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NTSB Recommends Cell Phone Ban For Drivers
ducomputergeek writes "According to this AP report, the National Transportation Safety Board says 'States should ban all driver use of cell phones and other portable electronic devices, except in emergencies.' 'The recommendation, unanimously agreed to by the five-member board, applies to both hands-free and hand-held phones and significantly exceeds any existing state laws restricting texting and cellphone use behind the wheel.' So what about all the cars today that come with built-in computers, navigation, internet capabilities, and cell phones?"
You're right, because no passengers should be allowed to talk on the phone either....
What about my docked phone that is playing music? Can I even have it running? Is pressing "next" equal to hitting your in-car stereo's next button?
I completely agree with not allowing non-hands-free talking and especially with texting, but all electronic usage is a bit vague...
-SaNo
I hate to break it to people, techies included, but talking on your phone and driving kills people. Its a pretty well known fact and insurance companies are even charging higher premiums to people who have had a cell phone related accident (more than a normal rate increase). Ultimately this is the states' call, but if it was your kid, significant other, or friend who got killed by someone texting/talking on their phone would you let it go?
Help me, help you. - Jerry McGuire
Talking on the phone and talking to a passenger do not have the same impact on driver attention.
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
We're one step closer to a (very) short range cell phone jammer in cars that jam all cell phone signals inside the car whenever the car is moving at, say, more than 10mph.
Tried to buy one of these, years ago. They're banned. Every time a site pops up selling them assembled or in kit, they vanish shortly afterward. Some funny old FCC thing baring them.
Probably more likely to cause an accident anyway, as the driver on the phone looks at their phone which has lost connection and/or attempts to redial, when they should be watching the road ahead.
I hear so many anecdotal stories about how drivers are perfectly functional and alert when driving and blathering (about what urgent matter, exactly?), but most accidents I see a driver was distracted. Even seen a three vehicle accident in bumper-to-bumper crawl, where the two following drivers were clearly not paying attention.
Banned in California, but I still see a lot of drivers with that slab of plastic pressed to the side of their head as they go down the road. Fines not high enough? Insurance not high enough? Maybe when they put cameras on overpasses to photograph the offending drivers and mail them the tickets. (We already have cameras on intersections for red-light runners.)
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I recognize that someone in Mr. LaHood's position needs to strongly advocate for safety, but his position borders on authoritarian. I listened to an interview with him on Fresh Air (I think) where he basically shouted down anyone who offered a counterpoint to his position and portrayed them all as idiots. The best part was when the final caller claimed to actually be driving while calling and it set him off to the point I thought he was going to ask if they could trace the call.
Just get us self-driving cars already so that this and a number of related problems go away.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
Lesson would seem to be not to text while driving, and definitely don't text while driving in front of multiple school buses with bad brakes.
Wir sind geboren, um frei zu sein - Rio Reiser
According to CNN here: http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/13/us/ntsb-cell-phone-ban/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 the proposal would NOT ban the use of hand-free devices, or passenger cell phone usage.
...or listening to the radio, needing to use the bathroom, or being an asshole in the near vicinity of a car. Of course, this -really- punishes those who have always used hands-free technologies, used their phones responsibly, and drive safely every day. They HAVE to be a problem - because the NTSB says so...
Fines aren't high enough. Make them proportional to income, like they do in Germany. Ha! Imagine Bill Gates III going down I-5 on his phone while at the wheel and receiving a fine for $10 Billion.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
If it's so damned dangerous, why do the cops get a permanent exception?
Spare me the "talking on your phone and driving kills people" sophistry. So does anything else that distracts from driving. Shall we next eliminate cupholders in cars because drinking and driving "kills people", too?
Dog is my co-pilot.
Research has shown that, for most people, talking on cell phones is far more distracting than those other activities. Let's follow the science: if good science says it's dangerous, then let's take the appropriate action.
Good science should be pretty easy. How much did accident rates drop when cellphone bans were imposed?
Oddly, I hear a lot about the evils of cellphone use while driving, but I've never seen a story about how many fewer accidents there are now cellphone use has been banned.
I don't have a problem with expecting drivers to concentrate on driving while... you know... driving, but I'd like to know whether these bans actually work before imposing yet more.
How about we ban other dangerous activities while driving like:
- Changing radio stations
- Putting on makeup
- Reading books or newspapers
- Scolding children in the back seat
- Thumbing through CD wallets looking for CD's
- Eating
Seriously, people have been doing things in their cars that can and have caused accidents, some of them even more utterly ridiculous than using cell phones or texting. Why is this getting so much attention?
We'll make great pets
Seriously, the technology is here to allow for fully autonomous driving. The government just needs to come up with the funding to install all of the sensors and implement regulations that require all manufacturers to include these in ALL vehicles.
Driving is a privelege, not a right. If we want our roads to be truly safe then we should have computers do the driving for us. Again, the technology is here (straight from wikipedia):
Autonomous cars are not in widespread use, but their introduction could produce several direct advantages:
Fewer crashes, due to the autonomous system's increased reliability compared to human drivers[1]
Increased roadway capacity due to reduced need of safety gaps[2] and the ability to better manage traffic flow.[1]
Relief of vehicle occupants from driving and navigation chores.[1]
Removal of constraints on occupant's state - it would not matter if the occupants were too young, too old or if their frame of mind were not suitable to drive a traditional car. Furthermore, disabilities would no longer matter.[3]
Elimination of redundant passengers - humans are not required to take the car anywhere, as the robotic car can drive empty to wherever it is required.[3]
Alleviation of parking scarcity as cars could drop off passengers, park far away where space is not scarce, and return as needed to pick up passengers.
Indirect advantages are anticipated as well. Adoption of robotic cars could reduce the number of vehicles worldwide,[4][5] reduce the amount of space required for vehicle parking,[6] and reduce the need for traffic police and vehicle insurance.
This will not only "eliminate" accidents, but also decrease emmissions, and save money....
Previewing comments are for sissies!
I'm amazed that people are still so passionate about driving themselves to work and so vehemently opposed to public transit. Don't all y'all realize that you could spend your commute time texting and Tweeting and talking and what-not with reckless abandon if you let a professional handle the driving for you?
On top of it, a transit system done right is faster, far cheaper, and much more efficient than one in which single-occupancy multi-passenger vehicles are the norm. Instead of sitting in stop-and-go traffic on the freeway for an hour, you could be in a train doing 100 mph down the median of that same freeway...if only such a train existed.
Don't get me worng. Cars are awesome, and a vital part of any modern transportation system. But the balance of the American transportation system is skewed so far in favor of cars that it's become the most expensive, slowest, most dangerous, most inconvenient, most inefficient transportation system you could design.
Cheers,
b&
All but God can prove this sentence true.
I can't get to the referenced ntsb.gov page but the CNN article states just the opposite. The last line in CNN's article reads: "It would not apply to hand-free devices or to passengers."
The CNN article is simply wrong. The original report and the vastly more detailed CBS article state clearly that the ban would cover all communications uses of electronics.
Cops are above the law, of course.
That's not good science at all. You don't even have a control group.
Studies show that talking on a hands free cell phone is about the same dangerous as holding one in your hand.
Giving the driver the opportunity to pull over and answer a call would also be unacceptable.
Reminds me of the difference between Reasons and Excuse. Humans are, beyond the use of mere tools, distinguished from animals by their ability to rationalise.
Reason: "I was unable to avoid hitting the car in front of me because they suddenly pulled into my lane and slammed on their brakes."
Excuse: "I was unable to avoid hitting the car [I had been following for the past mile] because they suddenly hit their brakes [which I didn't see, because I was in a conversation on my phone] and stopped too fast for me to react."
See the difference? One beyond means to avoid, one within means to avoid. People talk to LEOs, after accidents, like these two are interchangeable.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
If someone's in your front seat, they can see that traffic conditions have changed and know to STFU for a moment, without you having to tell them. Unless they're my ex, then they don't know what STFU means, nor how or when to do so.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Some funny old FCC thing baring them.
Actually, that funny old law is essentially why the FRC (Federal Radio Commission) was formed in 1912, which eventually became the FCC.
See, for you to receive radio transmissions from a tower far away, you need cooperation from all your neighbors. They have to silence any machinery that would cause interference on channels designated for radio.
Cell phone jammers are illegal because they interfere with designated channels for radio transmission. If they were legal, then you would have no way to deal with a neighbor that runs one near your house. That neighbor would legally be able to interfere with your radio, television, wi-fi, cell phone, etc.
I'm not completely sure whether you were being sarcastic or not, but this regulation, honestly, is very important. Without it, we'd pretty much have to rely on wired communication.
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Seeing how 2010 had the lowest number of fatalities, and most of the data I've seen has shown a droping trendline of reduced accidents per vehicle mile driven (your link only shows total fatalities, not fatalities per miles driven), wouldn't that be an indicator that current advances are working and what should be done is minor incremental improvement as needed as opposed to sweeping huge changes?
I mean, if we saw a huge spike coming out of the 90's and a trendline pointing north through the 2000's, I'd be fully behind the efforts to ban all cell phone usage in cars.
But what we see is that the vast majority of people using electronics while driving are doing so in a responsible and safe manner. Sure, we should continue to hammer down on people who are not doing so, but I don't see the need for sweeping changes when things are already going in the right direction.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
Wrong. First of all, people are not very good at identifying how distracted they are. Secondly, your brain has to devote much more attention to processing language from a very low quality source (the phone) than to a very high quality source (the person next to you), leaving the driver paying less attention to driving.
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
The thing is that drivers are distracted whether they have a cell phone or not. The studies done on these kids of things are almost always done with an agenda. A good example of this is with children and particularly babies in the back seat. All of the studies point out that in the event of an accident, children and babies are less likly to be injured if they are in the back seat. Not once did I see any of those studies look at the number of accidents that happened with the child in the back seat as compared to the same number of miles driven with the child in the front seat.
When my son was born, I specifically went out an bought a pickup truck without a back seat. They were the only vehicles that could be purchased where you could turn off the passenger air bags. I have yet to see a parent, and that includes me, that doesn't check on their infant when the child is crying. They are even MORE likely to check on the infant when they are NOT crying. I also have yet to see any human that can safely drive while facing backwards in their car. Those with the Rube Goldberg mirror systems are even worse as they stare intently at the front mirror trying to focus across to small giggling mirrors to see if the baby is OK.
Point being, before deciding to be an anti-social ass by trying to break other peoples things, you should consider whether you are helping the situation, or making it worse.
Besides the fact that bored drivers (although more PC) are just as bad as distracted drivers, I can't take any calls for reduction in distracted driving seriously until they ban the car stereo.
When I was a kid in the 70s, nearly everyone I knew had a CB radio in their cars and trucks (I grew up in a family of truckers in the country). So how are hands-free phones different than CB radios? Actually, CBs aren't even hands free. Is there something different behind the mentality of using a CB radio vs a cellphone? Or was using a CB always dangerous and just not used by as many people? I can't remember any conversations ever about the possible dangers of using a CB radio.
Suppose I put my phone on speaker and then pugged in a mic that had a curly wire and button I pressed to talk, making it basically function like a CB radio. Would the danger level of using it decrease (when compared to using it entirely hands free)?
This is all of course excludes DUI. Those need to be moved to the buses for life, period.
Why should it exclude DUI? Unless you're driving dangerously, it's just as safe as talking on the phone. Probably more so, since if you're a little drunk you're concentrating on driving and looking out for cops, rather than fucking around with your phone and being generally oblivious to your surroundings.
Actually, most research has been very poor science geared toward unfair comparisons.
When a claim is made that talking on a cell is as dangerous as driving drunk. You can almost immediately dismiss the study as junk science. If the premise were true, based on the giant multitude we have talking on cell phones, and the occurrence of accidents amongst drunk drivers, we should all be dead.
When a premise is impossible, or does not live out to reality. Than the science behind it is junk.
A few good research experiments came up with surprisingly different and surprisingly similar results. I recall reading one which had much more realistic results.
1. Driving on a cell phone did prove to be an impairment but with great variation.
2. Simply talking conversationaly bore a very minimal increase over talking to a passenger in the vehicle.
3. Conversing while engaged in complex thoughts (recalling figures, date/times, etc) proved extremely distracting.
4. The effect of phone use varied from person to person. Some found even conversational use to be distracting and have a profound negative influence. Others showed little affect beyond taking to passengers within a vehicle. But all showed profound affects when engaged in complex thought and response.
That study, more than any other I had read, seemed to bear true to my own personal experiences.
Hands free kits do not help, it's the act of holding a conversation with someone you can't see that is the problem.
Using a cell phone responsibly means NOT while driving.
Every study I've heard of shows cell phone conversations while driving to be ball park as dangerous as driving intoxicated. Except of course drunks tend to get hurt less than cell users in an accident.
Mycroft
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
The NTSB website does not say anything about a hands-free exception.
To the 50 states and the District of Columbia:
(1) Ban the nonemergency use of portable electronic devices (other than those designed to support the driving task) for all drivers; (2) use the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration model of high visibility enforcement to support these bans; and (3) implement targeted communication campaigns to inform motorists of the new law and enforcement, and to warn them of the dangers associated with the nonemergency use of portable electronic devices while driving. (H-11-XX)
I actually remember an ad that would air AGES ago about not driving while distracted. That's right, just opposed to allowing yourself to be distracted. It was a radio ad and in it, it described a young woman who ended up rear ending someone because they were too busy fiddling with the radio knob. Another one where someone dropped their cassette in the floorboard and reached down to fish it up again.
I see no practical difference between having a conversation with someone sitting next to me in the passenger seat vs having an earpiece in and having a conversation over my phone or even through one of those cab-audible bluetooth arrangements. And there may be some who oppose having any conversation in the car whatsoever but then that brings up parent's point about bored drivers. Bored drivers are dangerous drivers too. The fact is, driving is dangerous. Quit nannying me and let's just teach the concept of personal responsibility.
OK, I'm going to insert this here, since it's always disappointing to see the delusions in threads like this one and it's about time we had some actual data.
Here's a report (PDF) from the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA) in the UK, published a few years ago around the time we started banning handheld mobile phone use while driving. It cites numerous formal studies. Not all of them reported statistically significant results in all scenarios, but many did and the overall picture is clear. Below are some choice quotations.
Firstly, the bottom line:
Many studies, using a variety of different research techniques, have reached the same conclusions. Using a mobile phone while driving adversely affects driver performance in a number of different ways. It impairs:
Much of the research has assessed using hands-free phones and demonstrates that these still distract drivers and impair safe driving ability, even when driving automatic cars, which are arguably easier to drive than the manual transmission cars predominantly used in the UK.
There is also evidence that using a mobile phone while driving causes greater problems for those drivers who already have a higher accident risk, namely young, novice drivers and elderly drivers.
Next, an example on the subject of denial:
Interviews with nine people who regularly used a hands-free mobile phone for work-related calls while driving revealed that they did not believe that using the phone affected their driving performance because they could adapt their speed or end the call if necessary. However, when they participated in simulated driving tasks of varying complexity on a computer (not a driving simulator) and had to respond to mobile phone calls, their performance was significantly worse during both simple and more complex phone conversations. So, although they did not believe using the phone affected their driving, in reality it did.
It turns out that not all calls are equally distracting, but the difference is not huge:
In another study, 150 subjects observed a video of driving sequences containing situations to which drivers would be expected to respond. Each situation occurred when the subjects were placing a mobile phone call, conducting a simple conversation on a mobile phone, conducting a complex conversation, tuning a radio, and with no distraction. All the distractions led to significant increases in both the number of situations to which the subjects failed to respond and the time it took to respond to them. Complex phone conversations created the greatest distraction and simple conversations the least. The likelihood of a driver failing to notice and respond to a highway-traffic situation ranged from 20% when placing a call or holding a simple phone conversation to 29% for holding a complex phone conversation. Subjects over 50 years old were significantly more likely to fail to respond than younger (17-25 years) subjects.
So how bad is performance while distracted by using a mobile phone? Almost twice as bad as being on the legal drink-drive limit, it seems:
Before the drives, the subjects consumed either an alcoholic drink to take them up to the UK legal drink drive limit of 80 mg/100 ml or a similar looking and tasting placebo drink. During each drive the drivers answered a standard set of questions and conversed over a mobile phone.
On average, drivers’ reaction times were 50% slower when using a hand-held mobile phone than under normal driving conditions, and 30% slower than when under the in
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
http://www.las.illinois.edu/news/2010/phones/
http://www.jhu.edu/news_info/news/home05/jun05/yantis.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12710835
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
There is actually a difference between you talking to someone next to you in the care, versus talking on the phone. While talking to the person in the car, you're still paying attention to your immediate surroundings, passively speaking to the one next/behind you. When you're talking on a cell phone, a large portion of your brain is devoted to paying attention to the 'other world' on the other side of the cell phone, and concentrating at times on that persons voice to hear or understand them on shitty cell connections. Thus, you are more REMOVED from your immediate surroundings while speaking on a cell phone, anywhere. This translate to a very dangerous situation while doing things that demand concentration and attention, such as driving safely.
You (and the folks responding with "yeah, and...") haven't glanced at the data, have you? Talking on a cell phone is NOT like talking to a passenger or listening to the radio or thinking about food. When you're on the phone you're less aware of your surroundings than if you were shitfaced drunk (again, look at the studies).
If you get poor cell phone reception in your office building you've seen the mindless dolts with phones to their ears walking into you, completely oblivious to everything around them. Well, they're affected even more badly when driving.
If you're on the interstate and there's no traffic, yeah, answer your phone, say "I'm driving, what do you want?" and make it short. In town and in traffic? That call will wait; when you park, just call whoever wanted to talk back. There's no excuse for you to threaten my life because you're too god damned impatient to wait five minutes for a phone call.
Odd how an anti-science comment like yours gets a "1, insightful" at a nerd site. The studies say you're not only wrong, but stupidly wrong.
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It's funny you should mention buses because by the sounds of things in TFA it was shared negligence on the part of bus drivers that caused the accident used to justify this recommendation:
The board made the recommendation in connection with a deadly highway pileup in Missouri last year. The board said the initial collision in the accident near Gray Summit, Mo., was caused by the inattention of a 19 year-old-pickup driver who sent or received 11 texts in the 11 minutes immediately before the crash.
The pickup, traveling at 55 mph, collided into the back of a tractor truck that had slowed for highway construction. The pickup was rear-ended by a school bus that overrode the smaller vehicle. A second school bus rammed into the back of the first bus.
Sounds to me like the bus drivers were following too closely, not paying attention or the school districts failed to properly maintain the braking systems on the buses. Perhaps a combination of all three. The initial accident may well have been the fault of texting but the subsequent involvement of the school buses could easily have been avoided. Properly attentive drivers maintain sufficient following distance to avoid becoming involved in an accident that happens ahead of them.
The three second rule would likely have prevented the buses from becoming involved in this accident. Why are there not any suggestions for improved school bus driver training attached to this recommendation?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
The "one hand on the wheel" isn't what makes phones dangerous. The danger is when you're talking on the phone, all you're thinking about is the telephone conversation. It's how the brain is wired.
Do you really think you need two hands on the wheel of a car with power steering? Hell, back when I was a kid 75% of drivers only had one hand on the (non-power steering) wheel, because a cigarette was in the other hand.
Free Martian Whores!
1. Update Trapster about a cop and radar you just passed (not illegal to do)
2. Changing the station on Pandora or switching to a new album to play
Hmm...will it now be illegal for me to use my CB radio? I have a unit that is not handheld, but it isn't mounted so as to be easier to take from car to car as needed...so, is it now a 'portable' electronic device?
Look, we already have perfectly good laws on the books....if you're driving in an impared or reckless manner, they have the ability to pull you over for that.
If you're driving badly, it shouldn't matter what you're doing...and if you're driving ok...leave me the fuck alone.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Two of the superficial things that I REALLY look out for... Handicap license plates and the old people that generally accompany them... and cell phones, whether texting or at the ear. I can't explain why... but my passenger notices it too... If someone is weaving back and forth in their lane, tail-gating, changing lanes without a turn signal, stopping rapidly, turning suddenly, driving too slowly, generally driving inappropriately for the conditions, or generally not giving other drivers notice of their upcoming actions... a cell phone being used is a REALLY good bet. On a bike, all of your inputs have to be dedicated to not getting squished, so you notice these things a lot more when your life really depends on it. In my truck, I personally turn into a moron when I pick up the phone to say "Can't talk, driving." Even holding the phone while it's on speaker is a distraction. I can't say why. Using bluetooth in the truck CAN be distracting depending on the discussion, but I don't notice it so much. Having a conversation on my motorcycle helmet's bluetooth is definitely not something I do around town / on the twisties. This is enough evidence to tell me that I personally am not able to drive/ride as well when I'm on a phone, or even talking on Bluetooth. And I've seen enough to convince myself that people physically holding phones turn into total morons when driving. Or perhaps that most moron drivers just like to talk on the phone. Sure, some people think their cell phones don't impact their driving, but 95% of drivers think they're above-average drivers too. Hang up and drive. Or get a blue-tooth headset. Or a blue-tooth stereo. Whatever. That might still leave you 25% distracted, but it's way better than the simplified version of driving that cell phone users end up when holding it up to their face. "Follow car in front... follow car in front... follow car in front..."
Unless you can provide a link, I haven't seen any evidence that talking to someone on a cell phone is different than in person because "your brain is devoted to paying attention to the 'other world.'"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phones_and_driving_safety#Comparisons_with_passenger_conversation
They reference a study done in the UK: (PDF)
http://www.psychology.nottingham.ac.uk/staff/dec/references/inpress.pdf
Here's the relevant part. It's not that talking is inherently less distracting, but that someone in the car with you will understand if you're suddenly very quietly intent on driving safely, whereas we are ingrained with a much greater sense of urgency when talking to someone on the phone.
We suggest that during normal in-car conversation, both the driver and passenger will suppress conversation when the demands of the road become too great. However, a remote speaker on a mobile
telephone has no access to the same visual input as the driver, and will be less likelyto pace the conversation according to roadway demands
The results are interesting. The number of words spoken in an urban area was almost double for a phone conversation versus with someone in the car. There was also more talking on the phone while on a highway ("dual carriageway"), though by a smaller margin. When driving in an urban area, the remote conversation partner asked MANY more questions than an in-car partner. The amount of conversation was very dependent on the type of road, too, which seems (to me) to support the hypothesis that in-car passengers are aware of (and temper their conversation to reflect) driving conditions, whereas remote conversation partners do not.
Since 1994:
Common cars handle (as in: stop and turn, in that order) far better: Brakes are generally much bigger, drum brakes are far less common, OEM tire compounds have improved, and the FWD layout has grown from the pile of mush that it was into something commonly capable of going 'round a corner (or a person, or an out-of-place vehicle, or...) properly and without undue drama.
ABS has become a normal function instead of an extra-cost item.
Stability control systems have become very common, along with traction control.
Airbag systems have shifted from being somewhat optional to overbearingly-complete during that time.
Crumple zones have improved with advances in applied finite element analysis, CAD, and (I dare say) metallurgy.
Side impact beams have become required equipment.
So, there's lots of things that correlate well with the reduction in fatalities in the timeframe you specified. The obvious rise in cell phone usage over that same period is another data point, to be sure, but I feel that it is pretty weak compared to all that I've listed.
Kid-proof tablet..