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Charlie Kindel On Why Windows Phone Still Hasn't Taken Off

Posted by Soulskill on from the need-a-bigger-booster dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft's weak share in the mobile phone market can be attributed to its mishandling of industry politics, not inferior technology or features, according to ex-Windows Phone evangelist Charlie Kindel. Microsoft's traditional strategy of going over the heads of hardware vendors to meet the needs of consumers and application developers does not work in the phone market, says Kindel, where the handset makers and carriers have the biggest say in determining the winners (Apple is an exception). Not everybody agrees with Kindel's analysis. Old-timers may remember Kindel, who recently resigned from Microsoft, from his days as developer relations guru for COM/OLE/Active-X."

23 of 397 comments (clear)

  1. And the other reason is... by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Fool me once, shame on you, lock me into an inferior OS twice, shame on the whole industry.

    1. Re:And the other reason is... by JDAustin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The thing is Windows Mobile is not a inferior OS (for once). But MS's history has burned so many in the past that people are just turned off by the idea of a Windows mobile phone.

    2. Re:And the other reason is... by GeXX · · Score: 5, Informative

      You do know that android phones have their own gps in the units, google maps has offline pre-caching mode, and there are other offline maps http://www.mapdroyd.com/ that can be used. I have used google maps while navigating a lake where there was no cell signal, and it worked just fine.

    3. Re:And the other reason is... by poetmatt · · Score: 5, Informative

      What?
      Let's start with the article. The article's focus is completely off - there's nothing windows can do to simply be relevant, and focusing on "how can we get marketshare" shows a complete and utter misunderstanding of the entire market and asking the wrong question. The first question should be "how can we make a great phone with a great experience". Not "why aren't people buying this"? That by itself has already been answered, which is significant market data research given in the form of a failure in the market. Had they not been moronic they'd have gone back the drawing board and come up with better competition by now. This shows that they don't want to look at their own market data and are still in the "la la la our products are great" stage of denial, aka "we're trying to do the apple reality distortion technique".

      For your comments: Windows mobile is a subpar OS. Android is an infinitely moddable user interface but stock tends to be completely and utterly crap.

      Also, Gmail (and any email program) will cache the last 20 or 50 emails so that you can open them and read them without any data connection whatsoever. By the time you've received notice of the emails they've already been preserved. You can create a draft with no connection, and it will pull the contacts from your contact list.

      The GPS works without any form of data, you can cache any area manually yourself or use an app that already has map info. This isn't any different than any other navigation device, whether a GPS device or a cellphone. Also, you have 3 forms of GPS (AGPS, S-GPS and location triangulation explicitly by mobile) as so it's practically impossible to not have a signal - even in the middle of a forest. you might not have a map, sure, but you will have gps and a compass.

      However, every phone's hardware is different, notably. If you had the samsung vibrant for example, you basically have a not completely accurate GPS. So every phone will be different in how well it works.

    4. Re:And the other reason is... by Kazin · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm not a user of Windows Phone, but I did just port an Android app I've written to WP7, and in doing so, I learned quite a bit about it... From my point of view (been an Android developer before the first phones were released), it seems like WP8 will be very nice, but WP7 is still lacking in a lot of ways. A few things I noticed:
          - there's not a whole lot of useful multitasking you can do right now, so complex apps that use background services are right out.
          - you can't disable the on-screen keyboard from activating when a text box is focused, so if you have a box that the user can select text from or position the cursor in, you always get the OSK covering half of your UI
          - the screen layout designer is difficult to work with, and doesn't seem like it has many features for supporting different resolutions, MS sure does love their absolute-positioning grid layouts
          - there doesn't seem to be a debug log viewer available in the development tools... or maybe the OS has no logging at all?

      I suspect an end user won't really notice a lot of my complaints, but they're there, and the whole experience was a bit disappointing to me, despite my preference for C# over Java.

    5. Re:And the other reason is... by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The short question and answer is "How can we make people want this?" The answer is unknown to me. Apple took that approach and it worked out great. Of course, there was an incredibly charismatic front man explaining to everyone that they need the next i-thing. Microsoft doesn't do that so much. They killed the competition and so they only need to use their legal muscle to convince people they need to buy their monopoly product... in fact, they need to buy it twice if they are a corporation. (Turns out volume licensed Windows is an 'upgrade' and requires a previous instance of Windows... an OEM version of Windows... so buy it once from the OEM, then buy it again so you can legally deploy images.)

      Microsoft hasn't ever had a charismatic face man. Bill Gates, the celebrity that he is, simply doesn't qualify I'm afraid. And any awe and wonder Microsoft might have inspired in the past hasn't appeared for the past... what? 20 years almost? Has it really been that long? Yeah... it really has.

      SMALL DEVICES is simply not something that Microsoft can do! There was a time when they could, but it just doesn't seem possible any longer. The bloat has made them so fat and heavy they can't move without a quad core and 8GB RAM. Yes, please disagree with me. I know you want to. Whatever Microsoft has right now will never see an effective light of day. It was rejected before anyone ever heard of it.

    6. Re:And the other reason is... by jbolden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course, there was an incredibly charismatic front man explaining to everyone that they need the next i-thing.

      The incredibly charismatic front man also figured out how to take advantage of the mobile platform and offer services that no one else was offering. There hadn't really been a handheld revolution since Palm and BlackBerry.

      Apple didn't win of charisma they won of the advantages of an integrated total experience.

    7. Re:And the other reason is... by Bert64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The iPhone sold because it offered something that other phones did not... It was appealing to users, and although it didn't really offer anything new it did existing things like email and web browsing better than other phones on the market.

      Windows phone has nothing to offer users that they can't get from an Android or iOS based device...

      On the other hand, it's called "windows" which paints the device in a negative light...
      It reminds users of windows mobile, which was an awful platform that users generally hated.
      It gives users an incorrect belief that they will be able to run windows applications on it, just as windows mobile did, and users will be disappointed.
      It creates an association with the desktop/laptop windows brand, a brand which is generally disliked and is associated with crashing, malware and various other nasties... It's tolerated on computers because users don't see any alternative or are locked in, but alternatives are well known and readily available on phones.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    8. Re:And the other reason is... by InsGadget · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The thing is Windows Mobile is not a inferior OS (for once). But MS's history has burned so many in the past that people are just turned off by the idea of a Windows mobile phone.

      This is pretty much the long and short of it.

      Also, WP7 is just competing against more mature offerings, with more features to entice new users. WP7 is quite nice to use (I have a Samsung Focus), and it does most tasks well, but it still falls behind when compared to Android and iPhone in a lot of tasks, simply because it's younger.

      IMO, WP7 (vs. Android or iPhone) is ideal for 3 types of people:
      - If you want a really simple but still powerful smartphone, then check out WP7. iPhone is a very close 2nd in this category, but WP7 is incredibly simple to use.
      - If you are heavy into Facebook or Twitter, then you should look at WP7. The Social hubs are unmatched.
      - If you love finding and downloading new music, then you should check out Zune Pass + WP7. Although they did just get rid of their $15/month-but-with-10-free-songs deal, the $10/month for a huge music library you can download to your hearts content is still quite nice.

      Otherwise, honestly, you will probably find more things to like about an Android or iPhone. Although you should still check out WP7 and see if the UI can swing you like it did me.

    9. Re:And the other reason is... by Uberbah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ah, another anti-fanboy. Your complaints are false and intellectually lazy - see the iPod, which was the first MP3 player to combine a micro-hard drive with a fast interface, just for starters.

      If marketing was the only thing Apple had going for it's products, they would have been overtaken by now. If you don't like their products, Jobs probably would have been the first one to tell you to go right ahead and buy from one of their competitors.

    10. Re:And the other reason is... by MHolmesIV · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, when the iPhone launched, it had no app-store, or third party apps at all. Both Blackberry and Windows Mobile of the time did have third party apps. It was severely limited in functionality: It didn't do turn by turn directions (My 2003 dumbphone did that), it didn't do MMS (ditto), it was 2G when all it's competitors were 3G already, It had no keyboard, the virtual keyboard was portrait only, no video recording, no stereo bluetooth, a headphone jack that pretty much only worked with it's own headphones, and pretty bad call quality.

      Note these are all features it's competitors of the day already had.

      What it _did_ have was a stellar music and videos interface, beautiful industrial design combined with excellent software integration, and a multi-touch capacitive screen. Apparently that was enough.

    11. Re:And the other reason is... by cbhacking · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's iOS-style "multitasking" for the most part (as distinguished from desktop/WinMo/Android-style). You can technically abuse the background task APIs to get almost true multitasking (or, with sufficient permissions, modify the app-backgrounding suspend/dehydration behavior to get full multitasking), but that's really only useful for homebrew - Microsoft won't accept an app that does such things into the Marketplace.

      Marking a text box read-only should prevent the keyboard from showing up but still allow the user to select and copy text.

      The screen designer built into Visual Studio is a bit of pain. The one in Expression Blend (which is explicitly designed for XAML, and a version of it specifically for WP7 XAML is included with the dev kit) is much better, though it is a new UI to learn. As for resolutions, WP7 only allows a single resolution - 800x480 - so the concerns you have coming from Android aren't currently relevant. If/when they allow other resolutions, my guess is that legacy apps will just use the hardware scaler (which is required on WP7 devices) to enlarge the screen contents to the new resolution, while new apps will ahve the option of targeting 1200x720 or whatever new resolution they decide to allow.

      Visual Studio has a debug-output view, scrollable with history (I don't know if it can be redirected into a file, never tried). It's quite possible to print debug messages from within an app; they will only show up when the debugger is attached (of course) and appear in a VS window/tab. It's also possible to use MessageBox to show debug messages during development, though that's a hacky solution (it works without the phone being connected to the debugger, though). As for OS-level logging, it's not visible. That shouldn't be a problem when developing sandboxed apps, though.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    12. Re:And the other reason is... by gmhowell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I am an Apple fanboi, and I just gotta say you aren't quite accurate. Blackberry and some versions of WinMo had app stores prior to Apple's. OP was correct that Apple didn't do anything totally new, it did everything 'better'. And by 'better', I mean for most normal human beings, not slashdot troglodytes.

      One thing Apple did with the iPhone that my brother often mentions, but never comes up here: broke the backs of the carriers. No more shovelware. No more locked down shit. No more proprietary music/video sources.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    13. Re:And the other reason is... by PRMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I disagree. There was a time when Microsoft phones were starting to gain on Palm. At this point, I had a problem with installing an app on my PC and then on the phone. It just simply never made it to the phone. While on the phone with support, I asked the guy why I couldn't just download and install software on the phone itself, since it already had an internet connection.

      His response: Nobody would want to do that.

      Apple's customers did want that, and they got it.

      So, I disagree that if Microsoft had done it, it wouldn't have been well-received. If they had made an app store (or at least a format that installed directly on the phone that people could have put on their websites) and had made the interface so that everything wasn't buried 3 dialogs deep ON A PHONE!!!, they would have won the marketplace.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    14. Re:And the other reason is... by errandum · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Profitable for the user? Is that a feature?

      Regulated, Amazon App store. Windows Marketplace is also regulated.

      The thing is, profitable or not, most of the main applications now support both systems. If I'm the end user I don't really care where I play angry birds nor do I care that Rovio did more money on iOS than Android (free app with adds btw).

      And I asked features that no one else has. I could say iOS lacks a truly free Market where anyone can publish their apps without fear of rejection or where your business model can be decided by yourself and not Apple. Obviously both approaches have their advantages but that's not a "feature", especially one that everyone should aspire to have.

  2. Windows Phone is Superior; Why Hasn’t it Tak by teh31337one · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wait, why is it superior?

    Windows Phone is Superior; Why Hasn’t it Taken Off

    ex-Windows Phone evangelist Charlie Kindel

    Oh, right

  3. Well.. by Penguinisto · · Score: 5, Informative

    Well, let's see here...

    * The delivery is about three-four years too late
    * World+dog who has used Windows-based phones in the past have experience with WMP 6.5 (*shudder*)
    * App developers are looking at 'safe' (marketshare-wise) platforms to write apps for. iOS and Android are among them, while WP7 is not.
    * The UI tiles may be pretty, but that whole right-hand side of the screen is sitting there unused, making the whole thing look narrower, and therefore smaller
    * The ads aren't quite cutting it, and tend to be (IMHO) full of snafus. For instance, the latest sends the subtle message that only whipped boyfriends willing to wear yoga tights will use a Windows Phone.

    There's lots more, but those stand out immediately...

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    1. Re:Well.. by nwf · · Score: 4, Funny

      For instance, the latest sends the subtle message that only whipped boyfriends willing to wear yoga tights will use a Windows Phone.

      In all fairness, if they could garner half of those, they'd double their market share.

      --
      I don't know, but it works for me.
  4. Re:I just dont care about Face Book. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Do what I do. It's a fairly complicated process, but the results are well worth it.

    1) Don't open the Facebook application.

    This is all from memory, so hopefully I didn't skip anything!

  5. Its not surprising everyone disagrees by rathaven · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The facts are probably that WP was:
    a) Late to market
    b) Lacking developer support as many had already moved to iPhone or Android or developed mobile skills on these platforms
    c) Not allowing hardware manufacturers to best utilise existing hardware by being proscriptive
    d) Trying to be different after the market had already led in specific directions (iPhone then Android). Lets face it, it wasn't going to be easy to get in on this without using a similar interface to iPhone or a good weight of device support (Linux)
    e) Less than interesting on most of the original hardware
    f) Poor Marketting
    g) Leaving carriers being carriers - little value add and little gain.
    h) Using the names "Microsoft" and "Windows"


    Anyone think of any others? I think instead of arguing between posts I think we can just add a big list together, post it to Microsoft and see if they learn any lessons.

  6. Windows Phone 7 need to be more open.. by Pontiac · · Score: 4, Informative

    I tested a windows phone 7 device for my company..

    We don't allow storage of corporate data on 3rd party servers so right off the bat it's web based storage system was useless..
    The OS offers no USB storage options and no removable SD cards.
    It had no way to upload videos from the phone other then tethering it to PC and using the MS Zune app to download the off the phone.

    Overall we found the OS to be to restrictive for our needs and standardized on Android based phones.

    --
    If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. --Red Adair
  7. Re:What is the implication here? by bhcompy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Somehow bad? SOMEHOW? Obviously you've never worked with COM+ applications.

  8. Re:WP7 Is Garbage by recoiledsnake · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The UI is horrible.
    It's not open source.
    No one is making apps for it because it is dead in the market.
    You can't develop for it on OS X or Unix.
    You are forced to use Microsoft's shitty developer tools.

    But, hey!, it has connectivity with Microsoft's piece of shit last place console!

    LOL, fail.

    1. You may dislike the UI, but a lot of people love it because of the minimalism.

    2. Yes it's not Open Source.

    3. Sorry on this point, it just crossed 50,000 apps and the growth is accelerating http://www.wpcentral.com/windows-phone-marketplace-hits-50000-apps

    4. Yes no dev on OS X and Linux

    5. Microsoft's developer tools are no where close to shitty, they're simply the best in the industry (YMMV).

    6. The last point proves that you're a troll. XBox 360 is nowhere close to last place. It just had a record Thanksgiving beating all other consoles and they're flying off shelves thanks to Kinect and the new media features. Also, they're top on the biggest metric, the amount people spend money on, buying games.

    --
    This space for rent.