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LightSquared Says GPS Tests Were Rigged

itwbennett writes "Would-be cellular carrier LightSquared claims that the company's LTE network was set up to fail in GPS interference tests. 'Makers of GPS (Global Positioning System) equipment put old and incomplete GPS receivers in the test so the results would show interference, under the cover of non-disclosure agreements that prevented the public and third parties from analyzing the process,' LightSquared executives said on a conference call with reporters Wednesday morning."

19 of 186 comments (clear)

  1. Really? by Zeromous · · Score: 5, Insightful

    >old and incomplete GPS receivers

    I'm not an expert in the deployment of GPS, but is this not what we would consider a real-world test? Why should they be set up to pass the test, by only testing the latest deployments of GPS?

    Don't you test, in order to understand previous unknowns or to flesh out previously unforeseen scenarios?

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    1. Re:Really? by jonbryce · · Score: 5, Informative

      They own a slice of wireless spectrum which is supposed to be used for satellite communication, and they want to use it for ground based cellphone communication.

    2. Re:Really? by holmstar · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, they bought a band that is designated for low power satellite communication and are trying to get the designation changed to allow high power terrestrial communication. They aren't an innocent bystander in this mess.

    3. Re:Really? by CompMD · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is a real world test. LightSquared has this fantasy that people replace GPS hardware like they do cell phones every two years (or less). There are LOTS of GPS receivers out there that are 10+ years old, and they can't grasp the fact that THOSE WORK FINE.

    4. Re:Really? by PhxBlue · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't be an idiot. GPS receivers don't broadcast -- that's up to the satellites, which transmit timing and location data on two separate bands (three for newer GPS-IIR and IIF satellites).

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    5. Re:Really? by RockClimbingFool · · Score: 5, Informative

      Troll much?

      GPS receivers are designed to filter out the neighboring frequencies, when the neighboring frequency sources are satellites transmitting at power levels comparable to GPS satellites.

      That is how that portion of the spectrum was designed and allocated. LightSquared is trying to use terrestrial transmitters at these frequencies. GPS receivers were never designed to filter out their signal from neighboring sources that are literally a billion times more powerful.

      You don't know anything about RF transmission and why there have always been transmission power restrictions on the allocated spectrum. The spectrum allocation was specifically designed to prevent this exact situation from occurring.

    6. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      It comes down to the fact that there is currently no way to reliably demodulate and decode a signal sitting down at -130 dBm (roughly the strength of a GPS signal in some areas) while you're experiencing interference trillions of time stronger as a result of sidebands from a base station.

      It's a fundamental concept that all time limited signals mathematically have infinite bandwidth. However, the FCC defines bandwidth by the region where 99.99% of the power resides. Let's say you have a 150W base station. That would mean up to 1.5e-2W is outside the targetted frequency band. Now lets assume about .001% of that power resides on top of the band where your signal of interest is coming in. That would mean 1.5e-7W is on top of your signal of interest or (-38dBm). For reference, the signal at -130dBm is roughly equivalent to 1e-16W.

      The numbers above are general estimates used for illustration, but lets say that only .0000001% of the base stations power falls into the band where your signal of interest resides. That interfering signal is still sitting at -68dBm while your GPS signal is sitting at -130dBm.

    7. Re:Really? by Dishevel · · Score: 5, Informative

      If Joe sells you an off road vehicle then you try to get it licensed to be street legal do not get pissed at Joe because it will not be allowed on the road.
      Radios are very complicated. Till I got my current job I had no idea how little I knew about them. Get education on the subject. They are attempting to use this spectrum in a way in which their current license specifically prohibits. Also it is prohibited for a very good reason. They are trying to change their license and it is that change that is causing the problems.

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    8. Re:Really? by rahvin112 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And they got a steal on the residential parcel and if they can get it rezoned for the skyscraper it's worth 100X what they paid for it. This was nothing more than a gamble to try to get spectrum reallocated to ground prices. They paid almost nothing for spectrum that if it was ground based would be worth almost 6 billion (based on the last auction). The entire reason the spectrum is cheaper is that it costs $2billion minimum to put a satellite in orbit to use it.

      Lightsquared is neither innocent nor deserving of sympathy. They were told multiple times the waiver they were given was for testing. It would be foolish of the FCC to not allow them a chance to prove they have developed filtering technology capable of working around the physics. When their testing showed their signal would destroy high precision GPS they had the gall to suggest that the billions of installed GPS receivers have to be replaced that's when they lost all sympathy from me. I have a feeling they've not only known from the begining that this would never work but that they thought they had the political muscle to move it through. Not only that but I don't believe they ever really intended to build a network, but their real intention was to get the spectrum usage switched then sell it 10X what they paid for it.

    9. Re:Really? by tlhIngan · · Score: 5, Informative

      And thank god for that. Forget the millions of drivers for whom GPS is a convenience; LightSquared would spell an end to the major advanced in aviation navigation systems and the accompanying time- and fuel-efficiency gains that have come with it. Check out Canadaian airline WestJet's use of so-called "RNAV" approaches into airports; their use of GPS in those systems saves them millions of dollars in fuel every year, plus gives them and their passengers the benefit of faster trips. No more bouncing around through the 3000 or so VHF Omnidirectional Radio beacons that dot North America.

      Actually, you mean RNP (Required Navigation Performance) which are a set of approaches that are more efficient, but require that the plane have onboard a minimum set of equipment. And one of this is dual RAIM-locked GPS units.

      A RAIM-locked GPS is a receiver that can see more than the 4 minimum GPS satellites - and all aviation GPSes have utilities that can take a location (destination) and time and calculate whether or not a RAIM lock is achievable (it depends heavily on the satellite configuration at that point in time).

      Primary purpose of RAIM is to help the GPS decide if a satellite is "out of whack", which is essential if you need to figure out your position accurately.

      RNAV is slightly different - it requires a flight management system that basically generates a GPS-like path by taking in multiple navigation sources like VORs and NDBs and calculating a virtual track based on your position relative to those navaids. So you're not flying navaid to navaid, you're flying a course through but using the navaids to cross-reference your position continually.

      These days, a combination of RNAV, INS (Inertial navigation system) and GPS are used altogether to get very accurate positioning required for RNP. (RNP dictates the minimum performance your navigation equipment can have - you can always use better equipment to fly the RNP approaches more precisely).

    10. Re:Really? by kaiser423 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Exactly. They took relatively cheap satellite spectrum (cheaper, because you have to put satellites in orbit) and tried to get it re-purposed as ground-based spectrum, which costs billions of dollars more. It was really pretty ballsy and elegant; make your spectrum worth billions of dollars more just by filing paperwork and hoping that you slip by. The REAL kicker came in when DirectTV, and pretty much every single company that owns satellite spectrum said "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" and all filed paperwork requesting the same waivers. I mean, you can't expect them not to try and make the spectrum that they already own worth billions more. So, the FCC got flooded with all of these waivers, realized that this was going to destroy spectrum allocations across the US and cause untold disruptions as you open up massive chunks of bandwidth to high power, ground-based transmitters. We're not talking about just knocking out GPS. If LightSquared got approved, they'd have to approve other companies waivers also, and but pretty much every single service that relies on a satellite would go kaput. Pretty simple decision for the FCC to make....

  2. Fraud, sour grapes, or late complaint? by davidwr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If this is fraud on the GPS companies' part or the testing authority's part then there should be hell to pay.

    If this is sour grapes then LightSquared just libeled the companies involved.

    If, on the other hand, "old and incomplete equipment" tests were a required part of the test for good reason, then LightSquared is a bit late in its complaints - it should've made these complaints well before testing happened, and its current statement should've started off with "As we said before the tests were run, testing for old and incomplete equipment is not a valid test...."

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    1. Re:Fraud, sour grapes, or late complaint? by LehiNephi · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you follow the link in the earlier story, 69 of the 92 GPS receivers had issues. That's either a lot of interference or a lot of older GPS units.

      And even if it's old equipment, in my opinion it's still fair game, provided they're not all some obscure model that sold only a couple hundred units.

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    2. Re:Fraud, sour grapes, or late complaint? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      It doesn't matter what sort of equipment was used or what claims Lightsquared is making. It comes down to the simple fact that there is currently no way to reliably demodulate and decode a signal sitting down at -130 dBm while you're experiencing interference trillions of time stronger as a result of sidebands from a base station.

      It's a fundamental concept that all time limited signals mathematically have infinite bandwidth. However, the FCC defines bandwidth by the region where 99.99% of the power resides. Let's say you have a 150W base station. That would mean up to 1.5e-2W is outside the targetted frequency band. Now lets assume about .001% of that power resides on top of the band where your signal of interest is coming in. That would mean 1.5e-7W is on top of your signal of interest or (-38dBm). For reference, the signal at -130dBm is roughly equivalent to 1e-16W.

      Disclaimer: The numbers above are general estimates used for illustration purposes. Actual conditions may vary, but it is unlikely that they will vary in such a way that will let you reliably recover your signal of interest.
      Your -130dBm signal is

    3. Re:Fraud, sour grapes, or late complaint? by makomk · · Score: 5, Informative

      So ASSUMING Lightsquared, operating 100% within their spectrum, and not interfering with GPS frequencies, could still interfere with GPS because the GPS Unit itself is using part of Lightsquared's spectrum for filtering purposes.

      They can't filter out LightSquared's signal. It'd be the metaphorical equivalent of trying to spot a candle flame standing next to a searchlight. It's just not physically practical. Worse still, LightSquared managed to get their spectrum at a huge discount exactly because it was technically unsuitable for the purpose they're trying to use it for now and the rules forbade that use - and then somehow managed to lobby the FCC into ignoring the technical side of things and let them go ahead anyway.

  3. There are old receivers in use by joe_frisch · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A lot of aircraft GPS receivers are quite old. It can cost 10-20K$ to put a certified receiver in a light aircraft, so pilots will keep their existing equipment as long as possible. Changing the requirements on interference resistance might require very expensive re-certifications of these receivers.

    1. Re:There are old receivers in use by AB3A · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Parent post is quite correct. The largest cost of a GPS receiver in an aircraft is NOT the electronics itself, but the installation and certification process, not to mention the database updates.

      Remember that it has to work with many other transmitters and receivers nearby, including a Mode C or Mode S radar transponder required for most metropolitan regions, a UHF (403 MHz) ELT, a pair of VHF transmitters, possibly an HF SSB radio or an old DME system, and maybe even a weather radar. --and that's just the stuff that is supposed to deliberately transmit. Receivers can radiate their local oscillators...

      The bottom line is that when you put safety of flight navigation equipment in an aircraft, it has to be tested and certified before it can be used. Lightsquared would like us to just "replace it" with something new.

      I'd like to put their executives in an airliner filled with their damned LTE phones landing on a CAT III approach on a dark and stormy night. We'll see how "rigged" those tests were.

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  4. Sooo not buying this load of crap by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    1) GPS manufacturers are not a direct competitor to a wireless networking company. If Verizon or AT&T were complaining they might have a case.
    2) GPS was there first.
    3) Clearly the Lightsquared hardware is spitting out a harmonic which could be fixed but would probably make the devices much more expensive to produce.
    4) Lightsquared has been trying this case in the court of public opinion by running full page newspaper ads instead of dealing with the technology issues.
    5) Lightsquared has been making huge political donations and receiving government grant funding which makes the whole thing stink like old fish.

  5. It's not about filters or defective GPS design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    it's not about filters, nor is it about "GPS listens outside its band"

    GPS receivers have "wide open" front ends and always have for good engineering reasons:
    1) Spectrum planning ensured that there's no high power signals in adjacent bands (i.e. the adjacent band is also for satellite signals)
    2) "brick wall" filters are heavy, expensive, large, and have bad effects on the inband signals (see, e.g. any digital audio application since CDs started being sold 30 years ago). Your cellphone has GPS that is as small as it is partly because you can use a fairly wide open front end that doesn't require a lot of filtering.
    3) GPS signals are below the noise floor, allowing use of 1 bit ADCs in receivers, reducing cost and complexity in receivers.

    There's quite a bit of arguing about what is an appropriate propagation model from L2 terrestrial transmitter to GPS victim. L2 would like to use a conventional communication model. GPS folks would like to use a jammer/interference model. The difference isn't in the "mean power" but is in where the outliers are. For comm, your concern is that your worst case low power deviation is still high enough that you can "close the link" (i.e. not drop the call). For interference, your concern is that the worst case high power deviation is still low enough that it doesn't interfere with your link. The problem is that in urban environments, the distribution isn't uniform and is highly skewed (lots of reflecting surfaces and multipath.. distance isn't as big a factor as just the number of bounces). There's lots of deviations below the mean, but small ones, and relatively few deviations above the mean, but they are huge (e.g. "hot spots"). We're talking 15-20 dB difference between the 5% low end and the 5% high end

    There's also arguing about what "performance degradation" is acceptable. L2 would like to claim that 6-8 dB is ok, while GPS industry would like to use 1dB. That's because communications uses error correcting codes and such, and can tolerate dropouts and degradation. GPS is more like radar, and relies on measuring the timing of the signal, and doesn't have as much in the way of error correction or error tolerance, so they've historically used the radar standard of 1dB degradation. The GPS industry is a bit stretching here, because with new receiver designs (which might consume more power and be bigger) they could probably deal with the worse interference environment. But that's a 10-20 year kind of project.

    So the tests were fair, with published test criteria, and only now, a week from their deal with Sprint expiring (after a 30 day reprieve) they're starting to raise these questions.