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Actual Damages For 1 Download = Cost of a 1 License

NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "In Real View v 20-20 Technologies, it was held that the actual copyright infringement damages for a single unauthorized download of a computer program was the lost license fee that would have been charged. The judge, in the District Court of Massachusetts, granted remittitur, reducing the jury's verdict from $1,370,590.00 to $4200 unless the plaintiff seeks a new trial. Something tells me the plaintiff will seek a new trial."

23 of 647 comments (clear)

  1. The actual damages... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    may or may not exist, if you even think a loss of hypothetical profit is damaging in the first place.

    1. Re:The actual damages... by bruce_the_loon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As many times as we have to tell you that they are being deprived of sales and income. Probably nowhere near 1 to 1, but they are being deprived.

      Like it or not, protection of a work is needed to keep the creative process going. 70 years after the death of the artist is too long and corporations should hold no copyright, only real people named as the artist.

      --
      Trying to become famous by taking photos. Visit my homepage please.
    2. Re:The actual damages... by hedwards · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do you have any evidence that any of those pirates would have paid for a license? And that's the crux of the matter. Until somebody actually shells out for a license you can't say for certain if they would.

      There should be a penalty, but there's no particular reason to believe that a public shaming would be any less effective than forcing them to pay for a copy after the fact, even at a greatly increased cost.

    3. Re:The actual damages... by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Here's part of what the judge said in his instructions to the jury: " By statute -- and here is what the statute says -- you may award 20-20's lost profits resulting from the infringement and Real View's profits attributable to the infringement. In making this determination, you may consider what 20-20 may have reasonably charged for a license permitting Real View's use of the 20-20 Design program, any design costs that Real View saved by its use of the 20-20 Design and the development of ProKitchen and any benefit Real View obtained by its use of 20-20 Design in the development of ProKitchen." The jury ignored those instructions and incorrectly assessed a verdict based on an assumption that Real View had used infringing material in the product they sold. If they had done that and 20-20 had shown it in court, damages would have been appropriate. But no such thing was shown in court, so Real View was only entitled to actual damages equal to the cost they saved by stealing a copy of 20-20's program. As for how the courts and punish lawbreaking, there's a separate mechanism for that: award of punitive damages and court costs. There's no justification for improperly inflating actual damages.

    4. Re:The actual damages... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Perhaps you didn't read the fine article.

      The original owner would NOT have sold a license to the competitor. The competitor appears to have deprived the original owner of their LEAD TIME and possibly some sales.

      The competitor allegedly downloaded the software illegally and analyzed it to produce a competing product.

      This helped the competitor save lots of R&D time. And they sold many copies of the resulting competing product.

      Think of it this way. While competitors catch up, you continue to extend your lead. If competitors cheat by illegally downloading and analyzing your software, then you instantly lose your lead which you obtained at substantial cost (possibly loss of income, taking out a mortgage on your home to pay for expenses while you spend a couple years overcoming problems -- and your competitor sees your sales, downloads your code illegally and instantly sees how you've overcome problems they would've taken a long time to solve.)

    5. Re:The actual damages... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This guy just murdered 10 MB, and then he got his friends to rape 100 MB! If you mean copy, say copy - involving unrelated crimes like murder or theft just confuses the issue. You can still think it's bad without making stuff up. Loss of revenue is not theft - if I stand outside your shop and tell everyone that your meat is rotten, I may have caused you a loss of revenue and I may have done something illegal, but I didn't steal from you, or murder your money, or rape your bank-account or any other silly use of words like that.

    6. Re:The actual damages... by jaymz666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      they should be deprived of any benefit of having the software may have brought them.

      Put that in your measuring stick and smoke it

    7. Re:The actual damages... by Mathinker · · Score: 5, Informative

      Perhaps you didn't read the fine article.

      The original owner would NOT have sold a license to the competitor. The competitor appears to have deprived the original owner of their LEAD TIME and possibly some sales.

      The competitor allegedly downloaded the software illegally and analyzed it to produce a competing product.

      This helped the competitor save lots of R&D time. And they sold many copies of the resulting competing product.

      Don't misrepresent the competitor's actions as using the illegally downloaded software to discover trade secrets of the original owner. He merely copied "Look and Feel". The court decided that the use the competitor made of the software itself was perfectly legal, and the only illegal action was the download itself.

      Or perhaps you didn't read the fine court decision?

    8. Re:The actual damages... by Belial6 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I don't know. All of the companies sueing people over copyright violations are molesting my inner child. That means they are 'child molesters', right?

    9. Re:The actual damages... by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As many times as we have to tell you that they are being deprived of sales and income.

      They never had the sales or the money to begin with. There's nothing to steal from them.

      I'm sure I lose opportunities to gain all the time, but I would not call that theft.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    10. Re:The actual damages... by masmullin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're not understanding a key part of the argument. The difference between copyright infringement and stealing is the deprivation of the original work from the owner.

      In the case of the Ferrari, the copyright infringer isn't stealing the car, she is manufacturing an exact duplicate of the car. This is still morally "wrong" because Ferrari had to work hard to come up with the design of the car, but it isn't as wrong as stealing, because the copyright infringer didn't take the actual product.

      Similarly, the copyright infringer isn't stealing the boxed software the same as a shoplifter. In the case of boxed software, the vendor is the one being stolen from. The vendor paid the manufacturer a certain amount for the boxed software, and pays a certain amount for the location where she does her vending; when a shoplifter takes from the vendor, she is depriving the vendor from selling the boxed software to ANOTHER person; thus a TRUE deprivation of a sale.

      Now all that aside, I agree with your statement of "licence, plus some punitive amount" as the penalty for copyright infringement. But this isn't the same as theft, which should come with additional punishment (eg licence + punitive + short incarceration)

    11. Re:The actual damages... by masmullin · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes, and your new idea that companies are child molesters has "given birth" to new thoughts in my head; thus I'm going to take you to court to get my child support payments.

    12. Re:The actual damages... by Subm · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "The true crux is the immoral and illegal decision to take something without reimbursing the owner."

      You have one measure for morality and legality, but others don't have to share it.

      Gandhi didn't reimburse the legal (British) owner of the sole right to sell salt in India when he sold the salt he got from evaporating sea salt.

      The members of the Boston Tea Party didn't reimburse the owners of the tea.

      I'm not equating this case with those, just pointing out what happens when you have no flexibility in interpreting laws. You end up forced into untenable positions.

    13. Re:The actual damages... by vux984 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The true crux is the immoral and illegal decision to take something without reimbursing the owner.

      What is the moral basis for arguing that it is wrong to make a copy of something you would not have paid for if you couldn't make a copy.

      I'm serious. What moral principle are you applying in that situation?

      I can't find one.

      The idea that the creator should be reimbursed for his work is reasonable, but since we have as a stated premise that I wasn't going to have paid for it then he wasn't going to get any money from me. If I can obtain a copy without causing him any material harm he has lost nothing.

      At best there is a slippery slope argument that if we let people who won't pay have a copy, then people who could/would pay will stop paying for their copies too, But that's not a moral argument for depriving people who would never pay a copy, but merely a recognition of the practical difficulty of differentiating between those who would and those who wouldn't.

    14. Re:The actual damages... by king+neckbeard · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Copyright is a practical institution in the US, not a moral one. Copyright is not by any means a moral issue.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  2. Finally, a judge gets it! by Solandri · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If 10,000 people share a file, and you charge one person for "making available" 10,000 copies, then you cannot penalize those 9,999 other people. Either 10,000 people "made available" 1 file each, or 1 person "made available" 10,000 copies and the other 9,999 are innocent.

    The way the studios have been arguing it, they'd be collecting fines on n^n copyright violations when only n copyright violations occurred.

  3. Re:Cost of infringing open source? by hibiki_r · · Score: 5, Informative

    Unauthorized downloads are very different from, say, selling a program as your creation. In this case, we are dealing with just copying apps without permission, so you are comparing apples and oranges.

  4. Re:Not quite punitive by Artifakt · · Score: 5, Insightful

    3x is what everyone else gets, why not say 3x at least and at most.
    I once had a van full of electronics installation gear, which, while parked, was plowed into by a drunk driver in a rainstorm (water damaged most of the tools and contents before the mess could be cleaned up). I had to take the matter to court and prove he was over the legal alcohol limit to drive, before I could get punitive damages. Just to qualify for that 3x multiple, I had to prove extra circumstances applied, and those extra circumstances amounted to a criminal level of guilt, as it would be in a criminal case, not just simple responsibility as in a civil case. (Note, technically I still didn't have to meet the reasonable doubt test for the drunk driver to be considered responsible in a civil case, but I did have to show somebody, whether a full court actually prosecuting him or just a cop making out an accident report and bothering to do a breathalizer test and subsequent arrest, had determined his responsibility exceeded simple responsibility before I could qualify for punitive damages).
                  So why does a special privilege exist, letting the software creator seek damages many times higher than 3x? Why does somebody like me have to prove criminal negligence, or other fully criminal level of responsibility, while various copyright holders have a special private law that means they only have to prove a lesser standard such as'willfulness', and why does 'willfulness' sometimes multiply the already ultra-high damages by 5x, not just 3x?
                  I want a special law like these guys get - one that lets me really discourage people who through illegal acts, damage my property. Of course, all I was trying to discourage was a drunk who blew 0.31 on a breathalizer and was estimated to have been driving 60 MPH in a quiet residential neighborhood, at the time school was just letting out, and who had 9 priors, and who somehow still had enough money to buy another car after the last accident and seemed to think he could just pay for simple damages and keep it up forever. But the courts in their infinite wisdom have decided that needs less discouragement than that hideous and abominable crime of pirating software.

    --
    Who is John Cabal?
  5. Re:Not quite punitive by sconeu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So why does a special privilege exist, letting the software creator seek damages many times higher than 3x? Why does somebody like me have to prove criminal negligence, or other fully criminal level of responsibility, while various copyright holders have a special private law that means they only have to prove a lesser standard such as'willfulness', and why does 'willfulness' sometimes multiply the already ultra-high damages by 5x, not just 3x?

    It's called the "Golden Rule". As in, "Them what has the gold, makes the rules."
    They paid good money for that law.

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  6. Cost of S/W, reasonable attempt at proportionality by perpenso · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Do you have any evidence that any of those pirates would have paid for a license? And that's the crux of the matter.

    No, the actual crux is the rule of law. If a law is broken there should be a punishment. What should that be in the case of software piracy? The cost of the software is a reasonable attempt at proportionality. Plus fines often have two components, the actual damages and the punitive damages. The later being purely to discourage such behavior. Perhaps the cost of a license should be considered punitive not actual, it matters only to accountants not the person whose pocket it comes out of.

    None of the above should be interpreted to mean that our laws in this area are not antiquated, or flawed, and in need of an update. I'm just arguing that fining the infringer the cost of a license seems far more reasonable than some other methods of coming up with a number.

  7. Re:protection of a work is needed to keep the crea by king+neckbeard · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually, German authors made more money than British authors when Brits had copyright and Germans had no effective system. They also wrote more books, and the public had more books. Basically, in Germany, authors got paid bigger advances and their strategy was high volume, low margin. Getting to the market first was very important for them. In Britain, authors got smaller advances, and would depend upon royalties which would rarely if ever materialise, just like today. Books were more of a luxury item in that setting.

    --
    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  8. Re:Cost of S/W, reasonable attempt at proportional by Runaway1956 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think tort law would cover the problem, nicely. Treble damages. If some guy is found with a library of pirated material, worth a thousand dollars, then he pays three thousand dollars. So - if someone actually went through all my stuff, and discovered all the stuff I've pirated, then I might be liable for - ohhhh - $150.

    If they could examine the records of everything I've ever downloaded, and charge me for stuff I've since deleted, then I might be liable for a ballpark figure of $2 - 3,000.

    And, if the world were suddenly to act that rational, I might even find myself agreeing with the law. Winning "settlements" of millions against working class people simply makes no sense, unless those working class people were financially profiting from the software, music, movies, or whatever.

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  9. Re:Cost of S/W, reasonable attempt at proportional by hedwards · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The rule is that you have to prove your damages to be awarded them. Unless they can prove that they've been damaged, I see absolutely no reason why they should be given a penny that other industries wouldn't get under similar circumstances.