In New Zealand, a System To Watch for Disabled Parking Violators

cylonlover writes "What does it mean when a parking spot is marked with a wheelchair symbol? If you answered, 'It means I can park there as long as I'm going to be quick,' you're wrong — yet you're also far from alone. Every day in parking lots all over the world, non-disabled drivers regularly use spaces clearly reserved for the handicapped. They often get away with it, too, unless an attendant happens to check while their vehicle is parked there. Thanks to technology recently developed by New Zealand's Car Parking Technologies (CPT), however, those attendants could soon be notified the instant that a handicapped spot is improperly occupied."

Comments

P&T on handicapped parking

[bonch]

What does it mean when a parking spot is marked with a wheelchair symbol? If you answered, 'It means I can park there as long as I'm going to be quick,' you're wrong — yet you're also far from alone. Every day in parking lots all over the world, non-disabled drivers regularly use spaces clearly reserved for the handicapped.

Penn & Teller did a Bullshit! episode on handicapped parking that's pretty interesting. As with all Bullshit! episodes, it's full of profanity, if that offends you.

One of the interesting points of the episode, and something I've noticed as will others, is that handicapped parking spots are almost always empty. Empty parking spots all over the world that most people aren't allowed to use, which of course clutters up the rest of the parking lot. Just something to think about.

Re:P&T on handicapped parking

[Mistlefoot]

As someone who provided care for a wheelchair bound gentleman "Gord" I have spent much thought on this.

Gord was greatly affected by temperature and his body was slow to warm or cool if he got cold. Parking close to a door to get him inside or outside quickly was very important for his comfort. A larger then normal size parking spot was also needed so that his life could be lowered and he could actually be helped out of the van.

How would your friend in the wheelchair be able to get back into his vehicle if someone parked too close to his door? He wouldn't. And as he would likely have hand activated driving controls it's not like he could just have someone move his car for him. So I don't believe your friend does this or is as confined to a wheelchair as you imply.
There are many disabled people who can walk or move in some fashion around a large "store" but still can't carry bags or push carts long distances.

When I would head into a store or bank or shop while working for Gord I would consider whether or not it were best to use a handicapped spot. Considerations would include:
1) How much time would Gord spend alone in the van (Gord was prone to seizures and had full time attendants as he could not be alone for long periods of time
2) How many free handicapped spots were free. Not much sense in "stealing" a normal spot, forcing a healthy person to use an even further away spot while 4 handicapped spots were empty. Conversely, there was not much sense in using the last (or only) handicapped spot if there was a normal spot available within a reasonable distance.

Re:P&T on handicapped parking

[the Dragonweaver]

A number of people who are disabled are not visibly disabled. For example, my husband's niece suffered from life-threatening asthma as a child—and by that, I mean there was a point when her immune system collapsed due to the drugs they had her on to keep her breathing. There was no outward sign that she couldn't walk far, so people would give her family dirty looks for parking (legally) in the handicapped spots. But she couldn't walk the length of a parking lot.

Now, she was a child, so a wheelchair might have been worthwhile in a number of situations. But imagine an adult in the same situation. The effort of lifting a wheelchair out of a car would be beyond them, and the method of propulsion wouldn't be any easier than walking. So they'd be better off walking the short distance inside, where they could sit down and wait until they felt well enough to walk further.

And if someone thinks they'd be better off staying at home, you've never been in contact with someone with chronic illness. It's isolating enough without being trapped at home.

Re:P&T on handicapped parking

[Penguinshit]

I would counter, as a handicapped person, that there are too few. While there may be empty reserved slots much of the time, the "subscription rate" is for the busy times. I have been to places during holidays and other usually busy times where the reserved spots are all legitimately used.

Then there are times I have returned to my car where some asshole, not content with illegitimately filling a handicap spot, parked in the slot marked for where my access ramp would extend out the side. No matter how many times I activated the hydraulic ramp it wouldn't clear the now-scratched-and -dented side of the asshole's car.

Re:P&T on handicapped parking

[AthanasiusKircher]

Empty parking spots all over the world that most people aren't allowed to use, which of course clutters up the rest of the parking lot. Just something to think about.

That's not interesting. Not even the slightest bit. So we over-assign handicapped spots to try and make sure that when several truly handicapped people are at the store...

I thoroughly believe that we should have spaces available for those who need it, as well as other appropriate accommodations. But I think the GP brings up a larger issue, which is when it gets to be too much -- when laws and attempts to accommodate are so important due to political correctness that they trump reason.

For example, I remember hearing a news story a year or two back about a guy who was going around some state (I think California) and suing any business that didn't follow rather restrictive and arbitrary laws about accommodations to the letter. He would just show up in a town, wander around, and a month later, half a dozen businesses would get threatened with a lawsuit. Often, because of space issues or building design issues or whatever, the businesses couldn't actually put in whatever random accommodation, so they would settle -- effectively paying shake-down money to this guy.

Is this common? I don't know. The news story mentioned one other lawyer accused of doing a similar scheme. But our collective sensitivity to the issue led to irrational laws that support such behavior.

Another personal anecdote: a few years back I was meeting up with some people to go on a short road trip outside of a building in an area with limited parking. We had three cars, one of which was parked in front of a fire hydrant too close to an intersection, one of which was parked in a loading/tow zone, and one parked in a handicapped spot. (There were two handicapped spots there, and the other was empty: in fact, these spots weren't convenient to any important buildings, so I'm not sure I had ever seen cars parked there.) All had flashers on, and we were only there for a couple minutes. It was obvious we were packing stuff in cars and were all there with the cars, and if two cars had suddenly shown up for the handicapped spots, we would have gladly moved.

A police car drives by. They stop and ask about the car in the spot. We explain the situation -- that we're loading up, there's another empty space, we'll be gone in a minute, etc. They don't care: we have to move. They say nothing about the two other cars parked illegally, including the one that was actually a traffic safety hazard.

So, we pull the car out of the space and also into an illegal parking spot too close to an intersection. That satisfies the police, and they drive away.

Again, I'm all for providing accommodations. But when law enforcement is happier with cars stopped in hazardous No Parking zones rather than take up one of two empty handicapped spaces that are never used anyway, something's a little amiss.

Re:P&T on handicapped parking

[Genda]

So at one level I can see your resentment. Its not fair to subsidize the irresponsible. My question is that when you see someone overweight coming out of a car in a handicapped parking place, do you even for one microsecond consider that their malady might be the reason for their obesity. I was in a car accident in 2002. I shattered my right leg, and had to have my right foot reattached. There is an 8 inch steel plate and over 2 dozen stainless steel screws in my ankle, leg and a 4 inch screw through my right knee where I suffered a plateau fracture of the right tibia, That is where the force of the impact is so great it splits the tibia down the middle like splitting a rail.

Before that, I'd won fitness awards. It was a long time I spent on my back, then a wheel chair, then crutches. I put on a lot of weight due to the sudden change in my lifestyle and the inability to stand on my bad leg. I'm only now (10 years later) at a point in my life where I think with the help of the right trainer/physical therapist I might be able to get myself back into shape. My leg however, will always hurt, and will never again function fully (unless the day comes that it can be replaced with a perfect working replica.) Do you see me as one of you lazy irresponsible fat bodies who doesn't deserve a placard?

Even when I get back down to my proper weight and fitness level, I will endure continuous pain and the inability to walk significant distances. You wouldn't be able to tell from a distance except perhaps by my slight limp or if you looked carefully you might notice something strange about the shape of my right ankle. Would you just assume I'm gaming the system, cheating you and the public in general. All I'm saying is rather than jumping to the worst conclusion immediately, perhaps you should stop for a second and ask yourself why that person has gotten a handicapped placard or license plate. Ultimately it takes a doctor to say a person needs it or not, though most doctors will lean towards the needs and want of the patient, a good doctor would almost certain say to a simply obese patient, get your fat ass to the furthest parking space and walk... its good for you. That is of course assuming they put their patient's well being ahead of looking good or making people happy. As well, you might just stop for a moment and wonder if an obese person would give up their placard in a heart beat to be fully healthy and vibrant again. I know I would.

Don't be so quick to judge, unless you've walked a mile on my crutches.

Re:P&T on handicapped parking

[Anonymous Coward]

You're missing a big part of it. It's not OCD, it's misapplied competitiveness with the accompanying neurotransmitter squirt. You "win" if you get a closer-in space than most of the other people.

Silly? Maybe, but keep in mind that you're talking to a community where a substantial fraction spend a lot of time pressing buttons to acquire virtual currency that can only be spent to flip some bits that will let them acquire more virtual currency.

Re:P&T on handicapped parking

[Ichijo]

I would counter, as a handicapped person, that there are too few... I have been to places during holidays and other usually busy times where the reserved spots are all legitimately used.

In a free market, efficient pricing prevents chronic shortages, no matter how little supply is available. A demand curve proves this.

Therefore, if not enough parking spaces are unoccupied, it's only because the price is too low. The right price for curb parking is the lowest price you can charge and still have one or two vacant spaces on every block.

Re:P&T on handicapped parking

[BenEnglishAtHome]

I would counter, as a handicapped person, that there are too few.

Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. What makes me crazy is hospitals. Around where I live, the requirement for number of handicapped spaces seems to be the same for hospitals as for all other businesses. While some businesses could make do with less, I'd say every hospital in my area needs four times as many handicapped spaces as they actually have. I have a disabled sister and have to drive her around quite a bit and we can usually find a spot...but not at hospitals. They all seem to always be full.

You'd think the people that make the rules would realize that there's a higher percentage of handicapped folks visiting hospitals than the grocery store.

Re:P&T on handicapped parking

[arth1]

Some places (obviously not in the US) call them "mobility" spots and have restrictions based on mobility. That makes much more sense. People unable to walk 200 meters unassisted can get one, but those without issues traveling, regardless of other disabilities, are ineligible.

The problem with clear-cut peg hole rules is that they ignore that people aren't pegs. I can walk. And I can see. But I can't walk and see at the same time. I can't get a handicap permit because I can walk, because that's all the rules care about. Never mind that that won't help me - I am unable to cross a street, and am in danger in any parking lot, but not because of mobility, but because I can't see whether there's traffic.

I think a better rule would be that all permits should be applied for through a doctor, who can plead the medical necessity by describing the actual need.

If the handicapped person is driving someone else to run in the store, but he handicapped person does not get out of the car themselves, then they are not entitled to park there.

Yes, but looks can deceive. I had a friend (rest in peace) who was a hemophiliac. He could not drive a car because of his disease, but he could walk very short distances. When his companion parked his car and waited while he was shopping, there was often verbal abuse from people who just didn't get it - the handicapped person really was using the store, and required a close parking space.

Again, things are seldom black and white, and judging people based on fixed rules will always hurt those who least can afford to be hurt. In my opinion, it's better to let a hundred people who might not need a permit get it, than to refuse a single person who does need it.

Re:P&T on handicapped parking

[hattig]

Meanwhile I am already in the store shopping because I went straight for an obvious empty space and was parked and on my way to the store as they were on the first round of the car park. I'm also first out of the car park when I leave. I simply don't understand people who spend time trying to find a car parking space thirty yards closer to the entrance.

Re:Steve Jobs

[causality]

It wouldn't hurt the world to develop a miniscule amount of compassion and human dignity. Sadly our society as a whole has been remiss in instilling these qualities in our children today.

There are two major obstacles. 1) Most people want power, it is glorified, and neither for any noble reason. 2) The primary way power is expressed is by disrespecting, subjugating, or mistreating someone who is expected to have to take it. It's why so many politicians and executives are sociopaths.

The saner and healthier you are as a person, the less desire you have to manipulate and control people and activities which don't concern you and don't pose any sort of danger. That kind of self-importance doesn't appeal to people who have the human qualities you mention. It's just that living in this sort of hierarchical system, where most people are petty or psychotic, and witnessing all of the injustice will greatly test those qualities.

So we end up needing to write laws to try to force people to have certain behaviors instead of it happening in a natural kind of way that comes from an ability to consider someone other than yourself. I like the contrast Aristotle provided when he said, "I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." That's the humanized way. The other way is more like a machine executing programmed instructions.

Now we need cameras in toilet stalls

[grimsnaggle]

I propose cameras pointed in to toilet stalls with 24/7 monitoring to ensure that handicapped toilet stalls aren't abused by those able-bodied assholes. We'll also need to amend the building code to increase the total number of available stalls to ensure that the population is appropriately served.

I was on the building planning committee for a new building at Stanford. The bathrooms are comically large because of handicap access requirements. Despite consuming 800 square feet, there are only six total stalls. The same building also has two handicapped parking spots out front, out of four parking spots total.

Given that the population served is, on average, 22 years old and in excellent health, these measures seem inappropriate. Things would be completely different if this were a retirement home.

Re:Steve Jobs

[Kagato]

Job's d-bag parking goes back to the 80's and 90's. Jean-Louis Gassee once commented "I didn't know you could use them for the emotionally handicapped".

One report says that an Apple Employee covered the Handicap logo with a Mercedes logo and Jobs was none too pleased. Would be interesting to know if he did that at Pixar as there doesn't seem to be many stories about Steve Jobs at Pixar.

Re:Steve Jobs

[Renraku]

In some cultures, you show how awesome you are by inconveniencing as many people as possible. It isn't unusual for someone to flat out park in the middle of a busy street, lock up, and walk into a shop. Thankfully they keep each other in check because someone will eventually be along that doesn't care to get a new dent in their bumper and will simply push the car off the road or otherwise mangle it.

A certain section of people here in the US do similar things, only not quite as illegal. I watched seven people at a table the other day all change their orders over and over every time a waiter came back to their table, and ended up leaving a bunch of non-restaurant trash on their table when they left..no tip, of course. Their bill was over $100 and they shorted the place on that too.

Re:Tired of coddling to disabled

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck the vets. They signed up for a high-risk job of their own free will. If they were injured, they were compensated accordingly. That's the end of it. We're even. If they got shafted, it was their own damn fault. Cry to your congressmen.

Technically, it was legal for him to park there

[tlambert]

He owned the building complex, and you are only required to have a legally mandated number of handicapped spots. Steve insured that there were more than the legally mandated number of spots available so that he was never in technical violation of the rules.

Here's the ADA requirements for parking spaces:

        http://www.ada.gov/adata1.htm

Here's a more accessible interpretation, with a table indicating the number of spots required per number of total parking spaces:

        http://en.allexperts.com/q/Disability-Law-917/Handicapped-Parking.htm

He was perfectly within his rights, so long as there was not a sufficient number of other people gaming the system at the same time. I suggest you avoid trying to do the same thing, unless you are the property owner and the single largest tax payer in a given municipality, however.

You'll likely eventually win, unless you are a total dick, but the lawyer costs will exceed just paying the fine, since it isn't a moving violation and therefore will only cost you the fine.

-- Terry

There's no need for that complexity.

[billstewart]

If there's an unnecessary handicapped spot, able-bodied people have to walk at most one parking place farther (usually less.) But during the times of day when it's not very busy, the average able-bodied person already gets to walk less, because the parking lot's not very full, so they already win. And while the original article was about New Zealanders, we're Americans, and making us get extra exercise walking in from the parking lot is about the best National Health Care we're going to get.

Re:There's no need for that complexity.

[Penguinshit]

I would give quite a bit to have the option to walk.