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Ask Slashdot: Handing Over Personal Work Without Compensation?
rsmith84 writes "I'm the Senior Systems administrator for a small trade college. When I was hired on, it was strictly for L3 related tasks such as advanced server administration, Exchange design and implementation, etc. They have no in-house programmers, no help desk software, and no budget to purchase one. I'm a moderate PHP and MySQL programmer on the side and am easily capable of writing something to meet their needs, but do not believe I should be A) asked to or B) required to, as my job description and employment terms are not based upon this skill set. I like a challenge, and since all of my goals outlined since my hire date have been met and exceeded, I have a lot of down time. So I wrote the application. It streamlines several critical processes, allows for a central repository of FAQ, and provides end users with access to multiple systems all in one place. I've kept a detailed time log of my work and feel I should be remunerated for the work before just handing over the code. The entire source was developed on personal equipment off company hours. My question is: what should I do? If they are willing to compensate me, I will gladly hand it over. However, it's been mentioned that, if I do the project, it is all but guaranteed that I will see no compensation. The application would streamline a lot of processes and take a lot of the burden off my team, freeing them up to handle what I deem to be more challenging items on their respective punch lists and a better utilization of their time and respective skills. I'm a firm believer in not getting 'something for nothing,' especially when the skills are above my pay grade."
That's the diff between a job and career. People with careers invest their personal time because the reward is you get promoted for doing great work.
...and you just need to eat it. Good things don't go unnoticed, though. It is these sorts of experiences that will separate you from the pack, later in your career. It will pay forward, one way or another. If you want to get paid, negotiate time at work to perform these tasks or don't do them. There are side-effects: once you make an app, you will be expected to support it forever... and likely you won't get any time to do that, either. I would make part of the agreement to hand over the code is that you will not support it.
You should do what's required to make your stuff work. Ask for credit later. Document it and do it right. Writing scripts is part of the job, and reducing burden for your team is also part of your job.
> no budget to purchase one
> all but guaranteed that I will see no compensation
If they didn't have the money to do it, and you were told that you wouldn't be paid for it, why would you expect to be paid for it?
Most organizations are not deserving of free work on the part of an employee, regardless of hourly or salaried compensation. The only two times I can think of that might warrant some kind of uncompensated work would be where either a a company is in trouble and employees pulling extra effort might save their jobs, or where the extra work is likely to result in a better position in the company.
I don't see either being the case in the way you describe it. If you can't do it on the clock or at the office, don't do it.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Got another job lined up? Trade colleges know working there beats the crap out of a real job (especially the cake schedule, we worked four-day weeks) and they can get replacements all day.
I'd use the app, and not disclose shit about it. If you get laid off they can write a support contract if they need to. Heck, customize everything you can to your benefit while you are there. All users want is an absence of hassle.
Hoard knowledge, make YOUR job smoother, look busy, and remember you are in an ACADEMIC environment. Play that game and don't pretend you aren't in a trade school.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Remember that if you hand it over, YOU will be expected to administer, troubleshoot, maintain, and improve a system that you did not and are not getting paid for. The only work around I see is for them to update your paygrade as renumeration then add those taskes to your new job description. Otherwise you are in for a trampling.
Silence is a state of mime.
You have no interest in the success of your company and you would hold this project over their heads to get a short-term payoff.
Sadly, if your employer was better to their employees, they might see the benefit it working as a team to make the company succeed.
Seems to me that neither of you have each others interests at heart. A good place to work would be one where I am striving to help the company succeed and my company is sharing is that success. Sounds like you need a new job.
BTW, you have added more work to your schedule fixing bugs and adding features to your "new system". Good luck with that!
Flexible bare-metal recovery for Linux/UNIX
You had best enjoy how much it made your job easier and document what you did for use when you interview for your next job.
OH! Welcome to the club!
You will find that we meet most nights, at the bar.
No brain, no pain.
You get promotions and raises by going above and beyond and making yourself valuable to the company. If you "stick to your pay grade" then that's all you'll ever be. When I look to promote someone I specifically look for things they've done to help the company/department. I look for innovation and drive. If you took the liberty to do it, you're reward is in the good faith you generate with your superiors. That will eventually pay off big when it comes time for a raise or promotion.
A job title and description is not a contract meaning "this is what I do and nothing else." If you choose to do nothing else, you'll never be noticed.
Did you write it to get compensated? Or did you write it to help your team?
If you wrote it hoping to get paid and they say they won't pay you then put it on the shelf and forget about it.
If you wrote it to help your team ...streamline a lot of processes and take a lot of the burden off my team, freeing them up to handle what I deem to be more challenging items on their respective punch lists and a better utilization of their time and respective skills then hand it over knowing that you've done something to make your workplace a little better. Next time you have a performance review with your boss make sure it is discussed that you did this on your own time and that the staff are benefiting from it. It will only help your career to show your employers that you are willing to go a little further than expected.
But, if you are one of those people that just work 9 - 5 and walk out the door at the end of the day not thinking about or not caring about your job (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, different people have different priorities) then shelve it and forget about it.
I got my job by going above and beyond, programming when I was supposed to be simply a walking reference book. It made my job faster, and more available. The more I automated, the more time I had to automate more things.
I got hired on a help desk team, 12 or so people like me who just wrote stuff and gradually became a recognized team. The team didn't set out to get recognized, just get faster. Management did not realize how important it was to automate until it was already done. Then we were indispensible, actually before I even joined the team.
But, they didn't pay to retain, and the team fell apart. We were all essentially help desk people doing real programming work, above our pay grade. Many people went for better opportunities when upper upper management had to meet stock-related goals, some involuntarily.
You can know the people are better off, no matter what you get out of it. You can know when you leave, the system you built will be virtually unmaintainable even if you document the crap out of it, because whoever tries to replace you statistically won't be a good code reader. You can know that you could have helped, but didn't because it didn't suit your philosophy.
I suggest proposing the system, with statistics on how much money will be saved, and most likely how many jobs can be eliminated as a result. If it is approved, negotiate payment and come up with the solution well under the deadline. If not, do what you feel is right.
About 6 months later, I had a 500 dollar bonus on my paycheck and I was bumped up a step in my pay grade. It was little, but I certainly appreciated it. At no point did I think, "I could probably double dip as a consultant here." Had they asked me to do it on my own time, things may have gone differently.
Not offering any suggestions on what to do one way or another, but that's my experience.
Two facts that are obvious to anybody (with experience):
1. The cost of maintaining the one off custom software will far exceed the cost of buying the canned software. Even assuming competent development. Risk is high.
2. The boss doesn't have budget to pay for the canned software. He won't have budget to maintain the 'solution' hacked up by the new kid.
He won't pay the kid for the software. That's a given.
The question is: Should the kid find a new job if the boss if fool enough to accept the software under any terms? I say yes, such a boss will teach the kid only bad habits.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
You say that it "isn't part of your job description" and that you've got tons of down time, but you developed this on your own time and equipment. That all sounds like a monumental cop-out to me. If I were your boss and I saw a posting like this, I'd probably fire you just as a matter of principle. That whole concept of not-in-my-job-description is just so much crap. Odds are very good that you did plenty of thinking about whatever this solution was during your copious down time during work hours, and in all probability, you spend plenty of work time doing things that polish the skills you used to build your solution, even if you didn't actually work on that specific solution at your desk during business hours. It'd be one thing if this was a general-purpose solution to a common problem that wasn't specifically related to your job - then, by all means, quit and productize the thing, and keep the fruits of your labour to yourself. But this sounds much more like a custom solution to a very specific local problem and you are just trying to muscle some cash out of your employer for work you've already performed that has no utility outside of your job. Imagine if every software engineer tried to bill his boss for the thoughts he had on the drive to or from work, or in the shower, or wherever. Most of us do the vast majority of our creative thinking away from our desks. Your employer didn't require you to do the work and you sure as heck aren't entitled to compensation for it. By all means, refuse to turn it over, but as an employer, if I've got an employee that has a better way to do something who refuses to do it that way because it 'isn't part of his job description,' then I won't keep that employee around for long. Just long enough to have HR deliver his severance information, basically. Fundamentally, if you've got copious down time, then you should have been spending that down time automating the task that you chose to do in your off-hours instead, no matter what your job description says. Look at it this way - in the long term, doing that will actually provide even more down time, so it is a net win for everyone.
a senior sysadmin should expect to write some in-house tools, yes.
Does the software have any applications outside your organization? If so, you may want to at least work out the details so you own the copyrights, even if your company ends up not paying you.
You're looking at this the wrong way... You have obviously done the right thing by taking the initiative in the first place, but now, I hate to say, your attitude is all wrong.
Here's how it works:
1) You get some job
2) You "beast" it. That is... you do what you're asked very well and you take the initiative to use the extra skills you have to wow everyone by changing everything
3) You ensure that it is known that you are responsible for your work
4a) They offer you a payrise or more responsibility and pay
4b) They don't, you stick it on your resume and you get a better job somewhere else with a beamingly positive reference
Do the right thing, make sure there are no problems of attribution and it will pay off in the end. Do not crap up your reputation by trying to strongarm more money out of them upfront. Keep a good attitude and it will pay off in the end. If I had tried to extract extra pay for going above and beyond every time I did so in my career, I can all but guarantee I would not have done as well as I have.
Do interesting stuff, be unbelievably useful. The money will follow, it always does.
My thoughts too, but it could go either way -
"I have this stuff I wrote in my spare time, it would make everyone's life easier, wanna buy it?"
Responses are probably going to be as varied as -
I have personally seen "Sure, if the rate is reasonable and we get the code and copyrights", but the guy that wrote it was senior staff and had been with the company at least a decade. I have no idea how often the others occur, likely they're not talked about so often.
Me, I like to keep any personal coding and company work in completely separate domains, so that there's no question of ownership. I also make sure that any contract I sign does not try to claim rights over stuff I do in my spare time. I'll sign limited non-competes (i.e. promise not to release competing products during the time I'm employed, this provision to end when employment ends), but not more than that.
If I read this correctly:
* you saw a place where some software could really help;
* you knew they wouldn't buy it;
* you were told they wouldn't pay you to write it; and
* it wasn't in your job description to write it (side note: seriously?)...but
* you wrote it anyway; and
* now what?
With all of this, I'm left wondering why you wrote it? You say you like a challenge, but was this the only way? You further write:
am easily capable of writing something to meet their needs, but do not believe I should be A) asked to or B) required to, as my job description and employment terms are not based upon this skill set
Well, hey there, genius - you said you weren't asked to, or required to. So, again - why'd you do it? What did you think would happen? What did you expect? Your whole story really confuses me.
Oh yes, to get back to a recommendation about what to do: I don't have one. Your attitude is petty and small-minded, and I can't give any suggestion that would fit in with that attitude. If you had some decency, you'd go to your management and show them what you'd done, maybe get some kudos, and use it to boost your resume. Taking initiative looks good. If you had some entrepreneurial inclination, you'd start a small company and market it.
But I think you'd rather just maintain a constantly surly attitude and fold your arms and huff "I'm not gonna get paid for it? Well, screw you". Squandered opportunities, dude. Sometimes you have to take a risk, you know?
This is a silly thing to say. All important data should be backed up. mySQL is as good as anything.
There was a guy just like you at my job a few years ago. He created a lousy wiki-ish software to maintain ISO-9000 procedures, on his own time, and he offered to sell it to the employer, who declined. Then he "licensed" it for free (which was a huge PITA for everybody) and left a few months later to peddle his masterpiece. Last time I checked he was fixing beepers and unlocking playstations in a shitty electronics shop.
On the other hand I know another guy who created a "suboptimal" Access horrorware to deal with complex inventory management. He not only gave it for free to the employer, but happily supported end users for a while. This was basically a POC and later a budget was allocated to create a more robust software; the guy did not have the skill set to write that one but he was identified as a SME to define requirements and provide guidance, and a year down the road he had his own team to manage the inventory project.
Your software is worth nothing, it's your experience that is valuable. My advice: give your code for free to the employer, call it a pilot, and even if this leads nowhere, it will be a good bullet point on your resume.
lucm, indeed.
Entitlement or exploitation? It's a fine line. Would you say the same thing if the terms were not monetary but instead based on the barter system and other goods were exchanged? I already have a military family background. I'm being practical. Why should one benefit at the other's expense without exchanging the means for the knowledge and expertise? They hired me and outlined my job description to the T. I abide by it. The fact that I have the ability to go beyond my job scope should be the merits used for salary negotiations. But as raises have been completely shut down for all non C-level people, what's the point of going beyond the scope? And don't feed me any of this greater good or terrible economy crap. The only way to get through a terrible economy in through self preservation and accumulating the necessities to weather the storm.
Perhaps the wages or treatment of staff is particularly poor
If a trade college is similar to a university then the wages will not be great but the treatment of staff will be very good. One of the main attractions of working at a University is that it gives you more freedom to do your own things and show everyone what you really can do. Assuming it goes well you can then get hired by industry with a glowing resume which shows what you can really do or you find that you really like having the freedom and you stay on in academia - at least that's how it generally works in Canada.
However with this sort of entitlement attitude I'd suggest the OP moves into industry ASAP - part of the compensation - and expectation - of an academic environment is flexibility and freedom. If you want a 9-to-5 job with fixed tasks and concrete job descriptions then academia is not for you!
Entitlement or exploitation? It's a fine line. Would you say the same thing if the terms were not monetary but instead based on the barter system and other goods were exchanged? I already have a military family background. I'm being practical. Why should one benefit at the other's expense without exchanging the means for the knowledge and expertise? They hired me and outlined my job description to the T. I abide by it. The fact that I have the ability to go beyond my job scope should be the merits used for salary negotiations. But as raises have been completely shut down for all non C-level people, what's the point of going beyond the scope? And don't feed me any of this greater good or terrible economy crap. The only way to get through a terrible economy in through self preservation and accumulating the necessities to weather the storm.
Let me get this straight:
1. You weren't tasked with or asked to create this application
2. You went ahead and did it anyway
3. You feel you should be compensated for work done entirely on your own initiative and without any request or direction from management?
That sounds an kind of like the guy who walks up to your car at the red light, washes your windshield and then asks for money. Even if the window was dirty, no one asked the guy to wash your windshield. Now you want someone to pay you for work they didn't ask to be done that you took upon yourself to do.
I'd say you have four choices (I won't address copyright or licensing as that's not what you talk about):
1. Ask for compensation and provide the application to your employer if you feel the offered remuneration is appropriate
2. Ask for compensation and provide the application to your employer regardless of compensation
3. Ask for compensation and withhold the application if you feel the offered remuneration isn't appropriate
4. Don't involve your employer with this application at all and then do whatever you think appropriate insofar as selling it on the open market, open-sourcing it, etc.
Because it was not requested or required, your employer is under no obligation to purchase the application from you, nor to compensate you for your time in developing the application, even if the application provides as much value as you say.
If I was your boss and I felt the application might have merit, I'd have you pilot it and then implement it in production if it passed muster. I'd then say, "thanks very much for this great tool. Now get back to work." I'd probably (if it were within my means) try to get you a (bigger) bonus and/or some extra time off and it would definitely improve your annual review, but I'm not going to pay one of my employees contracting fees just because he took it on himself to implement a tool that benefits him and his team.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree here
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
Really? You think its like a window washer doing the work on your car first then asking for money? Perhaps I misunderstand the current situation, but he doesn't seem to have installed it and the company doesn't seem to be using it already. I think it is much more akin to the guy who I pay to do my lawn deciding on his own time to design an irrigation system on his own time then comes to me and says he has designed it, and he would like to implement it but he wants to charge me for the design time. I can choose to pay or not, if I don't he doesn't owe me the system. He simply wasted his time designing something I didn't want to purchase. Again this assumes that the submitter has NOT deployed the system already, if he has its a whole different situation much closer to your perception.
I don't know understand why this is so complicated. Perhaps I misunderstood some part of the summary.
If you've developed something useful on your own time, well outside of any contractual obligations or restrictions, then you now have a product to sell. The terms and conditions for sale or use are up to you.
But if the boss didn't contract you to write it, they're also under no obligation to purchase it. So you pitch it, and now you're over a barrel if they know it's whatever they offer or nothing. If they say "no, we don't have the money", then you're just plain out of luck. You've gambled with your time and lost, unless you can then sell it elsewhere.
Don't like that arrangement? Next time secure a contract with a well defined scope and terms for compensation before you start work.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree here
i think you answered the question perfectly, but seemed to give the OP some meaning that he didn't have.
clearly he wants to know how to avoid getting rolled by his boss, and maximise his profits..
basically. tell your boss you've found a solution for an ongoing problem to your job, however its outside of your scope to impliment. you could ask for either an amendment to your contract (and a payrise) for the extra responsibility OR to sell the solution outright to your boss. but make sure he(/she) understands that there is no free lunches. basically talk to your boss as if someone else is selling the software and you're just found a good "deal",
On the whole I agree. However, he can't "get rolled by his boss" because his boss never asked him to perform this task. If the application actually had value and the OP offered it up as one more thing he's done to exceed expectations, and his boss was feeling generous (assuming there were funds to be generous with -- which the OP himself said there were not), he might get a bonus or even a promotion. That said, the organization is under no obligation to purchase *anything*, nor are they necessarily bound to pay any additional salary. As a general rule, exempt employees (which it sounds like the OP is) are paid the same regardless of whether that work is in the scope of their job description or how many hours they work.
As for "maximising his profits," this guy is an *employee*. If one of my employees tried (to use your term) to "roll" me by trying to sell me an application that is clearly directly related to his day-to-day responsibilities, regardless of the location or timing of the software development, I would start the process of replacing that employee. Why? Because the whole scenario just screams that this guy is only interested in squeezing whatever he thinks he can out of the organization. That makes him untrustworthy..
I'm guessing (based on the 's' in maximise) that you aren't an American. In the US, holding your employer over a barrel like that is usually frowned upon (I'm guessing that barring any laws to the contrary where you are, it's the same there) and, as a rule, the only compensation you can expect is your final paycheck and an escort to the building exit..
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
If it's small, simple and well documented the exact opposite is the case. I've seen examples in every workplace I've been in since about 1987.
Also make sure to read the nitty-gritty of your contract carefully. Many companies I've worked for try to sneak in clauses claiming they own the copyright for any and all code you write while employed by them on the clock or off, at the office or at home. I've had to ask for such clauses to be amended in the past. If you haven't been careful, they might just already legally own the software you wrote..
Are you be chance a recent college graduate? You seem to have a naive, idealistic view of the world typically reserved for recent college graduates. Though to be fair, a lot of Slashdotters of all ages do as well.
Let me help you out. Truth does not matter. Should does not matter. All that matters is reality.
For what it's worth, I agree with you completely. That's exactly how things should work, and in the case of salaried employees the employer should not care if the work is getting done in forty hours or fourteen. However, we do not live in a world where the employer and the employee have equal power or even equal respect, and that has been exacerbated even further by a terrible economy. If you operate in the world of how things should go, reality is going to give you a harsh reality check. If you are in a position to lose this job to make a stand for how things should work, by all means. It doesn't sound that way, however.
And you don't think that handing your employer something awesome and not demanding to be paid for it would constitute a means of self-preservation?
As others have pointed out, there are a number of reasons to can you already -- and I'm ignoring the part where you come off as a self-entitled twat. If you have "lots of down time" there is a definite interest in re-evaluating whether or not you're needed for the time you do spend working. I won't bring up the question of what you do when you're not doing real work or why you feel that twiddling your thumbs for those hours is not only proper, but that you should then come to me with this tool you made sure to write on your own time just to get more cash out of me when you know it's not there. For that matter, if you did come to me and even if I did buy the software, it would just make you more expendable. There is always a risk of automating yourself right out of a job, and you're apparently not doing that much work to begin with. Any fraction may tip the scales, and that has nothing to do with whether or not the work you are completing is done well.
And then, of course, we come to reality. You come to me, demand I pay you. I say I can't, which you already knew--or should have, anyway. You then...what? Tell me to fuck myself and stick the software in a drawer? You seem very self-confident with your grasp on things, so let me ask you this: Can you think of a single way to get yourself fired faster? Oh, maybe not right away. Maybe not even directly because of it. But you just walked into your bosses office with a sign around your neck saying that you are the most expendable person next time they need to fire somebody. Even in a good economy, few employers would put up with that level of self-centeredness. We're not in a good economy. We're in an economy where there would be a line outside your bosses door with candidates to replace you before you had cleaned out your desk -- candidates who would happily write this software, give it to the company and consider themselves lucky to have had the opportunity. It's sad that being a "team player" has come to mean that you do everything your bosses want and they do nothing in return for you, but that is the reality in the many--and probably most--cases.
You're not getting money for this. That ship not only sailed, it was never in your port to begin with. Trying is only likely to get you screwed even harder. Realistically you have two choices at this point: One, pretend you never wasted your time writing this software. Do whatever you want with it, so long as your bosses never find out it exists. Shred it, GPL it, see if it meets the needs of some other organizations. Or two, walk into y
"But as raises have been completely shut down for all non C-level people, what's the point of going beyond the scope? "
So, knowing this, why go beyond that scope in the first place? It sounds to me that you wrote a program that would make your own life easier. Having done so, you expect them to pay for it, even though writing it was outside of your job description and even though it was neither asked nor demanded.
And I'm with several of the others. If I had an employee who was always careful never anything more than necessary, or who would never do anything not spelled out on his job description, then that employee would soon be looking for another job. He's the one that's exploiting the situation, and the employer.
A good employer-employee relationship is symbiotic, not adversarial.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
This guys is obviously not a programmer. As an experienced programmer, I try to write code that will be so good, it will solve the problem that I am being presented with, that I may move on to new problems and projects and never have to revisit something twice.
This NEVER happens. It may be days, months, or weeks later but they come back. Sometimes its a stray bug I missed. More often, the client/user has come up with some new feature request that they just cannot live without and they must have.
In any event, the iron clad rule of development is: you write it in a week, you support it for eternity. So with that in mind, give them your code. If you wrote anything worthwhile, they will come back with more requests and then you can negotiate for raises and such. If you do this, don't go for the jugular in your demands. Negotiate small projects and raises. Again, over time, as they see your value you can move into more responsibilities and pay.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Good points.
I would add that it can be worth developing an income stream which is unrelated to your primary work, a "hobby" income if you want. Something you enjoy doing and which can help when the TSHTF and your primary work vanishes. Better if you diversify; as unrelated to work sectors as possible but this is often not possible.
If you are lucky it'll take off and you get to retire after a couple of hectic years.
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