paint solvents out in the air handlers is a PITA anyway. No problemo you say, we'll just power coat everything, powder coat is made out of plastic which is made out of ... Err, we'll make everything interior out of aluminum and anodize it, you just anodize aluminum and dip it in hyperconcentrated organic dyes, and those dyes are made out of ... Hmm. All those sci-fi sets with great paint jobs are just not gonna happen, are they?

      The best artsy craftsy idea I can come up with is ceramic enamel jobs done with solar powered rock grinders and solar powered kilns. But again, put up a solar powered artsy kiln and someone is gonna whine that it should be PV cells instead of a kiln at the focus...

      Technically you could turn your olive oil into paint given a huge energy intensive chemical plant, but wouldn't you rather ... eat? I'd rather spend the kilowatt hours and Kg of carbon on a nice beef steak than a nice paint job. Hmm.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    13. Re:So it's time to drill? by RivenAleem · · Score: 5, Funny

      There are too many people on Slashdot that disagree just to be contrary

      Oh no there isn't.

    14. Re:So it's time to drill? by vlm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Check your math. Your own link lists 18 dead, and 529 people "in space", for some strange value of "in space". Plenty of "astronaut" job title holders don't technically get in space, or don't get a mission assigned at all.

      That's not even a tenth as dangerous as being a German U boat sailor in WWII.

      Loggers "score" 55 deaths per 100K workers per year on the job, as of 2009. However that's a pretty broad category, including picker crane operators whos main danger is hypothermia from sitting around all day, the truck loader guys who mainly have to worry about getting run over; for the guys actually waving chainsaws in the air on a regular basis, the number is about 10 times higher.

      I'd say that further research indicates I was wrong, overall an astronaut is "about" as likely to die on the job as a logger. However, note there are a couple orders of magnitude more wounds and permanent non-fatal maiming accidents that deaths in logging, and astronauts pretty much either don't get a scratch or they die, so assuming the only danger is death, and only death, skews the results quite a bit. If your criteria for dangerous is "any permanent severe career limiting damage" then I believe I was originally correct, logging is way more dangerous.

      About a third of Mt Everest climbers die enroute. Now that, is dangerous.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    15. Re:So it's time to drill? by kubernet3s · · Score: 2

      He wasn't being contrary. He was originally making a point about how it would be risky to send a manned mission to mars banking on the presence of liquid water as a source of jet propellant. Somersault saw the words "risk my life" and thought "HA! You're not risking YOUR life, you pansy, chunkity assed nerd! The astronauts are, and they'll bet their life on any long shot, no matter how suicidal it might be: they strap rockets directly to their asses and say to hell with procedure, let's do this! Those boys are heroes! Semper fi! Aughghhhhh!" or something else similarly ripe for parody, and FTWinston responded with a fairly calm, if slightly broad and a little hot, rebuttal, reinforcing his initial point that, basic risk aside, we must take every precaution with the lives of astronauts before we send them on any mission, particularly one as ambitious as a manned Mars mission. Somersaults comment may have been idle, but was flippant in a way which degrades the dialogue.

      What has actually happened, is that someone suggested the possibility of maybe having astronauts wear seatbelts, then everyone started acting like he punched a veteran.

    16. Re:So it's time to drill? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      31% of all astronauts have died in the process (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronaut#Deaths ). I haven't looked up statistics for logging and farming, but I'd be really surprised to find it was so high.

      Please show your math. According to your own citation, there have been around 520 astronauts (depending on your definition of astronaut) and 29 deaths during spaceflight or training. My math says about 5.6%. I'll bet that's pretty comparable to a fishing or logging job, while being a log more rewarding.

      Also, please note that the above definition of astronaut does not include the hundreds of astronauts in perpetual training who have not yet flown (and now probably never will fly) a space mission.

    17. Re:So it's time to drill? by kelemvor4 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Check your math. Your own link lists 18 dead, and 529 people "in space", for some strange value of "in space". Plenty of "astronaut" job title holders don't technically get in space, or don't get a mission assigned at all.

      That's not even a tenth as dangerous as being a German U boat sailor in WWII.

      Loggers "score" 55 deaths per 100K workers per year on the job, as of 2009. However that's a pretty broad category, including picker crane operators whos main danger is hypothermia from sitting around all day, the truck loader guys who mainly have to worry about getting run over; for the guys actually waving chainsaws in the air on a regular basis, the number is about 10 times higher.

      I'd say that further research indicates I was wrong, overall an astronaut is "about" as likely to die on the job as a logger. However, note there are a couple orders of magnitude more wounds and permanent non-fatal maiming accidents that deaths in logging, and astronauts pretty much either don't get a scratch or they die, so assuming the only danger is death, and only death, skews the results quite a bit. If your criteria for dangerous is "any permanent severe career limiting damage" then I believe I was originally correct, logging is way more dangerous.

      About a third of Mt Everest climbers die enroute. Now that, is dangerous.

      Pardon my error, you are correct. It's only 3.4%

    18. Re:So it's time to drill? by Canazza · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Also, remember, the first Apollo missions were unmanned. They sent an unmanned probe further than they sent their first manned mission. Add onto that the fact that when they DID send people up, they didn't send idiots up.
      On the topic of Mars, we've already landed there, but there's generally been no reason to return those probes so it's not been planned for.

      We KNOW we can get there, the next stage towards a manned mission will be figuring a way of getting them off the surface and back again. If that means drilling then that adds a whole mess of untested unknowns to work through

      Drilling on Mars is going to be atleast as complex as drilling on Earth and will require more than just the pilot/scientist crew dynamic we're used to in space. For the first time you'd need someone who knows how to handle heavy machinery, since, even when Mars is closest, signals will take 3 minutes to reach them, so you need a specialist on hand in case the shit hits the fan. You'll also need to lug the machinery up there too, and land it. The biggest single piece of machinery we've landed so far has been the LEM + Moon Buggy. A Drill would be ALOT bigger. It would take ALOT Longer to set up too, and would require a degree of self-sufficiency and a factor of safety in their provisions incase of an accident that may prolong their stay.

      And I'm not even an expert. There's bound to be loads of things I've not thought of that needs to be tried and tested before we even think of sending someone to Mars.

      The Astronauts took a risk going to the moon. Hell, it's a risk every time they strap themselves to the gigantic firework built by the lowest bidder. I know I couldn't do it.

      --
      It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
    19. Re:So it's time to drill? by FTWinston · · Score: 3, Funny

      So what you're saying is, we need to send Bruce Willis and a bunch of morons?

    20. Re:So it's time to drill? by Canazza · · Score: 2

      They're behind you!

      --
      It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
    21. Re:So it's time to drill? by dotancohen · · Score: 2

      But unless it had a track record, I'd be wary of risking my life on the assumption that fuel could be extracted.

      I would gladly go to Mars specifically in order to die so that the engineers could learn from the experience and make the trip safer for the next batch of meatsacks.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
  2. Well duh by CyberK · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Since Earth is a lot larger than Mars, and the habitable regions typically lie somewhere near the surface, it's no surprise that a larger proportion of Mars's volume is habitable. (The outer layer of an onion is larger in comparison to the onion when the onion is smaller.) The real question is that of absolute size: How many cubic metres of life-bearing volume is there on Mars in comparison to Earth?

    1. Re:Well duh by FTWinston · · Score: 2

      "Life-bearing" is presumably a relative term - Mars doesn't have plate tectonics, so there's not gonna be enough energy to stand-in for sunlight, like hydrothermal vents might do on Europa. I'd imagine that the only viable life would be rock-eating microbes.

    2. Re:Well duh by tgd · · Score: 2

      I didn't read the article, but it stands to reason that there may be upsides to that, as well. Presumably the core is still hot, even if there isn't active volcanism and plate tectonics, and it would seem reasonable that there could be a wider swath of the crust that may have habitable conditions, because on Earth you'll eventually get too hot and hit the mantle.

    3. Re:Well duh by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 2

      How many cubic metres of life-bearing volume is there on Mars in comparison to Earth?

      Seriously? On this site someone has to ask this? We already have the information we need.

      Volume of Earth: 1083210000000 km^3 (Google it). TFS states 1% is habitable / life bearing.
      Volume of Mars: 163115609799 km^3 (Google it). TFS states 3% is potentially habitable / life bearing

      Divide both by 100 for 1% of each volume, multiply Mars result by 3 for 3% = Earth 10832100000km^3, Mars 4893468294km^3.

      Earth / Mars = 2.2. Earth has 2.2x the habitable volume of Mars.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  3. Enough of the speculation by Hentes · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let's bring back some martian soil, put it in a chamber emulating its atmosphere and climate, mix in some extremophiles and see what happens!

    1. Re:Enough of the speculation by FTWinston · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let's bring back some martian soil and ... contaminate it??? Urgh!

    2. Re:Enough of the speculation by Hentes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not the soil that's expensive, but the delivery.

  4. Original article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    The paper can be found here.

    The slant they're putting on it is slightly different. They've noted that in a large proportion of areas on Earth where there is liquid water there isn't necessarily life, so simply searching for liquid water in space isn't necessarily the best way to go about looking for other life or places which would be habitable: you need to bear in mind other factors as well if you want to narrow it down.

    Terrestrial life is known to require liquid water, but not all terrestrial water is inhabited. Thus, liquid water is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for life...If the known limits of terrestrial life do not change significantly, these limits represent important constraints on our biosphere and, potentially, on others, since ~4 billion years of evolution have not allowed life to adapt to a large fraction of the volume of Earth where liquid water exists

    1. Re:Original article by vlm · · Score: 2

      They've noted that in a large proportion of areas on Earth where there is liquid water there isn't necessarily life,

      Where are you finding this biologically empty, spectrographically pure water on earth? Supposedly a billion humans don't have access to safe drinking water, so there appears to be a demand for some of this stuff... I'm guessing they're talking about fossil aquifers miles below the surface?

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  5. Viking said that it did by WindBourne · · Score: 2

    We need to send a dragon on a mission their to get the facts. I think that one with a couple of nukes inside would be interesting. Even better would be if it had the ability to hop a few places. Perhaps modify it use methane/LOX and then at each landing sites, while science is being done, generate the fuel.

    What I find interesting is that so many ppl want to send ppl on a 2--way mission. Instead, it should be thought of as a 1-way mission and have them go there and stay at least a decade. One of the most important reasons is that Mars DOES have the likelihood of having life. If so, the last thing that we want to do, is bring it back here.

    Basically, the group of ppl would focus on survival, building out a base, and of course science. But much of the work there could be carried out by robotics, with the ppl their to control and fix them. In addition, it would actually be cheaper and safer to do the 1-way.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  6. A few kilometers. by mosb1000 · · Score: 2

    According to NASA, liquid groundwater would probably be a few kilometers beneath the surface of mars. The deepest oil wells are around 9 kilometers deep, so drilling down to it would be possible, as long as you knew where to drill for it.

    1. Re:A few kilometers. by vlm · · Score: 2

      Chicken and the egg situation, hard to bootstrap on Mars. According to my oil relatives in Louisiana, it takes a good barge full of oil or water based drilling mud to fill a hole that deep, and all our current drilling technology on earth relies on that drilling mud to cool and clean the cutting bit which would otherwise approximately instantly jam, overheat, lose its temper/hardness and thereafter fail to cut. Not saying its impossible to make that hole by an entirely new technology, just saying the entire technological infrastructure for doing it on earth relies on an "infinite" supply of oil or water, to make the hole, to get the oil/water outta the hold, to use the new oil/water to make more holes to ... repeat chicken and the egg style.

      I guess you could revisit 1840 or whatever and use old fashioned "spuds" and men in spacesuits wielding shovels, but at a foot or so per day thats gonna take awhile to get the goods.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:A few kilometers. by mosb1000 · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are several types of drill rigs that do not require a working fluid. Probably the best one for this application is a cable tool rig which drops a bit suspend by a cable to break up the rock, and then a bailer to remove the broken rock. This is a very slow process, but depths of 3.7 km have been achieved with it and it doesn't require a drilling fluid so I think it could get the job done.

  7. Apples to apples by flaming+error · · Score: 3, Insightful

    3 percent of the Martian volume could sustain Earth-like microbial life. As a comparison, only one percent of the volume of Earth contains life.

    That's no comparison. Compare % volumes that could sustain life. Or compare volumes that actually do contain life. But comparing one to the other reveals nothing.

  8. A reason by Synerg1y · · Score: 2

    As great as it sounds to start populating Mars, I haven't heard a whole lot on the economics of it, why would anybody want to?

    1. Re:A reason by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's why it's silly for people like Neil Armstrong to posit that private industry will do it first with government "assistance." It'll only happen as a scientific endeavor until the technology is developed enough for someone to monetize trips to Mars (how that would ever happen in the remotely near future is beyond me).

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  9. Percentage of volume? by mattcoz · · Score: 2

    Why did they use this measure? With Mars being so much smaller, of course a higher percentage of the volume would be hospitable. Mars has 15% of the volume of Earth but 28% of the surface area. Just seems like bad comparison.