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Tech Forensics Take Center Stage in Manning Pre-Trial

smitty777 writes with some updates from Bradley Manning's Article 32 hearing: "Wired has been reporting all [yester]day on the prosecution's technological evidence against Bradley Manning. The first is on the technology and techniques used by Manning. In the second, the examiners admit they didn't find any matching cables on Manning's computer. And finally, evidence that Manning chatted directly with Assange himself." The prosecution was able to access chat logs and other bits of evidence (which had been deleted, but not scrubbed from the disk) thanks to PFC Manning's use of the same password for his OS login and encryption passphrase. Oops.

172 comments

  1. "not scrubbed from the disk" ,"Same password" ?? by zero.kalvin · · Score: 2

    Come one, for a person who do the work he was doing, he have known better! He should only blame himself for these mistakes.

  2. Military vs. Civilian Justice by Sadsfae · · Score: 2

    The military justice system is a whole different world than that of civilians, it will be interesting to see if any of the circumstantial evidence will even matter.

    --
    Have a squat over at the hobo house.
    1. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Xest · · Score: 1

      I was going to ask, in a military trial, does the evidence even matter? Isn't the case basically just decided on by some high ranking military personnel? Is there any law or repercussions that would convince them to give a toss what the evidence says anyway?

      If this was a civilian trial it'd all be rather interesting to hear the arguments and see how they justify the decided punishment in the face of given evidence (or in the face of his unlikely acquittal), but in a military trial I don't think it all even matters does it? If the military has prejudged him to be guilty, and don't care for any outcome other than that then that's what'll happen regardless of the merits of his case no?

    2. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by blizz017 · · Score: 5, Informative

      1. He's not at trial yet; this is an Article 32 hearing.. basically a grand jury hearing/pre-trial. 2. At Trial, he would have a jury of his peers; far more so than you'd find in a civilian courtroom. He's and enlisted soldier, so if his defense team opted, they can have a jury full of enlisted soldiers. 3. Contrary to what you wish to believe; military court martials aren't show trials. I'd argue that they're ultimately far more fair and impartial than you'll ever find in a civilian courtroom where a DA and/or Judge may have a political agenda to fulfill.

    3. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by vlm · · Score: 2

      From having been in the military although not involved in the justice system, there are two reasons why military trials tend toward pointlessness.

      1) Dumb people and addicts and nuts more or less can't get in the military. Most civilian trials, from talking to jury members, tend to involve some level of comedy, like how stupid / arrogant / high did the defendant have to be to think he'd not get picked up by the cops. Easy, trivial, to catch. But the smart military crooks (most stories I heard were about fencing stolen military property) were smart enough that it takes such a huge effort that the evidence is beyond overwhelming by the time they're arrested, there's no way Perry Mason could possibly get the guy free. Most military crooks tended to get caught by being too greedy, underlying substance abuse, or "hurrying up" toward the end of their enlistment, at least in the supply related stories I heard.

      2) No rich people in .mil. Its widely believed that rich people don't do time in the civilian world, because its true. There's no way an enlisted soldier is going to afford OJ Simpson's lawyer. Also an enlisted soldier can donate a little to the correct political action committees, but not enough to matter. Maybe if his dad was an admiral or a general, maybe...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    4. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Xest · · Score: 2

      "Contrary to what you wish to believe;"

      You know, not everyone on Slashdot has their viewpoints set in stone. There are at least one or two of us here still that are capable of taking in new information and changing our viewpoint based on the balance of evidence, rather than posting asserting that some preconceived notion is correct, despite not actually knowing that to be the case with some degree of accuracy.

      I don't know a lot about US military trials, which is why I phrased my post largely as a question, as what I understood to be the case thus far was based largely on previous posts on the subject.

      So to continue the point, what exactly is the goal of this pre-trial, what does it determine? how is the jury of peers decided? is it determined by a genuinely randomly selected set of soldiers? is there any scope for corruption to allow it to effectively become a show trial?

    5. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by wygit · · Score: 2

      I remember Heinlein saying If you're guilty, you're better off in a civilian trial. If you're innocent, you're better off in a military trial.
      From "Starship Troopers", I believe.

    6. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH.

    7. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      Where did you get the idea that this is all a show from? It's as much a trial as it would be in the civilian system. If there is any prejudgement, it's wrong. I can't say whether this exact trial will be fair or not, but it is supposed to be.

    8. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

      I'm not in the military, but found this interesting article that gives details on what you are asking: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/l/aacmartial2.htm

      As for a show trial, all trials are show trials to the extent they are intended to serve as a deterrent to others. From traffic court to murder trials. It's the fairness of the trial you're really wondering about.

      It'll be as fair as any other high-profile case you've ever seen. Which is to say most of those involved know they are being watched and will either be fair (because that's their nature) or at least try to appear fair, but humans screw up. The appeals system helps.

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    9. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      3. Contrary to what you wish to believe; military court martials aren't show trials. I'd argue that they're ultimately far more fair and impartial than you'll ever find in a civilian courtroom where a DA and/or Judge may have a political agenda to fulfill.

      Bradley Manning was held in solitary confinement for almost a year before he was even indicted. How is that consistent with your even handed, non-political picture of military justice?

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      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    10. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The fact that Bradley Manning has suffered almost a year of solitary confinement and only now getting a hearing would lead one to believe that this is all a show.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    11. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      1) You have right.

      2) No, it will not be just enlisted soldiers - there will still be Officers on the jury. He is entitled to have up 1/3 of the jury panel to be enlisted, and I can assure you, they will *not* be his peers. The enlisted soldiers picked by the military will be career NCOs (E-7, E-8, E-9) with a minimum of 15+ years in service. They will not look favorably on his actions... It is a stacked deck honestly.

      3) They can be, but you have to overcome the severe prejudices and ingrained mindsets of the empaneled jury. These are people, who to one degree or another, have held a security clearance or dealt with military secrets, and never let any cats out of any bags. I'll give you a single guess on how they are going to look on it.

    12. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Xest · · Score: 1

      I've had a search and can't find much to answer the question as to why military trials are separate in the first place. Part the reason I assumed military trials were separate was because it meant it allowed the military to deal with things in their own way. As part of this I was under the impression it meant without the need for as much rigour as the civilian system. I've previously heard the reason for this is based on the argument that if you're in a warzone for example, that if you suspect with a high degree of certainty that someone is guilty of some crime, but can't prove it, you still need to be able to deal with them, because not doing so would be too risky in a combat situation.

      Of course I might be wrong, which is precisely why I was intrigued to hear if there are indeed safeguards in place to ensure in a case like this, where there is scope for a proper investigation and trial, that it will indeed be carried out with the same rigour as you would expect in a civilian trial.

      My concern is that if it is indeed the case that the same rigour isn't applied in military trials, then a military trial is simply being used to fit Manning up because they knew full well they couldn't get him in a civilian trial. The precedent for this would of course be Guantanmo, where the idea of military trials was put forward precisely because the US government supposedly knew it had no chance of conviction of most Guantanamo inmates under civilian trials.

    13. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Xest · · Score: 1

      Well, obviously they were questions, so your assertion to the counter is completely false. The fact you see them as negative merely highlights the point that you disagree with my previous view of the situation, and take offence to that.

      But this is really a problem for you to deal with yourself. If you take offence to someone being wrong, and aren't willing to challenge their point, and offer them a chance to reassess their viewpoint before you get angry at them, then you must live a very angry lifestyle. This of course begs the question, if you're so intolerant of other people's viewpoints, then perhaps you're precisely the type of person I was talking about?

    14. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by CarbonShell · · Score: 0

      It is a joke. Just look at the Abu Ghraib trials or others where they were not tried for torture, murder and rape (which they did) but for 'dereliction of duty' or 'illegal discharge of a firearm'.
      They are good 'ol boys and the military will protect them with such a show trial they would usually get a death sentence or at least life.

      But Manning is not a "good 'ol boy", he broke the unwritten rules. And like in some cheap mafia film, he is going down. Preferably with as much publicity as possible. (anyone honestly think he could ever be let go? how long would he survive?)
      They are only trying to get him to confess about the connections with Assange because he is their real target.
      They will not stop from doing whatever possible to pin the tail on that donkey. Not like the military, nor their government, really is an honest bunch that would never fake stuff and lie to get what they want.

    15. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is it inconsistent?

    16. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by das3cr · · Score: 1

      All of the evidence matters. Right now, the Art 32 hearing is just that. It's an assessing of the evidence to see if there is enough evidence to proceed with a trial. The difference being that the procedures, laws and regulations are from the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

      The trial will be fair. All the evidence will be considered.

      --
      Hurricane Island Outward Bound
      OB
    17. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by das3cr · · Score: 1

      It's seperate because he is charged under the UCMJ and not under civilian law or statute. There are a lot of good reasons for this. For example. Commanders maintain good order and discipline within the ranks by administering punishments as laid out under the UCMJ. Non judicial punishments for smaller infractions and Judicial punishments for those infractions that demand it.

      --
      Hurricane Island Outward Bound
      OB
    18. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by das3cr · · Score: 1

      Most likely he was held in solitary for his own benefit. Contrary to what a lot of people want to believe ... most military people don't like traitors.

      --
      Hurricane Island Outward Bound
      OB
    19. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Xest · · Score: 1

      Yes, but you've simply reiterated that they are separate - that much is clear. The question is why are they separate, why can't those infractions be dealt with under pre-existing civilian law and justice systems that everyone else is subject to?

      There's obviously a reason for handling military justice separately, but I'm not clear what it is - as I say, they closest I've found to an explanation previously is precisely so that the military can deal with things more informally, and hence in a more timely manner, but as I say, if that is the case, is that really appropriate for a case that deserves much greater scrutiny? and again, as I say, if that isn't the case then I'd love to better understand the real reason for even having the separate justice systems.

    20. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Fned · · Score: 0

      Most likely he was held in solitary for his own benefit. Contrary to what a lot of people want to believe ... most military people don't like traitors.

      So was the 23 hours a day where he was prevented from going into REM sleep, for an entire year, for his own benefit, or because military people don't like traitors?

    21. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      It is a joke. Just look at the Abu Ghraib trials or others where they were not tried for torture, murder and rape (which they did) but for 'dereliction of duty' or 'illegal discharge of a firearm'.

      No, you're think of the BSG episode where Cally gets 30 days in the brig for murdering a Cylon because the Admiral reduces her violationg to "unauthorized discharge of a firearm". Abu Ghraib didn't involve gunshots.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    22. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by budgenator · · Score: 1

      An Article 32 hearing is a proceeding under the United States Uniform Code of Military Justice, similar to that of a preliminary hearing in civilian law. Its name is derived from UCMJ section VII ("Trial Procedure") Article 32 (10 U.S.C. 832), which mandates the hearing.
      While stating re the prosecution 'no charge or specification may be referred to a general court-martial for trial until a thorough and impartial investigation of all the matters set forth therein has been made', Article 32 currently provides no upper time limit on consequent detention of the accused before trial. ...
      An investigation is normally directed when it appears the charges are of such a serious nature that trial by general court-martial may be warranted. The commander directing an investigation under Article 32 details a commissioned officer as investigating officer who will conduct the investigation and make a report of conclusions and recommendations. This officer is never the accuser, trial counsel (judge advocate prosecutor), nor in the accused's chain of command. This officer may or may not have any legal training, although the use of military attorneys (judge advocates) is recommended and common within service practice. If the investigating officer is not a lawyer, he or she may seek legal advice from an impartial source, but may not obtain such advice from counsel for any party. Article 32 hearing

      is there any scope for corruption to allow it to effectively become a show trial?

      It would seem to me that first Military Officers look at serving on a Courts Martial board as a very serious matter and preform those duties in as faithful a manner as humanly possible, and secondly the absolute last thing anyone in the military wants to have happen is for there to be any reason for an appeal and have this drag out any longer than it has to.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    23. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

      Being held without trial for a year violates his right to a speedy trial. An even-handed, non-political judge following the law in any sense of the word would have dismissed all charges due to the violation of due process.

    24. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

      He has been denied his right to a speedy trial, [i]it is already unambiguously unfair[/i]. There's nothing leading me to believe the court's contempt for due process will stop once the actual trial begins.

    25. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Many of the safeguards that exist in US civilian courts, existed in the Military Courts, well before the civilian's.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    26. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm currently an officer in the United States Air Force, and this is how the UCMJ was explained to us. The UCMJ has the additional purpose of maintaining discipline, along with the usual crimes we think of like rape, murder, and theft. Would civilian law allow for punishing someone who refused the orders of a superior officer (Article 90)? There are all sorts of uniquely military things that the UCMJ addresses, like mutiny (Article 94), misbehavior before the enemy (Article 99), improper use of countersign (Article 101), and in a historical artifact, dueling (Article 114).

      Essentially, the point of the UCMJ is to strike a balance between rights of the accused and the need for discipline (i.e., when a commander gives an order to charge a heavily defended hill because it has an enemy observation point that's calling artillery on the entire offensive, he knows that his unit will do it, even he may be ordering them to their deaths.)

    27. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by budgenator · · Score: 1

      He got 3 hots and a cot, got paid and accrued leave time, Hard labor at United States Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth is going to make that seem like a vacation.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    28. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by budgenator · · Score: 1

      He also had significant access to classified information and allegedly displayed a tendency to spread that information to person without adequate clearance or need to know.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    29. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by das3cr · · Score: 1

      What makes you believe he didn't sleep for a year?

      --
      Hurricane Island Outward Bound
      OB
    30. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by das3cr · · Score: 1

      Indeed ... I foresee him getting a lot of exercise at the USDB ... making little rocks out of big ones for the rest of his life.

      --
      Hurricane Island Outward Bound
      OB
    31. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would also like to add that with how UCMJ works a military member can be punished twice for the same crime. For instance if you were to receive a DUI you could be charged and goto trial in a Civilian Court as well as be brought up on charges under the UCMJ and again punished for the same thing. Its stupid that they apply the UCMJ to cases of this level when there is no time sensitive reason for doing so. UCMJ is just another way of making it easier to punish service members without as much scrutiny because its so much less understood.

    32. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Presumably the could have sent him to Afghanistan as a rifleman for a year. A year in solitary with your own bed and meals constitutes better conditions than elsewhere in the forces. Plus no-one is trying to shoot at you.
      Or worse he could have been sent to serve with one of the other NATO forces that doesn't believe in air conditioning, Pizza Hut on bases and other amenities...

    33. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

      I'd like add one other reason to the other replies: jurisdiction. Civilian courts cover specific territory (a county or state for example). The early US was designed with states as sovereign, not the federal government. But that created a small problem of "under what law do we prosecute those in the military, especially if they aren't even in a particular state?" (for example, a ship far at sea, built in Massachusetts, launched out of New York, captained by a Virginian and crewed by Pennsylvanians. Oh, and a non-citizen defendent) The answer was to create a specific system for the military that spanned states and any other location they might operate. One that ran in parallel, but did not usurp, state civilian courts.

      A pragmatic solution to jurisdiction.

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    34. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no "Hard Labor" at leavenworth or any other military confinement facility. Its all menial tasks at slave wages.

    35. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      A year in solitary with your own bed and meals constitutes better conditions than elsewhere in the forces

      Sleeping naked without bed sheets being woken up every 5 minutes (!)?

      We usually call that torture. But then, I'm not from the US.

    36. Re:Military vs. Civilian Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but now he'll get a fair trial with a jury of the same. Justice!

  3. Hero by roman_mir · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You do realize, that unlike your football and basketball stars, you actually have a real hero, don't you? He is in your prison - a political prisoner, because he dared to challenge the government and its illegal activities.

    1. Re:Hero by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      A hero would have exposed corruption, wrongdoing, etc. and not just released a database hoping others would figure it all out. The hero in this scenario would have no need to be anonymous.

    2. Re:Hero by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 2

      A hero would have exposed corruption, wrongdoing, etc. and not just released a database hoping others would figure it all out. The hero in this scenario would have no need to be anonymous.

      The alleged hero in this scenario was 22 years old at the time of the event. A 22 year old witness to his "brothers" in arms commiting atrocities.

      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    3. Re:Hero by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If he wanted to expose wrong doing he could have forwarded any evidence he had to the appropriate civilian oversight(ie Congress).

      The Congress already knew about it but decided to do nothing.
      The only way to bring justice was to inform the public.

      Also, it is never a crime to report a crime.

    4. Re:Hero by AJH16 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, because heroes leak information on what the government considers sensitive sites that could be vulnerable to terrorist attacks. You have a warped and naive view of what a hero is. Certainly some small amount of the information that came out indicated distasteful activity, however a large portion of it had no possible political purpose other than to try to hurt the US or give "bragging rights". The actions of whoever leaked the documents is not that of a hero trying to protect, but of an arrogant child trying to show off what they could do.

      Even if the goal had been to see what they saw as atrocities stopped, it was not the correct forum to do so by and even if the correct forums had been taken, bragging about it demonstrates the true motivations. I hate corruption and abuse as much as anyone, but that doesn't even make the beginning of an excuse for the vast majority of the type of information that was leaked. What possible whistle is being blown by exposing that many neighbors and "allies" of Iran are secretly terrified of them getting nukes and begging for it to be stopped. All it does is make the situation more dangerous, less likely to be resolved peacefully and accomplishes nothing. There is no point to it.

      The calls to go after Assanage seems foolish to me as he isn't a US citizen and I don't see how US law applies to him, but he could reasonably be considered a person non grata. Whoever leaked the documents however, did so from the US and is an enemy of the US and in fact world peace, whether intentionally or not and should be prosecuted as such. Arguably doing some small amount of good (in the wrong way) does not make up for the huge amount of inexcusable, irresponsible harm which was done.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    5. Re:Hero by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      But he didn't just report what he felt was a crime. He reported what he felt was distasteful and he also reported many things which were completely irrelevant to an entity known to have an ax to grind with the US. The fact that he leaked documents that have no wrongdoing and serve to destabilize not just US interests, but world stability as well and then was bragging about it reveal the true nature of whoever leaked the documents. Either it was Manning or it was someone who intentionally tried to frame Manning. In either case, the perpetrator was clearly no hero and had nobodies "best interest" in mind other than their own ego.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    6. Re:Hero by couchslug · · Score: 1

      He's not more than an attention whore who could have, as any G.I. who has had access to even low-level classified knows, pursued his agenda via legal channels over time and built a case if his evidence was sufficient.

      That appears to have been too much work compared to doing a data dump.

      He violated tregulations. That was an adult choice.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    7. Re:Hero by AdamJS · · Score: 1

      You really think he would have even had the time to have scoured the cables?

    8. Re:Hero by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A hero would plead guilty and say he did it. Not hide and say he has gender issues.

    9. Re:Hero by miro2 · · Score: 1

      Whoever leaked the documents however, did so from the US and is an enemy of the US and in fact world peace

      So do you believe that the editorial staff of the New York Times should be prosecuted as enemies of the US? They are the ones who actually published the leaks in the US, not Manning.

    10. Re:Hero by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      The actions of whoever leaked the documents is not that of a hero trying to protect, but of an arrogant child trying to show off what they could do.

      Sounds like you've already made up your mind.
      If you read the chat logs, you'll discover that Manning says why he's leaking this stuff, and "arrogant child trying to show off" isn't really in the cards.

      But carry on. Don't let facts get in your way.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    11. Re:Hero by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      SuperKendall did a great job of explaining it, but I will too. The fact is that the NY Times simply brought to light what had been leaked. The information was already publicly available and distributing the type of information that was released to the US population isn't really a risk. The risk is that the information was already out there for people who wanted to find it. All the NY Times did was bring that fact to light.

      The one who actually does the leaking is responsible. In the case of the list I mentioned, Manning is accused of leaking the actual information initially and he did it through a proxy (wikileaks). Until wikileaks released it, it was not public information. If the NY Times had been the first to let the list of sensitive sites in to public knowledge, then yes, I would argue that they were being irresponsible and an enemy to US interests unless they had some good reason why the information needed to be released. Since wikileaks acted as a proxy for the whistle blowing, they should have acted to ensure that the information being leaked was not harmful, as should have the original source of the leaked material. To not do so is irresponsible.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    12. Re:Hero by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      I will re-read the chat logs, but my impression of them on first read was that the fact the conversation even occurred in the first place was looking for a pat on the back. Either way, even if that part of the argument isn't valid, the fact remains that he was irresponsible in the type of information released. It was at best criminally negligent while committing a crime and at worst willfully harmful. Either way, it disqualifies him from even remotely resembling a hero working on his ideals.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    13. Re:Hero by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      Oh, I perhaps see what you were thinking after I re-read my post. What I meant by that line was referring to someone in Manning's position. Not someone who reprints it. I try to avoid saying Manning did it though as he is accused and not yet convicted. I don't know the evidence against him and am not in a position to stipulate that he did or did not actually leak the information. Prosecuting someone for the leak however is certainly more than fair and not going after a hero, but rather a criminal.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    14. Re:Hero by Mitreya · · Score: 1
      Yes, because heroes leak information on what the government considers sensitive sites that could be vulnerable to terrorist attacks.

      Any idiot could figure this out. There are too many sensitive sites, most of which cannot well protected. You sound like a shill.

      I hate corruption and abuse as much as anyone, but that doesn't even make the beginning of an excuse for the vast majority of the type of information that was leaked.

      Interestingly, some people (even you) recognize that some of the information was leaked for a good cause and should not have been classified in the first place. Do you feel that people who classified information on purpose to hide corruption need to be punished as well? Or just the leakers?

      . Arguably doing some small amount of good (in the wrong way) does not make up for the huge amount of inexcusable, irresponsible harm which was done.

      Citation please. I think you got the situation in reverse. The leaks have certainly done some good. There is plenty of evidence. In contrast, even the official US reports have trouble identifying and proving actual (huge) amount of inexcusable and irresponsible harm. It isn't clear that the leaks actually directly harmed anyone. The material in question was low-priority classifies stuff.

    15. Re:Hero by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      Any idiot could figure out what vulnerable sites are if they did a lot of surveying and went looking to figure out where things are, what isn't sufficiently guarded, etc, but that kind of recon is going to draw attention. Letting someone shortcut that process has no possible benefit and can only cause problems.

      I don't know if I would agree that the people who classified distasteful information should be prosecuted necessarily, so long as those responsible for the actions were prosecuted. I can see the reason why someone wouldn't want word to get out that something bad happened and wouldn't mind it being kept quite so long as if it did see the light of day, it would appear that appropriate actions were taken. If appropriate actions were not taken, then yes, measures should be taken to a) punish those who should have been punished, b) punish those whose responsibility it was to punish those in category A and c) measures should be developed to protect against how the problem occurred in the first place.

      As for your last point, harm is not always advertised and not always tangible. At a minimum, the political issues that arose out of it regarding Iran and the fact it publicly backed them in to a corner in the region helped nobody and could yet cause catastrophic harm. Do you really want nukes in the hands of a regime that now knows that everyone around them doesn't like them and that also supports terrorists? What happens if they get twitchy? What about any sources that may have been compromised and killed for doing what they felt was the right thing? The simple fact is that the onus is on the leaker to ensure that only the information pertaining to wrong doing is released. No amount of good on the leaker's part can make up for the bad. Is the world better or worse overall for the leak? I don't know and we will likely never know, however what I do know is that the bad could have been mitigated and it was the leaker's responsibility to do that. He didn't, therefore, it anything at all bad that happens as a result is directly on him.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    16. Re:Hero by Mitreya · · Score: 1
      Ok, you don't seem to be a troll, so let's continue

      Any idiot could figure out what vulnerable sites are if they did a lot of surveying and went looking to figure out where things are, what isn't sufficiently guarded, etc, but that kind of recon is going to draw attention.

      Maybe you and I differ on definition of "vulnerable site". Are you talking about poorly defended military bases? Because to me obvious vulnerable sites are bus/train stations. Any tall building during business hours, most of them aren't guarded. Also, since ridiculous TSA security was introduced, any long line of people waiting to be scanned or inappropriately groped in the airport presents a sensitive target with no safeguards. Should I keep listing? All of those can be reconned without drawing attention

      I can see the reason why someone wouldn't want word to get out that something bad happened and wouldn't mind it being kept quite so long as if it did see the light of day

      Oh, I can see the reason alright. I just thought that classifying things to hide them is not permitted, at least in theory. So you are basically ok with classifying things as long as someone decided that the information is best hidden, regardless of whether the information in question meets the definition of "classified"? That may be the source of our disagreement.

      a) punish those who should have been punished, b) punish those whose responsibility it was to punish those in category A and c) measures should be developed to protect against how the problem occurred in the first place.

      I believe we observe part-C happening right now. Except for the government/military the problem is that the leak had occurred and that they may need to do part-A and part-B. And now that Manning had been held in a solitary over a year while occasionally stripped nude and woken up every few minutes under the guise of "suicide watch", it may be a while until the next leaker. Do you really, honestly think that any effort has been put into part-A and part-B of your plan above? If I saw that happening, I may be more inclined to believe that someone is trying to do the right thing. All I see is Manning being punished to prevent the next leak of inappropriately classified documents

      Do you really want nukes in the hands of a regime that now knows that everyone around them doesn't like them

      I think they already knew that :)

      What about any sources that may have been compromised and killed for doing what they felt was the right thing?

      You are talking hypothetical. What about the third world war that could have been caused by the leaks? I have no doubt that if there was such a killed source then it would have been public by now. Granted, there could be unknown damage, so I am not dismissing your point. However, I don't believe there has been easily traceable direct damage. If there has been, it would be publicized by now (I imagine that revealing the name of the already killed source would not violate secrecy).

    17. Re:Hero by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      And yet he produced no evidence of these atrocities. Instead we hear about what diplomats think about world leaders. He didn't go searching for evidence of these atrocities he just grabbed a bunch of files and hoped there was something hidden inside them that was worthwhile.

    18. Re:Hero by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      The listing I am talking about as vulnerable sites is the one described here "http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/12/06/eveningnews/main7123658.shtml." It is a listing of sites deemed critical to our infrastructure that are currently under-protected and open to attack. Determining at least a fair number of those locations would be non-trivial. I see no possible benefit in their release and only possible harm. I would also agree that much of the recent TSA regulation is ridiculous. Body scanners do nothing meaningful to make us more secure since a hijacking is no longer possible due to the changed social climate and a bomb could be concealed the same way drugs are smuggled (internally) and would defeat the body scanners entirely.

      As for classification, the definition of what should be classified is anything that would hurt our national interests if released. This could include things that would put us in political hot water with foreign powers. The key is that classification should not be used to avoid justice. As long as legal requirements are filled and remedial action is taken, then I have no problem with something being kept secret if it is reasonable to assume that it would lead to harm coming to US interests. I think some things in the leaks may have been misclassified, but it is hard to tell without all the details that were available to those making the classification. I think this was probably a minority of the information from the general gist I got of the information. (I will admit I didn't go looking in to the whole situation to deeply, I mostly looked at the most pertinent information mentioned by summaries.)

      As for the a,b,c things. I don't think that remedial action is being taken in this case, but I think that is in large part due to how ineffective the leak actually was. Politically, the excess leaked information allowed any actual issues to be ignored as public outrage was directed (and justifiably I would argue) at the information that shouldn't have been leaked. Had the leak been more targeted, public outrage would have instead been about the objectionable issues and we might have seen some results. I would agree there are issues of corruption and that we don't see what I outlined occurring in many situations. I just don't think the leaks did anything to help with that and you effectively agreed with me in your response.

      As for Iran, I'm sure they did internally, but the way politics is played, you can only overtly react to what is public knowledge. The internal politics were probably much more to portray them as a beacon of leadership in the area within their country. Making the attitude of the neighboring states public knowledge forces them in to a corner of how they can maneuver and puts them on the defenses. The cables were effectively a diplomatic and political nuke being dropped on Iran.

      And yes, my last point is hypothetical. I will grant that. The point I was just trying to make is that in many cases there is absolutely no value added in the release. That makes even a hypothetical possible harm to be enough reason not to release it. If you are going to go against the law as a whistle blower and release a document which has even the slightest shred of a possibility of harming someone in any way, you better be damn sure that there is a benefit to releasing it. I don't see any benefit at all in many of the documents that were released and that is my core problem. Also, even if someone had been killed, they wouldn't reveal the name. You never confirm or deny anything in intelligence. This is the exact same reason that you don't have names on the stars for CIA agents killed in the line of duty. The reasoning is simple. Say you have informant 1 in hostile country b. Hostile country B arrests and executes someone they thing is informant 1. If you then don't release something with their name saying they were killed, they now know that informant 1 wasn't the person they executed and keeps looking. If you admit it, they now have confirmation they were right and can use it as political leverage. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't, so the only option is not to play and keep the info secret forever.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    19. Re:Hero by Troed · · Score: 1

      And yet he produced no evidence of these atrocities.

      Really?

      Wow. You must get your information from completely different places than I do.

      "While this week marks the one-year anniversary since the US formally ended military operations in Iraq, a diplomatic cable exposed by WikiLeaks unearths a gruesome incident in which Americans handcuffed and executed children during a 2006 raid.

      An uncensored diplomatic cable released through WikIleaks last week shows that not only did US troops brutally execute 11 Iraqis during an incident in March of 2006, but they then ordered in an airstrike to destroy the evidence of their wrongdoing."

      "The cable shows that the UN official was able to receive information from the autopsy of those killed, which revealed that each person in the house during the raid was handcuffed and shot in the head, including five children under the age of 5 years old and four women, one in her 70s."

      http://rt.com/usa/news/wikileaks-iraq-children-killed/

    20. Re:Hero by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

      however a large portion of it had no possible political purpose other than to try to hurt the US

      Ahh, that's why he intentionally wanted it to be delivered into the public domain, instead of selling it to US enemies. Because he wanted to hurt the US. >.>

      Even if the goal had been to see what they saw as atrocities stopped, it was not the correct forum to do so by and even if the correct forums had been taken

      Like when he was told to investigate some Iraqis who were arrested by the Iraqi police, and after investigation determined that the "crime" committed was a scholarly critique of the Iraqi PM titled "where did the money go?", told his commanding officer about it, and his commanding officer told him "STFU and help the Iraqi police detain more Iraqis". When your CO tells you to piss off, what do you do? "Oh well, they're just innocent people being imprisoned, fuck 'em"? >.>

      What possible whistle is being blown by exposing that many neighbors and "allies" of Iran are secretly terrified of them getting nukes and begging for it to be stopped.

      What possible whistle is being blown when he releases the Collateral Murder video? What possible whistle is being blown when he releases cables that detail the extravagant lifestyle of the former ruler of Tunisia?

      Whoever leaked the documents however, did so from the US and is an enemy of the US and in fact world peace, whether intentionally or not and should be prosecuted as such

      Whoever improperly classified the documents is an enemy of the citizens of the United States and in fact world peace, by virtue of enabling such travesties as Tunisia to continue unabated. And yet there is no prosecution for those who improperly classify documents.

      For that matter, NONE of what Manning allegedly leaked was Top Secret; zip, zilch, nada. What happens when the President has actual Top Secret material leaked to the press (e.g. bin Laden raid details)? That leaker should be punished just the same (or worse) as the leaker of the cables, because the information had not been declassified yet. The President does not have carte blanche to leak material that is still classified, it must first be declassified.

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    21. Re:Hero by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see how you got worked up about this, but your vision of 'world peace' doesn't correspond with mine.

      If you want to stick your head in the sand, keep information and truth buried - to arrest and villify those who would see us otherwise (for whatever personal reasons) - all so we and our neighbours can feel safer and perhaps stand more readily behind your american flag, touting ourselves as bringers of peace, then our ideas of world peace or the path to peace do not overlap. Thats 'peace' at the end of a sword.

      Democracy requires checks and balances, and it's obvious our institutional ones are not working. Democracy benefits from people like Manning and organisations like Wikileaks because we (the people, the 99%, whatever) now have the ability to scrutinise and police our government.

    22. Re:Hero by mistiry · · Score: 1

      As you so kindly pointed out....

      arrogant child

      Means your view of whomever is that they are of immature mind. I am not making excuses or publicly taking sides, as I really don't have the time or energy to argue with /. either way, but in my view, if Manning is found guilty, shouldn't there be at least some consideration for the fact that at 19 or 20 or however old he was at the time he may not have understood fully the implications of his actions?

      Perhaps securing or shielding such sensitive information from these "arrogant children" until a more appropriate age and maturity is reached is a good start.

    23. Re:Hero by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      That isn't my definition of world peace at all. My definition of world peace is the same as yours, but I am a realist. We live in an imperfect world and there are going to be abuses. As long as those abuses are addressed and dealt with in a way that would seem fair if brought to light, then I see know reason why it should be someone's duty to spread the information. If it is not addressed, then I do believe it would be the moral responsibility of someone discovering such action to seek to have it remediated through the proper channels and only as a last resort publicly expose it, and only with the greatest care to ensure no harm could possibly come to innocent bystanders.

      It would seem that some instances of unpunished abuse may have been reported in the leak, but we have no way of knowing what actions may have been taken after the fact that were not leaked. Also, in this case, a number of conditions don't appear to have been met. Outside of talking to his immediate supervisors, I am not aware of any other avenues being pursued, which is hugely jumping the gun to go to a leak. The information leaked was not targeted, and much of it did nothing to support the issue he was trying to point out. It was not responsibly selected to highlight the issues and instead was a deluge of information that only served to destabilize relations rather than bring any injustice to light. I am not talking about the information that would have composed a valid leak had all other options been exhausted to expose corruption and abuse, but rather the information that had no strongly justifiable relation to the offenses. Whistleblower status would not protect for this kind of carelessness with a leak.

      I agree that people need to be able to scrutinize the government, I would agree that classification is probably overused, I would agree that responsible whistleblowers are a vital part of a smooth running democracy. All I don't agree on is that Manning, if guilty, was a responsible whistleblower, that many of the documents leaked in question that were unrelated were improperly classified or that certain leaked information was beneficial to the people of the US or the world. (I would in fact argue that some of it did no good and considerable destabilizing harm (the private opinions of middle easy governments towards Iran as expressed to the US))

      --
      AJ Henderson
    24. Re:Hero by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      That's a tricky question. Just because someone acts like a child doesn't make them one. It's hard for me to tell how he should be sentenced if found guilty without knowing more about his motivations (which will hopefully come out clearly in trial). If he seems to have genuinely believe in what he was doing and simply took irresponsible shortcuts and jumped to far without trying other options, then I would want to see him more leniently sentenced as I don't think someone's life should be thrown away for pursuing what they thought was the right thing, even if they were foolish and incorrect.

      If I even got a hint of a whiff that it was his ego leading him to do it though, I would want fairly firm sentencing. The real question would be did he jump the gun from talking to superior straight to massively over leaking as an ego boost or because he was simply a foolish and irresponsible idiot. I'd have no problem seeing him go away for life if it was for an ego boost, but if he was genuinely just an idiot, I have a hard time seeing it as fair to sentence him for more than 10 to 20. Luckily it isn't my call to have to try and make. I think it would be a difficult one, both to determine what is just and to deal with the political firestorm sure to ensue whichever way the decision is made.

      --
      AJ Henderson
  4. Real insanity! by aglider · · Score: 1

    Anything into a computer is a file. Which can be created, deleted and changed at your will.
    Do you really think you can put someone in jail because of a bunch of files in his computer?
    Ah!

    --
    Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
    1. Re:Real insanity! by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      Yes, yes I do. Because your statement seems to show a great lack of understanding of digital forensics. Great care is taken to ensure and verifiable prove that the data is not altered from the state it was when the system is taken in. There must still be a reliable link made to indicate that the files were created by the individual and not by a third party, but the files are significant evidence if they can be linked to him.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    2. Re:Real insanity! by aglider · · Score: 1

      Forensics is done by people.
      The same people that looks for evidences can create them, alter them.
      And I'm not talking just about "digital forensics". Anything can be altered, created or deleted. Forever.
      By mistake, bug or on purpose. It doesn't really matter.
      With digital forensics it's just way easier.
      I can seize your hard disk, I put some porn in it, I create the browsing history, the temporary files, the antivirus scanner logs, the system logs for an USB medium insertion and removal, the thumbnails etc. etc.
      How can you prove you were not watching porn on your PC?
      It's all about "trust". The forensics people have more than you have. And it doesn't mean they deserve it.
      But the judge will likely believe them more than you.

      --
      Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
    3. Re:Real insanity! by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      Ok, if you want to assume that the entire system is corrupt and the police will outright fabricate stuff en-masse. Then yes, but it is no more of a problem than anything else at that point. They could take whatever they need from you to prove something or just outright lie about it if they really wanted to screw you over. The first thing that happens is images are taken under chain of evidence and then only those images are used for forensic analysis. Unless the guy doing the imaging and the guy doing the analysis decide to work together and break chain of evidence, you're ok and if they are working together, it doesn't matter if it is physical or electronic, you're screwed.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    4. Re:Real insanity! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Braddly Manning is a REAL HERO, and the more 'they' make him suffer, the more of hero he will become.. thereby encouraging others..

      He is a 'real' man.. and 'real' good citizen of the world.

      He is so, because he steped-out-of-line.. and out-of-the-script.. and showed EVERYONE, especially 'The Man'.. who the boss is.

      HE will win, WE WILL WIN.. because the losers, (The so-called self appointed, scum, 'Authorities'), will continue to be delusional, and live-their-little-script, of what the world, and Freedom, means to them.

      --- The InterNet is a terrible thing to waste, so let's arrest Bill Gates, and shut down MicroSoft immediately

  5. Not so fast... by neokushan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    From the first article...

    In those chats, Manning told Lamo that he had “zero-filled” his laptops, referring to a way of securely removing data from a disk drive by repeatedly filling all available space with zeros. The implication from Manning was that any evidence of his leaking activity had been erased from his computers. But Shaver’s testimony would seem to indicate that either the laptops weren’t zero-filled after all, or that it had been done incompletely.

    So Manning certainly knew about this kind of thing, but either didn't do it or didn't do it correctly. I wonder how difficult it is to mess something like that up?

    --
    +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    1. Re:Not so fast... by vlm · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Or he most certainly did, or at least he set up an automated system to do it, etc.

      But, no one can/will publicly admit the truth, that either the automated system to do that can be selectively remotely subverted on command (perhaps a routine investigation into him "fishing expedition" found more than expected?) OR the secret truth that cannot be discussed is that classified data recovery operations can read overwritten data much better than public recovery operations.

      Most likely this is one of those "lawyers approach the bench" undocumented moments where both sides were informed that public discussion of these classified projects in this trial will be prosecuted, etc... The less this seemingly important topic is discussed during the trial, the more likely they're covering up some interesting technical means.

      Having worked in a Army reserve unit in the early 90s in an IT-like capacity, we were told if we were overrun, the ammo depot's records had to be wiped by thermite, not "writing zeros" or whatever. This is public knowledge, read the public TMs. There is probably a very good reason when going up against "the bad guys" you only trust thermite, and going up against internal investigators and auditors, "trust us, writing zeros is good enough"

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:Not so fast... by jimicus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So Manning certainly knew about this kind of thing, but either didn't do it or didn't do it correctly. I wonder how difficult it is to mess something like that up?

      Extremely easy.

      Any modern operating system uses swap space - and while there's usually a way to ask the OS never to swap a program out, it's seldom exposed to the user. It normally relies on the program itself requesting this, and not everything will. Though a program may be exited later, the area of swapfile it used to use is not necessarily freed from disk.

      On top of that, a few programs (eg. Gimp) deal with their own memory management to a certain extent and so operate their own swap independently of the OS - they may also keep other temporary files floating around and don't always delete them. Or they may not save a file in the way you expect - when you hit "save", it's not unusual for a program to:

        - Create a new file.
        - Dump the data into the new file.
        - Rename the old file.
        - Rename the new file so it has the same name as the old one.
        - Delete the old file.

      This drastically reduces the risk of the app dying part way through the save process resulting in a corrupted file. It may result in a file that hasn't been saved, so some work may be lost, but it won't lose the lot. Of course this has the side-effect that there's an old file sat on the disk somewhere containing much the same data.

      On top of that, very small files will be stored directly in the MFT on Windows. Now the size of file we're talking about is probably not big enough to contain any serious information, but it may well give a forensic investigator a clue as to what's been done.

      I can think of a few scenarios in which Manning could easily mess up:

      1. Several "secure delete" utilities offer the option to securely delete individual files. Which they will, but as discussed above that may not achieve much.
      2. Using a tool to wipe all free space - these usually work by creating a file and filling it with zeroes until the OS eventually returns a disk full error, then deleting the file. I have no idea what - if anything - they'll do with any data still sitting around the MFT. Not to mention the fact that they won't help if there's any incriminating files sitting around that weren't deleted in the first place - and as we've established, it's quite possible for an application to do this totally invisibly to the end user.

      Realistically Manning would need to run DBAN or something similar on the entire disk. This will wipe the OS, so the affected computer would need to be reimaged.

    3. Re:Not so fast... by alen · · Score: 1

      when i worked for Uncle Sam the only sure way was to scrub the hard drive with wire brushes. a lot of the people that worked on Top Secret data would do that to their old hard drives when getting rid of old computers. for less sensitive data the standard was five complete passes over a hard drive to flip the bits. once or twice and a pro can still get data off it.

    4. Re:Not so fast... by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      there's usually a way to ask the OS never to swap a program out, it's seldom exposed to the user.

      This is why I don't use PuTTY's pageant on windows without disk encryption. It specifically states in it's faq that even with the functions it has available, it cannot guarantee that windows won't swap it to disk.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    5. Re:Not so fast... by guruevi · · Score: 1

      BS. Even if you just flip the bits twice (once to 0, once to 1) the data is virtually unrecoverable. There is not a single disk recovery company that can recover a deleted disk. Also, scrubbing with brushes would require you to open it and the particles you release by scrubbing the plates may be dangerous to your health. Use a magnet, fire or thermite.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    6. Re:Not so fast... by Alranor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Having worked in a Army reserve unit in the early 90s in an IT-like capacity, we were told if we were overrun, the ammo depot's records had to be wiped by thermite, not "writing zeros" or whatever. This is public knowledge, read the public TMs. There is probably a very good reason when going up against "the bad guys" you only trust thermite, and going up against internal investigators and auditors, "trust us, writing zeros is good enough"

      Of course, that might have something to do with the fact that zeroing out the hard drives takes a not insignificant amount of time compared with just blowing them up. I've never been in the military myself, but I would hazard a guess that you might be under some time pressures if your base is being overrun by the enemy.

    7. Re:Not so fast... by lambent · · Score: 1

      see, the thing is, that later on in the article the general incompetence of the systems support people is discussed. i mean, they have 11TB of shared drive space so employees can share movies and music, but they don't have enough space on their servers to keep adequate logs of activity.

      frankly, occam's razor applies, here. the reason you were told not to trust writing zeros is probably because the likelihood that you'd've screwed it up was too high. which is probably what happened to bradley manning.

      also, writing zeroes takes a long time. thermite is much, much faster.

    8. Re:Not so fast... by VortexCortex · · Score: 2, Informative

      The magnetic data is analog.  so, it's less 1's and 0's than 1.0031 and 0.073...
      Overwriting with zeros could leave some evidence of the previous data eg (w/ a 1/100th retention: 0.010031 and 0.0073).
      Amplify those by 100 and you get back your 1.0031 and 0.073.  It takes a very sensitive head, multiple reads, and a totally different drive enclosure, but you get the basic idea.

      So, what if you write over the data with pseudo random noise? That's better, but not quite good enough.  The problem is that we know what the "top layer" of data is, so we can subtract out that layer of noise.

      Eg: Let's say we have a multiple zero written surface, we're starting from scratch, and we write: 1010
      1.0
      0.0
      1.0
      0.0

      Now, let's say that we overwrite this with 1100
      1.01
      1.00
      0.01
      0.00

      We can read back the 1100 and subtract the noise from our signal.
      0.01
      0.00
      0.01
      0.00

      Amplify the signal by a gain of 100.
      1.0
      0.0
      1.0
      0.0

      With VERY sophisticated and sensitive gear you could even read back data after multiple writes.  The best part is that the CRC checksums of the sectors will help you verify the data is correct.  It's best to overwrite multiple times with a good source of (pseudo)randomness, like a cipher in CBC mode with a strong key and pseudo-random data stream.  I'd say 3 times would be more than enough to obfuscate the data, but what do I know?

      Now, a factor of 100 is a gross simplification for example purposes only. This was a bigger concern with older hard drives; Modern hard drives store the magnetic fields in such a way that it's even harder to recover, but the truth is it's not digital.  It's still analog underneath, and subject to the same type of retrieval practices with very good gear.

      SSDs use ware leveling, so over writing data does nothing but place the new data somewhere else, leaving the old data intact.

      In any event, if you want the data really gone, just hit it with a hammer a few times... Thermite may attract more attention than its worth.

    9. Re:Not so fast... by Sloppy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Any modern operating system uses swap space - and while there's usually a way to ask the OS never to swap a program out, it's seldom exposed to the user. It normally relies on the program itself requesting this, and not everything will. Though a program may be exited later, the area of swapfile it used to use is not necessarily freed from disk.

      Yeah, there are lots of ways to screw up, but swap is one of the easiest things to get right. Since the user doesn't need to know a key, the machine can pick a totally random one (256 real bits, no guessable passphrase with less actual entropy) for it at every boot. Swap can be as solid as your best symmetric cipher, and that's pretty damn good. All the PK used on the internet will fail long before this level of tech does. Set things up right and swap may be the #1 safest place on your disks, the catch being that your lose it every time your reboot. ;-)

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    10. Re:Not so fast... by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      <quote>2. Using a tool to wipe all free space - these usually work by creating a file and filling it with zeroes until the OS eventually returns a disk full error, then deleting the file. I have no idea what - if anything - they'll do with any data still sitting around the MFT. Not to mention the fact that they won't help if there's any incriminating files sitting around that weren't deleted in the first place - and as we've established, it's quite possible for an application to do this totally invisibly to the end user.</quote>

      HAHAHA.  POSIX states that writing zeros doesn't actually have to do anything but remember that it's supposed to return zeros for those blocks.  Thus, you can store a file that's 1TB of zeros on a 100GB drive... Morons everywhere.

    11. Re:Not so fast... by huge · · Score: 2

      it's not unusual for a program to:

      - Create a new file.
      - Dump the data into the new file.
      - Rename the old file.
      - Rename the new file so it has the same name as the old one.
      - Delete the old file.

      This. Some of the more recent applications may replace last three steps with atomic rename so that new file replaces the old one. Linux has supported atomic rename already for a good while and so do Vista and later versions of Windows. Even after this data from the old file and new file are still retained on disk, even though space used for the old file will be marked 'free'.

      --
      -- Reality checks don't bounce.
    12. Re:Not so fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The secure data standards suggested by the NSA, I think it was (might have been someone else), for data wiping are to flash 0 then 1 seven times before considering the disk clean. My understanding is that some small amount of residual charge remains after a single wipe that can be detected by removing the platers and using a more sensitive read head. It takes multiple wipes to make the residual charge lost in the noise of the other state changes.

    13. Re:Not so fast... by kcitren · · Score: 1

      Can you find me a study showing that even after 1 or 2 overwrites that a professional can retrieve the data? NISPOM now states that for fixed magnetic media, the clear method is " Overwrite all addressable locations with a single character." while the sanitation method is "Degauss with Type I, II, or III degausser."

    14. Re:Not so fast... by kcitren · · Score: 1

      Mind you, that's not for classified materials, classified still requires some type of physical destruction.

    15. Re:Not so fast... by jimicus · · Score: 1

      HAHAHA. POSIX states that writing zeros doesn't actually have to do anything but remember that it's supposed to return zeros for those blocks. Thus, you can store a file that's 1TB of zeros on a 100GB drive... Morons everywhere.

      One would hope that anyone writing such a utility would have the good sense to fill the file up with something other than zeroes for precisely this reason.

      Personally, I wouldn't stake my freedom on a gamble like that. You would be amazed how many applications are written with so little knowledge of the operating system's core API...

    16. Re:Not so fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have my swap partition configured for random password encryption so anytime the computer shuts down and is rebooted there is no way to retrieve the content of the swap partition.

    17. Re:Not so fast... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      OR the secret truth that cannot be discussed is that classified data recovery operations can read overwritten data much better than public recovery operations.

      Which is why when people talk about the theoretical difficulties and the implausibility of recovering data off of overwritten sectors, its a worthless assurance. Noone has demonstrated a mathematical impossibility, they just say "we dont think anyone can do this".

      If you want data really, truly, for realsies gone, degauss the disk, or raise it to the curie point.

    18. Re:Not so fast... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Hammer isnt going to destroy the magnetic domains. Someone with really good gear could in theory make a digital reconstruction of the drives by reading off the broken pieces of the platter.

      If you are going to destroy the drive anyways, throw it in an incinerator or degauss it, or else take a grinder to the platters (id like to see someone reconstruct the drive from abraded dust).

    19. Re:Not so fast... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      BS. Even if you just flip the bits twice (once to 0, once to 1) the data is virtually unrecoverable.

      This is speculation. Every time this comes up on slashdot, people talk about how difficult it is, without ever demonstrating why its not possible (note the "VIRTUALLY unrecoverable"). There is no physical or mathematical reason why it cannot be done, just speculation on what level of sophistication the would-be attackers have.

    20. Re:Not so fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OR the secret truth that cannot be discussed is that classified data recovery operations can read overwritten data much better than public recovery operations.

      Read data that has been overwritten? Computers aren't magic, bro.

    21. Re:Not so fast... by Trixter · · Score: 1

      There is probably a very good reason when going up against "the bad guys" you only trust thermite, and going up against internal investigators and auditors, "trust us, writing zeros is good enough"

      It depends on the drive technology. If you were in the service in the 1970s/1980s, where hard drive tech was MFM or RLL or similar, then yes, thermite was the correct option. For 2011-era SATA drives, zeros are almost good enough, and overwriting with a random data stream is most definitely good enough (the amount of time and equipment needed to try to recover a modern drive that has been overwritten with a random data stream is so prohibitive that it is usually easier and cheaper to just threaten someone with harm to coerce information out of them).

    22. Re:Not so fast... by FileNotFound · · Score: 1

      You do not take chances with classified data. It's just not done. Every media ever labeled anything other than unclassified is destroyed once it has served it's purpose.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, the television watches YOU!
    23. Re:Not so fast... by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      It's because writing zeroes takes time and is easy to screw up -- power loss, drive failures, etc. will stop the erasure process. Thermite is fast, reliable, and gives visual feedback that the operation has completed successfully.

    24. Re:Not so fast... by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      The evidence suggests that the disk was partially zeroed, then that operation was cancelled and the disk was simply reformatted without first erasing it.

    25. Re:Not so fast... by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      Exactly. That's how to do it. Set it up once like that, and then you don't need to worry about swap anymore. I think Linux has had this easy-to-do since the 2.2 days and OpenBSD was (I think?) doing it before that. And that was back when processors were an order of magnitude slower than today's stuff.

      The other problems jimicus mentions still stand, but the swap problem is so solved.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    26. Re:Not so fast... by loxosceles · · Score: 2

      The standard recommendation I've seen is to overwrite at least 3, perhaps 5, 7, or even 9 times[0], often with a final all-zero overwrite[1] at the end (since an all-zero nominal image might discourage someone from looking harder, while a disk full of random-looking data can only result from a random overwrite or a full-disk encryption system).

      The "kill it with fire" technique is more a question of speed and when you can afford to destroy disks. I've heard the NSA burns their disks, and Google physically mangles disks, but consider that those organizations are going to get rid of disks either when the device using them is past its useful lifetime, or when the disk starts failing. At that point the future value of keeping the disk around is low. It's more cost effective to use a quick method that prevents data recovery (of the desired level depending on threat model), rather than tying up computers and personnel in lengthy overwrite procedures when the disk is probably going to be thrown out anyway.

      The reason for multiple overwrites is that if you look at absolute magnetic readings from the disk at each bit storage position, it's not digital. Instead of "1" or "0", you might see .998 or .005.

      The one in-depth article I read a while back said that an overwrite moves the charge roughly 90% of the way to the opposite value. If a bit was "1" and is overwritten with "0", the new value would be 0.1 Subsequent overwrites similarly attenuate past data. Given disk error rates today, I think 90% is optimistically high.

      For the sake of simplicity, if each overwrite pass changes the data value exactly 90% of the way from the current value to the target value, every bit on the disk is going to be either between 0 and 0.1 or between .9 and 1.0. More specifically, there are four possibilities for each bit. If the reading is close to the range 0.00 to 0.01, both the current and last image stored a zero. If the reading is close to the range 0.09 to 0.10, the current image is zero and the last image was a 1. Similarly for 0.90 to 0.91 and 0.99 to 1.00 ranges.

      With a perfectly accurate magnetic detector and a HDD write mechanism that is perfectly accurate, and a perfectly linear and resilient magnetic layer on the disk, you could discover past images one by one... once you determine the last image logical value, you apply a function, possibly a linear map, to strip out the computer-visible layer and derive the exact magnetic reading as it would have been before the last overwrite. Repeat, wash, rinse...

      The objective of overwriting several times is to push the magnetic differences caused by the last "real" stored data into the range where it's obscured by noise, either noise of the magnetic imager used to take raw magnetic readings, or much more likely, noise of the HDD writing mechanism (it isn't writing a perfect "1" value each time), or noise or imperfections of the magnetic substrate leading to imperfect magnetic storage.

      I think recommendations for 35 overwrites, or even 9 overwrites, may be overestimating the capabilities of an adversary. Not because of anything the adversary does, but because of modern hard drives. Data is crammed into such small magnetic wells that the absolute magnetic readings are less consistent than ever before. Given the error rates of modern TB-sized disks, I would expect many blocks with unrecoverable (2+ bit errors per block) read errors upon reconstruction of even the second to last magnetic image. Repeating the process, I would expect errors to increase non-linearly. My WAG is that before 9 overwrites you're in a situation where even a perfect magnetic detector is reading only low-level noise from the drive. (I'm talking about noise from the non-perfect magnetic layer on the disk surface, and fluctuating magnetic field write strength from the drive head.)

      [0] see, for instance, http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/310128

    27. Re:Not so fast... by budgenator · · Score: 2

      So Manning certainly knew about this kind of thing, but either didn't do it or didn't do it correctly. I wonder how difficult it is to mess something like that up?

      Well,

      Johnson testified that he found two attempts to delete data on Manning’s laptop. Sometime in January 2010, the computer’s OS was re-installed, deleting information prior to that time. Then, on or around Jan. 31, someone attempted to erase the drive by doing what’s called a “zerofill” — a process of overwriting data with zeroes. Whoever initiated the process chose an option for overwriting the data 35 times — a high-security option that results in thorough deletion — but that operation was canceled. Later, the operation was initiated again, but the person chose the option to overwrite the information only once — a much less secure and less thorough option.

      All the data that Johnson was able to retrieve from un-allocated space came after that overwrite, he said. Jolt in WikiLeaks Case: Feds Found Manning-Assange Chat Logs on Laptop

      First you actually have to shred the files you don't want around, then do a quick single pass ZeroFill then on a frequent basis defrag the harddisk and do a high-level ZeroFill; few will have the patience to do this consistently enough to be effective. It's simply human nature to get sloppy and over-confident after a while.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    28. Re:Not so fast... by 3nails4aFalseProphet · · Score: 1

      I'm with Alranor. Having spent several years on subs, sometimes in "interesting" locations, I second the notion that "burn it with fire" is likely used if there is threat of capture due to the need for speed of disposal, and also because it doesn't matter how the sensitive data is stored... paper, mag tape, hd, ssd, dvd... high enough heat destroys them all. It also doesn't require anything to still have power to "write zeros".

      --
      /*Insert boring sig here*/
    29. Re:Not so fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the crew of the surviellance plane that went down in China were told to destroy their equipment by pouring coffee on it and hitting it with hammers. Clearly, you should take any methods used by the military as a model for your own best practices.

    30. Re:Not so fast... by UBfusion · · Score: 1

      Using thermite on my hard drive would be perceived by the interested parties as a confession of my guilt. If I were in his shoes I'd never use it, I'd just use non-destructive methods like the ones he did.

    31. Re:Not so fast... by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Hammer isnt going to destroy the magnetic domains"

      Umm, with the right impact, the heat and force imparted via thermodynamics to the platter can indeed change magnetic domains.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    32. Re:Not so fast... by Toonol · · Score: 1

      There is no physical or mathematical reason why it cannot be done,

      Yes there is. You don't know whether a relative voltage level of 0.01 indicates that this was a 1 overwritten with a zero twice, or a 0 overwritten with a 1 then with two zeros. You cannot know. The voltage level is set by the cumulative (lessening) effect of every write that ever occurred on that spot on the platter, and you do not know how many writes occurred.

    33. Re:Not so fast... by Thavilden · · Score: 1

      Hope you weren't using thermite on the sub, sounds dangerous.

    34. Re:Not so fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give me any example of this being done in the last decade.

      This *used* to be possible. Bit densities and lower energies involved in writing (SSDs aside) turned this from damned-hard-in-practice to practically-impossible a long time ago.

    35. Re:Not so fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dammit to hell, I don't know why this stupid magnetic media meme persists when it's original author published that he had been wrong about it, it's not even possible on drive densities we've had since around 2000. Peter Gutmann is the guy who wrote about it, originally, and later admitted he'd been wrong. Go ahead, look it up.

      With very sensitive gear you cannot re-read overwritten data. Ask the guys who do hard drive recovery, there's some actual physics involved here.

      Another incredibly wrong thing that comes up all the time is the DOD 5220.22-M spec wiping, the NISP manual specifies degaussing or destruction as the only procedures, overwriting the data was never an option.

    36. Re:Not so fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      man 5 crypttab see the swap argument.

    37. Re:Not so fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Copying my post from above:

      Dammit to hell, I don't know why this stupid magnetic media meme persists when it's original author published that he had been wrong about it, it's not even possible on drive densities we've had since around 2000. Peter Gutmann is the guy who wrote about it, originally, and later admitted he'd been wrong. Go ahead, look it up.

      With very sensitive gear you cannot re-read overwritten data. Ask the guys who do hard drive recovery, there's some actual physics involved here.

      Another incredibly wrong thing that comes up all the time is the DOD 5220.22-M spec wiping, the NISP manual specifies degaussing or destruction as the only procedures, overwriting the data was never an option.

    38. Re:Not so fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easy enough. As I understand it space on the disk is allocated in blocks - if you delete a log, but a small file write uses one of those blocks afterwards, then the rest of the block is marked 'in use' and won't be overwritten by most shredder type applications.
      For example, find a small (1kb) file on your nearest Windows system. Right click it and get its properties; it will give you the file size, then underneath 'size on disk', which will probably be 4kb. That's the size of the block - and 3kb+ of that block could be previously deleted data, prone to recovery.

      To do the job properly you'd basically need to wipe the entire filesystem,

    39. Re:Not so fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      either the automated system to do that can be selectively remotely subverted on command (perhaps a routine investigation into him "fishing expedition" found more than expected?) OR the secret truth that cannot be discussed is that classified data recovery operations can read overwritten data much better than public recovery operations.

      Or the data wasn't recovered at all, but manufactured to support their case.

    40. Re:Not so fast... by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Thank You.

      And don't the kind of data that could get you in trouble on a disk. When I say trouble, I don't mean the common pirated software / songs / movies, but the kind of stuff that disappears people.

      Put in a USB key chain drive. They're arguably easier to destroy in a jiff, assuming you know what you're doing. One blowtorch, one USB key chain drive -> coming to a Youtube near you.

           

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    41. Re:Not so fast... by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      One blowtorch, one USB key chain drive -> coming to a Youtube near you.

      Until UMG deletes it.

    42. Re:Not so fast... by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      >

      So Manning certainly knew about this kind of thing, but either didn't do it or didn't do it correctly. I wonder how difficult it is to mess something like that up?

      Depends on the method used.

      If you just "cat /dev/null >dummy.txt" then there'll be a bit of data at the end of each incomplete file cluster which isn't overwritten.

      --
      No sig today...
    43. Re:Not so fast... by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      The magnetic data is analog. so, it's less 1's and 0's than 1.0031 and 0.073...
      Overwriting with zeros could leave some evidence of the previous data eg (w/ a 1/100th retention: 0.010031 and 0.0073).

      Hasn't this myth been put to bed yet?

      --
      No sig today...
    44. Re:Not so fast... by Grail · · Score: 1

      There's also the possibility that Lamo was lying, or that the "Bradley Manning" he was chatting with was actually someone else trying to set Bradley up as a stool pigeon.

    45. Re:Not so fast... by PiSkyHi · · Score: 1

      I think if you expect people to go to this effort to manage their own information destruction process, perhaps they should have circumvented all of it with hard disk encryption - even buying a new drive and starting again with encryption is better advice - then physically destroy the original to your own personal level of paranoia satisfaction.

    46. Re:Not so fast... by PiSkyHi · · Score: 1

      There is also the assumption that each write layer is perfectly uniform despite reads being close to error. Even if there is localised uniformity in a single pass, I doubt there is any reason to assume it is purely a function of locality given manufacturers are pushing the limits of what is physically possible to make more money. If they choose to make a barely accurate reader at a given density to maximise profit, would the write process be orders of magnitude more accurate ?

    47. Re:Not so fast... by johanatan · · Score: 1

      But, you are not limited to looking at a single bit in isolation from the rest of the bits. Layers cover multiple bits.

    48. Re:Not so fast... by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Yes there is. You don't know whether a relative voltage level of 0.01 indicates that this was a 1 overwritten with a zero twice, or a 0 overwritten with a 1 then with two zeros. You cannot know. The voltage level is set by the cumulative (lessening) effect of every write that ever occurred on that spot on the platter, and you do not know how many writes occurred.

      But you can guess. And if that guess produces something other than random noise, you're probably right. It's even easier to guess if you know the erasure program wrote all 1's or all 0's instead of randomizing.

    49. Re:Not so fast... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Youre appealing to what you are assuming is a random starting position and random operations performed on it. If so, you would be right.

      How confident are you that both are really random? Because otherwise, it seems like there is a potential problem with your confidence there. Faulty RNGs can really ruin your day-- especially when it turns out that the drive's starting position WAS deterministic, and so is the way in which that magnetic domain alters with bit writes.

    50. Re:Not so fast... by Jagen · · Score: 1

      Hard drives don't write 1s and 0s to a disk, look up EPRML and tell me how your idea will work.

    51. Re:Not so fast... by dubsnipe · · Score: 1

      I might if you place a nail between the hammer and the disk.

    52. Re:Not so fast... by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      There are also really big shredders :)

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    53. Re:Not so fast... by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      That is called overwriting the file slack, and many of the available programs handle that.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  6. Info Doesn't Add Up by am+2k · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Maybe it's the usual journalist dumbing-down, but the forensics info doesn't add up:

    Then, on or around Jan. 31, someone attempted to erase the drive by doing what’s called a “zerofill” — a process of overwriting data with zeroes. Whoever initiated the process chose an option for overwriting the data 35 times — a high-security option that results in thorough deletion — but that operation was canceled. Later, the operation was initiated again, but the person chose the option to overwrite the information only once — a much less secure and less thorough option.

    So it's "only" zero-filled.

    Mark Johnson, a digital forensics contractor for ManTech International who works for the Army’s Computer Crime Investigative Unit, examined an image of Manning’s personal MacBook Pro...

    How is that contractor able to decode the original data from a zero-filled disk from a mere image?

    1. Re:Info Doesn't Add Up by Alranor · · Score: 3, Informative

      Somehow you missed the very next line of the article ....

      All the data that Johnson was able to retrieve from un-allocated space came after that overwrite, he said.

    2. Re:Info Doesn't Add Up by am+2k · · Score: 1

      Zero-filling the disk should write over the whole disk, not just parts of it. Why is there unallocated space with data?

    3. Re:Info Doesn't Add Up by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      It seems someone used the computer after it was zero-filled, then 'deleted' some files.

    4. Re:Info Doesn't Add Up by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      The actual procedure as it was explained to me is that he used the OS X install-disk option to overwrite his disk and chose the Gutmann erasure option, which is a 35-pass wipe. It also takes forever and gives you a helpful progress bar indicating that it will take forever. Apparently he cancelled this and chose the zero-pass wipe -- also known as "just format the drive and install a new OS without actually erasing the disk".

      Pro tip: zero-pass wipe is not secure.

    5. Re:Info Doesn't Add Up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe that part of the confusion here is the “personal perception factor”. One man’s DoD wipe is another man’s delete. With that I don’t know how many times I’ve found myself in conversations about wiped drives that have allegedly been zero’d only to find out that the tech savvy guy that made the statement only zero’d the MBR and not the full content of the drive. In a nutshell, the lack of details leaves stories like this up for debate and of course others to add in their own theories and opinions in as facts. Take everything with a grain of salt and try hard to ignore the silliness

    6. Re:Info Doesn't Add Up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What bothers me most of that is the mention of "MacBook Pro". A Mac is a computer just like any other, but since the huge boost in popularity they seem to have had since the iPhone, they are often referred to by name in articles. You don't often see "Manning's personal Lenovo Thinkpad", do you? Mac still only has a small share of the pc market, so why not just say "Manning's personal computer"?

  7. Data Recovery Capabilities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Johnson testified that he found two attempts to delete data on Manning’s laptop. Sometime in January 2010, the computer’s OS was re-installed, deleting information prior to that time. Then, on or around Jan. 31, someone attempted to erase the drive by doing what’s called a “zerofill” — a process of overwriting data with zeroes. Whoever initiated the process chose an option for overwriting the data 35 times — a high-security option that results in thorough deletion — but that operation was canceled. Later, the operation was initiated again, but the person chose the option to overwrite the information only once — a much less secure and less thorough option. All the data that Johnson was able to retrieve from un-allocated space came after that overwrite, he said.

    Assuming they did their best, if they didn't use any hidden magical tech to recover data from Manning then I guess unless you're the world's most wanted for terrorism, genocide and squashing puppies then any other criminal or civilian should feel safe with only one pass of zeros. I'm deliberating ignoring the whole "exposure of techniques on lesser things" argument because if they aren't going to do it for Manning they're not going to do it for anyone or anything less then him.

    1. Re:Data Recovery Capabilities by neokushan · · Score: 2

      I'm very curious about this, because as far as I was aware, the debate on "how much do you need to overwrite data to securely delete it?" raged quite a bit a few years ago, but nobody could actually prove that it was possible to recover data that was overwritten just the once? There was even a website set up, the Great Zero challenge (Which has now been pulled, supposedly nobody ever accepted it) to try and prove or disprove the myth.

      Does anyone have any information on where that really stands? Is it actually possible to recover overwritten data by any known means? I realise that the DOD don't see single-overwrites of zeros as enough, but what's that based on?

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    2. Re:Data Recovery Capabilities by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      There is a residual charge in a platter when set to 0. Basically, you can tell what the previous charge was because it isn't quite as strong as it would have been if you wrote a 1 twice. A hard disk platter isn't truly digital. It is actually an analog storage medium. If the magnetic field strength is above or below a certain value, it is considered a one or a zero. However, if you write a 1 twice in a row, then that 1 will be minutely stronger and if you have a one and then write it to a 0, the 0 may be slightly less strong. It is at least theorized (and likely practical fact) that this slight difference is enough to be detected by sensitive instrumentation. Writing 0s and 1s multiple times increases the noise enough that it conceals the original data. A perhaps even more ideal approach would be to write random data to the drive multiple times as this would cause further entropy on the drive and make it even harder to determine the useful data from a particular wipe.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    3. Re:Data Recovery Capabilities by neokushan · · Score: 1

      Interesting, that certainly makes a lot of sense. Does that mean that Flash memory isn't as susceptible to such techniques, or does it also have some form of residual data?

      Also, does that mean that writing zeros numerous times is also likely not to be effective since (theoretically, at least) there will still be a difference in charge between what was once a 0 (before it was overwritten) and what was a 1? Similarly, overwriting with all zeroes and then all 1's would likely be a waste of time? Hence why you say random data would be more secure.

      What I'm trying to ask is, is overwriting with zeroes multiple times less effective than overwriting with random data once?

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    4. Re:Data Recovery Capabilities by blueg3 · · Score: 2

      It's not that simple. That's a reasonable description of an MFM disk, an old technology that isn't used any more. MFM disks were the topic of the Gutmann paper. Basically all claims that you can recover data from a zeroed drive are based on this paper. Gutmann has since repudiated it. Modern disks are substantially more complicated in terms of how a block of data gets turned into a collection of magnetizations, such that it's no longer reasonable to ever expect to get any useful information out of hysteresis (residual magnetization).

      Nonetheless, the myth persists that somehow, magically, the government can read erased hard drives. What actually turns out to be the case is that people don't bother erasing hard drives.

      (Also, it's not charge, it's moment. You can't add and remove magnetic charge because we haven't found any magnetic monopoles.)

    5. Re:Data Recovery Capabilities by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that info. I did not know the tech had changed. I don't follow hard disk tech that closely and only had knowledge of the original reasoning behind the multi-wipe recommendation. It is still interesting that the government recommendation is still on the books though and from what another poster said, the number of cycles has been increased from 7 to 35. Perhaps there is some other type of residual information that we don't know about but they do, or perhaps it is just fear that someone may discover something.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    6. Re:Data Recovery Capabilities by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      I know flash has burn in issues where they get a limited number of writes before they can't be written anymore. What I don't know is if there is any practical means by which this could be used to reconstruct part of a previous state of the card. That's beyond my level of understanding of flash technology, but I would hazard that it probably isn't as I think the mechanism of failure is actually the ability to switch the state of a circuit and there wouldn't be much of an effective means to measure the deterioration of the physical circuit. That is really just a best guess though and isn't terribly informed, so I wouldn't rely on it for anything.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    7. Re:Data Recovery Capabilities by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      The DoD actually stipulates 7-pass still. (However, physical destruction seems to be required for classified material.) 35-pass is the recommendation Gutmann made as so is often available in disk-wiping software.

      The appeal of the multi-pass wipe is that it provides some degree of future-proofing (if people figure out a new technology for drive recovery, you may still be protected against it) and it's basically free if you're dealing with enough drives and have proper workflow.

  8. Re:"not scrubbed from the disk" ,"Same password" ? by am+2k · · Score: 1

    He attempted to delete the information by zero-filling the disk. The same password issue stems from being the default on the operating system (Mac OS X). I guess the forensics contractor reversed the hash from the login information and retrieved the password that way. This requires some serious computing power for the password used.

    I guess 11 digits can be considered mightily unsafe now. Obligatory xkcd reference.

  9. Real Heros do not throw the lives of others away by Shivetya · · Score: 1, Insightful

    and he is no real hero nor the people who dispensed the information. A real hero would have taken the time to scrub names of people who are informants and such in hostile areas. A real hero would always be on the look out for the the little guy, not simply acting out of anger or spite. A real hero does not act as Manning did.

    Yes, there were some good outcomes from what he is accused of doing, however we will never know how many lives were lost because of it. Granted we may not know of lives saved, but I am pretty sure those lost are real.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  10. twink? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From the looks of his password I'd say he did not fit well with Army life.

  11. Assange by koan · · Score: 1

    So if Assange was interacting with him to get the data I think that may "stick the fork" in Assange, and the fact he used the same password on his Macbook as he did on his encrypted files is a warning to everyone, don't reuse user names or passwords, ever.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  12. Re:Real Heros do not throw the lives of others awa by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A real hero would have taken the time to scrub names of people who are informants and such in hostile areas.

    Whoever passed the information did so unto the entity that did the scrubing for him. It's unreasonable to expect that he parsed reams of documents to remove stuff.

    A real hero would always be on the look out for the the little guy, not simply acting out of anger or spite.

    Whoever leaked the docs, was looking out for the helpless and wanted to defend them from US military assholes acting out of infantile anger, spite and sadism.

    A real hero does not act as Manning allegedly did.

    FTFY, idiot.

    we will never know how many lives were lost because of it. Granted we may not know of lives saved, but I imagine those lost are real.

    FTFY. That's just your imagination/wishful thinking/bad will/brainwashing.

    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  13. The strength of your passwords doesn't matter... by merczilla · · Score: 0

    Law enforcement can get a court order requiring you to surrender all passwords, so they might as well all be the same. You are required to legally comply or they get you for obstructing justice in addition to whatever else you are going to likely be convicted of(which certainly, they already have some 'evidence' against you). So encrypting disks and all of that other bunk may be great at preventing your work from being stolen by a competitor, but not so useful against the man. The only real protection here is if you use something like TrueCrypt and can actually obscure filesystems, or make relevant data/folders look like junk. If they do not know you store the data in that file then as long as it's not named "stolen documents" you're probably ok. Some of the methods used by TC would probably fall victim to a good sector editor, but if they don't know they're there they probably aren't looking. Let's recap why this guy became a suspect: 1) Speaking on the phone to a person who has been the subject of several government shit storms due to being public and controversial. (He is nearly always watched, recorded, or whatever.) 2) Keeping stolen documents on a computer in your work area/possession for no reason. If they were disposed of after use then there would be nothing to recover especially if you used a tool like BCWipe or something else that wipes with random noise. 3) Using tools like wget are not discrete. The network engineers just had a heart attack the minute this goof started beating the crap out of every server they had. They would have easily had IP's and access times because all the military clocks are synced up. All they'd have to do is figure out what IP was accessing and what station -- and sure as hell they knew who was doing this. It's very easy to log sessions with firewalls and network intrusion detection systems, and the military no doubt logs almost everything. So basically, I think despite what he did.. He was sloppy, and amateurish and that's why he got caught... Even though I respect his ideals his methods are joke.

  14. HIs "gender issues" are a mental illness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One of Manning's defenses is his "gender issues"/homosexuality is a mental illness.

    WTF?

  15. Re:The strength of your passwords doesn't matter.. by koan · · Score: 1

    You can plead the 5th amendment is some cases to keep from giving your password, not sure that applies in a military trial but there it is for the record...you know in hopes of keeping the FUD down.

    I do agree here: "Even though I respect his ideals his methods are joke" Yes he was definitely not savvy enough to get into what he got into and one wonders from the chats if he fancied himself a "hacker".

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  16. Re:Real Heros do not throw the lives of others awa by AdamJS · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In fairness;
    -He was assured that the names of sensitive peoples would be scrubbed. Or rather, the truly sensitive cables would not be leaked. And Wikileaks actually did not release many documents purely because of that.
    -Wikileaks was using agencies like TheGuardian for the leaks, which assured them that they would properly vet the cables
    -The last, drastic and total leak was the result of general incompetence in regards to the total file and the security passcode for it having been posted online by different people, unawares. Oops.

    Really, his duty is to the US constitution, and if he believed that there was cause for the leaks - that the army or military or diplomats were treasonous in their duty and that the cables were proof needed to bring this to light - then it's quite understandable that he tried to expose them.

    His main mistake was pure naivety or pure dumbassery in trusting a random foreigner with such sensitive data - he had NO way of knowing that this information wasn't going straight into enemy hands - and not trying to bring this data to a local news agency like the NYT (just an example).

  17. Come off it, you're bisexual too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    'cos when you want sex, you have to buy it.

    It's a far greater crime to classify a document as secret when it should not be.

    And there is not one case of leaking of any information that put ANYONE'S life in danger, except if you include the NYT (?) who dumped the whole lot out in error, which is hardly Manning's fault, is it.

  18. Re:"not scrubbed from the disk" ,"Same password" ? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

    Modern Mac OS X uses a single SHA-1 hash (salted) to store passwords. Older versions of OS X uses somewhat less-secure hashes, and if you've interacted with a Windows network you may have things like an NTLM hash to work with.

    While the password is 11 characters, it's well within the set of passwords that a good dictionary attack generator will hit -- a word, a year, and some symbols. SHA-1 is cheap to crack.

    This is a good example of why operating systems storing passwords should use key strengthening. A 1024-round HMAC is still trivially cheap to compute for a single password. Even if cracking this password took them only a month (a reasonable time for a long, guessable password), increasing the difficulty by 1024 would render it impossible to crack.

  19. Wired is biased, and tainted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can we get a non-Wired reliable news source on this please!

    1. Re:Wired is biased, and tainted by smitty777 · · Score: 1

      Hey AC,

      I actually looked around for articles from some other source before I posted this, but couldn't find any. Most of the other sources talked about the non-tech (or non-nerd if you will) aspects of the case. I just wanted to focus on the stuff I thought would be interesting to the /. crowds.

      smitty777

      --
      "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish"
      Albert Einstein
  20. Re:"not scrubbed from the disk" ,"Same password" ? by Sloppy · · Score: 2

    He should only blame himself for these mistakes.

    Obviously, but Manning's not-having-his-shit-together was way deeper than technical. His situation was one where you don't even want to be a suspect or "person of interest." Once you have determined investigators looking at you, it's like having a determined burglar specifically interested in your house. He was one of tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people with access to these supposedly-sensitive documents, safely lost in a totally unmanageable crowd, and he told someone "look at me! look at me!"

    I don't know if it even makes sense to "blame" him for getting caught, because at some point he apparently decided it was ok to get caught.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  21. The most pointless prosecution in history by accessbob · · Score: 1
    Considering how easy the DoD made it to steal the cables, from technical issues to simple security ones, the data was clearly meant to be read by the enemy.

    Maybe it was not meant to be splashed over the world's newspapers, but they obviously had someone in mind that they wanted to indirectly influence.

    Now they have to be seen to be shocked and horrified by the leaks, and Manning is the chosen sacrificial lamb. He may actually be responsible, but I doubt that it matters much.

  22. Re:Real Heros do not throw the lives of others awa by Fned · · Score: 1

    but I am pretty sure those lost are real.

    Really? Why? None of the informants actually named in the documents has been killed yet...

  23. Trust Wired's reporting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's lots of 'might be's, 'person believed to be's, etc. Wired has a vested interest in this since it was one of their employees who turned Manning in. Wired goes on to provide stenographer services for a spokesperson from the prosecution. This is sloppy misleading reporting at its worst. There is a reason the gov't psychologically tortured Manning for months, its because they don't have a leg to stand on. Go ahead and swallow whatever spiel they spew if you want.

  24. All linux users are as bad as Manning! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The first tab listed scripts for Wget, a program used to crawl a network and download large numbers of files, that would allow someone to go directly to the Net Centric Diplomacy database where the State Department documents were located on the military’s classified SIPRnet and download them easily; the second tab listed message record identification numbers of State Department cables from March and April 2010; the third tab listed message record numbers for cables from May 2010. The spreadsheet included information about which U.S. embassy originated the cable. The earliest indications on Manning’s computer that he was using the Wget tool was March 2010.

    That's from wired. And I demand all laptops at airports being checked for this "Wget tool"! Pirates! Spies! Everywhere!!

  25. Of course not by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    So do you believe that the editorial staff of the New York Times should be prosecuted as enemies of the US? They are the ones who actually published the leaks in the US, not Manning.

    Of course not, did you utterly miss the point of what he was writing? He said for example: "The calls to go after Assanage seems foolish to me". The person who PUBLISHES a leak to my mind is not at issue, once a leak is out it is out. A leak is wholly on the person who decided to break a vow or oath and release information they felt was important to release.

    In the case of Manning, I think he should be punished to the full extent of the law (up to and including execution). Not just because he was sworn to secrecy and violated that oath but also because there was simply NO WAY to release the volume of information he did and at the same time ensure information that truly could harm real people was not released. In theory yes he was promised some people would scrub the data but how did he really know they could be trusted? The fact remains he leaked a huge volume of data and some of it could well have gotten people killed, especially informants...

    The argument about what manning did being worth his life is a good one to have, but since he was the leaker and knew the possible punishment he should without hesitation be OK with giving his life to release the data he did, if he felt strongly enough that it was important to leak it.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  26. BULLSHIT and you of all people should know better by SuperKendall · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Whoever passed the information did so unto the entity that did the scrubing for him.

    That is a BULLSHIT excuse. Perhaps being a Slashdot reader you remember the phrase "information wants to be free". Well that applies for ANY information leaked. No-one Manning leaked to had a security clearance, so why should he trust them to scrub out sensitive information and not feed some in side channel?

    Either information is leaked or it is not, just as you cannot be only a little bit pregnant. Manning chose to leak everything without consideration for what information truly should not be released, and now he must face the consequences of what he chose to do.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  27. Not fair whatsoever by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    He was assured that the names of sensitive peoples would be scrubbed

    And why should he trust them not to send any of it elsewhere? As it turned out in fact the trust was totally misplaced so my question is really more hypothetical since the concern is proven to be totally valid. That's what happens when you give secure information to people without security clearances (or, as it turned out, sometimes to people with them). You must as a leaker assume all information given will be published somewhere.

    I just don''t get the backward bending apologetics of claiming that Manning is OK because he gave people he hardly knew sensitive data (and no training to know what is really sensitive information) with thin assurances as to handling.

    The last, drastic and total leak was the result of general incompetence

    No, it was inevitable. Information wants to be free. Once information was in the hands of multiple people it was going to get out one way or another.

    It wasn't bad luck or a twist of fate. It was the most likely outcome of giving sensitive data to a wide variety of people including people more inclined to publish potentially harmful information than not.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  28. Soldiers sign up to throw their lives away. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't go strutting around in another guy's country unless you're ready for some action, jack.

  29. Re:BULLSHIT and you of all people should know bett by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Fuck you sideways.
    Ellsberg.

    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  30. The Great Zero Challenge by l00sr · · Score: 1
  31. A climate of really lousy security... by Demerara · · Score: 2

    (1) Net Centric Diplomacy database
    Appears to have been trivially downloadable. Manning used Wget to automate the capture of cables from this database. Manning had access to secure networks (SIPRNet) and it was this, rather than any technical expertise, that allowed him to pull all the cables.It seems as if the Net Centric Diplomacy database and its interface (presumably a web front end) lacked any functionality to inhibit automated / bulk downloads, to track or log downloads or to alert operators to suspicious or anomalous patterns of access.

    Contrast this with the logging that was available in IntelLink (the SIPRnet internal search engine) that helped link incriminating keywords (Assange, Wikileaks etc) to the IP address assigned to Manning's computer. The defense cannot refute that, while they may be able to undermine the (very poorly gathered) computer forensics from Manning's computer.

    (2) Microsoft Share Point server
    Appears, also, to have been wide open to anyone on SIPRnet and to have permitted automated (scripted) bulk downloading of files. And, like (1), appears to have lacked any functionality to alert operators to suspicious behaviour.

    Contrast this, also, with the logging that was available in IntelLink.

    (3) Manning is no expert
    First, he used the same password for both his operating system (presumably, his Windows username/password) as for his encryption. Second, he claims to have "zero-filled" his hard disk but had not done so. Third, he used his own computer for the IntelLink searches thereby leaving a trail of evidence.

    (4) Lack of expertise seems quite widespread...
    The computer environment at the FOB where Manning worked was risible. In testimony, an officer described how "soldiers would store movies and music in their shared drive on the SIPRnet. The shared drive, called the “T Drive” by soldiers, was about 11 terabytes in size, and was accessible to all users on SIPRnet who were given permission to access it, in order to store data that they could access from any classified computer." In other words, in practise, no distinction between storage for movies and music and the storage for classified materials. While the officer told soldiers not to use it for music and movies (and used to delete same as well as reporting the abuse), the practise was prevalent. And despite the 11 terabytes (that is 11 thousand Gigabytes) available for music and movies, this officer cites lack of storage as the reason that some logs (that may have contained evidence) were not maintained. This officer, Capt. Thomas Cherepko, received a "letter of admonishment" for the lax enviroment at this base.

    Has the buck stopped at the Captain? I believe that points 1, 2 and 3 suggest a culture of information security so poor as to merit serious enquiry in its own right. Manning probably did break several laws in gathering and communicating the cables to WikiLeaks and, if convicted, must face the music. But the ease with which he did this ought to be cause for far more concern than we are seeing in the media. The US Army appears to be throwing Manning under a bus, but only a slap on the wrist for Cherepko. That is unjust. Lets see how this unfolds...

    --
    Backward%20compatibility%20is%20over-rated
  32. How to do it CORRECTLY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Manning left a sloppy mess and he will certainly be convicted on multiple counts. The only questions left open are 1) will others be dragged down with him, and 2) will he be executed? The death penalty is an option in this case and Manning knew it when he did his crimes. That, BTW, adds some weight to the "is an hero" viewpoint.

    Moving right along: How to do what Manning did, but do it correctly. Bearing in mind that development and deployment of advanced spyware specifically designed to identify "pre-leak" activity on corporate/USG/military computers is ongoing at a frantic pace. The rules of this game are about to change radically. But as things sit today, here's how to do the job right:

    1. Work from an encrypted Live USB operating system. Do NOTHING that is connected with collecting, processing, or transmitting leak data using a computer's "natively installed" operating system. Tails, Libre, and Privatix are good candidate operating systems. Physically destroy your USB stick after each use - they are cheap and restoring a "clean, safe" image to a blank one only takes minutes.

    2. Use a Truecrypt formatted partition on removable read/write media (USB flash or HD) for all data storage, including scripts, logs and etc.. Use Diceware to create your pass phrase, and assure that its entropy equals or exceeds the keyspace of the cipher used. Use the "hidden container" option, leaving tons of embarrassing but legal pr0n in the "outer" layer, just in case the rubber hose comes out.

    3. Where/as possible, change the MAC address of your network card and access the network via an open (or cracked) wireless router. Use TOR to conceal the content and destination of your out-of-LAN traffic from surveillance on the LAN.

    This leaves you wide open to hardware keyloggers and other hardware level attacks (hey, where did this huge flash memory chip come from?), and to surveillance on the LAN itself. If what you are collecting really is considered "sensitive and valuable" you will have to rely on incompetence or malfeasance on the part of the organization to get your job done right. Fortunately, hiring and assignment in IT at corporate/USG/military sites is driven by "vendor certifications acquired and asses kissed", so you should only rarely encounter any real obstacles.

  33. Re:Real Heros do not throw the lives of others awa by Darinbob · · Score: 1

    Plus Manning didn't know what he was doing. He did not read all of the information and then decide that it was important enough to make public. People are still sifting through all the data he grabbed to figure it out, and we still haven't learned anything new about illegal activities instead we learn about a lot of diplomatic trivialities. Instead he saw a bunch of files and grabbed them wholesale, sort of like wheeling out a filing cabinet without looking inside first.

  34. Should we believe a word? by Hentes · · Score: 1

    Should we trust Wired to report honestly on this case?

  35. Re:"not scrubbed from the disk" ,"Same password" ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, it was the same password ("TWink1492!!") that Bradley gave to that Lamo asshole.
    (I get "twink", but Columbus?)

  36. Re:"not scrubbed from the disk" ,"Same password" ? by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

    To be fair, his system was probably completely protected from the threat vector of a 20-something carrying a blank CD labelled "Lady Gaga".

    --
    sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});