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How SOPA & PIPA Could Hurt Scientific Debate

Posted by timothy on from the debate-is-overrated-certainty-is-better dept.

mwolfam writes with this pointed excerpt from a piece at the Huffington Post by Los Alamos National Laboratories post-doc researcher Michael Ham, who makes a slightly different case than most for the reasons that SOPA and PIPA should be stopped: "Simply put, The Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) and the Protect IP Act (PIPA) currently under development in Congress will provide a rapid way to sentence websites to death without the need for pesky things like trials and juries. Much to the surprise of nobody who understands how the Internet works, these two Acts will have absolutely no effect on digital piracy, but they will create an environment where freedom of speech could be severely curtailed, large companies can execute competitors, and scientific data can be hidden from the public."

38 of 100 comments (clear)

  1. I see an explosion in European web-hosting by buglista · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Thanks muchly, our economy needs a bit of a boost right now.

    1. Re:I see an explosion in European web-hosting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think you forgot ACTA. SOPA and PIPA are just the US instances of the ACTA virus.
      They expect the EU (and actually the whole world) to have them too. If not... well you saw how they managed to get a UK citizen extradited to the use over this shit, and how they got Spain, Finland and Belgium already infected.

      Of course they will never manage to reach their goal. Since that is physically impossible. (Unless they put DRM chips in every human's head, we can still e.g. have one person read the information, tell it to somebody else, who then types it in.)
      And of course we will still not be affected in the slightest, since we already have countries that have such total censorship (China, UAE, etc), and they use VPNs at $5 a month to circumvent *everything*. (Hell, there are cops who will pay you to tell them how to get porn. They are humans too, and if it's about porn, their side is clear. ^^)

      So they have no chance of ever succeeding.

      But for the cattle majority, they don't have to. Since those are passive life-forms. Who don't have their own perception of reality, but instead get it from their opinion makers. So all that is needed, is for the dumb masses to believe the lies and delusions, and they will have control over most. (Some say: Unless the masses feel the need for porn. Then the revolution will start. ;)
      Same as those people in North Korea, who honestly believe that when they touch an American flag, their hands will rot off. (Remember the Daily Show interview about the guy who gets people out of NK.)

      It's all about assumed reality nowadays. Not actually sensed reality.

      And the problem is, that apparently, we, the good people, are not secure in ourselves to get the masses' perception to change. Maybe because other than the media industry, we don't live off of cocaine. (I've worked in the EU music industry, and I swear on my dick and my mothers' life, that there is no such thing as a business deal without cocaine and preferably hookers and booze in there. It's an old boys network on drugs.)

      So let's kick the Dunning Kruger effect's ass, and fix the mindset of the masses!

    2. Re:I see an explosion in European web-hosting by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think you forgot ACTA. SOPA and PIPA are just the US instances of the ACTA virus. They expect the EU (and actually the whole world) to have them too.

      Yes they do. Sadly.

      Just like they expected EU and the rest of the world to either look the other way or join them in their other wars.

    3. Re:I see an explosion in European web-hosting by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why? SOPA would prevent US visitors from going to such websites.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    4. Re:I see an explosion in European web-hosting by andydread · · Score: 4, Informative

      By blocking our access to overseas information? Sounds like China. No thanks no fucking thanks. You media people are simply pissed off that people don't want your fucking content any more. You see the Internet as a threat to your control of content. When people are watching Youtube and using Google and Facebook they are not going to the movie theatre or purchasing your shitty content.

  2. after a 2nd strike, self nuked by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 2

    The US is hellbent on the way to being a "nuclear damage zone", to be routed around. Inside, people will need a encrypted channel to a "neutral" server outside the US in a freer country to surf from.

    1. Re:after a 2nd strike, self nuked by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The US is hellbent on the way to being a "nuclear damage zone", to be routed around. Inside, people will need a encrypted channel to a "neutral" server outside the US in a freer country to surf from.

      More like some, extremely influential people, groups, and companies are hell-bent on having the US control the entire internet. But don't be thinking that it's a US only thing. It upsets the established order - just like printing. Whether they'll succeed or not is another thing. I'm not expecting Facebook, eBay, Amazon, PayPal or climate change deniers to step up for net neutrality. For that to occur we'd need a change in education which won't happen over night. As long as people believe "terrorism" is not something police should deal with then we'll just have another war - this time on "piracy" or "threats to US jobs".

      Note that printing was invented a long time before Gutenberg.

    2. Re:after a 2nd strike, self nuked by ironjaw33 · · Score: 2

      Whether they'll succeed or not is another thing. I'm not expecting Facebook, eBay, Amazon, PayPal or climate change deniers to step up for net neutrality. For that to occur we'd need a change in education which won't happen over night.

      Hopefully, you're right: once younger generations who grew up with digital media and the internet rise to positions of power, the rules will change and the insanity will ease. That said, I have a lawyer friend under 30 who ran for office in his state legislature and he is just as willfully ignorant about technology issues as the Senate and House champions of SOPA/PIPA. That doesn't give me much hope for the future.

  3. Fear not, this will not be a real problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Actually, those acts are a good thing. In reality they will only hurt American companies and consumers, not the rest of the world. They will however drive business and entrepreneurship away from USA, basically allowing the US economy to implode, and thus when the companies get hurt, their wellsponsored congresspuppets will vote in another act to stop this madness.

    Good thing money equals speech in some areas, isn't it?

    1. Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem by Elbereth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately, this is incredibly common whenever Slashdot discusses something. Slashdot when into hysterics when they found out about Trusted Computing. Nowadays, most of them use locked-down cell phones and game consoles every day, without a single complaint, despite how that was going to destroy computing as we know it. When Slashdot heard about RFID, the entire website ground to a halt, as the paranoid conspiracy wing took over the submission queue. People were advising you to microwave your new clothes. Slashdot was advising people to microwave their new clothes. I am not making this up. According to Slashdot, the government was going to use RFID to track people (or, less commonly, corporations were going to track people, but that didn't sound ominous enough, so it was a minority conspiracy). I eventually stopped reading Slashdot for a few years, because it just got so crazy here.

      Now, we've got SOPA, PIPA, and ACTA. Everyone knows these are bad laws. However, Slashdot has to go into hysterics yet again, making it that much more difficult to convince anyone that they truly are bad laws. When you've got one person over here saying, "SOPA is a bad law, because it will shift responsibility from users to site administrators", and you've got a whole crowd of geeks, frothing at the mouth, screaming, "SOPA WILL KILL THE INTERNET!!!!!!!!!11111", people will just tune out the rational person and write off everyone. This article is part of the problem. Instead of rationally and dispassionately explaining the issues, it starts screaming bloody murder, coming up with wildly improbable edge cases, in an effort to get people riled up and ready to protest. The examples that he uses are laughable, at best. They read like the sorts of wild conspiracy theories that usually come from anonymous users on Slashdot.

      I think that I hate "push technology" more than the average Slashdotter, but, then again, we'd all say that. I'm that guy from The Onion who doesn't own a television. I can't stand the thought of the Internet turning into some kind of passive, non-interactive experience like TV, where everything is designed for the lowest common denominator, vetted by focus groups and censored for my benefit. However, there's a huge difference between YouTube turning into a promotional tool for major labels (yuck) and the economy imploding, the internet being RUINED FOREVER, and scientific progress being impeded. Will people fight as passionately if you tell them YouTube will get more boring? Will people fight as passionately if you tell them MegaUpload will start validating that all those 700MB .AVI files aren't Hollywood movies? Maybe not. But it's infinitely better to tell people the truth, rather than making up these ridiculous, exaggerated stories about the world ending. My God, you'd think that one stupid law could cause the end of human civilization. I'm sorry, but that's just not possible. If SOPA/PIPA/ACTA pass, the Internet will be a worse place. But it will not cause half the things that people are saying will happen, and I think the public knows this. They're not as stupid as the elitists at Slashdot think. It's like when those cops came to your school and told you that you that marijuana would turn you into a drug addict, living on the streets, sucking cock for a fix. You knew that was bullshit. Well, the public knows that you're spewing bullshit about SOPA, and they're going to tune you out, just like you tuned out that cop.

    2. Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem by lightknight · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Granted. However, in /.'s defense, the people in charge typically have trouble discerning when they've stepped over the line; in fact, it's only when people pick up the proverbial torches and pitchforks that various elected officials care to actually ponder where the language of a particular bill might lead the nation.

      And let's be honest: the the vast majority of bills Congress has voted into law over the past several years have been on par with some of the stinkers that Hollywood has been shoving down the public's throat. What we need here is a website like Rotton Tomatoes, but for the various laws that have been passed.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    3. Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem by misexistentialist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Slashdot was advising people to microwave their new clothes. I am not making this up. According to Slashdot, the government was going to use RFID to track people

      The fact is the government is tracking cellphones and vehicles with various technologies. The "ridiculous, exaggerated" story essentially came to pass , though RFID wasn't the mechanism. Yes, we have nothing to hide from Big Brother, and yes life will go on even when the internet becomes an exclusively corporate and government domain. It's a good thing we have "sensible" people like you around to help us accept our fate.

    4. Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem by bzipitidoo · · Score: 2

      You're the one engaging in Chicken Little antics-- about Slashdot's alleged Chicken Little antics. You think SOPA isn't any big deal? Maybe you're right. But this isn't about only SOPA, this is about the climate, attitudes, ignorance, and problems that made it possible for such horrible ideas to even come before Congress. SOPA is just the latest battle in this war, the War Against Information. We know quite well that even if SOPA and PIPA crash and burn like a lead Hindenburg, powerful interests will be back for another round, and another. They're fools who think to create their own little corner of control to profit from, and who don't see how that could come back to bite them, and all of us. They evidently think they have real chances of putting this sort of thing over on the public, and, sadly, they're right.

      This war isn't won until nobody but a few cranks on the fringes gives such outrageous ideas the time of day. When they have less credibility than the average Nigerian scammer, then the war is won. Nobody would seriously try to pass legislation that, for instance, declares that Christianity is the official religion of the US, and outlaws mosques, synagogues, etc. Sure, there are people who would like to do just that, but they know such a thing doesn't have (pardon the joke) a prayer. Enough people believe that separation of church and state is a good idea to see to that. "In God we trust" is on the currency, but that was a sop that in no way affects how the country operates. We don't yet have similar principles established for information. The public isn't too sure where the lines should be. If the US blows it on this, that won't end in our destruction. But, it could very well put the US in decline. Other countries might seize the opportunity to lure away the best and brightest minds.

      GoDaddy got the message. I'm sure they still want to support SOPA, but now they know they'd better not if they don't want to lose even more customers. Maybe we can't move MS and Apple because they're too big and get too much support from the uninformed general public, but sometimes we can make the likes of GoDaddy blink.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    5. Re:Fear not, this will not be a real problem by Elbereth · · Score: 2

      I never said it was no big deal. I'm saying that it's a bad law that will have negative repercussions. I'm a little tired of alleged Chicken Little antics, because every time it's mentioned, someone says that the economy will collapse, the internet will turn into cable TV, scientific debate will be silenced, etc. These are outrageous claims. They always depend on absolute worst case scenarios, but they're presented as irrefutable, immutable prophecies. If you pass SOPA, they will come to pass. What happens if SOPA passes, and they don't come to pass? You've blown your credibility. Climate change is a good example of this. There are some outspoken advocates who have made doom and gloom predictions that did not come to pass. In some cases, it's because they were working with incomplete data. Or the data changed. Or whatever. The problem is, people are only going to remember that an expert made a doomsday prediction that didn't come true. Even when you've got evidence to back up your claims, you need to be careful. Once you're perceived to have made incorrect predictions, your credibility is blown and the movement is hurt.

      If the US blows it on this, that won't end in our destruction. But, it could very well put the US in decline. Other countries might seize the opportunity to lure away the best and brightest minds.

      This is a very good message. This is something that I could get behind. It's still a bit more ideological than I'd probably put it, but it's true enough. Compare this to

      Yes, we have nothing to hide from Big Brother, and yes life will go on even when the internet becomes an exclusively corporate and government domain. It's a good thing we have "sensible" people like you around to help us accept our fate.

      Seriously? All (not most) user-submitted content on the internet will disappear. That means nobody on the entire internet will be able to post a photograph they took. Nobody on the internet will be able to upload a cute video of their pets. Nobody will be able to upload a short story they wrote. Do you think this is what SOPA will cause? With no exaggeration? Because as soon as one thought criminal uploads a single, unchallenged haiku to the internet, it becomes untrue. That brave, brave thought criminal... he has toppled the fascist empire with his humble haiku! According to this poster, Linux will be destroyed, because SOPA will make it impossible to host any open source code. Uhhh... no.

      And yet his comment is at +5, and my comments are steadily getting modded down.

      We'll see. I already said what I think will happen. My vision is substantially less apocalyptic, but it's still sufficiently negative that I think it's obvious where I stand. I get what you're saying. You're an optimist. You think this is the worst bill that could be passed. You don't see any reason to hold back. You're ready to bring out the big guns. Alright. I get that. I'm more of a pessimist, though, and I think that saving the predictions of doom and gloom for something worse than SOPA is a good idea. NDAA 2012 is my idea of a "doom and gloom" scenario. I'm much more worried about fascists carting me off in the middle of the night than I am of Sony blacklisting my hobbyist web site.

  4. . . . and it won't just stop in the US . . . by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 2

    ... it seems that the US is committed to bullying other countries into enacting these laws themselves . . . or else . . .

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  5. Re:An idea... by jo_ham · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Thy tried that with the "recordable media tax" that applied to things like CD-R and DVD-R media, and to mp3 players in some countries. It was lobbied for by the music industry because "obviously" people buying recordable media would be burning illegally obtained songs so to compensate them for their "obvious" losses they got a cut of all CD-R sales via a price hike.

    Of course this didn't stop them suing people anyway...

  6. Doesn't stop there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Let's apply the SOPA logic to other things to... if someone asks you for directions to a bank and they rob it then you should be liable. Farewell GPS and maps, we barely knew thee.

    SOPA is a very silly piece of legislation but we already have the US attempting to extradite someone from the UK for hosting links. SOPA just codifies such gross stupidity in US law.

    1. Re:Doesn't stop there... by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 2

      Let's apply the SOPA logic to other things to... if someone asks you for directions to a bank and they rob it then you should be liable. Farewell GPS and maps, we barely knew thee.

      SOPA is a very silly piece of legislation but we already have the US attempting to extradite someone from the UK for hosting links. SOPA just codifies such gross stupidity in US law.

      Sadly logic works well in code, but craps out in reality.

  7. Congress Is the Best Party to Police the Internet by pcwhalen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Because they understand it so well.

    Take a look at "Dear Congress, It's No Longer OK To Not Know How The Internet Works" http://bit.ly/vOEEbt

    Senator Ted Stevens described the internet as “a series of tubes;” Rep. Mel Watt of North Carolina "seemed particularly comfortable about his own lack of understanding;" and Rep. Maxine Waters of California stated "any discussion of security concerns is 'wasting time' and that the bill should move forward without question."

    --
    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain with all your metadata.
  8. Then target political websites by doghouse41 · · Score: 2

    Just a thought - but if SOPA can be used to silence debate, this must apply just as much to the political as to the scientific process.

    I think that if you were to target politician's private websites and any websites associated with congress using SOPA then you might quickly find the act repealed!

  9. Bizzare initials by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    SOPA in greek means "shut up"
    PIPA in greek means "pipe" or (slang) "blowjob"

    1. Re:Bizzare initials by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      In Spanish it's "soup" and "sunflower seed"

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re:Bizzare initials by sunwukong · · Score: 2

      In Canada they mean "Standard Operating Procedure" and "Picture In Picture", eh?

  10. Re:An idea... by AlecC · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think this wouldn't work because it would "normalise" piracy. People who do not currently pirate would reckon that that they had paid for anything they wanted to download. so that they were free to do so. This would mean that piracy, instead of being 90% by people who would not by the media if they had to pay, would be done by everybody.

    Example from a childcare business who had problems with parents being late to pick up their children after work. They tried charging for overtime, and found that the problem went up, not down: people reckoned it was OK to be late if they were paying for it. (from Freaconomics, I think).

    --
    Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
  11. Re:What about a type of backup. by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A fair suggestion, but some issues.

    Aside from the technical issues - the real problem is that the US will just declare war on cyber terrorism - a phrase that can take on any meaning. And any country not on their side....

    Don't forget where ICAAN is - or do you think it's an independent organisation like the UN? If Microsoft can go on license raids with Russian police how long before Disney goes on door kicking adventures in Spain. Already ICE has declared war on counterfeit copies of goods that are not made in the US. And a UK citizen is being extradited for something that's not illegal in the UK.

  12. so where should one go? by khipu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'd like to know where that mythical country is that respects your Internet privacy and doesn't subject you to damage from arbitrary and invalid copyright claims. I haven't found it, but I'd sure like to move my server there.

    Internet connections in Europe are subject to monitoring without a court order, you may end up having to pay fines for mere allegations of copyright infringement without due process, the government can place viruses on your computer to monitor it, and many forms of speech that are legal and protected in the US are illegal and subject to prosecution in Europe.

    1. Re:so where should one go? by xavdeman · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'd like to know where that mythical country is that respects your Internet privacy and doesn't subject you to damage from arbitrary and invalid copyright claims. I haven't found it (...).

      Sweden. You should try PRQ.se, they host TPB. But they also offer Dedicated servers and Tunnels and anonymizers.

    2. Re:so where should one go? by khipu · · Score: 3

      I have my doubts. Sweden is subject to EU data retention directives (even if they have been dragging their feet implementing them) and permits warrantless wiretapping (backed up by a huge supercomputer). Sweden also has hate-speech laws that have been used to stifle free speech, and has used DNS filters to make sites inaccessible. And the Pirate Bay fate suggests that they are subject to similar copyright enforcement as other nations (the second largest damage award went to a German company, so this isn't just US-driven). In what way is it better than other nations? Furthermore, how well does Sweden protect the rights of foreign customers?

  13. Correct me if I'm wrong... by IronHalik · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...but won't SOPA/PIPA work both ways? Won't MAFIAA online distribution channels be affected as well? I could place my copyrighted work somewhere in comment/review section of their sitesand then cite PIPA to take the online store offline.

    I'm assuming that according to SOPA/PIPA, site owner is still accountable for what user posts.

    1. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong... by IronHalik · · Score: 2

      'All animals are equal. But some animals are more equal than others.'

  14. A Time to Act by Bucc5062 · · Score: 2

    I RTFA and thought it a little theatrical, but on point. So SOPA and PIPA may have or will have a serious impact upon social websites like FB, like Slashdot, like...all of them. I can see it also having an impact on search engines, consumer websites that allows reviews; So what are these companies doing?

    Were I head of Amazon or Google or Microsoft or FaceBook or Slashdot I would perhaps be on the phone coordinating some Act to indicate ones lack of support for SOPA, show what the Internet would be like after its law. I read (once) that there was talk to shut down major sites one day to give example to a crippled Internet....Where did that go? Businesses may lose money? They will lose a lot more if SOPA shut them down. (or will "big sites" get special treatment...that would frost some folks)

    So, you see, its hard for me to get upset, to rage against the machine, when the major operators of the machine don't really care. Changing a small section of this bill is not a win, getting it canceled is a win. This Ant can call his representatives all day and it will do nothing against the money in their pockets. What will get their notice is when the Web they and their constituents rely on is taken off line for a day.

    When I read that the Google boys, Facebook King, Amazon God, Lord Bill et al speak out loudly and long; then I care, its their world, not mine. If the Web (note, not network) shuts down today I'd jones for a bit on missing gmail, not buying online, not posting to "friends". Quickly I'd re-discover letter writing, going to a local store, and actually attempting to talk face to face (no book) with my friends. It's not my web anymore, it is Google's and their ilk. They don't have a problem with SOPA? Neither do I. I'll read about their success in the local paper Newsprint.

    --
    Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
  15. Re:An idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Yeah that example is from Freakonomics, but the important part of the takeaway was that they made the overtime fee too small, and the cost-benefit analysis made it worth more just to be late. The conclusion was that the fee needed to be higher. I think it we a daycare in Israel.

  16. Whitehouse responds by 7x7 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Obama Administration has responded to the petitions for stopping SOPA, PIPA and E-PARASITE. The good news: They oppose DNS intervention and action against anyone covered by US law. The bad news: They did not address deep-packet inspection or payment processors. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#/!/response/combating-online-piracy-while-protecting-open-and-innovative-internet

    1. Re:Whitehouse responds by Heddahenrik · · Score: 2
      Sorry, but that doesn't mean a shit. The Obama Administration was also "against" infinite detention of people without any kind of trial, of course Obama didn't veto it.

      The Obama Administration is just a bunch of bribed lying son-of-a-bitches like everyone else (except the mad ones) in DC, but people just eat their shit and keep quiet. I mean, what could anyone on the left do? Vote for Ron Paul, haha... ha... ha...

  17. Re:An idea... by zippthorne · · Score: 2

    Example from a childcare business who had problems with parents being late to pick up their children after work. They tried charging for overtime, and found that the problem went up, not down: people reckoned it was OK to be late if they were paying for it. (from Freaconomics, I think).

    Well, that's a bad example. They should've charged enough to cover the additional staffing during the overtime period. Then everybody wins - parents get the extra time they need, staff gets overtime pay opportunities, and the business gets more profit!

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  18. Block the government by sgt+scrub · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All IP addresses assigned to the U.S. government should be blocked by all of the major sites. Let them have no searches, webmail, webdocs, or video's, chat, or voip until they stop trying to break stuff they know nothing about.

    --
    Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
  19. What about arXiv? by Paxinum · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A few of my math colleges and I are a bit worried that arXiv, (a huge database where mathematicians put their results before sending them to journals), will be shut down. It is most probable that some material in that database coincide with material published in journals, and most journals have the requirement that you sign over the copyright to them, thus making the arxiv version an infringement. However, arxiv is the main source for mathematicians to quickly discover results that might be needed, or to avoid working on a problem which has already been solved. On a side note, there are a few extreme religious groups that oppose almost all form of science, so some might get tempted to shut down theoretical physics or other alternatives to "god did it all".

  20. Re:2nd ammendment? by bussdriver · · Score: 2

    Somalis compared to Americans?? It is a simple balance where any group put into our situation would act no differently. Humans are all relative in their judgements. You couldn't pick a larger contrast in the world-- the poorest and suffering vs the richest and pampered! They can't be fairly compared unless you think in relative terms; and even then none of this is quantitative so it is always going to be a subjective comparison.

    Humans don't function on fixed points they operate upon relative distances and you'll be hard pressed to find any evidence against this; all the science says so and that is where I learned about it. Hell, even vision itself is interpretative!

    A people put into a horrible situation where the risk is close to the risk of doing nothing have far less of a leap from inaction and action in terms of costs and risks to themselves and/or their families. That is when mass movements happen; when the gap between the two is small enough that a lot of people are willing to take it. There are always people on either side of the bell curve who are heroes/nutcases or cowards/benefactors. The "gap" is a distance that is transferable between situations; not the start/end points- its the delta that matters.

    There is NOT a lot to lose to these people by taking risks or sacrificing all when the gap becomes small.

    Possibly the most powerful but often forgotten is the whole culture's reaction - the peer pressure is so great; people only lie to themselves when they think they outgrew it; Americans are especially defensive about being individualists and it is really ironic! In American culture the activists are nutcases, hippies, losers, bitching, get a job... etc. for generations now. In Somalia, the fighters were/are much more publicly supported and at least far better understood than activists are here. You know, a major part of the design of the US was to civilize popular revolution and give it an outlet besides violent warfare. Now in recent times its becoming clear to people that system is not working and has only been placating people to trick them into believing they have a political outlet. If this understanding grows a new outlet will be needed until some change can be perceived ("let them eat cake" will probably suffice for another generation. Occupy may appease some for a while because its a movement that is building and I think that a cycle of building movements that fall apart due to ineffectiveness could keep people busy a while longer.)

    Rich Kings didn't have the same perspective and their relative judgement didn't make them cowards but they acted like cowards to those on the outside because of the perspective shift. Too much relative risk; so much so that the peasant couldn't comprehend it because their lives or even that of their family was LOW; they were already just slightly above bottom.... Which is why such horrific punishments were needed to control those people; to widen the gap between inaction and action. Midevil times, the Romans, and all those "primitive" societies needed their levels of barbarism. Don't think this is lost on people today; many in the USA were for illegal barbaric methods because civilized ones were not strong enough to control the "tarrist peoples" because they wouldn't understand otherwise. They understood, but more accurately it was about making them feel the proper amount of fear to drive the point home. In the USA they merely need to take away your SUV and your mind is blown at the loss. (exaggerating but still, its a relative thing... ah... take money from a baby and they don't care; take away the toy it is sucking on... )

    --
    Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news