Ask Slashdot: Is E-Learning a Viable Option?

An anonymous reader writes "My spouse, who is an elementary school science teacher, has had some experience in e-learning, since her school gave iPads to all the students. She found that students used these devices, not for school purposes like note taking, but for gaming, etc. It got to the point that she banned them from her classroom. Do technology aids help, or hinder, education? Is the idea that students can be home-schooled electronically realistic, or absurd?"

Comments

NO.

[tomhudson]

This question has been answered MANY times. NO study has shown that students benefit - and many have shown that the diversion of resources hurts them. It's a dead horse. Stop flogging it and move on.

Re:NO.

[Ethanol-fueled]

Yes, indeed.

It also doesn't help that the discipline in schools is relaxing to an all-time low, and kids can wear hats and have cell phones and text and game all day and then tell their teachers to fuck off - and not a damn thing will happen to them once their parents threaten a lawsuit.

Re:NO.

[Praedon]

Then you need to look at ECOT.

Re:NO.

[Trepidity]

If you mean recent studies on iPads, yes, but there was some successful use of computers in the classroom in the 80s. Of course, it also depends on what you care about. Using Logo increased procedural literacy, but whether Number Munchers increased mathematical literacy is more questionable. Iirc, the most positive effects generally came around long-term motivation rather than short-term imparting of facts; stuff like an oil-drilling simulation or Logo could help get kids interested in technology.

Re:NO.

[Praedon]

You missed the entire point of ECOT all together, you didn't read how the vast majority of the time, the student is all on their own following the curriculum. Those with learning disabilities spend a little more time obviously with a teacher.

Re:NO.

[EdIII]

That's why the technology is not the problem.

We could take this even further and imagine a complete MS Surface desk that allows full interactivity, test taking, etc. Something like out of Serenity.

The problem is the teachers. Without supervision a child is going to do what comes naturally to them, which is poor decision making. That's why they need supervision and guidance. Teachers walking around, giving a course lecture, asking questions, etc. is how real learning happens in a child's life. Real learning does not happen by multiple choice either, but critical thinking and actually evaluating not just retained knowledge, but knowledge that has been understood in context.

If you just hand them a piece of technology and tell them this is what will teach you and walk away you have to be pretty foolish to be surprised when you check in a couple hours later and they did not use it for that purpose.

Home schooled? That is completely absurd beyond all measure. ADULTS have problems telecommuting. I am a very disciplined person, but even I must admit that when working from home it is far easier for me to get distracted and take longer breaks. Being in an office environment with people walking in to my office, me walking around and checking in with people, I get more done myself.

You cannot expect a child to have a device, even totally locked down, and then use it in a disciplined fashion to educate themselves.

There is no magic answer, no magic pill, no magic technology that will allow adults to walk away from their children and then expect learning and growth.

You hit part of the problem too. Teachers being underpaid, not respected, and having their hands tied when it comes to discipline. Adding technology that can be abused without fixing that fundamental problem is stupid and wasteful at this point.

Re:NO.

[joocemann]

Actually, the parents are responsible for preparing the child to learn. The teacher is there to teach, not to motivate crappy kids from disinterested parents.... I will not hold that job to a teacher. Thats like expecting the police to be patient and guide punk brats to be good lawful kids... No. The cop is there to enforce the law, and if he goes out of his way to help guife in a lesson, thats a bonus.

Re:NO.

[Praedon]

I think I remember now, why I marked you as a foe a long time ago. You have nothing insightful to say about anything. Nor do you have anything intelligent or constructive to add to any conversation. If you would of read my post, you would realize it's about electronic home-schooling and not "swishy gadgets" in the school system. Self-modded down for troll and fail.

Re:NO.

[TheRaven64]

I've only seen one variable consistently correlated with pupil achievement over a variety of studies: teacher enthusiasm. Interestingly, even teacher knowledge did not show a strong correlation - an enthusiastic but ignorant teacher will motivate the students to do their own research. That said, computers are tools, just like blackboards. A teacher can make effective use of them, ignore them completely, or use them to hinder learning. Some teachers used to write things on the board for pupils to copy down - I doubt any study that looked at classrooms like this would show that the blackboard improves learning. Others use them to draw diagrams to illustrate important points, helping the more visual learners in the class. When I was 7, a teacher used a BBC Micro connected to a big TV to use logo to show us basic trigonometry. We then had a teacher cover the same material a few years later, but it stuck a lot better the first time because he'd ask us for suggestions, we'd propose sequences of angles and lengths, and the computer would immediately come back with the shape.

Re:NO.

[tomhudson]

And how iis that any different from what was done in the Australian outback decades ago, over ham radios? They both need three things that the VAST majority lack today - parents who will actually pay attention to their kids' needs, teachers who can teach, and students who are motivated.

elearning does nothing to fix this problem.

Re:NO.

[Hognoxious]

You're statement and attitude do provide evidence why e-learning is important

Indeed.

Re:NO.

[EdIII]

You're wrong, and being simplistic.

Raising and teaching a child is a cooperative effort on the part of the teachers and the parents. Teachers are there to motivate students, to inspire them, and to figure out where attention is needed. That is the mark of a great teacher.

Parents cannot teach as well because they don't have the time if they are working two jobs, and teaching is not so easy. A great teacher is not only educated themselves but understands *how* to teach a child.

Where parents fit in is discipline and respect for the teacher, as well as a well rounded upbringing where morality and ethics are instilled in the child. If the parents are doing their job, then the teachers job is much easier.

When I said the problem is the teachers, I did not mean to denigrate teachers at all. I meant that teachers are vital to teach children, and that equipment will never be a substitute for an adult in a child's life.

There are a lot of teachers right now that are a problem, but I can hardly blame them when they face uphill battles everyday worse than any IT grunts day.

If things are going to change, regardless of technology, it is both parents and teachers that need to change.

Re:NO.

[bcrowell]

NO study has shown that students benefit

A good counterexample is software developed at MSU called LON-CAPA, which is used to help math and science students check their answers to homework problems. Here is a list of publications about the system. For an example of a study that shows there is a benefit, try D. A. Kashy, G. Albertelli, E. Kashy and M. Thoennessen, Teaching with ALN Technology: Benefits and Costs, Journal of Engineering Education, 89, 499 (2001).

Another example that I've heard about recently, although on a purely anecdotal basis, is that handheld devices are turning out to be extremely helpful for working with autistic kids. I know someone who works with severely autistic children, many of whom have no language. They have ipads in the classroom, and she says it really helps a lot. For instance, if the kid wants fish sticks for lunch, they have an app where the kid can pop up a picture of fish sticks and show it to the person serving the food. This is way better than having the kid screaming or biting because he wants fish sticks but can't express that desire. I don't know if there is any peer-reviewed research yet on the effectiveness of the technique -- it sounds like it's fairly recent. However, if you google "ipad autism" you'll turn up a ton of material.

So maybe what you meant was that you didn't know of any studies that showed a benefit, or that there is probably no benefit from throwing a bunch of hardware at the kids without doing all the hard work of finding the right software and making sure it's used in an effective way.

That would be a completely different statement.

Re:NO.

[93 Escort Wagon]

No, no, no, no, NO.

When talking to a foe, you are supposed to start with: "So we meet again, Mr. Ethanol-fueled".

Re:NO.

[wmelnick]

It depends on what the teacher wants to say. It might be that the teacher is purposely teaching them this way then moving on to algebra and wants the student to know the hard way before learning the easy way. That is how I learned and while I do not know if they still teach kids that way today (my kids did not learn that way) it is possible.

Home Schooling depends on parents

[Dragon Bait]

I know 6 families that have home schooled with over half the kids now in college (other half still in high school). From my observations, electronics has very little impact or success or failure. Nearly all the success or failure is based on the parents: how serious they are about educating their kids, how connected they are with home school cooperatives, how much time their willing to invest. The complete failures that I've seen were easily predicable before the home schooling began (poorly educated parents, doing it for the wrong reasons, etc.)).

We used to play boxes on the grid paper

[nedlohs]

in our math class.

That didn't really say much about whether grid paper and pens were aiding or hindering our education.

It possibly does say something about the quality of the teacher...

YES it is, and here's proof

[Praedon]

My sister, when she lived in Ohio, had a learning disability. It wasn't until my family discovered ECOT that she finally had the fighting chance to graduate. They sent her a locked down computer, and gave her all the help and support she needed over the phone for all her lessons. Electronic home-schooling should seriously be considered all over the United States.

Re:YES it is, and here's proof

[morari]

Ohio has always been ahead of the game in terms of online charter schools. I was traditionally homeschooled for the better half of my academic career. My brother went through junior high and highschool using various online solutions. From my understanding, no one was a big fan of ECOT. They provided severely underpowered machines, which were in fact locked down too much. At the time, their bureaucratic setup was confusing and stifled learning. It may have gotten better in the years since, but I can't recommend it based on what I've seen.

Following up on that, my brother also did two years with OHDELA. They had their act together much better than ECOT, but again, issued terrible hardware. This time however, it was a crummy iMac locked down even tighter than the Compaq mini towers ECOT gave out. Furthermore, OHDELA relied far too much on trying to simulate a traditional classroom. Mandatory chatrooms and timed virtual blackboards just got in the way of the original promise of working at your own pace. It may have benefited those that needed the help, but making it compulsory did more to slow my brother's progress than anything.

His final time was spent with an organization called Buckeye Online. They provided a fairly decent laptop computer (completely open!) and relied more on bookwork. This was exactly what my brother had wanted all along. He wasn't chained to a desk or required to participate in some simulated blackboard environment. All he had to do was read the chapter in his text book and then submit the corresponding lesson electronically. He blew through the material and graduated one year earlier than he would have otherwise.

Now again, a lot has probably changed since I watched my family work with these different organizations. Some may be better or worse than they were. Some of the points of contention that my brother had may be the exact thing that your child would prefer. The point is to study up on them before just blindly signing up. Most of them do offer seminars leading up to the traditional start of the school year. Go and listen, ask questions, discuss your concerns. It has been my experience that you'll usually have the ear of some of the more important people within the organization.

So can students be home-schooled electronically? Absolutely. I would say that the benefits far outweigh any negatives. Most of the perceived problems that people have with homeschooling can be quickly and easily remedied if you're not a lazy parent. Having an online support system, as provided by these institutions, definitely makes things easier. It's still not something you can just throw and your child and expect to happen. It's a framework for the parents to work within, to help out, to expand upon, and to monitor. Of course, any parent who takes their job seriously would be doing that anyway, even if their child went to a physical school.

Re:YES it is, and here's proof

[Praedon]

That was a very insightful reply. ECOT in the beginning, from what we heard before my sister came in, was really in shambles. By the time my sister started though, it was her answer to dealing with bullies, lack of public education attention, and she could work on things at her pace. Every once in awhile, she did have some issues getting a hold of teachers, but they were bombarded for the longest time. She was really proud of herself, for being able to accomplish her work using ECOT though, and it really improved her self-esteem.

I do agree though, that it could be very situational to the child. ECOT worked for her, whereas it may not of, for your brother. I just wish I could of had ECOT when I was that age. I always found public education to be the most boring waste of time in the world. Never challenged, horrible environments, and hated all my peers.

Dreadful idea

[cohomology]

The kids who need help often have chaotic home environments. They need role models, not electronics. There is no technical fix.

Absurd

[pijokela]

Judging by my kids, the idea of home learning is absurd. Or at least it will require one parent to constantly supervise the home learning. Kids lack discipline and tenacity, they only learn those after growing up. So, if we are going to teach them boring stuff while they are growing, they need an environment that helps them focus on the matter at hand. I-products do not.

I actually find it quite interesting how many different schools around the world try something like this. Wonder if any of these projects are working out well. From what I've heard from teachers, even though kids nowadays know a lot about computers, it's all gaming and entertainment. They might not even know how to write a letter with their computer.

Re:Absurd

[immaterial]

Even that three hours of "homework club" is an absurdity. Your child would likely benefit far more from using those remaining daylight hours to socialize, run around outside, and have an opportunity explore her own interests. See Alfie Kohn's "The Homework Myth" for a very well-cited exploration of the research and a discussion of why the vast majority of homework is totally without merit.

Re:Control the devices

[CFBMoo1]

Before my university instituted a software lock down kit and group policies on their Windows machines we had a major problem keeping computers running software wise because students would stick all kinds of junk on lab PCs. Once our plan was put in to effect the devices were used more for what they were intended. The lesson is no different for devices like the iPad if it's school property. Lock it down or deal with the consequences.

Implementation, implementation, implementation

[The Stranger]

The problem with many (maybe most?) attempts to put technology in schools and even home learning environments is that people don't think through the implementation. Technology is not magic. You cannot expect to get good results simply by dropping a chunk of technology into a classroom without spending a lot of time and energy rethinking how teaching and learning is going to work in that classroom. For example:

What, exactly, is the technology going to be used for? No hand-waving general answers allowed here (e.g., "enrich content with interactive multimedia presentations" is a useless answer).
In what specific tasks will the technology allow you to do something that would have been cumbersome or impossible without it (e.g., using graphing or numerical methods to approximate solutions to equations that are not amenable to the usual algebraic techniques)?
What more interesting or more engaging problems can you now attempt to solve (that address your learning goals) that you would not have been able to attempt without the technology?
Will you want to change or expand your set of learning goals now that you have this piece of technology? If so, how?
How much instructional time will be needed to get the teacher and students working comfortably with the technology? Is the potential benefit worth that amount of time?
How do you implement the technology in ways that do not detract from the learning you are trying to do (i.e., what are the unintended consequences)? How might you plan ahead for negative unintended uses?

Almost every case I've ever seen or read about where technology was just dropped into an educational setting without painstaking planning and thought about curriculum and implementation, not to mention extensive training of teachers and staff, resulted in mixed results at best, and failure and rejection at worst. To answer the original questions directly, technology aids can help or hinder education- it's all in the amount of time, thought, sweat and tears that get put into the implementation. I won't comment more on the home schooling part of the question, as I really have no experience there (aside from supplementing my own kids' educations).

Re:Implementation, implementation, implementation

[james_van]

if i had mod points, i would mod you up. i couldnt have said it better myself. i spent some time working for a company that sold educational supplies and was part of the product development group. i was amazed when i first started at how much hardware was available to teachers, but how little software there was. and most teachers didnt have a clue how to effectively use what they had. we spent more time helping teachers develop processes and effective ways to use the technology then we did developing software. it really was sad, i would go into a classroom and ask the teacher what they used their whiteboard for, or how they used technology in teaching and usually it amounted to showing power point. occasionally a teacher would show us something a little interactive (usually a science teacher), but most of it was very basic. worse yet, my boss had these grand ideas of turning the classroom into an "educational arcade" and thought that we needed to produce nothing but games. so it was an uphill battle from multiple sides. it wasn't until we developed some interactive textbooks and showed a few teachers how to use them that we got any decent results. really, the more we studied the situation, the more we found that the average teacher needs nothing more than a projector for some powerpoint, and (for the slightly more advanced ones) a "blackboard" style homework/assignment tracking system.

Re:Implementation, implementation, implementation

[thephydes]

As a teacher I cannot agree with you more. Simply dumping technology into the classroom is worse than useless. Who tries to pick up the pieces and then gives up? The teacher! Who gets blamed for the "project" not working? The teacher! Who is given no training? The teacher! This is typical of most of the educational "innovations" that I have seen in 31 years. Show me a computer program that can teach Calculus/Trigonometry/Matrices better than I can and I'll resign tomorrow. Having said that I recommend Khan to my students because they can get another look and rewind as many times as they need to AT HOME with the support of their parents.

E-learning is still learning

[rbowen]

I am perplexed by equating "e-learning" with "give every kid an iPad". If you give a kid a screen and make it under their control they will find the games. If someone is unaware of this, they probably dont have kids. But this is not unique to electronics. If you give them a stack of text books and no supervision, they'll make paper airplanes. Education requires supervision at that age. Putting an e- in front of things doesn't change human nature.

Works but not yet a panacea

[EmperorOfCanada]

Oddly enough if you hand out a device that happens to be an excellent toy to a bunch of kids things won't go as well as you might expect. Yet I have a simple solution. Move your desk to the back of the classroom. Unless your educational software looks like angry birds one glance will tell you if little Johnny is screwing around.

I am the creator of Learn French by LessonStudio (shameless self promotion) which is a singleminded app that teaches basic French vocabulary and Grammar;. It follows some pretty basic modern educational science and personally I believe works rather well. Handed out to a class of kids they could probably absorb some French pretty quickly as compared to an equivalent textbook. But again I wouldn't hand the app out to the kids and leave them to their own devices(ha ha).

At the same time I don't think that there is any complete end to end teaching system out there. Moodle is a mess for teaching. It does what it does well but it certainly is far far away from being some replacement for teachers. It is really only for administering a classroom. But great administration does nothing to improve the teacher. I pick on Moodle but all the systems that I have seen are aimed squarely at the bureaucrats that run the schools with only a nod to actual improvements in teaching. So based on the state of the art right now if I were a teacher I would not look for something where I could go home but a series of tools that enhance individual lessons.

Great for distance learning ... mostly

[Neil_Brown]

I can only speak for myself, but I am enrolled on a distance-learning taught masters degree, which is taught solely over the Internet, and, on the whole, it has been a great experience.

Without physical classes, I've been able to study whenever I have wanted - the term has a structure, with deadlines to be met, but, around those, I can work during times which suit me. Lectures are delivered in the form of podcasts, in 30 minute slots. These I tend to listen to when I am driving or ironing - sufficient to get the gist of the topic. I avoid taking notes, since I just want to soak up what is being said.

The text book is delivered as a Word document, but quickly and easily converted to .pdf; other reading comes in whatever form in which it was originally provided (could be a link to a web page, or a .pdf download and so on) - again, all easily converted to pdf. These I read on my iPad (in iAnnotate) and mark them up accordingly; all synchronised back to my computers, to become searchable when it comes to thinking, and writing essays.

Essays are written - unsurprisingly - on a computer, and are submitted electronically; I tend to use .pdf, but I am not sure what others use. These are all run through TurnItIn software - I'm undecided whether I think that this is a good practice or not, but, since I have no say in the matter (short of quitting the course), I can live with it.

On the whole, a very positive experience indeed - I've studied on trains, planes as well as sitting at home, and have written essays in four different countries. The flexibility is great.

There are some downsides, though - particularly around student camaraderie and discussion. Despite there being some great tools available, I don't feel that we've quite cracked the discussion / debate side of things yet. I've chatted with some of the students around the world via Skype, which has been very interesting, but, having encouraged mailing lists, real-time text chat, and now blog posts / responses and (*shudder*) a Facebook wall, nothing seems to have attracted critical mass which, for me, is a real shame - I value the ability to discuss and debate very highly, and I don't feel we've got this quite right yet.

(It may, of course, be that few of the students actually want to discuss, and the distance-learning nature means that people can studying without feeling a pressure to discuss - if this is the case, the course is probably suiting them very well, and I could indeed see the value of this form of study for those who do not want to be in a classroom environment, or required to make conversation. Personally, I think that discussing and critiquing of ideas amongst peers is very valuable, but I appreciate that others may think differently.)

On the whole, though, it works very well for me - I find it easy to be motivated to study something I enjoy, in an environment which suits me.

Re:Great for distance learning ... mostly

[Hognoxious]

You're an adult, doing the course because you want to. TFA is about kids, most of whom would be rather doing something else.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[daem0n1x]

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

We seem to have done a pretty good job educating people in the last century or two. In most developed countries, most people are educated to the limits of human capacity.

All the innovative devices may have a role in education, but they should be considered carefully. Education systems are under attack right now. They're being pressured by the neoliberal shitheads to sharply lower costs and by corporations (usually the same guys) that want to make big money selling expensive toys to governments.

Blackboard and textbooks have worked for long, why such a rush to replace them? IMHO, the ability of a country to educate its population depends more in factors outside the school. like:

1. how families value education
2. how families stimulate critical thinking in kids
3. if kids are well fed, safe, happy
4. etc.

If a kid wants to learn and has a competent teacher, blackboard and textbook is more than enough.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[NEDHead]

Actually, one could make a case that public education started its downward spiral as a result of the Women's Liberation movement. Not blaming, just saying that the system was built on bright capable women working at low wages in a field where their participation was acceptable. When the best and brightest noticed the greener pastures, and the system did not compensate by offering competitive wages and status, well, you see what we got.

Interesting...

[rsilvergun]

taking that a step further, you can argue that the decline in middle class wages is a bigger part of that. Women can't afford to work for low wages as school teachers because their husbands no longer bring home enough money to maintain a middle class standard of living.

Re:Interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the ridiculous redefining of "a middle class standard of living".
I make $16.50 an hour, and my wife stays home with our four children. We're not hurting financially.
We don't own any Apple products, but that's really not a problem.

Re:Interesting...

[rsilvergun]

Moreover, I would ask:

How much do you save every month for retirement?
How much do you save every month for your 4 children's college fund?
What would you do if your car was wrecked by someone with no insurance and no ability to pay?
What would you do if you were out of work for 6 months due to an injury?

Being middle class isn't about where you are right now, it's about how secure you are in that position. This is the point most people miss. For the record, studies show you need about $65,000/yr average in America to be secure in your middle class standard of living.

Re:Interesting...

[93 Escort Wagon]

What would you do if your car was wrecked by someone with no insurance and no ability to pay?

Uninsured/underinsured driver coverage is a standard part of most people's auto insurance, and is very inexpensive - so this is only an issue if you, yourself, are not adequately insured.

I have no issue with your other points, though.

Re:Interesting...

[stu72]

This is a problem of expectations, not economics.

Nobody needs a new car every 3 years, nobody needs 1/4 acre and nobody needs 4 bedrooms unless you have about 12 children, which no one on LI has.

Adjust your expectations and I suspect you could live well on 65k, even on LI.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[daem0n1x]

Yes, I do. I find stupid and ignorant people everywhere. But the numbers of ignorant people have been noticeably decaying, at least in my country. Could you have done better? Please step ahead, we'd all love to know how.

It depends

[augi01]

As it stands, your question yields by default the answer, "it depends." With no restrictions, minimal training and supervision, the use of iPads (or whatever) in the classroom can hinder greatly students' performance. On the other hand, with restrictions, training and adequate supervision, there's no (immediate) reason why iPads (or whatever) cannot benefit students greatly. Without any additional information about how and within what framework the technology is being implemented, a more definite answer cannot be reached.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[jrminter]

I could not agree more with the importance of the "other factors" you listed. I think they are more important than technology. Technology is simply a tool - and like any tool it can be used well or abused. Consider the work of Salman Kahn of Kahn Academy. He started tutoring his cousins in math. Because he was doing this long distance, he started making you-tube videos. He reports that his cousins preferred the videos to "live sessions" because they could pause them and fit them into their own schedule. His work has grown into Kahn Academy that many schools are using effectively. At a higher level, I would point to the on-line machine Leaning class by Prof. Andrew Ng of Stanford. This uses technology very effectively but requires a self-directed and self-disciplined student. These same tools are abused by those who make poor choices.

At the elementary and secondary level, I view education like a three leg stool - where the parents, teachers, and administration are the three legs supporting the student (the seat.) If any part fails to perform, the whole system suffers. Parents must value education and require respectful, disciplined behavior from their children at all times; teachers must use all the tools at their disposal to create instruction plans that effectively communicate the material to the student. Technology is only one of many tools. The administration must make sure that teachers have the needed tools and help enforce discipline. When rowdy, disrespectful, and non-performing students are kept in the classroom, it ruins the environment for everyone. if the state must educate these problem students, they need to be segregated to a boot-camp like school that deals with their special needs. At some point, you cut your losses. It is a question of return on investment. The ultimate objective is to turn the student into a self-directed, life-long learner who takes responsibility for their own education. We now have unprecedented access to information - more than at any other time in history. Ignorance is the result of a string of bad choices and the individual bears significant responsibility.

Technology is useful for E-Learning if used right

[Rtarara]

This is actually my field. Basically, it all comes down to teacher training. There are many very valuable ways to use iPads or netbooks in a classroom. Interactive instruction IS more effective than the traditional lecture model. Teachers just need to learn how to design interactive instruction. An iPad should never be used as a note-taking device in an elementary school classroom. It can be used to access the internet for webquests and interactive project making. There are a lot of great apps that teach a large number of spelling or math skills. There are more for younger children that deal in shapes and colors. These can be used at home and are fun, that is one of the areas where an iPad shines. A lot of the time homework is just a way to grade how good of parents a child has. If a great piece of interactive instruction has been designed, then students won't need help on it. I am trained to design such things (there really is a lot to it), but teachers only get one course in how to use technology and older teachers likely had none. It takes a lot of time and teachers don't have have the time or knowledge to do it themselves. They will get the funding to get iPads, but no money to buy useful apps. There would be great learning taking place with these devices, if the infrastructure was in place. It isn't. You have to have the hardware, the software, the training AND the time to make it work. It is rare to see of of those things come together.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[vtcodger]

I worked for a number of years in a K-8 school. My opinion. Computers aren't useless, but for the current state of things, there are plenty of things for which they are not an answer. First of all, the teachers need computers as do the administrators. As a practical matter, teachers are tied to their classrooms for much of the day. They need a networked computer and a printer.

Students? Computers are somewhat of a challenge to kids who do not know their alphabet and can not read. OTOH computers can be very useful in 2nd-4th grade. There are a gazillion little programs (Many of which are MSDOS or Windows 3 based and will not run on "Modern Computer Hardware" without an incredible amount of tinkering) that teach basic stuff like arithmetic, English grammar, some basic science, some history. Allowing students to spend part of their day exploring this stuff at their own pace is probably a good idea.

Older students? With rare exceptions, the only thing computers provide is word processing, spell checking, and a refuge from reality. Nothing wrong with any of that -- within limits.

And for the one student in 10 or 20 with exceptional skills/interest in some specific area -- computers, chemistry, physics, art, literature ... anything but playground skills -- computers can be (but often aren't) a gateway to knowledge. That's especially true I think in schools systems with large class sizes and limited resources. I don't think this is being adequately explored.

But handing everyone an ipad or kindle or whatever and expecting technology to work miracles. That's ludicrous.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[modmans2ndcoming]

is that a joke?

Huge government investment in education in the 50's and 60's is what gave us the high achievement we experienced at that point in time.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[uniquename72]

If the teacher doesn't know how to use a smartboard, all involved will suffer. Having a teacher using tech products who doesn't know anything about technology is like having a teacher using textbooks who can't figure out what a book is. A good teacher is an expert not only in the field they're teaching, but in the tools they're using to teach. That doesn't mean they need to know everything about the technology -- they just need to know what it does so they can use it effectively, and how it works so they can troubleshoot if something goes wrong.

I went to grad school almost entirely online. It was very challenging, but I learned just as much as if I'd been in the classroom (not least because, in many cases, I was -- just virtually). I also had a few professors who had no understanding of the technology -- their classes were usually just a waste of time. Some of them had to have WebCT sites, and they'd do such a piss poor job of creating a functional information architecture that actually doing the work meant calling them at home and walking them through using the software (that was 8 years ago, btw. Today every professor at my university has to have an online presence, and it's the same. Some get it and some refuse.)

So to the OP I say this: If ALL the kids did was play games, the fault is with your wife. She wasn't using the tool effectively, and had no control over her classroom.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[cdrguru]

Popular culture in the 1950s showed very clearly the value of education - you got good grades, got a good job and were successful. In the late 1960s and 1970s the popular culture turned and hasn't turned back. Today the idea of getting good grades in school marks you as a "nerd" and a social outcast. The value of education today is far, far lower than it was 60 years ago and the estimation of that value is purely from popular culture.

It doesn't matter how much is spent on educating children if the children view the entire process as a waste of their time. They want to get out and play video games and chat on the Internet. You might think that textual communication would reinforce good grammer and spelling - but no, modern text communication eschews all grammer and spelling in favor of "new rules". The end result is that if they can string some words together it is good enough.

The other problem is that to a certain extent the children today are right. There are no high paying jobs waiting for them all if they get good grades. They have college to look forward to at either a massively overcrowded state school that is simply interested in processing them in and out or a private school where they (or their parents) will likely never pay off the massive loans. If they are accepted, which isn't a given. The state schools are still tossing out 25-35% of the student body during the first year because they can't function in a college environment. There is no sure guarantee of employment even if you are successful in college.

But the worse tragedy is the students that get suckered into the "knowledge economy" when they are mentally incapable of dealing with high levels of abstraction. You know that somewhere around 40-50% of people really do require something to hold in their hands, right? That for them trying to deal with abstract concepts is the same as most Westerners trying to learn Chinese. We used to have good paying factory jobs and skilled tradesmen. Today there are few factories and the idea of someone trying to learn to be a sheet metal worker, a plumber or an electrician is almost a cruel joke. Schools aren't set up to teach these people, even the US President thinks everyone should go to college and be a "knowledge worker", and where there were programs for leaning to be a skilled tradesman today there is ... nothing.

We have tried to remake society in an image that is a false reflection of where we want to be. Sorry, but people aren't wired that way. We are clearly headed for a major shift. Maybe everything will collapse in 2012 and we won't have to worry about it anymore.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[cdrguru]

Today in inner-city schools in the US the majority of the students would be moved to a boot-camp like school in your view. That is unrealistic.

Out in the suburbs it is almost as bad with many of the students not being distruptive or violent but just not caring about what is going on. They are going through the motions, pretending to be involved. End result is they are going to go nowhere but their expectation is that they would go nowhere anyway.

We have created a culture that views education as a waste of time, teachers as enforcers of authoritarians bent on subugation of the children and that the future for most is rather bleak. The only escape from this is luck - like winning the lottery - or some slim chance of success in a very rarified environment. Success in life can be had by the lucky criminals that stay out of prison, by million-dollar sports figures and just about nobody else. Nothing is gained by education or hard work - it is all the luck of the draw. We have spent the last 50 years or so promoting this view of life in the Western world and it has certainly taken root.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[Anonymous Coward]

Frankly, any electronic device given to children will be used for things other than it's intended function.

Give a kid a calculator and time how long it takes them to write "Boobless" on it.
We got given TI-83's for our Higher Maths class (16-17 y/o) and myself and a couple of friends learned to programme for it, got a C for Maths, but got an easy A for Computer Studies.
With something like an iPad, which is designed purely to consume information, children won't learn anything from it unless it's locked down even further and disallow the installing of applications entirely.
If all you're doing is giving the child an iPad to take notes, then it certainly isn't E-Learning in any way shape or form.
E-Learning should actually be a piece of software or hardware that actually teaches something. Not just as a glorified notepad.

As someone who develops E-Learning software, we are rarely called to actually build something for children. I think in the 4 years I've worked here I've done two projects aimed at children and both were on the subject of Environmental Awareness and Renewable Energy (Although slightly more involved than just Solar Panels Good, Fossil Fuels bad), as opposed to any of the core subjects. It was incredibly difficult to make it engaging for them. There's been a few times when the clients who've commissioned these projects don't actually understand how boring their subject matter is. The project brief essentially consisted of vomitting walls of text at children in between mini-games. We had to explain to these people - those people who actually *teach* children - that Kids can't learn like that. We convinced them to turn their content into a free-form exploration game, where a) the content was simplified and all the complicated words were removed, b) kids got points for discovering things, c) kids could choose things for themselves, engaging them in the process.

These are the same people trumpeting iPads as the solution to all their problems. I was shocked at how disconnected some of these people are from the kids they're teaching.

I honestly believe that E-Learning-as-games work quite well if done right, especially for children.
I remember when I was a kid my mum bought some E-learning software for the Commodore 64, Fun School and I loved it. It was done really well and I enjoyed alot of the games in it.

Nowadays, since children grow up with games, and tend to see anything cheap, or graphically inferior as unworthy of their time, makes developing E-Learning software for kids harder. In some ways, the rise of Facebook games is bringing the expectation bar down for the next generation, so my job might actually get alot easier. Since teaching core-skills like Mathematics, English, Science, History etc to children takes alot more work and alot more thought than classroom teaching. Which also equates to alot more development time and thus, alot more money to pay. So if you want to come under budget, or to run on the archaic school hardware, the first thing to suffer is normally the graphical quality.