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Ask Slashdot: Best Open Source Answer to Dreamweaver?
An anonymous reader writes "I've been looking for an open source alternative to Dreamweaver, and haven't stumbled upon anything that works the way I need. Aptana and Bluefish are fantastic tools, but I cannot work exclusively with them, since Bluefish doesn't have that WYSIWYG functionality that is so important when you're also dealing with design, and Aptana doesn't have classic ASP support. I don't care much about the classic ASP support, but, even though I'm a PHP developer, I give support to classic ASP code on a daily basis. What open source tools are you guys working with out there? I'm really not looking for a Dreamweaver clone, just a tool that gets closer to cover my needs: WYSIWYG, PHP, HTML, CSS support, and less important, classic ASP support."
Agreed. WYSIWYGs like DW only seem to muck up all the hard work I put into making my html look clean and concise. They add their own stupid DIV tags and ugly CSS code making it impossible to understand what's going on should you need to make edits without them. Think of it like writing source code, then trying to edit the assembly code when you make edits.
WYSIWYG editors are wildly helpful when it comes to saving time and opportunities to typo your code. If you can put together an error-free 7x9 table in Notepad++ in five seconds, get off Slashdot and get back to your hyperproductive life. (Also, I call BS.) If time and accuracy are no object, it's a hobby or you're learning. In those cases, by all means, use a straight up text editor, because you're writing web pages for the joy of doing it, or you need to do it more to practice and get better at it.
For the rest of us, who do this sort of thing for a living, or as a time-sensitive project, we need pages coded quickly and accurately, which is why we (convince our employers to) pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for products like Dreamweaver. The split view in Dreamweaver is really useful for doing tricky layouts. Let the program do the heavy lifting by dropping in whatever blocks/tables/whatever that you need, tweak the code as necessary to get the desired result, push the changes up to pre-production, and get on to the next thing that needs to be done ALL WITHOUT SWITCHING WINDOWS. It doesn't leave out tags, it doesn't typo parameters, it doesn't forget the name of that one variable you need to change to get what you're looking for.
If you're shunning tools to make you more productive in the name of intellectual purity, you're just being difficult and spiteful to yourself, your boss, your employer, your client, or any number of other stakeholders, people who need to see the work done for a reason other than to demonstrate you can do it.
tl;dr: No.
Dare to Hope. Prepare to be Disappointed.
I couldn't imagine how you could keep your code to any real standard and keep it readable while using WYSIWYG product. On top of that, modern websites use javascript and dynamic content all of which those editors just don't handle.
A better solution is a nice theme and a nice CMS system.
Not everyone has the luxury of a large, diversified staff. Some people have to wear a lot of different hats.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
I didn't, but when the web designer for my company showed me what his work was like I was convinced that he could use a text/HTML editor, but it would take him 5 times as long to do his job.
That is the problem with the OSS community....developers working without a layer of people who are willing to listen to users to find out what they need instead of arrogantly telling them what they will find useful.
Most web designers don't go near HTML/CSS. The workflow is that usually designers produce their work in Photoshop. CSS folks then produce (X)HTML/CSS templates which are later implemented into the web application / CMS. Even those designers who do both usually don't actually design in their browser.
I've been looking for an open source alternative to Dreamweaver, and haven't stumbled upon anything that works the way I need.
You've given a couple of criteria, but the question that I think needs to be asked/answered is why are you looking for an alternative? Is it for ideological reasons, or are you hoping for a cheaper product, or does Dreamweaver not measure up somehow, or...? Knowing the answer to that question could take the discussion on a different path.
This question crops up a lot on Slashdot ("I want an open source alternative to ...") and it always generates some interesting discussions, along with mentions of products that may be new to people, and that's good. But it often seems (or is blindingly obvious) that the questioner is really just looking for an open source product "because I want to support open source". And that's fine as far as it goes, but at some point you have to go with "the best tool for the job is abc".
Depending on your context, "best" may change. For some people, the most important criterion is it's affordable. Open source sometimes meets that requirement better than closed source. But just realize that if you go for open source software just because it's open source, you may get something that's inferior in terms of feature set, ease of use, or other measures. If it's for personal use, and you're okay with that, dandy. If it's for business use, however, and you're trying to proselytize, this may not be the way to do it.
To each their own.
Great advice for novices or amateurs. I do work in a web shop, and all the designers here have access to Dreamweaver licenses if they want it. I can't remember the last time any of them actually used it. They all have Creative Suite Web premium or whatever it is, photoshop, etc. They are more productive without Dreamweaver. You want to see what your code looks like in browser? Then look at it in a browser. Editors are for editing, and browsers are for .... browsing. Works great.
SilverLight. They technology behind it stunning. You can also use C# to developed. For video sites there's also a HUGE difference compared to flash - with SilverLight the client and server will adjust to the available bandwidth the user has.. in flash this would just show up the loading icon and stop playing. SilverLight is technically much better than Flash.
Makita. They power drills let me build anything. So why not web sites? You can also use your hands to use them. For tables built with power drills there's also a HUGE difference compared to hammers - with Makita the carpenter and sitter will adjust to how quickly they can drill.. with a hammer this would just show up as unfinished nailheads sticking out on the surface. Makita is technically much better than a hammer.
*picks up his fat paycheck from Makita* Welp, my work here is done.
My work here is dung.
You understand that not everyone has the same goals and requirements that you have?
As a piano player, I always felt that the ukulele was a terribly limited instrument. The range too small, only four notes at a time, not a lot of projection. Until I played the ukulele and realized that an entirely different level of expression was possible with an instrument where you could manipulate the sound-creating elements directly with your fingers. But of course, neither a ukulele or a piano is a chromatic harmonica or a hammer dulcimer.
Just because you value certain attributes of a tool for creating a web page doesn't mean everyone does.
No. I don't want to think of it like writing source code. I want to think of it like placing objects on a blank page. I want to be able to manipulate the elements directly, and think of shapes and locations and colors as shapes and locations and colors, not hex code.
The guy asked a simple question, and as usual he is told, "No, you mustn't want what you want, you must want what WE want!"
So, let me repeat the question: What's the best open source replacement for Dreamweaver? Points off if your answer is a text editor.
You are welcome on my lawn.
but it bears repeating - WYSIWYG IS BAD. Learn to write HTML, it's very easy. I know, I know, I'm bordering on flamebait here, but I'm gonna say it anyway. And I'll readily admit that Dreamweaver's WYSIWYG helped me quite a bit when I was learning HTML, but most editors that use WYSIWYG have quirky implementations and don't render quite the way a real browser will. I ended up spending more time troubleshooting and digging through generated code trying to make things work than I would have it I had just sucked it up, put on my big boy pants and wrote my own code. It's fine for a beginner as a tool to help learn, but nothing more. If you have a dual monitor setup, open a browser on one screen and the editor (if you insist on open-source, I recommend Notepad++) in the other, and every time you make a change in the editor, hit refresh in the browser. I promise, if you take the time to learn HTML properly and invest a little time and energy up front, it will be well worth it in the end. --Potential DBag comment-- I own a small web dev shop, if you walked in and applied (even as a "designer") and you couldn't hand code basic HTML/CSS and needed a WYSIWYG editor to do your work, I would drop your resume in the trash on the spot. I don't expect designers to be code masters, but in this day and age, there is absolutely no reason why a designer shouldn't be able to take their images and turn them into decent HTML. --End DBag comment--
So, let me repeat the question: What's the best open source replacement for Dreamweaver?
Emacs! :-)
Points off if your answer is a text editor.
It's not a text editor! It's a lifestyle!
Agreed. To put things in perspective a little bit:
I design and print artwork for a living. I *could* create all my vector prints using Postscript, and all my raster images using a hex editor and encapsulating the image data between Postscript tags prior to print. In fact, I could then rasterize these files for print by cross referencing all of the color data required on a pixel by pixel basis, then converting this pixel data into the bit format (including header data and possibly frame order) of the inkjet I want to use. Oh, and then I could send the data to the printer, bit after bit after bit, making sure I close the data connection so I can ready for the next job.
I actually do have the knowledge to do all of those things, and for the most part I could provide pretty good results, once I was done debugging and manipulating the data. But it would take hours or days to complete a single job. By using tools (Illustrator, Photoshop, a RIP, ICC profiles, a proper printer driver, etc) that automate all the boring, repeatable, and tedious stuff, I'm far, FAR more productive. Sure, there's no way in hell I could edit an .eps from Illustrator by hand due to all of the extra crap in the file, or modify a data stream on the fly, but it "just works".
I don't think it's unfair for web developers to want to find tools that automate their workflow. The arguments about "bloat" or "30 seconds to load the page" or "can't edit the code" aren't complaints about WYSIWYG in general; those complaints are about shitty WYSIWYG applications. Lean on the companies companies that make these programs instead of leaning on the folks that want to use them, because automation is badass and here to stay.
I agree with but since no one seemed to have any answers for this person...
I have not used these but they seem to be options a Dreamweaver replacement.
NVU http://net2.com/nvu/
Quanta Plus http://freecode.com/projects/quantaplus
Amaya http://www.w3.org/Amaya/
Blue Griffon http://bluegriffon.org/
Hope this helps the original poster.
Oh and if you just want free as in beer.
http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010-editions/express
I have used any of them but out of this is you will probably find something that will fill the bill.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I'm going to tag a little on to this just to agree. There simply is no equivalent to Dreamweaver in OSS. Nothing holds a candle to it. I feel like I'm sounding like an Adobe salesman in this topic, but honestly...it's a really well made tool. If it worked in Linux, it would be even more perfect. I've used MANY MANY OSS tools for web development and they all kind of suck as a replacement for Dreamweaver. No, I don't want a glorified code editor. No I don't want a tool that gives me like 2 options for formatting text. I basically want Dreamweaver and that's sort of what the op needs to recognize. You don't want something like Dreamweaver...you want Dreamweaver. The interface is perfect, the code cleaner than 90% of the WYSIWYG editors out there, and the code editing window is very well done.
It really is disappointing that no one has an answer to Dreamweaver though. I've been searching for an alternative for years. Every once in a while I get a wild hair up my ass and go on another hunt and usually come up empty handed. Yes, there are some great tools out there...but they just aren't at the same level. You can't really complain though because like the other guy said...OSS developers are making the tools that they want to use. Not what you want to use.
I will say though that I'm getting tired of the snobbishness in this topic. There are uses for these editors that don't involve the user being an idiot that doesn't know how to code. I've been doing it almost 14 years and I still use the editors because they make certain things much easier and bring the whole thing together for me. Yes, I could do every single thing by hand, but that would be a waste of time. I'm not getting superior code for making tables and bolding text when I do it by hand. The people that zealously believe that are just being assholes. There are some things that you need to code by hand so that your code is not a giant shit cake, but a surprising amount of this stuff can be done rather efficiently with the GUI in Dreamweaver. It is easier to select a cell class from a drop-down than it is to remember and type in the extra " class='fancytableclass'>" into your code window. It just is. Especially since I usually do the structure of the page first and then style it afterwards.
The editors have their place for a competent web designer but they've gotten a bad name because they are easily used by people that don't know what they are doing to make very very bad looking websites. These editors are a phenomenal tool for someone that is doing coding and designing at the same time. It helps me do these things a lot quicker than I could otherwise. It's not a matter of not knowing how to code...I'm well versed in HTML and CSS...it's a matter of it doing its job well when used by people who know what they are doing.
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - BenF