Slashdot Mirror
Dutch ISPs Refuse To Block Pirate Bay
judgecorp writes "Two Dutch ISPs have complied with a demand to block the Pirate Bay, but KPN and T-Mobile are refusing to block the site."
Torrent Freak has a bit more info. T-Mobile at least seems to imply they would respond to a court order, and are merely refusing to take down sites at the request of a private entity.
I would sooner live in a world where blockbuster films were uneconomical to produce, and therefore simply didn't exist, than one where the internet miracle is smothered.
Die big content. Die.
No...
the 2 other ISP received court orders to do so.
Please read the article next time..
Two Dutch ISPs have complied with a demand to block the Pirate Bay
And which 2 ISPs would that be? Surely the submitter is not talking about the ISPs in the article he references, in which they were merely ORDERED to block TPB and makes no claims about who has COMPLIED.
Hint: XS4ALL is one of those ISPs which was ordered to block TPB, which I use, and which has not in fact blocked it.
That about sum it up?
Not really, no. If you read the article (or even the summary) you'll see it is related to Dutch ISPs and that it's BREIN that is the anti-piracy group making the demand. Also that the ISPs you've categorized as fearing the MPAA, RIAA and BSA (which are all American?) were in fact taken to court by BREIN, the court then ruled that they had to block access.
Not sure how you got modded insightful, it's not even close to correct.
I would like to personally apologize on behalf of my country, its legislators, and its judicial system. Frankly, I am embarrassed. Additionally, I have canceled my xs4all subscription. Xs4all - ironically known for holding the privacy and freedoms of its users in high regard - complied with this nonsensical court order and has since blocked thepiratebay.org.
I'm not quite sure what's happening with this country (and I suppose the rest of the world as well), but I know it's not good.
So basically 2 isp been forced to block piratebay by court order and the remaining 2 that has NOT YET received a court order refuses to do so on private request?
Wow, sounds exactly like how it should be! It's a miracle that they aren't bowing down to random requests even if it's likely that they can get a court order. Being likely to get a court order and having a court order are two different things.
That said, it's a shame about their court system.
What!? Read the ****ing article?!
This is slashdot! We *never* read the article before posting!
Ok, humor aside, the 3 orgs I listed have more fingers in foriegn pies than hentai monsters have tentacles.
Those 3 orgs play the tune that the other crony orgs dance to. I would be flabbergasted if they didn't have their tentacles rammed to the hilt and squirming hard inside on this proceeding. The degree of overlap and collusion between the american orgs, and the localized foreign ones is so great it makes very little sense to segregate them without becoming pedantic.
The article is misleading. The two ISP's that have complied have done so because of a court order, not because of their own choosing, which is explained in the referred article. BREIN (the Dutch RIAA) sued the first two ISP's and the court ordered them to block The Pirate Bay. Now that the court ruled in their favour, they have written letters to the other large ISP's in The Netherlands (KPN, T-Mobile and UPC) to also block The Pirate Bay. Those ISP's now refused, just like the first two, Ziggo and XS4ALL, too to block The Pirate Bay without a court order. Now it'll be a wait how that trial ends.
You forced me to post an American != World comment :(
The term common carrier is a common law term, which is seldom used in continental Europe because it has no exact equivalent in civil-law systems.
The dumb pipes argument is based on an American law. The 'telecommunications act of 1996' or whatever.
In short, no this doesn't about sum it up.
My own ISP Ziggo fought a courtcase with XS4ALL and lost. KPN is the owner of XS4ALL but they operate independtly. KPN and T-Mobile only got a request from Brein (Brain, although in dutch it is more the word for thought process then the lump of meat) and KPN basically said, after some deliberation and back-tracking that they wouldn't respond to a voluntary request.
KPN and T-Mobile are by now means heroes but have realized that doing such a thing without a court order is opening a can of worms. KPN is the formers monopolist goverment landline company, so they have experience with common carrier dillema's and are a bit to big to be easily intimidated. Go ahead, sue KPN, they will see you in court for the next century. Not because they are nice but simply because they know their business.
Ziggo currently has a page up explaining they have to comply for now with the order but are fighting it.
This is a real dillema in Holland, it was one of the countries that fought to get a Freedom on the Internet thing going and donated a large sum of money to it, just as this story breaks. The current government really doesn't need this right now as a right wing government is being beaten in the polls by a very left wing party who is now according to some, the largest party if elections were to be held. And this is not Labour left wing, this is real hardcore left, left of even UNIONS! *sound of American readers crapping their pants*
Nobody right now wants to be associated with Brein restricting the peoples access to their bread and circusses. The SP (the upcoming protest party) is against the ending of the tax on blank CD's that goes to artists. You might think this is a bad thing but the tax is fairly light. It is the content industry that wants it torn down IN exchange for removing the right to download and make personal copies etc etc. The SP is saying, "no, we keep the low tax on an outdated format and won't make any changes to the copyright laws in Holland until the content industry chances". And these guys are winning right now, oh not just on these policies but the old parties hardly want to give them even more ammo to fight on.
Mostly right now the situation is that Brein is making everyone in power extremely uncomfortable. It doesn't help their case that a famous dutch singer supposedly went bankrupt (awh, poor artists) and then it was found he had millions stashed away through tax freud... doesn't help the image of the struggling artist. The right wing government one success story with the middle class is the cutting of benefits to artists, the starving artist angle of Brein isn't being swallowed anymore by anyone. The right hates them for living on handouts and the left hates them for wanting to restrict freedoms to feed the rich... caught between a rock and a hard place.
The piratebay story has been playing for a long time and this is by no means the end of it. For now, the politicians have tried to ignore it but the problem with that is that it keeps getting bigger and bigger... all it needs is the right story of a minister promoting freedom on the internet and the link to said minister doing nothing to stop said freedom in his own country when there isn't a soccer match on TV.
Stay tuned for further developments.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Those 3 orgs play the tune that the other crony orgs dance to. I would be flabbergasted if they didn't have their tentacles rammed to the hilt and squirming hard inside on this proceeding. The degree of overlap and collusion between the american orgs, and the localized foreign ones is so great it makes very little sense to segregate them without becoming pedantic.
What does it have to do with the price of butter?
Two ISPs got a court order to block. One of these, xs4all, is actually part of the KPN holding. T-mobile is not a major player on the dutch consumer market. KPN under it's own name is quite big. Surprising pretty much everyone UPC, which is really big on the cable internet market, has also stated that it will not block without a court order. All of these will block when they get a court order to do so
You could be American. Then you'd constantly have to apologize for the RIAA and the MPAA. At least brein doesn't sue individual downloaders for 10k per song
Business lobby groups from one country manipulate and control the internal affairs of another, and you wonder what that's got to do with the topic? Did you even read the summary?
Not sure how you got modded insightful, it's not even close to correct
That's why it got modded insightful.
Why can't we build something like Bittorrent, but for Web pages? You browse to http://thepiratebay.org and you download pieces from scattered machines around the globe. No way to stop that. Luckily torrent files are small, and once you download the torrent file through a proxy ... even a slow one ... you're in business.
The 3 orgs I listed have more fingers in foreign pies than hentai monsters have tentacles
Ah, that made my day. Thanks for the chuckle
Our culture doesn't get smarter, it just finds new ways of being retarded.
Big movies might still exist. Avatar made at least a billion within a month (my guess from the budget and gross).
Even with the absence of copyright law, if they just had contracts with the cinemas to not do copying (and used watermarks to find out who breached), they might still make about the same. Most cinema operators should realize that the absence of "big movies" would also hurt them quite a lot, so they might take great efforts to ensure compliance. More people watch the "smaller movies" at home.
Despite rampant piracy in my country, I bet hordes of people are going to queue up to watch The Hobbit on the big screen (they sure did for LoTR, Avatar etc). Even my mom and her friends went to watch Avatar!
T-Mobile said they would do it if they got a court order... Of course they're not going to block it because a private entity told them to do it.
BREIN took some (small) ISPs to court to get blocking orders, and won. These ISPs have, reluctantly, implemented blocking.
Then they said: "Don't make us go to court to get orders for each and every one of you [ISPs]; because we will, and we will win, and you will lose money fighting us, and then have to block anyway, and we will hate you."
And nobody blinked. They said: "Sure; go and get court orders for each and every one of us. Because until you do, we're not doing anything you say. We have oodles of money and, thanks to people like you, we're in court and paying lawyers all the time anyway. One more lawsuit isn't a big deal, and it's better than the alternative."
And BREIN is basically going "Waaaah! We don't want to have to get orders for every single one of you, every single time! That's almost as much of a pain as suing every person who uploads! We want you to voluntarily do it! Why aren't you scared of us?"
BREIN are also trying to imply that just because they (have proved that they) can get a court order, that this implies that all ISPs are a priori required to comply, and waiting until they have a court order against them is somehow an abuse of the spirit of the law(!)
In Don Lafontaine's voice:
In a world where blockbuster films are so uneconomical to produce, the simply don't exist...
[close-up of unshaven DiCaprio taking a swig of Everclear]
A world where the internet miracle is not smothered...
[cut to LAN party with a bunch of stereotypical geeks]
Set your phasers on "funky"!
What's missing from the article is that UPC also refuses to block The Pirate Bay. http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/109331/upc-weigert-pirate-bay-blokkade-van-brein.html
Hi,
Not only t-mobile/kpn refuse to block, also UPC refuses. If you can read (and understand) Dutch, here's more info: http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2012/01/26/upc-gaat-the-pirate-bay-niet-vrijwillig-blokkeren/
I'm a bit confused though: the ruling was done at 11/01 and they had 10 days to comply: but only moments I could still surf to thepiratebay.org and do the usual.
Nope, it doesn't sum it up.
The 2 providers who will block were ordered by a court to do so.
The blocking providers are XS4All and Ziggo and they already appealed the ruling, but they still have to implement the block in the meantime.
The other providers were not mentioned in the court order and so they decide not to implement the block unless ordered by court...
T-Mobile is a daughter of T-Com which is a German company.
We had a Minister (google: "Zensursula") here trying to pull a similar stunt with pedophilia instead of piracy. She was also aiming for bypassing due process.
They took her back into reality the hard way and she hasn't been seen much on TV since then.
to irs, they are uneconomical to produce, and they are making losses. and yet, they keep doing them. can you believe all the recently made star wars movies made losses or insignificant profits ...
Read radical news here
BREIN (dutch RIAA) has been given carte blanche by the judge on submitting extra IPs and domain names that should be blocked by Ziggo and XS4ALL. No limits on how long they get it, or how many. This means that they get to veto every website and computer on the planet without an independent judge to verify their request. This is one of the reasons why the other ISPs are fighting this so adamantly. It's censorship by a private entity without any control whatsoever.
Record label accounting is similarly dishonest. Sign to a label, with a contract to cover the costs associated with album production, and find somehow that a fancy pair of shoes for an exec is legit production cost.
The other providers were not mentioned in the court order and so they decide not to implement the block unless ordered by court...
Well, at least they will way to see how the appeal works out before they start blocking anything. There's a fair change this ruling is reversed in the appeal in which case implementing a block right now is simply a waste of time for the other providers. But if the order sticks in the appeal I expect other providers to implement the block as well. If they don't they will be sued and loose as well, there's no point in going to court when there is clear jurisprudence.
I have an App, it is pirated by an Indian bloke, it was on a filesharing site in Holland.
I sent a DMCA take down to the only ISP in the chain I could actually get a proper address for, LeaseWeb BV. They responded there is no DMCA in Holland, but they have a voluntary system of their own.
I contacted a lawyer in Den Haag and found I could sue LeaseWeb directly, regardless of their 'DMCA like' takedown procedure, since the sender is liable for the copyright infringement. They had been notified, regardless of their voluntary system, they hadn't taken it down, they have no DMCA like protection from lawsuits.
Here's the thing, all I really wanted from them was the concrete name and address of the uploader or the next company in the chain. I was happy to pursue the guy, which I believed was in India. I would happily have pursued the actual person doing the actual infringement for the actual damage plus the actual cost.
But all this copyright crap the MPAA and RIAA have pulled has so politicized the simple matter of a copyright infringement that everyone is so polarized you can't actually get anything done!
I suspected that a DMCA like process would have been enough to let Leaseweb hide their clients address details, I suspect that pursuing the guy across to his home country would result in all manner of whiney 'it's censorship' screams, but all I wanted to do was a straight copyright civil claim against someone who had ripped the protection off my app and uploaded to a file sharing site.
BREIN are no doubt being pushed by the MPAA and RIAA, and presumably because Holland doesn't have DMCA takedown protection, they know they can ultimately make the ISP liable. But I don't want ISPs liable, I just want the goddam address of the guy who pirated my app!
While TPB has been blocked by court order in the Netherlands, it is for individuals, afaik, still legal to download music and movies over there.
So, Americans, next time you get sued by RIAA or MPAA, you just show them your flight ticket to the Netherlands.
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
Much though they object, BREIN, MPAA, RIAA, et. al ARE NOT POLICE and have NO AUTHORITY.
Thank GOD no one ever gave you belligerent, greedy jack-boots a badge!
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Yeah, that second scene is sure to not only kill ticket sales for that movie, it's going to cause people seeing the movie airing after the trailer you mention to run out of the theatre screaming.
Here's the Slashdot-focus-group version:
A world where the internet miracle is not smothered...
[cut to LAN party where life-size action figures of Natalie Portman / Kelly LeBrock / $HOTGIRL are being produced using 3-D printers]
Set your phasers on "funky"!
...there seems to be some common sense left in the Netherlands; "common sense" taking, in these sad days of ours, the place "bravery" once had. ( Don't peck on me for pecking on the Dutch; I am one myself. Nobody is perfect. )
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
Someone needs to make a descriptively labeled hentai of this. Maybe then people would understand what they are doing.
Then again, maybe they like it, which is even scarier.
I for one don't know whom to cheer for.
What does it have to do with the price of butter?
Hey, when Brando says to get the buttah, you don't quibble over the price of the stick.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
"You do know what an ISP is, right?"
It's their servers, maybe they lease it out as you claim, I don't know their internal contracts, I only know I can trace it as far as them and no further. They could pass me onto the next person in the chain, however, they chose to make the stand. So to recap, their servers, are serving a pirated version of my app, and they won't even let me have the contact details of the company they claim leases the server from them. If I trace the owner of the server, it is Leaseweb.
I can see that the fileserver hosted by Leaseweb serves lots of files, almost all pirated. So it's not like Leaseweb can be somehow unaware of it. I pointed it out to them, and I bet a lot of other people did too.
They may be an ISP (or not), but there is no law protecting ISPs in Holland, and if they *did* have DMCA, they could not use that either because to have DMCA protection, the end infringer would have to have a real address.
So even under DMCA, they should have given me the address of the company they claim leases that server.
To the previous commenter, if I made it a service orientated app it would need to connect to a server, and that's not good for people without data plans or unreliable 3G. Also $1 isn't much, its far far below the cost of development. It's not a pricing issue.
There's really no excuse here.
Back to my point, we have such a copyright system of extremes, that a simple copyright infringement case which should be a simple case of me tracing it back to the original infringer and suing them in civil court becomes a battlefield. One side claiming it's theft and seeking hundreds of thousands in damages for every petty offense, the other side screaming 'censorship' and police state.
Because obviously none of the Wikileaks documents offered clear evidence of US involvement in the Spanish download laws? Shill.
What a depressingly stupid machine.
One important detail that most sources fail to mention that this case was not about whether or not thepiratebay.org is legal or not. A previous court-case already established that thepiratebay.org is not legal in The Netherlands. Brein took this verdict to the providers and ordered them to block thepiratebay.org. The ISPs refused. That was the start of this court-case. This case is about the question if ISPs should respond to Breins requests to block a site or if Brein should get a seperate court-order. The outcome is that Brein does not need a seperate order. In my opinion there is no ground left for the other providers to refuse such requests.
Obiously this is a disaster for Internet in the Netherlands. These filters are not going to help one bit. Therefore they will never be cost-effective. The only way to improve there efficiency is to block more. I fear that now that there is a filtering-infrastructure it will soon be use to block other content as well. I can already hear the laments of sensationlist politicians on why we block music and not CP.
Considering your original mistake, call me crazy, but I'm not favorably disposed towards believing your international conspiracy theory
The Recording Industry and Hollywood are multinationals. What is the RIAA? EMI, Universal Music, Warner Music, Sony Music.
All Recording Industry Associations around the world are just those 4 companies over and over again.
I heard they do this to lower the royalties they have to give to the actors.
dont cheer for hollywood. for the actors they can slight would not be the ones you would like to.
Read radical news here
The two ISP's that did block the Pirate Bay did so on the strength of a court order addressed to them specifically. The second two ISPs were not mentioned on that order. Therefore said court order is simply not enforceable on them .
Were they to block the Pirate Bay without a court order, they would (1) invite a whole series of similar requests and (2) block their users' access to a site without any legal justification for doing so, thereby exposing themselves to legally in case *anyone* claims being wrongfully blocked from some demonstrably legal torrent. That would land them in even more trouble.
So they told the claimant to go away and get a warrant with their names on it.
In short: don't kid yourself that these ISPs are somehow standing on the barricades against "Big Content". They are not.They acted, in true corporate fashion, purely for selfish legal reasons.
Besides pedophilia (websites, photos, etc) or anything in relation to pedophile activity on the Internet, ISP's should not be forced to comply to the authority or any other organisation
John lennon should resurrect and rewrite that song of his to include the parents' lines.
You mean tanks? Bwahahaha!