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Viruses Stole City College of S.F. Data For Years

Posted by Soulskill on from the measuring-failure-in-decades dept.

An anonymous reader sends this quote from an article at the San Francisco Chronicle: "Personal banking information and other data from perhaps tens of thousands of students, faculty and administrators at City College of San Francisco have been stolen in what is being called 'an infestation' of computer viruses with origins in criminal networks in Russia, China and other countries, The Chronicle has learned. At work for more than a decade, the viruses were detected a few days after Thanksgiving, when the college's data security monitoring service detected an unusual pattern of computer traffic, flagging trouble."

71 of 93 comments (clear)

  1. Human failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "students and faculty have used college computers to do their banking"

    That's the main problem. Using sensitive data through public locations such as a college computer is not, in any way, safe.

    1. Re:Human failure by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Insightful

      After years of explaining this to people, I have come to the conclusion that no matter what people are going to do it. Simply put, if banks allow people to log in to their accounts from random computers, people are going to do so without any regard for security. It is convenient, and the one thing you can expect people to do is something that is convenient.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:Human failure by hedwards · · Score: 2

      Yeah, that's not something that I ever do. I logged into my email one time from a random computer, but that's the only time. I did change my password shortly thereafter and didn't have any trouble.

      These days what I do is run a virus scan from a write only thumbdrive before I do anything at all on a strange computer. (If anybody is curious, I'm using a kanguru flashblu 2 with a portable antivirurs program and it works just great for that)

    3. Re:Human failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      write only thumbdrive

      That sounds pretty useless

    4. Re:Human failure by Wootery · · Score: 1

      These days what I do is run a virus scan from a write only thumbdrive before I do anything at all on a strange computer. (If anybody is curious, I'm using a kanguru flashblu 2 with a portable antivirurs program and it works just great for that)

      If you're making the effort, you could just as well keep an Ubuntu live-boot USB key.

      Your only security worry then would be hardware keyloggers, and you'd get the considerable bonus of not having to suffer a strange computer's browser - few things are more horrifying than IE with only half the window's real-estate usable for plugins.

    5. Re:Human failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You can't trust the results of that scan unless you booted the machine using the thumbdrive. Otherwise, the rootkit installed on the machine will prevent the portable AV from seeing anything wrong. This is pretty basic. Yes, your process will catch a fair percentage of bad stuff. No, it doesn't make it safe at all. Of course, you may not be able to boot to your drive if the bios is out of your control or the machine's hard drive is protected with encryption. But the only way to be sure there is nothing on it is to scan from a known good OS. That still won't help you with physical key loggers, etc. Bottom line - you should stop thinking your process makes you safe.

    6. Re:Human failure by hitmark · · Score: 1

      People doing taking care of private affairs during work hours is a old story.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    7. Re:Human failure by Khyber · · Score: 4, Funny

      No! It's a GREAT layer of security! You can't load into memory what you can't read!

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    8. Re:Human failure by hedwards · · Score: 1

      It depends what you're doing. I shouldn't have implied that I'd be typing in passwords to such a machine because you are indeed correct about that. I also shouldn't have implied that I would be logging into a banking site like that. I load up my own web browser and don't log into any site where I'm not using an OTP as part of the set up.

      I'm mostly worried about viruses on the odd occasion where I'm needing to check email at a cyber cafe.

    9. Re:Human failure by hedwards · · Score: 1

      The only problem with that is that you're not necessarily going to be able to get online in that fashion. True it is more secure, but by the same token if one needs to go online one is going to have to take some risks.

      And since it wasn't clear, I don't personally visit banking sites like that nor do I log into sites where I don't have a OTP as part of the log in requirements.

    10. Re:Human failure by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Yeah in a small town library several days ago I saw people doing their banking on public computers.

      --
      http://michaelsmith.id.au
    11. Re:Human failure by datapharmer · · Score: 1

      is that manufactured by /dev/null technologies, inc?

      --
      Get a web developer
    12. Re:Human failure by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      You should boot from the USB drive and then scan. Kaspersky has one.

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    13. Re:Human failure by midtowng · · Score: 1

      As a recent former student of CCSF, I find this very disturbing. Fortunately, I always paid for my classes either in cash or by check. Never by credit card. I've always been paranoid about giving out personal information, especially online. Now it appears that I wasn't paranoid after all. You aren't paranoid when they really are out to get you.

    14. Re:Human failure by tlhIngan · · Score: 3, Informative

      After years of explaining this to people, I have come to the conclusion that no matter what people are going to do it. Simply put, if banks allow people to log in to their accounts from random computers, people are going to do so without any regard for security. It is convenient, and the one thing you can expect people to do is something that is convenient.

      It's called Dancing Pigs. A user will most likely pick convenience over security.

      And any bank that prevents logging in from public computers will be laughed out of business - people expect to be able to bank anywhere and everywhere. Even on their cellphones (they can't wait to go home and do it then...).

      No way around it, unfortunately, and educating the user is a pointless exercise because they'll just go back to their old ways.

      Perhaps if the bank issued them special keypad calculators that could compute transaction hashes (for two-factor authorization) things would help. But no.

      And given banks already use Wish It Was Two-Factor, things won't be improving at all.

    15. Re:Human failure by bejiitas_wrath · · Score: 1

      That happens a lot I am sure, there is no security, I bet the computers were running Windows XP. The local library I visit sometimes has Windows XP computers with SP2, in 2012! There needs to be a better default operating system we could deploy in these circumstances that would do a better job of security. But if there is a hardware keylogger hidden behind the machine, then the most secure OS in the world will not protect you.

      I can not manage my website on their computers as I need to use port 2083 to connect to the Cpanel software and they have blocked that. What purpose does that serve? They block that, but 4chan was still available. Still, if you have banking to do, better to use a machine that you personally have control over and not one that is administered by a foreign party.

      --
      liberare massarum ex ignorantia, clausa descendit molestie.
    16. Re:Human failure by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      The worst thing is, assuming you trust the staff, a college computer lab is managed by paid staff who you would assume have some level of competence...
      The average home computer on the other hand is not.

      The difference from a hacker's perspective is that the average home computer, while horrendously insecure and usually not managed by someone with an IT background, only has one user to steal bank details from... A lab computer may have several.

      A lab computer is also more likely to have a shared authentication system linking them together, making it much easier to compromise all the machines at once.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    17. Re:Human failure by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Even if you boot from trusted media to run the malware scan, there is no guarantee that the system won't be infected with a piece of malware for which your scanner has no signature.

      A better approach, although obviously not foolproof...

      Boot from the thumbdrive, and then use that OS to access the internet...
      Make sure the OS has an on screen keyboard or a non standard key mapping so as to confuse any potential hardware keylogger.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    18. Re:Human failure by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      The library here has a 50/50 mix of imacs and xp boxes, the imacs tend to be in use while the xp boxes sit idle...

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    19. Re:Human failure by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps if the banks had better opening hours, people could actually go to the branch when they were out and about instead of having to use the cybercafe next door.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    20. Re:Human failure by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      "students and faculty have used college computers to do their banking"

      That's the main problem. Using sensitive data through public locations such as a college computer is not, in any way, safe.

      So let's just get rid of internet banking entirely, as it can never be 100% secure?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    21. Re:Human failure by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Perhaps if the banks had better opening hours, people could actually go to the branch when they were out and about instead of having to use the cybercafe next door.

      I've only gone into a physical bank in recent years to pay in accumulated bags of coins.. Apart from having ATMs I really don't know why they bother having branches any more.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    22. Re:Human failure by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Perhaps if the bank issued them special keypad calculators that could compute transaction hashes (for two-factor authorization) things would help. But no.

      My bank kinda does. HSBC gives you a little red keypad thing which generates a code you need to log in with. Once in you can repeat actions you have done in the past, e.g. paying off a bill, but if you want to do something new like set up a money transfer to an account you have never sent money to before then you have to enter another code.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  2. Missing details by msobkow · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The article really doesn't clarify whether these are viruses that are detected by anti-virus software on the market, or something novel and malicious that could only be detected recently. However, the tone of the article suggests poor management and an utter lack of protection from assault, rather than some incredibly creative black hats at work:

    Shortly before Hotchkiss arrived at City College, a new firewall was installed. Technicians set it up to block pornography sites, which are notorious for transmitting computer viruses.

    Then faculty began complaining to Hotchkiss that students needed access to porn sites. For research.

    Eventually, given examples of the academic necessity, Hotchkiss had to remove the porn block.

    I can see the need for some sociology or psychology students to access porn, but only a very few on very specific projects. Methinks some faculty spanking material was the greater concern than student access to "research data" which could have been addressed by granting specific machines a bypass in the firewall configurations.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:Missing details by PseudonymousBraveguy · · Score: 2

      I can see the need for some sociology or psychology students to access porn, but only a very few on very specific projects. Methinks some faculty spanking material was the greater concern than student access to "research data" which could have been addressed by granting specific machines a bypass in the firewall configurations.

      Methinks the porn blocker was probably overzealous*, and blocked way to much.

      * In general, those blockers come in two variations: The overzealous type, which gets in the way of normal usage, or the useless type, that blocks next to nothing.

    2. Re:Missing details by bmo · · Score: 1

      >Methinks the porn blocker was probably overzealous*, and blocked way to much.

      This is the problem with filters. They don't block enough of the "bad" material and they block too much of the "legitimate" material.

      For instance, I am currently in the library down the road from my house, and the filter blocks scribd of all things. But getting around the filter is as simple as going to a proxy. Access to porn is as simple as just finding something that isn't in the filter, which is surprisingly easy, like simply going to reddit's "gonewild" section.

      Another example is the filter from OpenDNS. For shits and giggles I used to meta-moderate classifications. I have to say unequivocally that the most "prolific" members who classify websites are the most wildly error-prone.

      As a result, filters seem so much like snake oil.

      --
      BMO

    3. Re:Missing details by hedwards · · Score: 1

      It's usually a matter of poor management when these things happen. There are malware programs popping up all the time that aren't detectable, but those tend not to remain undetectable for years.

    4. Re:Missing details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't know WTF porn sites you guys are visiting, but there are PLENTY of them out there that have no popups, no viruses, and fewer ads than MSNBC. Serioiusly. Porn sites with viruses are NOT porn sites. They are VIRUS sites that use porn to attract virus clickers. Did you learn nothing from Anna Kournikova?

    5. Re:Missing details by msobkow · · Score: 1

      Damn good point. I've never caught a virus from a porn site in 20+ years.

      In fact, they've only fired the anti-virus on REGULAR sites that had drive-by malware ad-banners hosted by GOOGLE of all places!

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    6. Re:Missing details by Corbets · · Score: 3, Funny

      Damn good point. I've never caught a virus from a porn site in 20+ years.

      In fact, they've only fired the anti-virus on REGULAR sites that had drive-by malware ad-banners hosted by GOOGLE of all places!

      In fact, porn has probably helped me not catch many a virus from the local gentleman's establishment...

    7. Re:Missing details by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      And porn sites are blocked by many filters, therefore reducing the potential targets for a malware spreader...

      Web distributed malware these days tends to come from legit sites, or legit banner hosts etc that have been hacked... When you have thousands of infected workstations running keyloggers it's not hard to capture a webmaster logging in to his site and then you can follow him in and add your malicious code to his genuine site.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    8. Re:Missing details by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Did you learn nothing from Anna Kournikova?

      Yes, that appearance trumps talent nowadays.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  3. Since 1999? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Article says they've had viruses lurking since 1999. What kind of network could possibly contain equipment that old? Also, not exactly a detailed story we've got there.

    1. Re:Since 1999? by FoolishOwl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A network that is heavily used by a chronically underfunded institution -- that's what kind.

    2. Re:Since 1999? by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Why yes, it must be the under-funding. It couldn't be anything from clueless IT, clueless administrators, or bean-counters with too much power over the IT department.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    3. Re:Since 1999? by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      All those things could have contributed to a security oversight. But I was answering the question of why the network would have ten-year-old equipment. CCSF has had several rounds of layoffs and course cancellations, and has had to completely drop summer courses. So under those conditions, old equipment may stick around for a while.

    4. Re:Since 1999? by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Do you have evidence of those assertions? Just what is it about the fact "a computer from 1999 is still running somewhere" automatically implies cluelessness? Hell, there's still computers out there from the *1950s* still running...are their operators clueless too?

    5. Re:Since 1999? by midtowng · · Score: 1

      I never worked there, but I was a student there, so I have some insight. CCSF was like a lot of old educational institutions - departments have their own domains. Thus, some departments might have had good IT support, and some probably had almost none. What is likely is that the main computer labs are fine, but the small, less-used computer labs are the ones with the problems.

    6. Re:Since 1999? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Virtualization may do that. Someone virtualizes an old machine with malware, and voila, there you go. You've just perpetuated the problem indefinitely.

      If they're using, say, Symantec products, it's really not difficult to see this problem being perpetuated, is it? Something from 1999 may not have had AV on it originally, but they realized later down the line it was necessary but thought it too old to be problematic... voila, instant perpetual malware vector.

      I recently found a machine which had malware on it for almost 2 years, and nobody had noticed. It had been used by a member of the IT staff. How didn't they notice? It's hard to say. It had AV on it. Modern tools couldn't detect the malware, but network logs very clearly indicated it was the machine at fault.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    7. Re:Since 1999? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      That's an "old" educational system? What's a "new" educational system? What you describe seems fairly common to me (regardless of the size of the school or its age, as I've seen both in hundred+ year institutions with under 2,000 students as well as in modern for-profit educational organizations with tens of thousands (and everything in between). I know that many, many universities still do this.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    8. Re:Since 1999? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      it still occasionally spits out a report of its config to one of my email accounts

      And that email account is in Russia? ;)

      --
    9. Re:Since 1999? by theArtificial · · Score: 1

      Guess that's why more are retiring with 6 figure salaries, six-figure pensions soar for California school administrators.

      --
      Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.
    10. Re:Since 1999? by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      I was talking about layoffs of instructors and support staff such as counselors, not about the retirement of administrators.

  4. Not surprising by Niris · · Score: 3, Funny

    From what I've seen community college IT Tends to be pretty horrible. One of them out here had a server password of "password" and remoting on. Others tend to use a generic password on everything such as Mascot1 or gomascot1

    1. Re:Not surprising by jampola · · Score: 1

      Ooooo, thanks for the tip!

    2. Re:Not surprising by FFOMelchior · · Score: 2, Informative

      From what I've seen community college IT Tends to be pretty horrible. One of them out here had a server password of "password" and remoting on. Others tend to use a generic password on everything such as Mascot1 or gomascot1

      IT Dunce A: Crap! Someone out there knows our password "gomascot1"!
      IT Dunce B: No worries, I'll go ahead and change it to "gotigers1".
      IT Dunce A: Phew!

  5. Semi related drunk opinion here by jampola · · Score: 1

    But enforcing laws on bad security should reign supreme on the likes of SOPA and friends.

    1. Re:Semi related drunk opinion here by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Why, when we can just send the cops to go after the evil hackers?

      --
      Palm trees and 8
  6. CS Dept by Mannfred · · Score: 3, Interesting

    FTA: "It's likely that personal computers belonging to anyone who used a flash drive during the past decade to carry information home were also affected." The college has a CS department providing courses for "seasoned IT professionals" (as per ccsf.edu) and nobody notices viruses on their flash drives (etc) over the past 10 years? Unlikely.

    1. Re:CS Dept by FoolishOwl · · Score: 2

      It depends upon which classes you take, of course. CCSF has a couple of smaller labs used by CS and CNIT students. The big computer labs seemed to be used primarily by students watching movies, secondarily by students writing essays or doing other sorts of homework.

      I have to admit that one time, after using a flash drive on a Windows PC in the main computer lab at CCSF, and later using that flash drive on a Linux box, I noticed there was some sort of malware on my flash drive that would autoexecute on a Windows system. I wiped my flash drive, and I think I told one of the attendants at the lab about it, but I can't remember if I did. At the time, I thought of it as just an inevitable, but trivial, annoyance from using a busy shared computer lab with Windows PCs.

    2. Re:CS Dept by ArundelCastle · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The college has a CS department providing courses for "seasoned IT professionals" (as per ccsf.edu) and nobody notices viruses on their flash drives (etc) over the past 10 years? Unlikely.

      I don't think we're talking about the era of Stoned on a boot sector anymore. If this is a decade of organised crime, it's going to be a bit more sophisticated.

      You might want to check out Stuxnet before you presume any amount of caution or aptitude can so easily subvert a sufficiently developed worm. Whatever someone might think about how people "over there" do things, I feel it's a safe assumption that the professionals working at a middle-east nuclear plant would also be qualified to work at a San Francisco college.

    3. Re:CS Dept by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Judging by the intellectual capacity and knowledge of their CS/IT graduates, not fucking likely. I'm surprised they're able to remain accredited.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    4. Re:CS Dept by Nyder · · Score: 1

      ...

      I don't think we're talking about the era of Stoned on a boot sector anymore. ...

      oh the memories, my first infection. At the time, i was stoned, and my computer booted up and told me it was stoned, and I was like, sweet, dude...

      Then i realized something wasn't right, and proceeded to infect a few more disks.

      Good times!

      Also, I'm am currently stoned right now. =)

      --
      Be seeing you...
    5. Re:CS Dept by Sardaukar86 · · Score: 1

      Good times indeed! Where would we be without our Vitamin M? :-)

      --
      ..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
  7. Not the first time by fwarren · · Score: 1

    This is not the first time this has happened. It is just the first time we have heard about a virus being in place for a decade and not being detected.

    I am sure there are more colleges and government agencies that are compromised like this.

    As an added bonus. This is why you should post AC when posting from College.

    --
    vi + /etc over regedit any day of the week.
  8. Blame the foreigners by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Who, other than me, thinks that this would be a non-story if it weren't able to be blamed on THOSE EVIL FOREIGNERS. This story would be buried otherwise.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  9. Correction by dtmos · · Score: 3, Insightful

    when the college's data security monitoring service finally detected an unusual pattern of computer traffic. . .

    FTFY.

  10. Marco by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 1

    Marco. Paging Marco Polo. You need to go settle your debt with that China character. That is not Uncle Sam's debt. Marco. You were supposed to settle all of that a long time ago.

    Amerigo. Amerigo Vespucci. You're in debt. Your hip is dropping into the well. You need to go wrestle on that hill like Jacob did.

    "Eh. No way. Tell Colombus to get in the box and he'll cough one up when he gets back."

    Amerigo von Spratt (could eat no lean) wanted his name on something--he got two big ones. The really rich say that Chris was the lucky one because he put his name on the small country.

    --
    the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
  11. Okay... by lightknight · · Score: 1

    So, exactly what viruses were installed on these machines? Were they internet common, or something more targeted?

    Is this simply a failure to install some decent anti-virus software, or something more involved?

    --
    I am John Hurt.
  12. Firewall from the inside. Erase after. by khasim · · Score: 1

    From TFA you quoted:

    Technicians set it up to block pornography sites, which are notorious for transmitting computer viruses.

    So you KNOW that you'll be going to sites KNOWN for "viruses".

    Wouldn't you limit that kind of access to only a segment of the machines AND firewall them from the other machines so they cannot infect everyone AND erase the drives on a regular basis?

    And, just for fun, give the computer science people access to the drive contents to that they can use the viruses found as examples in their classes. Under similar, controlled, conditions.

    1. Re:Firewall from the inside. Erase after. by msobkow · · Score: 2

      No, I'd suggest loading a VM for surfing questionable sites, and nuking it after you're done.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  13. Re:What's right is... by fruitbane · · Score: 1

    Yes, that is exactly what the government is doing right now in regards to proper due process.

  14. Re:CS Degrees @ UCSF = NO JOBS FOR BS! by NivenHuH · · Score: 2

    UCSF doesn't even teach computer science; UCSF is a medical school.

    The article is about CCSF (a community college).

    --
    Just when you make it idiotproof, some idiot builds a better idiot.
  15. Windows viruses by couchslug · · Score: 1

    It DOESN'T go without saying, except here.

    Relentlessly remind people that viruses are largely a consequence of running a "virus farm" OS.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    1. Re:Windows viruses by midtowng · · Score: 1

      CCSF is only partly Windows. The old, established part of the computer system is HPUX and Linux.

  16. Viruses Conceal Themselves - SOP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It is now a basic technique of any "respectable" virus to inject itself into the windows kernel and assure any access to infected executables or other components of the virus is being masked.
    So scanning an already infected system is a very, very pointless endeavour. Actually it will lull you in a false sense of security. And believe, even the best virus scanner can't do anything against that. You would have to boot your own WinPE or something from that USB stick to stand any chance against modern viruses.
    If you can boot, then boot into something like DSL (damn small linux) or knoppix. Checking an existing windows system is a waste of time - it is safe to assume it is already penetrated by several viruses.

  17. Try blocking breast cancer research as breast by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    In a school / research area porn blocker just end block stuff like breast cancer research and other stuff Even more so in a med lab.

  18. Same IT full of clueless managersthat terry childs by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    clueless managers and some time even techs I thing that terry child's even saw some install viruses on the severs maybe even the same ones.

    It's good that he did not give up the password over speaker phone in a room full on managers no telling how much they would of F* stuff up.

  19. university CS = high level theory tech school = IT by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    And there is a lot that is can be / is best learned on the job.

    A 4 year CS is to long and is missing alot stuff that you can learn in a 2 year tech school.

    But I say you take the 2 year tech school and make it in a rage from 1.5-3 year mixed class room / apprenticeship / on the job training. also have DROP IN on going education as part of it.

    in IT there is the book / cert test setups and the real world filled old software / lots different 3rd party vender / software setups / hack jobs and so on that you can only get a feel for by doing the real work. Also DROP IN on going education is some there a tech school can do where a university is a very poor setup for.

    Also the university has lot's of filler and fluff classes that in the same time can be better filled in tech class out side of your core area. Let's say need to fill a class

    out side of your core IT area what is better tech school visual basic or a university art history? also a tech school can have hobby / not full time classes as some
    filler / out side of the main core area stuff. Where a university can take stuff like Underwater Basket Weaving and find a way to make in to full time class.

  20. Re:What's right is... by fruitbane · · Score: 1

    WTF? How did my comment get appended to this topic? I thought I attached it to a different one. Sorry, folks.

  21. The Only Real Way by rally2xs · · Score: 1

    is to write a check, stuff it in an envelope, and drop it into the US Mail to pay your bills. Offline. Making withdrawals means drive to the bank, use your passbook, withdraw cash. If there's any computer viruses involved in those, it won't be YOUR fault and should be protected by FDIC insurance. Hopefully.