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Oracle's Latest Java Moves Draw Industry Ire

Posted by Soulskill on from the can't-we-all-just-get-along dept.

snydeq writes "Two years later, Oracle's stewardship of Java continues to raise user and vendor ire, this time due to modularization, licensing, and security concerns. 'Plans for version 8 of Java Platform Standard Edition, which is due next year, call for inclusion of Project Jigsaw to add modular capabilities to Java. But some organizations are concerned with how Oracle's plans might conflict with the OSGi module system already geared to Java. In the licensing arena, Canonical, the maker of Ubuntu Linux, says Oracle is no longer letting Linux distributors redistribute Oracle's own commercial Java, causing difficulties for the company. Meanwhile, security vendor F-Secure views Java as security hindrance.'"

9 of 372 comments (clear)

  1. Oracle and Java by ravenswood1000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    With Oracle responsible for Java, is it even worth it to learn the language any more? I mean they will be killing it off soon.

    1. Re:Oracle and Java by Xtifr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why do companies shoot themselves in their feet? I don't know, but companies do it all the time. Oracle has always been remarkably short-sighted and unable to see the bigger picture.

      On the other hand, the fact that there is a an officially GPL'd version of official Java out there may well mean that in the long term, Java will be fine. Oracle can kill off their own branch, but Java in some form is probably going to continue, because it's too entrenched. There are some big players on the sidelines (e.g. IBM) with a lot invested in Java who aren't going to sit idly by and let Oracle destroy it when Sun made it easy to go another route. OpenJDK may have a few shortcomings at the moment, but that could easily change if some bigger players got more serious about it.

      It's still too early to tell how this is all going to play out, but the death of Java seems like one of the least likely outcomes.

    2. Re:Oracle and Java by Ossifer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      1. Most applications have base requirements for runtime (C libs, etc., for example)
      2. HotSpot yields native code
      3. Sure it does--better than any other generic language in its core, but it also provides JNI for anything else you feel you need outside of its core.
      4. OSX WFM.
      5. Red herring. See #2, also for truly intensive functions, use assembler.

    3. Re:Oracle and Java by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      2. Oracle thinks that Java is not open, and they also have damning email correspondence showing that Google did not actually believe Java could be used without a license.

      You mean the damning email that came out in August 2010 saying from engineer Tim Lindholm to Andy Rubin that said we need to license java?
      (http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/Legal/News/2011/11_-_November/Oracle_v__Google_and_the_most_relentlessly_litigated_email_ever/)
      Remember that Oracle purchased Sun in 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Microsystems) where Android was first released in 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system))

      Putting together a timeline:
      1) Android released in 2008
      2) Oracle purchased Sun in 2009
      3) "Damning" email in 2010

      So after Android is released, Oracle purchases Sun hoping to sue Google for $$$, then an engineer says yeah we better license java. That isn't damning, that's an opinion of one engineer (or more likely a team). Now if that timeline had #3 coming first, it would be damning, but to come last in the chain is hardly even worth mentioning. Oracle's case resting on that one email is laughable at best

    4. Re:Oracle and Java by BeforeCoffee · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Oh, you're one of THOSE guys. You complain too much. Java isn't as bad as you say even if there's a whiff of truthiness in most of your criticisms.

      I argue, Mr. Grouch, that the crown jewels of Java are not to be found in the language. They're found in the JVM. Plain and simple: the JVM is the most banged on, battle hardened, security-first computer programs ever written. There is no more trustworthy binary in the world more than java.exe. You want an unrockable web server? Run Tomcat with the NIO thingy enabled on the latest Java 6 atop Linux with the firewall all ratcheted up. And don't proxy through Apache HTTPD if you don't have to - that's just one more security-as-afterthought, million moving parts binary with perennial remote exploits to worry about.

      Why do languages "that target the JVM" actually make a difference? Because you get all that bitchin runtime robustness without the Java language baggage you just love love love to complain about. And while we're at it: Java Native Invocation (JNI) is considered harmful. Native code tainting the JVM? You better have a darned important exotic business requirement to bring new native code into the equation. As far as I'm concerned, you're crazy as a loon to write native code these days unless you're doing embedded systems or device driver development. I'm wondering why you would suggest something so reckless! Care to elaborate?

      I know the JVM's design makes life a real drag sometimes. It feels like a trusty slingshot that's been upgraded into a WMD. But, I could care less about aesthetics or the angst about Java that computer language and open source purists express. I care about stability. I care about uptime. I care about speed. But most of all, I care about security. I care about the total cost of the systems I run.

      Ok, ok, I'm leaving, I'm getting off your lawn.

  2. Re:Don't understand by gral · · Score: 5, Informative

    OpenJDK has been the default in Ubuntu for a little while now. I don't think most distributions used the main Oracle Java in their distro by default either. OpenJDK is still available, and included, it is just the oracle version that has been removed. OpenJDK is backed by other companies than just Oracle, and is licensed for distros. At least, this is my understanding of the landscape.

    --
    Scott Carr
  3. I don't see these as real issues by Necroman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I follow Java developments regularly and I don't see these points as being real issues.

    Modularization: Project Jigsaw is meant to bring a more simple module system when compared to OSGi. OSGi is a great tool, but overly complicated for many people. Also, having Jigsaw built into the JRE will allow Oracle to split the base JRE into modules and hopefully reduce the memory required on initial load of a Java app. (Java core libraries have some horrible dependency trees, which cause a large chunk of the base JRE libraries to load on even the most simple applications).

    Java Licensing: Sun started to push OpenJDK before it was bought by Oracle and that trend is continuing. The idea is that OpenJDK should be included with OS's like Ubuntu. OpenJDK is a GPL fork of a majority of the Oracle JDK, but some pieces could not be released as GPL because Sun originally licensed them from others (so those parts had to be re-written). I think it's better for everyone if OpenJDK gets more people using it so the bugs are worked out and it's a great open source Java implementation.

    --
    Its not what it is, its something else.
  4. Re:fp by jd2112 · · Score: 5, Funny

    FIRST POST

    Obviously you aren't running Java, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to post so fast.

    --
    Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
  5. Not an accurate summary of the case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Those "two sides" are not correct. This lawsuit doesn't hinge on whether or not Java is open. The real situation is that if Google had licensed Java, it would be protected from Oracle's patent infringement lawsuits (due to licensing terms) regarding patents that have NOTHING PER SE TO DO WITH JAVA. Those patents cover techniques used to implement virtual machines, and they could potentially be used to sue Perl, Python, Ruby, and other virtual machine technologies.