Pentagon Drafts Kids To Build Drones and Robots

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Pentagon Drafts Kids To Build Drones and Robots

Posted by samzenpus on Friday January 27, 2012 @01:05AM from the war-kids dept.

MrSeb writes "In a world where warfare is fast becoming fielded by remote controlled and autonomous robots, innovation is the key to victory. The most technologically advanced superpower can see more, plan better, and attack from further away than its inferior adversaries. What better way to revolutionize the drone and robotics industry than use the brilliant minds of our children? That's what DARPA and the Defense Department's research and development arm thinks, anyway. The Manufacturing Experimentation and Outreach Initiative, part of the Adaptive Vehicle Make project, is slated to reach a thousand schools in and out of the country, roping in the brightest minds to develop robotics and advance technology in new and interesting ways. Funded by the Department of Defense, the program comes with a steep cost: The DoD wants unlimited rights to everything the students build. It sounds almost like something Orson Scott Card would dream up."

33 of 173 comments (clear)

Min score:

Reason:

Sort:

Too much Hollywood for you?? by rodrigoandrade · 2012-01-27 01:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

"In a world where warfare is fast becoming fielded by remote controlled and autonomous robots..."
You've been watching way too many sci fi movies to make that statement.
Besides that US, I don't think any other country has the kind of robotic arsenal you're dreaming of.
1. Re:Too much Hollywood for you?? by JoeMerchant · 2012-01-27 01:14 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  See: Remote Control War, available on Netflix watch it now. It may not be the robotic arsenal _you_ are dreaming of, it's a different one, and probably bigger and more capable than you imagine.
2. Re:Too much Hollywood for you?? by errandum · 2012-01-27 01:40 · Score: 2
  
  http://theaviationist.com/2012/01/20/neuron-roll-out/ the europeans disagree with you
3. Re:Too much Hollywood for you?? by JoeMerchant · 2012-01-27 01:45 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  "Besides that US, I don't think any other country has the kind of robotic arsenal you're dreaming of."
  The US spends almost as much each year on the military as the entire rest of the world combined. It's hard to even count how many conflicts we're currently involved in. We're the trendsetters. And robotic warfare is the trend we're setting.
  The U.S. spends 5% of GDP on military endeavors, down from 10% 50 years ago. Perhaps still too much, but less than a lot of countries.
4. Re:Too much Hollywood for you?? by xclr8r · 2012-01-27 01:48 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  We call them drones because they do not do actions (other than stabilization or stay on course) without initiating the action by a human. Robots do things automatically without user intervention - i.e car manufacturing by a robot is completely automated via sensory/trigger input unless a an interrupt is encounter to stop. In actuality we should be calling the remote operated vehicles (ROV) but drone rolls off the tongue easier.
  
  --
  Beware of those who profit off the docile and persecute the unbelievers.
5. Re:Too much Hollywood for you?? by thelexx · 2012-01-27 02:50 · Score: 2
  
  According to this page:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
  the US outspends everyone on a GDP basis except Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Jordan, Iraq, Oman, Israel, Eritrea, and Chad.
  And on an actual dollar basis, the difference is truly staggering.
  
  --
  "Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
6. Re:Too much Hollywood for you?? by Xyrus · 2012-01-27 02:53 · Score: 2
  
  "Besides that US, I don't think any other country has the kind of robotic arsenal you're dreaming of."
  The US spends almost as much each year on the military as the entire rest of the world combined. It's hard to even count how many conflicts we're currently involved in. We're the trendsetters. And robotic warfare is the trend we're setting.
  The U.S. spends 5% of GDP on military endeavors, down from 10% 50 years ago. Perhaps still too much, but less than a lot of countries.
  Your using percentage of GDP to make it seem like the US spends hardly anything on the military. That is, at best, misleading. Half of our national budget goes to the military.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
  The US military budget exceeds the rest of the world's combined military budget by $200 billion. Our military budget represents about 43% of world military spending. We spend 586% more than China, which is second place (our budget is about $700 billion, theirs is about $120 billion). The only country that spends more as a percentage of GDP is Saudia Arabia (10.4%) and their GDP is considerably smaller than the US.
  No matter how you look it, we spend A LOT more on our military.
  
  --
  ~X~
Not at all shocking. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-27 01:11 · Score: 3, Interesting

The DoD wants unlimited rights to everything the students build.
Just like Apple wants rights to the e-books made with their ebook software,
Or how Corporations want the rights to whatever you create, on or off the clock.
How many of you remember the old days when DARPA made a CAD package with tax dollars and felt the citizens should have full access to that source code?
1. Re:Not at all shocking. by Registered+Coward+v2 · 2012-01-27 01:43 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Just like Apple wants rights to the e-books made with their ebook software
  Apple doesn't want the rights to the ebooks made with iBook Author - all they say is any book made with their software, which they provide for free, can only be distributed ,in Apple's iBook format created by the software, by them. The author owns the content and can do whatever else they want with it, just not with Apple's software.
  While I would like Apple to release a version of iBook Author that created a standard ePub formatted file that could be used on other devices, and I would pay for such software, I don't think their current terms are unreasonable and the notion that "Apple wants the rights" is simply FUD.
  
  --
  I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Portal 2 by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-27 01:17 · Score: 2, Funny

Why does this bring to memory the "take your children to work day" in the game? "Here, kid, see this potato? That's boring, let's play with a grenade!"
Time well spent by slidersv · 2012-01-27 01:20 · Score: 2

Well, at least kids are not going to do drugs after school. And it'll give them common intellect-based goal, creating communities of capable people, which in turn can spur interesting startups and just maybe even the next Google. It's just so much better to invest in people, than to buy overprised pieces of outdated warfare machinery. Manhattan project also sounded pretty evil, but it turned out to be pretty good.

--
there is no issue with my network
1. Re:Time well spent by unixisc · 2012-01-27 01:37 · Score: 2
  
  Fully agree w/ this - that's exactly my thought. This way, kids get good practical experiences that they can put on their resumes, and use later on in their line of work. It also reduces the need for conscription, and since such products are consumable items, some of which will be destroyed by enemies, it will have to be manufactured. Since it's a defense item, it's not something whose manufacture can simply be dumped on China. This could start the trend of some manufacturing coming back to the US, and such technologies becoming dual use later, going into ciivilian use. Now, if only something could be done about preventing such manufacturing from later on slipping into China. Probably, by then, the cost of Chinese manufacturing would be high enough that it won't be an advantage for the US to move manufacturing there.
Insufficiently radical thinking... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-01-27 01:21 · Score: 4, Funny

Why use the brilliant minds of our children to merely build drones and robots when we could use the brilliant minds of our children to control drones and robots?

As a bold step down our path toward becoming a computerized, transhuman dystopia, I suggest, nay, Demand, the following proposal be enacted:

All the nation's youth shall compete in brutally demanding cyber-athletics championships. Every year, the most superb competitors will be selected for the Ceremony of Transcendence. After a celebration of their excellence, their brain-meats shall be harvested and join the honored ranks of the Bottled Warriors, fully modular brain support and interface tanks suitable for high-density containerized installation for remote control of America's drone assets, or direct incorporation into locally controlled robotic weapons platforms.

There would be a minor downside, in that the battlefields of the future would start to sound like the hell-world of Xbox live, as LRAD units with the minds of 14 year old gamer kiddies scream "NOOBFAGGOTHACKER!" loud enough to turn a man into gooey paste; but our combination of mindblowing immaturity and stonehearted resolve would terrify our foes into submission...
Human rights violation? by dokc · 2012-01-27 01:21 · Score: 2

I would say that every use of children for military purposes of any kind is a violation of international human rights: Military_use_of_children#International_human_rights_law
and especially interseting part is:
"Under Article 8(2)(a)(xxvi) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC), adopted in July 1998 and entered into force 1 July 2002; "Conscripting or enlisting children under the age of fifteen years into the national armed forces or using them to participate actively in hostilities" is a war crime."

--
In love, war and slashdot discussions, everything is allowed.
1. Re:Human rights violation? by RazzleFrog · 2012-01-27 01:26 · Score: 2
  
  Yeah that's a pretty big stretch.
2. Re:Human rights violation? by SuricouRaven · 2012-01-27 01:28 · Score: 2
  
  But this isn't participating 'actively,' any more than is paying taxes to a government that spends part of them on war.
3. Re:Human rights violation? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-27 02:13 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Remember you can't have slaughter without laughter!
4. Re:Human rights violation? by LWATCDR · 2012-01-27 02:23 · Score: 2
  
  "All true, but it doesn't make it less scary. Children will be used to design weapons."
  So what you are saying is that that the post that I replied too was in fact completely invalid and while everything I stated was in fact the truth it just doesn't matter.
  "Children will be used to design weapons."
  No they will not. This is a DARPA program. The "kids" will not be tasked with designing weapons. They will not be given projects like "Build a robot that can shoot 10 people but not hit friendlies". Get real this will be a basic science project kind of program. They will be given project like, create a robot that can travel through sand, gravel, and mud.
  You are the one living in fantasyland not I. You are so blinded you dismiss pure manipulation when you see it because you happen to believe in the goal.
  Look at your own reply. You said that I was 100% correct and factual but that didn't matter and throw you some vague emotional attack at me.
  Really, have critical thinking skills completely disappeared?
  
  --
  See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
5. Re:Human rights violation? by iamwahoo2 · 2012-01-27 03:00 · Score: 2
  
  I would say that every use of children for military purposes of any kind is a violation of international human rights: Military_use_of_children#International_human_rights_law
  and especially interseting part is:
  "Under Article 8(2)(a)(xxvi) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC), adopted in July 1998 and entered into force 1 July 2002; "Conscripting or enlisting children under the age of fifteen years into the national armed forces or using them to participate actively in hostilities" is a war crime."
  According to the website, they are not necessarily designing military items. It specifically identifies items like go-carts and mobile robots in the program description. However, I will agree to the extent that having the military involved in education is a slippery slope as it has the potential for abuse and really is no value added. The reason that the military is involved in this is that Congress has budgeted a specific amount of money for STEM. Congress could just as easily provide this money to other organizations for STEM or to schools directly with the stipulation that it is used to build extracurricular STEM programs. Perhaps an effort should be made to advocate for this money being given to programs through differenet means or as an alternative, put safegaurds in place to protect children from the loss of innocence that comes from building war machines.
not a new idea by snookerhog · 2012-01-27 01:21 · Score: 3, Interesting

somebody watched Toys
Cool idea... Wrong agency to do it. by Bill_the_Engineer · 2012-01-27 01:26 · Score: 2, Interesting

I wouldn't feel as bad if it was something done by the National Science Foundation (NSF) or NASA. However having the DoD do it where their emphasis is security and not science makes me worry. There is also the feeling that this will teach our children that it is okay for the government to spy on its citizens with drones and robots. At least with NSF and NASA there is the pretext that this could be done for science in a grand scale like remote sensing (drones) or in hostile environments like deep sea exploration or vulcanism (robots).

--
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Did anyone go to the DARPA website? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-27 01:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

Did anyone go to the DARPA website and read what they're doing? They have lots of material on the objectives of the effort. They talk about signing contracts with several large companies and universities. This is your standard DARPA effort for thinking outside of the box. And I saw nothing, I repeat nothing, that suggests that DARPA is trying to subvert the youth of this country.
The U.S. government is EXTREMELY corrupt. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-27 01:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

By some measures, the U.S. government is the most violent government that has ever existed. The U.S. government has 6 times the percentage of citizens in prison as European countries. The U.S. government has invaded or bombed or interfered destructively with 27 countries since the end of the 2nd world war. The U.S. government killed more people in Iraq than Saddam Hussein. The U.S. government believes it can torture or kill anyone at any time. The U.S. government can require executives of U.S. companies to take actions without disclosing what was done.
In comparison, taking intellectual property while giving little in return is a smaller crime, but it is a crime.
In what other country would Newt Gingrich or George W. Bush be considered a serious candidate for public office? They are or were candidates only because they deliver corruption.
All of that destructiveness will soon become much worse. The U.S. government is trying to arrange a war with Iran. That will benefit people like the Bush family who have investments in companies that profit from war. It will benefit Israelis who want U.S. taxpayers to pay for Israel's security. It will hurt U.S. taxpayers who will discover that their money will lose value even faster than before.
1. Re:The U.S. government is EXTREMELY corrupt. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-27 02:20 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  [sarcasm font on] Yes, but you really are failing to see the benefit here. These countries are blessed with an abundance of natural resources which the military rulers are pissing away by enslaving the people and buying guns from non-Democratic based countries. By intervening we are allowing our democratically based companies to help these poor people develop their natural resources and improve their lives. We only take our half of the revenue as fair compensation for helping to develop these countries and the lives of the people. We help these people develop their self esteem and independence as we educate them in how to properly serve in crony capitalism.
  
  This is not corruption; this is enlightened self interest. [sarcasm font off]
2. Re:The U.S. government is EXTREMELY corrupt. by kilfarsnar · 2012-01-27 03:40 · Score: 2
  
  It's interesting to me that even though you had your sarcasm font on, what you typed is pretty much the line that Americans are fed by their government. And a lot of them still buy it somehow.
  
  --
  "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
3. Re:The U.S. government is EXTREMELY corrupt. by WillDraven · 2012-01-27 04:01 · Score: 2
  
  The only way to control crime is to lock up lots of repeat offenders and throw away the key.
  Not necessarily, if you make less things illegal, by definition, crime goes down. We could lower our crime rate incredibly simply by ending the failed drug war. Unfortunately we have allowed prisons to become a private enterprise who lobby hard to keep business booming.
  
  --
  This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
Re:Drafting Kids ? by ArcherB · 2012-01-27 01:52 · Score: 2

In the latest months of WWII, when lacking adult soldiers, the German army drafted kids, too... Are the USA at this point of exhaustion ?
(oops, did I win a Godwin, here ? ;) )
You are close. Before the war, the Germans supported several programs encourage kids and hobbyists to make things like planes and rockets. They used the ideas and the education value to build their war machine into the most advanced army in the world. I think that is what the US is doing now.
Note: My post is not a Godwin. These German programs are not what made the Nazis evil. It's simply what made their war machine the most advanced. What started as a group of hobbyists called the Verein für Raumschiffahrt grew into the Saturn V and put man on the moon!

--
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Re:Ender's Game: The Prequel by Threni · 2012-01-27 02:06 · Score: 2

How long until insurants in Iraq, Afghanistan etc use Raspberry Pi devices to power their IEDs? Add some USB semtex, a camera (for manual booby-trapping), 3g/wifi connectivity, solar power (or a small battery). The poor man's drone!
Re:That's crappy by shadowrat · 2012-01-27 02:09 · Score: 4, Funny

The problem comes when the kids grow up and decide to use this against their former masters
Yes, but when that happens, it's because those kids have to right the wrongs. they do noble things like find a new world for the hive queen to live on and learn the ways of the piggies, and redeem humanity. Though it's true, they are never quite as interesting as when they were kids.
Re:Yeah, Kids don't know better yet... by synapse7 · 2012-01-27 02:10 · Score: 2

Mommy: What did you do at school today? Johnny: My drone killed 4,500 people.
Please re-read with Dramatic Anouncer voice. by VortexCortex · 2012-01-27 02:28 · Score: 2

"In a world where warfare is fast becoming fielded by remote controlled and autonomous robots, innovation is the key to victory. The most technologically advanced superpower can see more, plan better, and attack from further away than its inferior adversaries. What better way to revolutionize the drone and robotics industry than use the brilliant minds of our children?"
Hollywood, listen up. I might actually want to see this movie.
On second thought, it might have to be an indie film due to the controversial nature -- Many people find brain extraction and cyberization quite offensive, especially when the minds of children are on the table...
Publicly funded research by Maximum+Prophet · 2012-01-27 02:31 · Score: 2

Funded by the Department of Defense, the program comes with a steep cost: The DoD wants unlimited rights to everything the students build.
How is this different that the call for all government funded University research to be publicly available?

Is the DoD asking for exclusive access, or just access? Will they be able to take a kid's research, classify it, and forbid that kid from ever working in that area again? (See Gordon Gould and his laser research for an example)

--
All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
beats the alternative by poppopret · 2012-01-27 06:56 · Score: 2

A kid could be coerced into writing a bullshit paper about Hemmingway, not paid a single dime, and... well nobody would even want to rights to that work. It's already in schools, and you really can't get away from it. Hemmingway isn't even useful on a resume, but "designed and built a weaponized UAV" sure is. Actually you could skip the resume and college even; get a SBIR contract and start your own business.