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Rockbox Developers Talk Open Source Firmware

Posted by timothy on from the be-thankful-for-their-hobby dept.

angry tapir writes "I recently caught up with some of the key developers of Rockbox: An open source firmware replacement for the stock firmware shipped on MP3 players. The project, which has been active for over a decade, currently supports products from more than half a dozen manufacturers, including Apple, Arhcos, iRiver and Toshiba. It involves extensive reverse engineering to figure out how the devices' stock firmwares operate, as well as the challenge of developing for greatly varied targets. You can read the interview here (or the full Q&As with the project's founder and some of the developers involved in it)."

34 of 179 comments (clear)

  1. secrecy is why rhombus-tech was set up by lkcl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Over time it's only grown to be even more challenging as over the years the companies involved have gotten more and more 'secret'. In the beginning you could actually read markers on chips in the devices and then search for the chips online and find data sheets for them that told us how to program them."

    i've done reverse-engineering, and yes it is exciting, but it doesn't really get results: it's damn hard work, and for what? you're always behind the times - never innovating, always riding on the coat-tails of companies who, as linus notes on page 2 of the interview, end up making hardware design mistakes, and you invested _how_ much time in order to find that out?

    so we set up http://rhombus-tech.net/ as an initiative to create open hardware that is actually desirable as mass-volume products, with free software developers being actively engaged and consulted on the hardware _and_ software development at every step of the way.

    there are several such initiatives that could really do with working together - the most recent one is the plasma "spark" tablet - except that there, unfortunately, they appear to have picked a tablet from a company that is known to be willfully committing GPL violations (zenithink). not too many people spotted that one, in amongst the otherwise-exciting news reports, whoops.

    1. Re:secrecy is why rhombus-tech was set up by Jojoba86 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why mod this up? It is an uniformed post from someone trying to push their own project. If the parent read TFA then they would have realized that Rockbox has got results from the initial days of when it was on the Archos Jukebox players, and for most players is ahead of the proprietary firmware (especially for those who are fans of open standards such as ogg). Rockbox is sufficiently mature that support for it is a factor when I'm looking at mp3 players.

    2. Re:secrecy is why rhombus-tech was set up by lkcl · · Score: 2

      "You've done reverse engineering; you didn't get results ."

      sorry, you've misunderstood. google "lkcl htc universal", "ct-pc89e", "lkcl hw6915", "lkcl htc blueangel" and "samba ntdom". i get results all right - _technical_ successful results. however, what i *didn't* get was the result "a mass-volume product pre-shipping with a GNU/Linux distribution out-of-the-box". it made absolutely no difference that i succeeded _technically_ in completing the reverse-engineering: the manufacturers still were not interested. this was the naive mistake that i made.

    3. Re:secrecy is why rhombus-tech was set up by Dan+Dankleton · · Score: 2

      Just a couple of small corrections: First, Rockbox is not Linux. Second, in some cases hardware manufacturers have worked with the Rockbox team (I'm thinking specifically of AustriaMicroSystems here, but others have too to various degrees.)

    4. Re:secrecy is why rhombus-tech was set up by maeka · · Score: 2

      AMS gave datasheets. http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/AustriaMicrosystems

      Sandisk gave dev boards and NO docs.

      Nobody else gave squat.

    5. Re:secrecy is why rhombus-tech was set up by lkcl · · Score: 2

      "When you have the wrong goal, it doesn't matter what you do, you will fail."

      that's what i learned from that failure, and changed the goal.

    6. Re:secrecy is why rhombus-tech was set up by lkcl · · Score: 2

      i apologise for the smell. i know you're joking in some ways but i do actually genuinely know what you mean, and what you're referring to. it's a really strange phenomenon that i've encountered so many times now (over 15 years) that i've had enough empirical evidence to be able to summarise it as follows. any person who is genuine can encounter me (even if i say nothing) and they will react favourably towards me. any person who is *not* genuine - who is either deceitful or dishonest - will *automatically* try to attack me. they will find absolutely any way that they can to discredit or undermine everything and anything, in any way possible. sometimes their actions are so extreme that even they begin to notice that they are doing something wrong; sometimes they don't.

      i'm a disruptive influence and an accelerator: what can i say? *shrugs*.

    7. Re:secrecy is why rhombus-tech was set up by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      And the amount of people that are actually actively looking for fucking Linux on an MP3 player? MAYBE 0.004% if you're lucky. It's called voting with your wallet chuck and most people don't give a wet fart about having a FOSS OS on a fricking MP 3 player! You might want to hack your toaster or SSH into your washing machine, but most people, you know the VAST MAJORITY that actually buys these things and thus who they are built for? yeah will most are happy with it OOTB or they wouldn't buy, and if they find it doesn't support some format that's where RB comes in.

      So your "solution" is a solution in search of a problem nobody but you and a handful of ubernerds actually have. this is why that open video card is going nowhere, why your open device will likewise do the same, its because nobody gives a good crap as long as the device does what they want it to and with RB you can play any damned thing you want, and THAT is what folks care about, not whether they can read some data sheet or SSH into the stupid thing, okay? Geez and folks wonder why Linux goes nowhere, you ubernerds wouldn't understand the consumer mindset if we did a fucking brain transplant!

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  2. Erm, yes? by sakdoctor · · Score: 4, Informative

    For sport. More rugged than any phone, long battery life, and disposable-y cheap if it gets smashed or wet.

    Also I have to display my lack of iDevices as an anti-fashion statement ;-)

    1. Re:Erm, yes? by vlm · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Weight. Never overlook the ability of fat rich people to spend $500 on a set of carbon fiber bicycle handlebars that are 1.3 ounces lighter than stock carbon steel. Oh, I can listen to my workout tunes using something that weighs 4 ounces less than my hefty iphone, and it only costs $50? I'm so there.

      Size. At least for the gym bunny crowd (exhibitionist mostly young and good looking women who don't actually exercise, but like showing off the goods to the guys who like watching) on some of those more ridiculous tiny tight spandex outfits where do you put a giant iphone? Walk around with it in your hand the entire time? That was the strategy at the gym I used to go to, they'd spend the whole time walking around trying to look at the guys who were looking at them. Some tiny dedicated mp3 players are nearly small enough to be a barrett (no thats a M82A1 rifle) .. barret (no thats for idiots who can't spell Barrett) Oh f it I mean that thing that you women clip in your hair. Even for an old guy like me who thinks "long distance" snow shoeing is hard core, less weight to carry always equals better.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:Erm, yes? by aztracker1 · · Score: 2

      Do you go at 6-7AM? Tends to be more women in the morning... however, I'm inclined to go in the evening.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
  3. OSS Rocks! by Digital+Vomit · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A friend of mine has a cheap mp3 player that he bought a couple of years ago. He flashed it with Rockbox and has had his battery life more than quadrupled!

    I don't know why companies are so loathe to take advantage of free software like Rockbox and, instead, insist on writing their own, lousy firmware. There are people out there who will do it better, and for free!

    Just imagine how much better things could be if closed source software were outlawed...

    --
    Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
    1. Re:OSS Rocks! by ByOhTek · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My first comment was going to be "because nobody but a major geek wants an MP3 player with a UI that looks that bad."

      But I hadn't seen the UI in a few years. I looked on Google and found some screenshots. Damn it looks nice now.

      Anyway, there is still the answer that "the companies want to control it". With the flexibility available from Rockbox, it would be much harder to control the user environment, which would make end user support much more difficult.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    2. Re:OSS Rocks! by vlm · · Score: 2

      Not even close, its a time to market problem. Classic cathedral vs bazaar thing. The mfgr wants to ship something that technical barely legally works as fast as freaking possible, unless they're apple. As long as it doesn't get returned to the store as "broken", its good enough. Only the rockbox people and apple want to make the "perfect" device no matter how long it takes.

      That brings up the marketing problem, that "noname mp3 player inc" markets to people who want the cheapest or are giving gifts or just simply don't care. The competition for the perfected rockbox device is the perfected apple device, not "noname mp3 player inc". You're going to totally confuse the management of "noname mp3 player inc" if you tell them their rockbox competes in the apple market space, when they think they're competing in the shovelware junk market space.

      There is no end user support of consumer devices. The most you can dream of is a foreign script reader telling you to reinstall windows. Its not a control issue.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    3. Re:OSS Rocks! by jeti · · Score: 4, Informative

      I once worked for a company like the one that provided your cheap mp3 player. There were several reasons for not being more open:
      1. The only legal music stores at that time insisted on DRM, which is largely incompatible with open source.
      2. Chip manufacturers only provide drivers in binary form. They also have extensive confidentiality agreements that made it impossible to release relevant code produced by us.
      3. Documenting and cleaning up code, reviewing licenses and releasing or integrating code is a considerable workload and has to be justifiable. I think people overestimate the resources that small companies can spend on firmware. The firmware for some of our products was implemented by three or four people.
      4. Our boss hated the idea that our competitors could get a leg up by using software that he paid for being developed.

    4. Re:OSS Rocks! by ByOhTek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The market isn't limited to "no name" and "Apple". MS, Sony and Creative are in there, at least. Although, Sony fits your no-name description to a T. Cowon, also a fairly unknown name, also has made good players in the past. Some people get these Non-apple players, believe it or not, because they have features that the apple player lacks.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
  4. Re:MP3 Players... by ByOhTek · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yep, even with SDCards, I don't think there are phones out there that can compete with some MP3 players in terms of storage.

    And, as the other poster said, you have issues of battery life as well.

    --
    Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
  5. I love rockbox by B1oodAnge1 · · Score: 2

    I've been running rock-box on a succession of Sansa mpfree players for close to 6 years now, and I love it.

    --
    RUGBYRUGBYRUGBY
    1. Re:I love rockbox by Blue+Stone · · Score: 2

      I was going to try Rockbox on my old and battered Sandisk Fuze, but when I investigated the benefots in doing so, I saw that the Rockbox firmware actually knocks 10 hours off its battery life!

      The lesson being that YMMV.

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
  6. Re:MP3 Players... by pugugly · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Poor, badly implemented playback with small storage and a lousy interface.
    Want Ogg? Flac? Decent Headphones? Good organization via tags?
    I would be a bit surprised if the iPhone didn't have quite a lot of that (Don't know, Don't much care). But your basic dumbphone doesn't.
    My MP3 player does very good on most of it - and with Rockbox installed has excellent results with all of it it plus the geek cred of playing Midi.

    Really, any good MP3 player ought to play Midi - {G}.

    Pug

    --
    An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
  7. Re:More than half a dozen? by jginspace · · Score: 5, Informative

    ... or go the full hog, list the half dozen ...

    Replying to myself. The list is: Apple Archos iriver Toshiba

    Plus: Olympus Packard Bell Cowon SanDisk

    Plus unstable port for models from these manufacturers: MPIO, Philips, Samsung

  8. Re:MP3 Players... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Informative

    Android plays Vorbis. iPhone doesn't. Windows phones will play Vorbis when hell freezes over.

    Android codec support is actually quite impressive.

  9. Grammar, grammar by jabberw0k · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Firmware" is a word like "software," "hardware," or "clothing" -- you cannot have "one firmware" and there is no such thing as plural "firmwares." You cannot have "a software" or "a clothing" -- you have a piece of software (or: a program), a piece of clothing (or: a garment), a piece of firmware (a firmware set, a firmware package, etc.).

    Please correct the article here: "how the devices' stock firmwares operate" -- that should be "...stock firmware operates..." as the device has one set of firmware, composed perhaps of several programs or packages.

    I registered on their bug tracker but cannot decipher to whom or how I should report this grammar error as a documentation flaw -- any suggestions?

  10. Re:MP3 Players... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    Actually, most MP3 players don't support flac without rockbox :-(

    All Cowon devices support Flac and even Creative shit supports flac nowadays. I guess most = stuff that needs iTunes.

  11. Re:MP3 Players... by jcreus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I got a MP3 player from about 4 years ago, from the prehistory. The battery life is amazing, probably 20 times greater than those "smart"phones. I use it every they, and I have to charge it every month or so (and the battery charges really really fast). Yet it plays music, and smoothly. I don't give a damm about other features.

  12. Then get a decent one by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 3, Informative

    Cowon has support it for a long time and I believe iRiver as well and I would be highly suprised if Archos doesn't either.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  13. Rockbox was the reason I bought my iRiver. by rjforster · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I had my iRiver H340 for less than 30 minutes before it ran rockbox. At the time of purchase it was, to my knowledge, the only way to get gapless playback and high capacity (40GB isn't enough now but it was the best you could get back in the day). I've tried it with a replacement SSD but while it works it is quite flaky and needs regular resets.

    It's a shame there are very few high capacity players on the market now, I would love to get a new device which supports:
    Lots of storage. Enough to encode all my CDs and a few 'try-before-you-buy' albums. Ahem.
    Gapless.
    Bookmarking capabilities that work with all files (apparently ipods require you to define things as an audiobook before they support bookmarking)
    ogg support so I don't have to re-rip my CDs (I'd compromise on this if everything else was offered - it's only a few weeks of feeding CDs to the PC)
    No need to 'make my own playlists' or any other such carp unless I want to. Music already comes with pre-defined playlists: also known as albums.

    If this ever happens it will most likely run rockbox - I doubt the hardware manufacturers would do as good a job.

    To Linus and the rest of the rockbox devs. Seriously. Thank-you.

  14. Re:Battery life and interface by Darkness404 · · Score: 2

    Because you always have it with you. If I feel like listening to some music for an hour or so, it doesn't drain the battery much more than slightly above average use. Just plug in a micro USB cord into the next computer I sit at (or my car charger if I'm in the car, or the wall charger, etc.) and in the next few minutes it will be all charged back up. That minor inconvenience is worth it when the alternative is carrying around a separate device.

    And no, it is quite possible. I have a cheap Motorola Android phone which I flashed with Cyangenomod to upgrade it to Gingerbread and I can long press my volume button up to change to the next song and press it down to go back. If I really have to stop the song I just pull out my headphones.

    And honestly the sound quality isn't too terrible, especially if you are in a noisy environment such as outside, in a car, etc. Of course, since I use cheap headphones, it might just be that.

    But, considering I use my phone for more than just music, it makes a lot more sense for me to carry it around rather than lugging around a dumbphone, MP3 player, camera, netbook, etc. All at once.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  15. Re:MP3 Players... by icebraining · · Score: 2

    I've yet to see an mp3 that supports over 48GB of storage.

    Not that it invalidates your choice, but there are MP3 players with 64GB, at least from Apple, Sony, Creative and Microsoft.

    --
    Dilbert RSS feed
  16. Rockbox Rules by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'm an AC -- always have been, always will be -- so no one will see the comment, but I have to post anyway, just to give a big thanks to the Rockbox team.

    I have an old-ish Sansa (e200), and despite the fact that it's now "ancient technology," with Rockbox, a good sized microSD card (which, BTW, wouldn't be recognized on the original firmware), and replacing the battery once, it still shines. IMO it's as good as any new shiny bling, and I'll probably have it until I do something silly like dropping it into a toilet.

    Seriously, Rockbox is a great application. With the stock firmware I would have gotten rid of it several years ago, but with Rockbox there is no need.

    I don't want -- nor need -- a smartphone. What I need is a good MP3 player, and I use it every day.

    Thanks Rockbox!

  17. Re:MP3 Players... by semi-extrinsic · · Score: 2

    This. My Sony mp3 player can play music for 2 hours after 15 minutes of charging from completely flat. Give it 2h of charging, and it plays music for 36 hours. Also, with a line-out dock cable and a FiiO E5 headphone amp, it kicks the shit out of my Android phone when it comes to sound quality/driving good headphones.

    --
    for i in `facebook friends "=bday" 2>/dev/null | cut -d " " -f 3-`; do facebook wallpost $i "Happy birthday!"; done
  18. Bluetooth won me over by bobbutts · · Score: 2

    Long time rockbox user on sansa devices, cheap and easy and lots of storage. However once I got an android handset with good ad2p performance and some wireless headphones I found myself not using the rockbox sansa anymore. Also spotify(and many others)/network allows for the network to cover for any lack of storage. If I want better quality sound I just plug some headphones in.

  19. Re:MP3 Players... by yotto · · Score: 2

    Many flight attendants make you turn off MP3 players too, thinking they somehow magically emanate plane-crashing radio waves.

    --
    Pulp Audio Weekly - Geek News and Reviews
  20. Re:MP3 Players... by kelemvor4 · · Score: 2

    Winamp does pretty well, and it's mostly just a clone of DoubleTwist, which is also quite good, and both free. But if you want a few more features, spending a whopping $5 is no big hardship, and gives you access to some top-rate apps.

    PowerAMP is a great player.. I think it's 5 or 10 bucks.. it plays everything I've thrown at it. My daughter has an iPOD touch; the native player sucks badly for file format support. Guess what, the android native player sucks too, as does the windows native player (media player) and presumably the osx native player.