How Companies Learn Your Secrets

Hugh Pickens writes "For decades, Target has collected vast amounts of data on every person who regularly walks into one of its stores. Now the NY Times Magazine reports on how companies like Target identify those unique moments in consumers' lives when their shopping habits become particularly flexible and the right advertisement or coupon can cause them to begin spending in new ways. Among life events, none are more important than the arrival of a baby, and new parents are a retailer's holy grail. In 2002, marketers at Target asked statisticians to answer an odd question: 'If we wanted to figure out if a customer is pregnant, even if she didn't want us to know, can you do that?' Specifically, the marketers said they wanted to send specially designed ads to women in their second trimester, which is when most expectant mothers begin buying all sorts of new things, like prenatal vitamins and maternity clothing. 'We knew that if we could identify them in their second trimester, there's a good chance we could capture them for years,' says statistician Andrew Pole. 'As soon as we get them buying diapers from us, they're going to start buying everything else too.' As Pole's computers crawled through the data, he was able to identify about 25 products that, when analyzed together, allowed him to assign each shopper a 'pregnancy prediction' score and he soon had a list of tens of thousands of women who were most likely pregnant. About a year after Pole created his pregnancy-prediction model, a man walked into a Target outside Minneapolis and demanded to see the manager. He was clutching coupons that had been sent to his daughter, and he was angry. 'My daughter got this in the mail!' he said. 'She's still in high school, and you're sending her coupons for baby clothes and cribs? Are you trying to encourage her to get pregnant?' The manager apologized and then called a few days later to apologize again but the father was somewhat abashed. 'It turns out there's been some activities in my house I haven't been completely aware of. She's due in August. I owe you an apology.'"

Comments

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[SJHillman]

You underestimate the power of directed advertising. To give you a hint, that's what makes Facebook worth and estimated $100 billion.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[ColdWetDog]

Nah, this is real. And it will work out just as well as the last time.

OK guys, raise your hands - how many have gotten 'feminine products' adverts?

Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Why do they keep sending me these Trojan cupons?

[Anonymous Coward]

According to our systems your girlfriend is very likely to become pregnant soon....

But we're waiting till we get married.

That's an eye-opener

[idontgno]

But not terribly surprising.

Given the opportunity, marketers will be more observant of the goings-on in a household than, say, the father of the house.

Hell, I am the father of the house, and most stuff that happens catches me by surprise. So I can sympathize with the father mentioned at the end of TFS.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[MightyMartian]

I'm the father of the house, and I came to the conclusion that I don't want to know what's going on in the house. Both kids are in their late teens now, and mutual ignorance seems to be the best way to get along.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[dbc]

Hell, I am the father of the house, and most stuff that happens catches me by surprise. So I can sympathize with the father mentioned at the end of TFS.

This man speaks truth.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[Ihmhi]

Thanks. All we need right now are more parents ignorant of what their children are doing to make this a better society.

Hey, you know when your kids fuck up? That's an opportunity to ask why and maybe teach them how to do things better. A mistake (even a huge mistake) on their part isn't necessarily a reflection on your parenting. How you respond to their mistake is a reflection on your parenting. Plugging your fingers in your ears and loudly humming are the sort of things that helps cultivate a culture of ignorance and irresponsibility.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[Beardo the Bearded]

Indeed. I've got an eight-year-old daughter. When she was newborn, the older guys in band were saying, "you think you're having sleepless nights now? Wait until she's 16 and dating."

Re:That's an eye-opener

[MightyMartian]

I think once your kids hit their late teens, they're close enough to being adults (if not outright adults) that the time when you're close personal involvement could have changed anything is long past. You're basically stuck with "I told you so..."

Re:That's an eye-opener

[Anonymous Coward]

The Slashdot Parenting Criticism Brigade is here!

Re:That's an eye-opener

[Anonymous Coward]

You clearly do not have children of that age (late teen).

That is the time that you have to let them learn independence and consequence. Telling them is not going to do a lick of good, they have to experience those things first hand.

Go back to academia with your theory, it doesn't apply in the real.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[Anonymous Coward]

Both kids are in their late teens now, and mutual ignorance seems to be the best way to get along.

Just don't touch the kids' computer or anything else with spooge stains!

Re:That's an eye-opener

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm detecting some sarcasm, but my detector has been acting up lately, so my apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth.

If you're suggesting that his giving his young adult children some privacy is a bad thing, I would ask you for a more rational alternative. The best thing I can come up with is give them their space and to simply make it clear that you're always available and open to discussion. Being oppressive and snooping in their private lives only forces them to become rebellious.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet most of their advice is useless. Instead of useful prevention and management, you get prohibition as the go-to solution.

Which hardly works at all.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[MightyMartian]

Are you kidding? I feel like I need to wear a hazmat suit when I go into their rooms.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[HeckRuler]

Well, yeah, personality development and all that jazz is pretty much settled (although there's still a lot of maturing to do). And lhmhi came off a little heavy handed. And I certainly don't have much room to speak as a non-breeder so far.

...But, uh, as a fellow member of society, do you think you could at least help your offspring out now and then? You know, in general? I'm all for phased independence, but that stretches all the way to the 40's where dependency starts to swing the other way. You really shouldn't just ignore them when they hit 16.

Teen pregnancy is the topic, and it's implied that you're mutually agreeing to be ignorant of who is banging who, but really, the topic of sex doesn't have to be taboo. If anything that just makes it more of a reason to go out and be a rebel.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[CanHasDIY]

Just don't touch the kids' computer

I thought that's what .45 JHP was for...

Re:That's an eye-opener

[element-o.p.]

If you wait until your kids are teens to start down this path, you already screwed up and sticking your fingers in your ears is going to be just about your only option. You start building a relationship with your kids and a culture of honor and respect the moment your child is born, and you keep at it until they move out of the house (actually, it doesn't even stop then). Your kids need to know that they can trust you to handle their mistakes and help clean up their messes long before they even think about having sex. Otherwise, yeah, you'll be the last one to know, and they won't be open to anything you have to say on the subject.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[geekoid]

It's not, but stupid people have a hard time thinking on the fly so they don't know how to handle the many out of nowhere events that kids seem to surprise on their parent.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[webnut77]

I think once your kids hit their late teens, they're close enough to being adults (if not outright adults) that the time when you're close personal involvement could have changed anything is long past.

That depends. Is it just now that you're trying to get involved OR have you always been involved and just continuing you're good parenting?

Re:That's an eye-opener

[Anonymous Coward]

I assume you don't have older teens? You may have been there and involved 100% up to that point and now you have the result. At that age, you are "there for them", not to direct them.

People that are still guiding kids at that age and involved at a high level have created young adults that have no idea what it is like to fail and no idea how to learn from their own mistakes. They need to learn what it is like in the real world away from the shell their parents had them under for so long where sometimes their half-assed "best try" really is not good enough like you've been telling them it is for all of these years. Remember the "sticks and stones" statement? Kids used to learn that at a young age and truly believe it. Now they get depressed when things are not going their way because they are not used to failing and no longer being praised for everything they do and everyone else is a just bully.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[SomePgmr]

Indeed. I'm pretty sure this poorly-informed rabbit hole of condemnation and retort is already a lost cause.

Nobody here knows this guy. They have no useful context. They don't know his kids, they don't know what his custody situation is and for all they know he's been a model parent with straight-A students heading off to college, who have earned a bit independence anyway.

Instead, let's just assume he's a terrible parent with felons for children, and that he meant he'll take no further interest whatsoever in their lives. That'll make for a productive conversation. :p

Re:That's an eye-opener

[nolife]

With a son, you only have to worry about one dick. With a daughter, you have to worry about all the dicks.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[Cant use a slash wtf]

Although, by the time they are in their late teens, you should be letting them handle their own mistakes and only coming to you if they can't hand something themselves.
Otherwise you end up with kids who can't actually fix their own problems and keep coming back to Mum and Dad to hold their hand through life even in their 20's and 30's.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[Anonymous Coward]

Tyrant parents are probably a larger cause of problems...

Re:That's an eye-opener

[element-o.p.]

I said "Help them," -- not "Clean it up for them."

Re:That's an eye-opener

[bruce_the_loon]

It's a useful starting point. Even if he isn't a terrible parent with felonious kids, there's probably many on Slashdot that are and can benefit from the debate.

And if he isn't, teenagers shouldn't be completely independent until well after 21. Give the kid a car, gas and no rules and he'll wrap it around a pole before too long.

Start phasing the dependency out by all means, but keep a weather eye on them and intervene if they starting doing something stupid like laying rubber out the drive or shooting guns in the air or signing up for Facebook.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[SuricouRaven]

Birth control is 99-point-a-few-more-nines effective, *if* it is used correctly. The problem is that even those people who use it tend to do so incorrectly or inconsistantly. It isn't as simple as just sticking a condom on - firstly because you need to know a few useful things (Check the expiration date, careful not to slice it with your nail extensions, and don't put it on back-to-front), and secondly because you should always be doubling up. Condom in addition to the Pill, usually. Sure, one may fail... but two highly unlikely failures occuring at once? Not going to happen. Even better, an IUD: Even more reliable than the Pill, you can't forget to take it, and none of the potential side-effects. If you find condoms kill the mood too much (They do tend to ruin the spontinuity of the moment), send the male off for a vasectomy: 100% effective (Providing he isn't stupid enough to run home and mate before the existing sperm have all died off), perfectly safe, done under a local anasthetic. The only downside is the irrevesibility, so if you do plan to have kids in the future... CONDOM+IUD!

There. Condom + (IUD or Pill) = safe, childless, freest-love-since-the-hippies sex. Is is that hard for people to remember.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[Anonymous Coward]

That story at the end is pure marketing bullship. If you're the sort of person who *would go to a shop? to complain about adverts tehn you are also *NOT* the sort of father who would go back and apologize for being wrong. It steeenks of Fish.

Re:That's an eye-opener

[DynamoJoe]

He didn't go back to apologize. He received a followup call from the store and apologized at that time.

As far as what people will complain about.. some people will complain about anything.

Data Mining at it's finest

[phamNewan]

Lying with statistics is an art, but it appears that once in a while they can be useful. This really is an impressive use of statistics.

Re:Data Mining at it's finest

[Frosty Piss]

Lying with statistics is an art, but it appears that once in a while they can be useful.

How is this "lying"? Seems to mee they are spot on.

Re:Data Mining at it's finest

[Anonymous Coward]

I think s/he meant that usually statistics are inappropriately used knowingly to make a point/ get away with a lie (e.g. politicians).

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

It turns out there's been some activities in my house I haven't been completely aware of.

So how much did he know? Did he think they were using protection?

Creepy, but it used to be more common

[The Raven]

Back when retailers had a more personal connection to their clients, it was also not uncommon for a shopkeeper to notice that a customer was pregnant and stock something specifically for her. Personalization has always existed; this is a more of a comeback than something completely new.

The flipside is that a shopkeeper also had a personal connection to the mother. Target has no such connection to Customer#9810957065409. This takes the personalization away from 'cozy' toward 'creepy'. It's like the uncanny valley of interactions.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[i kan reed]

But our marketing blast algorithm is programmed to have feelings and care deeply about you. And to maximize the emotional manipulation on you. It's like having an omniscient psycho ex. What's not to like?

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[MightyMartian]

It's more like retail stalking.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[dbc]

Funny you should mention that. I grew up in a small town. When my wife and I were married, one of the local retailers was on my wife's gift registry for her china pattern. This retailer knew I had a (relatively, small-town-scale) wealthy aunt who frequented the shop. So the retailer loaded up on all the wacko, high mark-up accessory pieces for my wife's china pattern and every time my aunt came into the store she would get the sales pitch for a soup tureen or something. This went on for years.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[Anonymous Coward]

>> notice that a customer was pregnant

I had to send all those diapers back; it turned out she was just fat.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[subanark]

Target doesn't need to worry about stocking things for particular individuals. The reason they do this is to offer good discounts to select individuals that are at a crucial point in their life where they "settle down" and adopt store loyalty. These discounts could actually be a loss for the store. Once the customer becomes loyal, there is no reason to offer further discounts.

The store that has the personal relationship will continue to stock diapers until there are no longer customers who have young children.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[EdIII]

But our marketing blast algorithm is programmed to have feelings and care deeply about you

Now that was creepy. I feel like you are going to offer me some cake now.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[Anonymous Coward]

"Target has no such connection to Customer#9810957065409." Hey that's my customer number you insensitive clod!

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[travisb828]

Google already has one in beta. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx-cX7W03RI

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[DeadDecoy]

Would your algorithm happen to run on GladOS?

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

So the retailer loaded up on all the wacko, high mark-up accessory pieces for my wife's china pattern and every time my aunt came into the store she would get the sales pitch for a soup tureen or something. This went on for years.

I think that's a great illustration of the problem here - Target and all the other companies that are using "targeted advertising" are going beyond simply providing a service to actively trying to manipulate people. Advertising to inform is good, advertising to convince people spend money on products they wouldn't otherwise purchase is bad.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[Born2bwire]

That isn't what they want to do here. What they want to do is become the prime retailer for a set of products that people start buying at certain stages in their lives. Like how Gillette will send out free razors to people when the turn 18 to try and make them Gillette consumers for their life's supply of shaving products. Target here is trying to predict people who are pregnant and have reached the stage where they are ready to buy the associated baby products and providing incentives for these people to buy the products at Target. Then, the customers will be predisposed to continue buying these products at Target.

They aren't trying to convince them to buy products they don't need, they are trying to convince them to buy a new range of products that they will need or want to buy from a specific retailer.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[HeckRuler]

Ah, but the entire point of marketing is NOT to save you a buck. It's to get you to burn your buck at the exotic, exclusive, and luxurious, shopping experience that is... wherever the hell they're hocking that day.

They're paying a team of people to convince you to come into their store rather then no frill's discount bob's shit-bag emporium.

Remember that marketeers and salesmen don't actually contribute to society. Theirs is a zero-sum game where every dollar they make is a dollar taken away from competition. Or it's convincing you to buy more then you really need to.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[idontgno]

And then the celebratory candescence, and the rocket launchers, and the cute and cuddly gun turrets, and the neurotoxin gas...

This. This is why I oppose targeted advertising. It will end in tears, and being dragged back into the lab by robotic Party Associates.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[The Good Reverend]

Not totally true. Target wants me to buy my everyday products there, even if it doesn't mean upselling me and getting me out the door with a TV or housewares. Marketing that gets me in the door makes a store happy, even if it's not specifically to get me to buy things I don't need.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[SydShamino]

And this sort of manipulation works. When I want to buy general household supplies or other random things (but not specifically food), I think Target. When I want to buy clothes, I think JC Penny. When I want to buy food, I think (regional food chain).

On the other hand, I don't have a drug store imprinted on me, probably because all the brands changed when Walgreens and CVS swept across the country. When I want medicine, I think "whichever of the generic-looking boxes is on my way home; oh wait there's a (regional food chain or Target) if I go this way. I'll stop at whichever is convenient".

And I don't have a razor company imprint, despite getting a free Mach 5 thing when I was 20. I want to buy more blades, but then I go in the store and see the price and decide I don't want to be raped by those blades before I can use them. So I buy something else. In this case their imprinting could have worked but didn't because they set their prices too high.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[sexconker]

Not totally true. Target wants me to buy my everyday products there, even if it doesn't mean upselling me and getting me out the door with a TV or housewares. Marketing that gets me in the door makes a store happy, even if it's not specifically to get me to buy things I don't need.

Bullshit.
The entire "get them in the door" thing exists only because they expect you to buy other shit in addition to the shit that got you in the door.
That way, they don't have to compete on that other shit. As long as the profit margin * odds of you buying it is high enough for them to cover any losses on deals that got you in the door, they win.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[Anonymous Coward]

I would argue that marketing is always about getting you to buy. It's never there *just* to be informative. It's there to convince you to buy.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[firewrought]

I think that's a great illustration of the problem here - Target and all the other companies that are using "targeted advertising" are going beyond simply providing a service to actively trying to manipulate people. Advertising to inform is good, advertising to convince people spend money on products they wouldn't otherwise purchase is bad.

Most advertising is manipulative. If "informative" is how you draw the line between good and bad, you'll find very, very little on the good side.

Do this... next time you're watching a TV commercial, open your eyes and then--to paraphrase Terry Pratchet--open your eyes again and look at the subtle "identity logic" of each commercial. Such-and-such deodorant will make you irresistible to girls (but only the hot ones!). Such-and-such truck* shows that you're a weathered, gritty man who's self-reliant and tough to the core. Such-and-such consulting firm shows that you're a savvy business veteran who understands the complexities of a global interwoven economy. Such-and-such cleaning product shows that you're a smart, has-it-together woman who can deftly orchestrate the family schedule and still have time for herself**. Such-and-such pill lets you live your sunset years playing with your grand-kids and walking beaches with your well-preserved spouse.

Look for it... those commercials that present a picture of who you want to be and tie it to a product. You'll be amazed.

---

* Or Chrysler, as the case may be.

** And staying at home to play nurse/janitor/chef 24/7 was so much smarter and more fulfilling than having some high-paying corporate job like your sellout friends did.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[benhattman]

Bzzzt wrong. Marketing is for attracting customers. A store like Target is thrilled for you to come buy diapers, milk, and pencils from them instead of Walmart. Of course they'd love to upsell you if you are already a customer, but most of the time they are just happy to have you walk through their doors.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[benhattman]

That's a hopelessly simplistic summary. First, all advertising is an attempt to manipulate people. Second, manipulation alone isn't enough to tell you if advertisement is "good" or "bad", to do that you must consider what manipulation is occurring. Arguably, if the fruit and vegetable growers association went to great lengths to manipulate people into eating more vegetables and less meat, that would be good for the individuals (better health) society (lower medical costs) the environment (less land use) global politics (lower oil/phosphate demand) and the economy (cheaper meals would leave people with more money to spend on innovative products instead of food). Such a group could literally implant a chip in your head to make you desire their product, and you'd still have to reach for an explanation of why that would be a bad thing (and I say that as a meat-eater). Conversely, if a jean manufacturer produced ads stating that their jeans aren't actually better than the competitions, but they are cooler and more $$$, that would fit into your informative only category but it hardly sounds like those ads make our lives better.

Backing off of the strawmen arguments, often times people really truly want a product, but they simply don't know it yet. From an economists perspective, any time an ad causes someone to allocate their money towards products that bring them more utility, than whatever they would have spent their money on instead, that ad is a good one. It doesn't matter if it's manipulative or violates your privacy.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[rtb61]

Heck, if an omniscient psycho ex offered me fraudulently presented as discounted (secretly price up 50% with a presented discount of 25%, targeted at a more psychologically vulnerable moment), in-stock products I "might have bought" (actually psychologically triggered into over spending, on things you might need just in case), I might just 'get tricked into' keeping them around (as they continued to manipulate your thinking and decisions for their advantage not yours).

Besides everyone invades your privacy, manipulates your choices, uncaring purposefully tries to drive you into overspending, has absolutely no real regard for you debts or your future and basically when your broke wants you to never return.

Most people call those destructive relationship, victims who seem to get caught up in them again and again, specifically targeted by psychopaths because they are vulnerable. Personally, Target and all other stores MYFB, be polite, be respectful and, how does it go again, "only speak when spoken to", only send me adds when I seek them.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[Anonymous Coward]

> Advertising to inform is good, advertising to convince people spend money on products they wouldn't otherwise purchase is bad.

I disagree. People prone to manipulation mean subsidized lower prices on other items for me.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, that guy was a pro!

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[Chris Mattern]

Not totally true. Target wants me to buy my everyday products there, even if it doesn't mean upselling me and getting me out the door with a TV or housewares. Marketing that gets me in the door makes a store happy, even if it's not specifically to get me to buy things I don't need.

Wrong! Target tries to get you in the store as often as possible specifically so that they can upsell you. If they don't that day, they aren't going to show their disappointment, because that's not productive. But that's why they push so hard to get you in the store. And it works often enough to be very worth their while.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[Anonymous Coward]

That statement is misinformed... I'm not surprised it got 5 points.

This marketing is intended to sell a pregnant woman things she "has" to buy. It's simply their attempt to become the ladies choice of stores.

The interesting question is... If they have enough data to figure out you're pregnant, isn't there already a good chance that you shop frequently at the store already and it is your "store of choice".

It'd be interesting to see what the actual ROI is on this.

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[anotherzeb]

Sounds like Genuine People Personalities straight from the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation - "sounds ghastly" is about right

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems you have never worked in sales. Marketing is only half of the story. The business sets in when you actually sell something. No shop owner is happy just for people walking through their doors.
Their goal is to sell stuff to you at the highest possible price and the lowest acceptable quality. The purpose of marketing is to suggest that they either have the lowest price or the best quality - sometimes it's true, sometimes not (well, some idiots will even believe that lowest price and best quality are possible at the same time).

Re:Creepy, but it used to be more common

[HeckRuler]

I'm sorry, I don't really know what "upselling" is, but if you're buying diapers, milk, pencils, etc from Target instead of Walmat, then the market weasels have already made a buck on you.

Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[Oswald McWeany]

How to tell they're in the 2nd trimester?

Track who buys what by Credit Card #. If 3 months after buying a lot of vaseline and thigh highs their buying trends switch towards buying stretch pants and "hot-dogs and ice cream" together... ... and their husband starts buying the vaseline instead... and ear plugs.

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[Em Adespoton]

Most likely it's people who buy less alcohol and cigarettes, start buying anti-nausea drugs, and buy pickles and ice cream together late at night... but nothing else.

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[Anonymous Coward]

They gave away some hints when they mentioned the unscented lotions... someone switching from scented to unscented is likely a huge factor

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[tompaulco]

Track who buys what by Credit Card #.
That is a pretty shady area. There are some pretty strict laws about when and how credit card data is to be stored. I don't think brick and mortars are allowed to store CC#s at all. Then there is the matter of tying that information back to an address. Unless you are doing this online, or you willing gave them your address, then there should be no legal way for them to tie a credit card number to an address. Of course, maybe in this case they were using a Target credit card in which case they probably do have the address.

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure there is a way to mangle the data, but still keep it "unique" so that it skirts the laws about CC data (for instance combine the last three of the billing zip with the last 8 of the cc number and you can't use that info to make a charge on the account, but is unique enough to make it easy to tell which customer it is (in a non-real world specific way, meaning tied to a user ID number only).

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[Anonymous Coward]

They could one-way hash the card numbers. Granted, it'd be trivial to reverse because the search space is limited (sixteen digits; always start with 3, 4, 5, or 6), but it wouldn't technically be storing credit card numbers.

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[brainzach]

Receipts have your name and last 4 digits of your CC# on it. It is enough to create an ID for someone. They can offer a rewards card or ask for your phone number or zip code. With that info you can get the address from the phone book.

With third party services, they can get much more data.

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[Anonymous Coward]

There are various widespread superstitions regarding the safety of vaginal sex during pregnancy.

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[JonySuede]

No need to store the CC number, apply SHA-2 and you have a UUID that is not the credit card. The name is on track 1 field 5, read it, use it combine to the store location to narrow down on a set of candidates, store the result of your search, not what you read on the card. After that have the system prompt the clerk for an address confirmation when your UUID buys something.

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[DamnStupidElf]

And if you're any sort of proper gentleman you'll continue to spread those superstitions.

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[Burning1]

Hash the credit card number, associate the hash with the customer ID. Every time a card is swiped, see who's hash it matches. Card number isn't stored. Hash is useless if stolen.

Combined with a Loyalty card, it's a great way to see who's married to who, since the card minimally gives you the names of the people who are swiping. Names provide geneder information. Purchase history provides information on age, family status, etc.

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[Anonymous Coward]

Companies rarely do it by the actual credit card number, as that is problematic from a PCI compliance perspective. However... substitute a new number in its place (eg tokenization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokenization_%28data_security%29) and they're back in business. And by the way, if you sign up for any retailer's branded card (Target, Amazon, Gap, SkyMiles, MarriottRewards, whoever), you traded your address / shopping data for the discount. In *that* case, they know more about your trips to the store than you do, especially if you use that card at other retailers.

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[daemonenwind]

Hash the credit card number.

Yes, this is how it commonly starts. Of course, you can keep the rest of the information; namely, your name and zip code. They also store everything you bought, what time, and where.

You can take the name/zip code information and compare that to the bulk download of information you got from the credit rating agency of your choice. That should tell you most of the financial information you want, including most of your former/current addresses and a decent guess at the equity on your home and your open credit card lines and what brand of car you drive (car loan). You can then run that by the info from a company like Axicom if you really want to build a profile, but I would guess that a place like Target would be happy with the trades (credit rating company info).

Once you've got that down, you can store/track every single thing purchased and build your own profile. Kind of the way they highlight in TFA. You can also cross that with census data to try to adjust the mix of product in the store - which is why you see things like grape soda in highly urban McDonalds, but not other places.

Really, if you want privacy, you should buy with cash. I know credit cards are convenient and safer than cash (as a general rule), but until we all feel better about walking around with a stack of 100s when we want to buy a TV/computer/etc, there you are.

Re:Hot dogs... and Ice cream

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would they have to store CC# to track you by CC#? Couldn't they just store a particular hash of your CC#?

Anyway, it's best to assume all merchants that take credit cards store your number indefinitely.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Marillion]

Except that it actually happened. I work in a biomedical informatics group and the same techniques we use to find features that can detect early infection in cells can be applied to marketing data. If you have enough training data, for example, start with 2000 known customers who started buying diapers and formula on a certain date. Now what did they start buying seven months before that? Now find the customers who match that profile. Data are data.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Frosty Piss]

The anecdote might be fake, but the use of stats? More than you can imagine. The fact is, human behavior is predictable.

Perhaps the police could use this

[Anonymous Coward]

To look for criminals, or people who have a high probability of committing criminal acts.

Re:Perhaps the police could use this

[_Lint_]

They do. A decade ago, I saw a demo of some software developed for Brazil, which predicted likely locations for illegal poaching, logging, and mining based on past illegal activity, geographic features, and anything that looked like a road or hidden runway (even if the road or runway wasn't anywhere near the site).

Re:Perhaps the police could use this

[Mashiki]

To look for criminals, or people who have a high probability of committing criminal acts.

Police in Canada have been doing this for over 30 years, works fairly well.

sounds like..

[P-niiice]

Sounds like a bad joke you get forwarded 20 times in your email.

Baby stuff

[DanTheStone]

For some reason my girlfriend started getting advertisements and coupons for baby stuff for a while after her sister (in another state) had a baby. Perhaps we tripped some uninformed algorithm with gift purchases, but we gave the free formula to her sister and those have all stopped eventually. The biggest pain was the Highlights subscription we never signed up for, which eventually went to collections (for $25!) after we ignored it.

Re:Baby stuff

[Vanderhoth]

I have a pretty small anecdotal sample group, four sets of sisters, but my experience is sisters of similar age tend to get , or try to get, pregnant around the same time. From what I've observed it's like it's a competition to see who can pop out the first grandchild.

I think it boils down to younger siblings hate seeing the older ones get everything first. Maybe marketing has picked up on a similar trend.

Re:Baby stuff

[causality]

I have a pretty small anecdotal sample group, four sets of sisters, but my experience is sisters of similar age tend to get , or try to get, pregnant around the same time. From what I've observed it's like it's a competition to see who can pop out the first grandchild. I think it boils down to younger siblings hate seeing the older ones get everything first. Maybe marketing has picked up on a similar trend.

What a wonderful, mature, high-minded reason to bring a child into the world...

Re:Baby stuff

[Mashiki]

What a wonderful, mature, high-minded reason to bring a child into the world...

I'm guessing you didn't grow up in a family, or in a family where family is actually considered important. Especially one where there's a lot of little brothers or sisters in it.

Re:Baby stuff

[element-o.p.]

What a wonderful, mature, high-minded reason to bring a child into the world...

Agreed, but...did you honestly expect people to behave otherwise?

Re:Baby stuff

[causality]

What a wonderful, mature, high-minded reason to bring a child into the world...

I'm guessing you didn't grow up in a family, or in a family where family is actually considered important. Especially one where there's a lot of little brothers or sisters in it.

Ah, so you could not refute what I said, yet you still didn't like the way it sounded, so now here come the thinly-veiled personal attacks concerning how inferior my life or my family must be. How transparent of you.

My answer to you is very simple. I grew up in and remain in a family where family is considered very important. It's so important, in fact, that we don't make petty "me too!" games and contests of "I got first place!" out of important life events, particularly those as life-changing as becoming a parent.

The family? Very important. Who did what first as if it's a competition? So unimportant that it isn't even on the radar.

No here's the part you don't want to face: if two women in your family actually care about who gets pregnant first, to the point that they will try to become pregnant when one or more of them otherwise wouldn't have done so, the importance of family is low on their list. High up on their list is being petty, catty, and soaking up the attention and adoration from everyone else. If pointing that out offends you, or if you're struck by the realization that there are a lot of petty immature people in the world, then maybe you should deal with that on your own terms instead of trying to make a scapegoat of me.

Re:Baby stuff

[geekoid]

^^^This.

I applaud you, fellow poster. Not only should this post be at 5 informative, you should get a free 5 on your next two posts.

Re:Baby stuff

[Vanderhoth]

I agree with you. In all cases the situation hasn't gone well.

Re:Baby stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

human reproduction is generally far from high-minded reason

Re:Baby stuff

[base3]

Excellent dissection of the smug "family importance" bullshit in the parent post. Well done!

Re:Baby stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry if I offend you, but nobody cares why you make children. The only thing that counts is whether you make them or not. His sisters knew this instinctively.

Re:Baby stuff

[causality]

What a wonderful, mature, high-minded reason to bring a child into the world...

Agreed, but...did you honestly expect people to behave otherwise?

I know for a fact that they can, because I have seen it with my own eyes. It requires a real commitment and ability to cherish what is honorable and true. That's all.

If you want to be the real "one percent" (of one percent), value those things above all else. The only things it will cost you weren't good for you to have anyway.

Re:Baby stuff

[causality]

I agree with you. In all cases the situation hasn't gone well.

That you say that is truly beautiful and delightful to me. You could have taken the low road and made some personal attack against me, but someone else already tried that and you see how (un)successful that was. It takes some real guts to admit a thing like that and face the tragedy it represents without embracing a lie or making an excuse to cover it up. For people who are egotistical, the fact it involves one's family makes it even more urgent to portray this tragedy as some kind of good thing and anyone who points out its failure as some kind of naysaying demon, just as "Mashiki" tried and failed to do because I see right through it.

The tragedy, specifically, is that the people involved have no real inner purpose guiding and motivating what they do. They do not know what it is to do a good and beautiful thing and have the reward be the chance to participate in it. They need exterior motive in the form of the approval and phony (conditional) "love" and admiration of others, to be seen as "good" in the eyes of others. As I have heard a great teacher say, they are "out-dividuals" and not individuals. They seek fulfillment but are merely fools who are going to get filled. My own term for it is the real STD: the socially transmitted disease.

It's so common that your ability to recognize and question it becomes a formidable test of who you are and what kind of character you have. The awareness this requires is not something you can get from the environment composed of other people and what they tell you. It's more like in the environment around you, to the degree that you are truly committed to what is noble and honorable is the degree to which you understand who your real friends are. The rest are using you to get their own phony sense of worth that comes from approval.

The truly damnable thing is that this is an unconscious or subconscious process. Anyone who had enough awareness to bring these processes into the realm of conscious awareness could never bear the shame and guilt of participating in such a system. In that sense, they are living according to the only way they know and cannot help themselves because no one ever really loved them enough to tell them the truth no matter what.

Re:Baby stuff

[causality]

human reproduction is generally far from high-minded reason

Indeed. That's a major component of why we have the kind of world we have today. I never disagreed that this is the case. I only argue that it is the low road.

It is a choice, you know. That means it can be chosen differently, with a loving enlightenment.

Re:Baby stuff

[element-o.p.]

I was trying to be funny (guess I failed, lol), but in all honesty, yes, I've seen people behave otherwise myself. My dad, for one. Hopefully, my daughter will say that about me too, one of these days. Most of my friends also value commitment and that which is honorable and true, since those are the kind of people I prefer to associate with.

Re:Baby stuff

[causality]

I was trying to be funny (guess I failed, lol), but in all honesty, yes, I've seen people behave otherwise myself. My dad, for one. Hopefully, my daughter will say that about me too, one of these days. Most of my friends also value commitment and that which is honorable and true, since those are the kind of people I prefer to associate with.

Heh in retrospect I believe you were joking... but that mentality is so common, so prevalent, that most would have been quite serious.

It's not my place to determine your fate but I can see where your heart is. I strongly, extremely doubt that your daughter will have regrets about your character given the the things you seek and the traits you celebrate. So few people get to grow up with a noble father image, or have no father who is present at all. I believe you because you are believable, and it sounds like you've done well.

That's the only way we're going to reverse this horrifying Dark Age that we currently live under. It will be a while before the mainstream recognizes it as such; it will be quite a while actually. We have so many neat toys and technologies and "stuff". These things distract us from seeing how dark this age really is. I doubt there were many periods in history when personal responsibility, at least a lip service towards virtue, and a concern for one's fellow beings and how one's actions impact them were all simultaneously so hard to find.

You're doing your part and I am doing mine. At the end of the day I have no regrets about it. The one great thing about modern technology is that you never really know how many you can reach with a message of truth and love, for only a tiny minority speak up and respond.

Please

[Anonymous Coward]

don't link to paywalls.

Statisticans...

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought these guys where thinkers and provided nothing useful to our everyday life...

Seems a bit like a made up story to me

[Duhfus]

I am not sure if the story is really true or not, but it stopped being believable when it said "the manager called again after a few days to apologize". Really? He remembers the person who had come in a few days earlier complaining about (targeted, yes, but still) mass-mailed coupons? And he calls them to apologize again?

It would be nice to see managers like that at the stores I shop at.

Re:Seems a bit like a made up story to me

[mehrotra.akash]

I did lodge a complaint at a pizza hut once and the regional manager (or some position like that, he managed the branches in the city) called me up after about a week/10 days

Re:Seems a bit like a made up story to me

[Anonymous Coward]

A few years ago we ordered a pizza from a national chain and the pizza never came. We called back a couple hours later and the guy on the phone swore up and down we never ordered anything. My wife sent an email to the complaint email address of the company. She got an email back from a district manager ... who happened to have been a delivery guy at the location we ordered from at our old address a few years before ... and he remembered us, at least partly because we usually tipped well.

As it turned out, one of the people answering the phone was just pretending to take some orders and not actually putting them in the computer. I don't think he worked there long, as we weren't the only ones to complain.

Re:Seems a bit like a made up story to me

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it's you shopping at the wrong stores.

Re:Seems a bit like a made up story to me

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not sure if the story is really true or not. . .

It sounds a lot like an urban legend, so I tried to track down the source. Here. You'll have to decide for yourself if you trust Charles Duhigg.

Re:Seems a bit like a made up story to me

[TapeCutter]

I agree, there's way too much weirdness in the angry Dad parable for it to be anything more than a marketing ploy used to sell the main story. I do however enjoy the wonderful irony of Angry Dad giving the store his phone number while complaining about their marketing practices.

Re:Seems a bit like a made up story to me

[cusco]

Minneapolis is the headquarters for the Target chain, and target area for initial roll out of new programs/procedures. If this happened during the initial testing of the program it would be VERY important to get as much information about an incident like this as possible before expanding the program nationwide and seeing thousands of irate parents show up, sucking up thousands of hours of Customer Service desk time. In the Minneapolis area I'd be more surprised it the manager hadn't called. In Cleveland the opposite would be true, of course.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[johnvile]

that's why they have a name for people with your opinion and a name for peolpe with mine.

Personally...

[EliSowash]

I really hate being marketed to. I don't want Doriotos because they sponser a football bowl, I don't want a Merc because they own the Superdome...but it must work, otherwise there wouldn't be billions of dollars spent every year on such things.

Re:Personally...

[marnues]

No you don't. You hate seeing marketing material that wasn't meant for you. I feel the same way. Personally, I love the marketing material that's on the boxes of plastic toys I purchase.

Re:Personally...

[causality]

No you don't. You hate seeing marketing material that wasn't meant for you. I feel the same way. Personally, I love the marketing material that's on the boxes of plastic toys I purchase.

The fact that you would presume to know better than he what he does and doesn't hate means you certainly do believe in marketing. That presumption carries a burden of proof, and the fact that you feel differently does not constitute proof.

The hinge of marketing is that it relies on emotional manipulation. It's least effective on people who have emotions (since they have a pulse) but are not governed by them and do not make decisions according to them. That's why they use small children in commercials, especially for cars and other things that don't have much to do with child care -- they are exploiting the innocence and the cuteness of the child to tug at your heartstrings. Since people tend to have maternal and paternal instincts, and instinct is not a matter of reason, this one is particularly effective and requires a real self-awareness to be seen for what it is.

If it works, they bypass any kind of rationality and implant a subconscious identification, a transferrance of the warm fuzzies to the product being sold. They are not saying "here are the factual reasons why we believe our products are superior" for they may not have any. If it doesn't work, it's because the recipient can see how underhanded and infernal this kind of manipulation really is, how much contempt and disrespect for the potential customer it really shows, and becomes completely turned off to doing business with that company at all.

Which one happens depends on whether the person governs their emotions and passions or is governed by them, and that's simply a matter of having two things: a spine and some character. Marketers help to undermine these two things by constantly emphasizing and legitimizing their opposites. The only thing worse than a few marketers who may merely be selfish are the masses of enablers who think this is truly a noble and acceptable way to treat one's fellow men. Of course, they would have to feel that way, because that's easier for an unprincipled ego than admitting it has strings that someone else can pull.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Frosty Piss]

OK guys, raise your hands - how many have gotten 'feminine products' adverts?

Uhh... Dude... I don't know what kind of web sites YOU visit, but...

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[PlatyPaul]

Sure. The real question is: what is the operating point (detection vs. false alarm, or false positives versus false negatives, or ...)?

I imagine that the cost of mailing out pregnancy coupons, both paper costs and PR, is low enough to tolerate a lot of bad guesses.

Big Business and Big Government

[mfwitten]

Coincidentally, the FBI now lists as suspicious activity making purchases with cash.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[mosb1000]

Yes, but it's harder for them to know when you do it, so it cancels out.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this true?

It wouldn't suprise me, I recall LO restricting the legal use of cash. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111019/17424316421/louisiana-makes-it-illegal-to-use-cash-secondhand-sales.shtml
Consider also structured transaction rules.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it is true, it is SUSPICIOUS, there is increased chance you will NOT pay full amount for your TAX if you are paying by cash, it does not mean everybody, or even most people will avoid tax if they pay by cash, but it does considerably increase odds that you are ones of those that do, and need to be checked "just in case"

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[Colin Smith]

Got a mobile?

You can correlate one set of events with another set of apparently entirely independent ones. All you need is the compute power and access to the data sets.
 

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[mosb1000]

Only if you have the data, and with cash transactions, you don't.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[CanHasDIY]

From the FBI's "Communities Against Terrorism" flyers, under the "What Should I Do?" heading:

Be part of the solution. - Require valid ID from all new customers.
- Keep records of purchases.
- Talk to customers, ask questions, and listen to and observe their responses.
- Watch for people and actions that are out of place.
- Make note of suspicious statements, people, and/or vehicles.
- If something seems wrong, notify law enforcement authorities.

Yes, but it's harder for them to know when you do it, so it cancels out.

... until they convince (or force) all the shopkeeps to do their spying for them...

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[causality]

Because it is true, it is SUSPICIOUS, there is increased chance you will NOT pay full amount for your TAX if you are paying by cash, it does not mean everybody, or even most people will avoid tax if they pay by cash, but it does considerably increase odds that you are ones of those that do, and need to be checked "just in case"

That makes no sense. I got that cash from a paycheck. Before I even saw the paycheck, the taxes were taken out.

If you are talking about sales taxes, the form of payment is irrelevant. And I have never asked a retailer not to collect the sales tax on a purchase I made because I already know what the answer would be. You see, the retailer has to pay that tax whether or not they pass it on to you. They're not going to give me free money.

It's not about taxes at all. It's about how much more power the government can have when anyone and everyone is a suspect.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a leap too far. There is increased chance you will drive away from a crime if you own a car, but having a car is not suspicious.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[Mabhatter]

Right, because the automated express line at Walmart couldn't be taking your picture and reading the serial numbers of the bills you insert into the machine....

Unless you go there for the customer service???

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[Anonymous Coward]

- If something seems wrong, notify law enforcement authorities.

- Pray that law enforcement authorities aren't already looking the other way, ala 9/11.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure you do. The store has a record of what was sold, and when. And the cell phone company has a record of where you were, and when.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[mosb1000]

Some stores keep better records than others. And I don't bring my cellphone with me everywhere I go.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[darronb]

... and EVERYONE knows that every bit of data that is recorded anywhere is automatically in the hands of the gov'ment.

Really?

This site has a pretty good number of IT people on it (just a guess). Nobody's noticed lots of little black boxes plugged into our networks... or strange database connections... or unscheduled data dumps/transfers... no intrusion detection issues... etc?

I might give some non-bullshit level probability to the possibility of our phone calls and internet and -maybe- credit card transactions all being monitored... but every retail store and web site? With all those entirely different data models and transaction implementations? Even just the major ones would be a HUGE HUGE HUGE operation. .. or are we all in on it?

OH MY GOD. The network admins must be involved! Oh crap oh crap... Who's my admin? Oh yeah, ME! I MUST BE SPYING ON MYSELF FOR THE GOV'MENT!

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[dead_user]

You see, the retailer has to pay that tax whether or not they pass it on to you. They're not going to give me free money.

You see, the retailer is supposed to pay that tax if they pass it on to you.

FTFY

There are legitimate customers that buy from retail stores that do not pay taxes. Religious organizations, Non-Profits, ALL government entities, ad nauseum. The retailer isn't expected to pay the tax in their stead, it just doesn't get collected. I have worked for 2 of the above mentioned non-taxed groups and have paid cash for tax-exempt sales on numerous occasions. There is no way for the store or the tax collector to tell if the sale was for my job, or me personally.

I can see some less than scrupulous stores passing cash sales as wholesale/Out of State/Exempt to less than scrupulous customers. Giving someone a 9% discount can buy a lot of loyalty, even if they have 1-2% higher profit margin.

Don't infer from this that I am at all comfortable with CC tracking or suspicion based on use of cash. I'm not.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[Anonymous Coward]

Perfect.

I have one credit card and that's for the few purchases online
and only then through NewEgg.com

Honestly, I pay for almost everything with cash, keeping a the receipt.
Very rarely do I pay for anything with a check.

Only one time have I run into problems and that was paying with a $100 bill;
the cashier thought (knew for sure) it was counterfeit.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[causality]

You see, the retailer is supposed to pay that tax if they pass it on to you.

I believe you are conflating two different things: those who are legitimately exempt from sales taxes, versus the mechanism of collection.

If I am not a non-profit or purchasing wholesale or other tax-exempt entity, then that sale requires a sales tax to be collected. The retailer can pass that onto me, usually in the form of an exclusive (separate line-item on the receipt) tax. Or they can charge me only the up-front price of the items and then pay the sales tax from their profits. One way or another, the retailer is liable for the sales tax. The standard way of dealing with it is simply to pass it on to me at the point of sale.

Of course religious organizations and other exempt entities don't cause the retailer to have to pay the tax. They're exempt. What I was describing in my original post is retail sales to which the tax does apply. In those cases the retailer has to pay it whether or not they pass it on. You could have figured that out since no other scenario makes sense within that context.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to buy sulphur, charcoal and ammonia on a regular basis. When I am shopping I can put a small amount of these in with the rest, but for the rest I buy with cash.

Ammonia is used to clean with; sulphur is used for ph control in gardens and charcoal is an excellent art tool.

Yet, I am concerned about being watched. So, when I buy large amounts of ammonia I do so with cash. Sulphur can be purchased from places that are hard to track. Good charcoal is a bit more of a problem, but doable.

Do "they" have a profile on me? Absolutely. Does anyone care? I have no idea. I just don't want my innocent purchased to lead to someone smashing my front door in and asking questions with a loaded gun being waved in my face.

Re:Big Business and Big Government

[dead_user]

No no, I got it. I totally understand what you're saying. You are absolutely correct as long as everyone plays by the rules. I was just saying that there are businesses out there that are willing to not charge tax AND not pay the tax. They simply mark it as a tax-exempt sale or roll it into one of the accounts that ARE exempt. There is no way for the powers that be to tell other than the merchant reporting it on its monthly sales tax returns. The only way to prevent this from happening at all is to require all tax-exempt purchases from being made with a traceable payment, say check or CC.

ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[mounthood]

Almost all forums have rules against personal attacks. You'd commonly be banned for posting someone else's "IRL" (in real life) information. Yet here we see corporations doing exactly that for nothing more than profit. Data-mining like this is the beginning of an assault on our right to be "secure in our persons" and enjoy privacy.

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[keefus_a]

Except there's a clear defense to this particular assault. It's called cash.

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[aztektum]

Yeah, data mining w/o direct consent should be illegal.

As we better understand the mechanisms of consciousness and the brain and realize this shit it possible, it should also be made illegal.

it is ridiculous that one could use these to manipulate you into buying more stuff. It goes against much of what the founding fathers of the US were against. An individuals mind must be their own.

Same goes for the propaganda networks posing as "news" programming on television. It's blatant co-opting of an individuals own faculties.

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[guspasho]

I'm not sure I understand your post. Are you saying the ads were a personal attack?

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[Anonymous Coward]

My thesis on this (specifically national ID numbers in Japan) focused on this... Basically the old way of thinking about privacy protection is useless. Data mining of the future means that you can't rely on obscurity or restriction of information at the source. Regulate what both gov an private sector can do with information, and make the enforcement no just effective but also respected. (something it is in norway, unlike the US)

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[causality]

Except there's a clear defense to this particular assault. It's called cash.

That may be why so many stores use loyalty cards.

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[raddan]

I have mixed feelings about data-mining. On the one hand, yeah-- I don't want people inferring things about my personal life. But on the other hand, if I walk into a store, and that store offers things I want, and doesn't bother trying to sell me something I don't want, isn't that a win for both of us? As someone who works with a lot of data regularly (compsci grad student... in fact I just finished my graphical probability models homework), I regularly find that technologies can almost always cut both ways. As another poster said, it boils down to the intent of the person using the tool. The one big thing going for you is that unsupervised inference is really, really hard to do right, and given that the volume of data is growing faster than our ability to process it, you're sort of awash in anonymity.

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[causality]

Yeah, data mining w/o direct consent should be illegal.

As we better understand the mechanisms of consciousness and the brain and realize this shit it possible, it should also be made illegal.

it is ridiculous that one could use these to manipulate you into buying more stuff. It goes against much of what the founding fathers of the US were against. An individuals mind must be their own.

Same goes for the propaganda networks posing as "news" programming on television. It's blatant co-opting of an individuals own faculties.

Agreed. This is one of those few cases where a legal solution may be the best. Make it illegal on a national scale and now no store has whatever competitive advantage it offers. They return to competing on a level field.

I feel the same way about this as I do about the vendorlock tactics of Microsoft and many other software companies: they're the actions of a company that does not believe in the merits of its products and their ability to compete openly on a level field. If a company indicates they do not really believe in their own products, or their own ability to honestly convince me to shop at their stores, who am I to argue with them?

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[demonlapin]

Every time you to to the store, get in line behind 70-year-old women. Within five visits, you're practically guaranteed to have one of them tell the cashier her phone number because she can't find the card (or left it at home). Use forever.

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[mounthood]

I'm not sure I understand your post. Are you saying the ads were a personal attack?

Yes. They are targeting people: focusing extraordinary attention on people, using lots of resources, and taking it very seriously. They are attacking people: exposing facts (or reckless speculations) about them, trying to manipulate them, and acting against the peoples best interests for their own reasons. That's why people consider things like ad hominem, outing, and stalking as attacks. You don't have to hit someone with a stick to attack them.

The pregnant teenager was both targeted and attacked. Her father followed the (unwritten) rules against personal attacks by going to the store and complaining.

Don't think 'it wasn't personal' since they did it to a group; that's bullshit. You don't get to target Gay men and then say, oh it's nothing personal guys. The content and context of the advertisements was personal; that was the point of data-mining in the first place. If nobody at the company knows the girls name, it doesn't change what they did to her.

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[mounthood]

As another poster said, it boils down to the intent of the person using the tool.

I doubt the pregnant teenager or her father care about the companies intent.

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[cusco]

Even better, use the phone number (321) 123-4567. Hundreds of people do. It's in the loyalty card databases of almost all the big retailers, and if it's not fill out a card with that number. Since the cashiers sometimes say, "Thank you Mr. Orwell" I have to assume that the first name on some of them must be George.

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[raddan]

Are we supposed to conduct our lives in such a way as not to hurt other people's feelings? The fact is that Target used information learned by a shopper visiting their store. Their store. They have every right to that information. If you have a problem with that, don't shop at Target.

Re:ad hominem, outing, and stalking

[mounthood]

I think you've hit the heart of it: what can we figure out about another person, and how should we use that information?

New technology is radically changing both of those, but we do have some guides about how to treat others: ad hominem, outing, and stalking. The technological changes are going to force us to develop clearer and more human rules about data-mining and using information. Trying to use property rights as a guide for morality will fail badly, just as using it as a guide for copyright is failing.

If you don't think Target did anything wrong, try imagining scenarios that you do think would be wrong. Personally, the idea of a commercial business revealing pregnancy is disgusting; all the more so because their intent was nothing but profit.

Good Data

[hhawk]

Good Data is just that.. and it can make solid predictions. It's clear transparency is good for markets (e.g., stock markets, Etc.) but is it good for people? My own take is data mining and tracking isn't evil; if you do business with a company you should assume, for better or worse, that they will try to understand and learn about you. If you don't wish that to happen, you need to pay in cash, not give them your zip code and avoid reward clubs, etc.

Re:Good Data

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh! So THAT's why Radio Shack always wanted to know all my personal info when all I was buying was a package of batteries - they want to figure out when I might be pregnant. Odd that ample facial hair, deep voice and other 'man'-sessories didn't clue them in.

Statistics 101

[clyde_cadiddlehopper]

Female customers who have recently 1) purchased a pregnancy test kit, 2) stopped buying tampons, and 3) purchased morning sickness remedies such as Saltine crackers.

Re:Statistics 101

[Rhacman]

4) Were affected by a recent factory recall on defective birth control products.

Re:Statistics 101

[Megahard]

Here's a few more:
Pickles
Ice cream
Wire coat hangers

Re:Statistics 101

[Tablizer]

Here's a few more: Pickles, Ice cream, ...

Extra points if they want pickle-flavored ice-cream.

Impressed

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm impressed the father came back to the store manager and admitted his error. Takes guts.

Re:Impressed

[pepeperes]

The manager apologized and then called a few days later to apologize again [...]

I know this is slashdot, it might be ok to not read TFA, but it seems you didn't even read the fine submission!

Not that specific

[Hentes]

So they are analizing what kind of products a customer buys, and if they are products associated with pregnancy then they market them even more products associated with pregnancy. Seems like that without all that funny little anecdotes about pregnancy prediction, this is just the same algorithm everyone else uses: offering a customer the types of products they have bought in the past. Also, a pregnant woman in the second trimester is quite easy to detect by the good old method of looking at her.

Re:Not that specific

[causality]

So they are analizing what kind of products a customer buys, and if they are products associated with pregnancy then they market them even more products associated with pregnancy. Seems like that without all that funny little anecdotes about pregnancy prediction, this is just the same algorithm everyone else uses: offering a customer the types of products they have bought in the past. Also, a pregnant woman in the second trimester is quite easy to detect by the good old method of looking at her.

Is this the US? Last time I visited, most women looked as if they were pregnant...

Pregnancy doesn't cause rolls of fat like a second pair of pseudo-breasts to grow on the shoulder blades. If you ever get confused, that's how you can tell.

And yeah, they can mod you down all they like. Simple fact is, if you respect yourself you take care of yourself. If you don't respect yourself and allow yourself to become morbidly obese, this indicates problems that are more than merely cosmetic.

The whole obesity deal is just part of the reactive mentality that never uses foresight to take responsibility for anything. If it did, then a person would only need to be 10-20 pounds overweight before saying "hey, I appear to be gaining weight; since I wasn't intending to do that, I should adjust my lifestyle and deal with it right now before it inevitably and predictably becomes a big problem that will be much more difficult to overcome." It's the same mentality that can't understand why giving certain powers to government is a bad idea, why a car loan of five years or more is a bad idea and indicates you can't really afford that car, why you should start saving up for your retirement while you're young, etc. etc.

A completely unpredictable and unforeseeable failure is an incredibly rare beast. Obesity is the same principle on a slightly more personal level. I think the obese people sense the obviousness of their mistake and feel ashamed of it, or else they'd never get so offended at the mere suggestion that maybe they failed. That kind of irritable hypersensitivity is unknown to secure people who had good reasons for doing what they did. It's well known to careless people who portray themselves as perpetual victims because they don't want to assume responsibility for their own affairs.

Re:Not that specific

[YrWrstNtmr]

offering a customer the types of products they have bought in the past.

They dive much, much deeper than that.
Get a scrip for a particular prenatal drug that is usually taken around delivery - 23 weeks (they know this from analyzing past purchases from everyone), they will then send you particular ads and coupons at specific time periods when you are most apt to buy those specific items. Crib before car seat, diapers after blankets. Or whatever their sales/marketing people show it to be.

Also, a pregnant woman in the second trimester is quite easy to detect by the good old method of looking at her.

The servers sending out the coupons aren't looking at her tummy. And often...is she preg or just fat.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Artraze]

Why do you find it so surprising that they do a good enough job of detecting pregnancy that after the better part of a decade they'll have found a case where the girl's father didn't know yet? Keep in mind that the girl is probably trying a lot harder to keep it a secret from her father than she is the store. Especially if he's the type that gets upset enough over stupid coupons implying potential pregnancy to go yell at a store manager? Yeah, I'm sure he's the first person she would tell.

Honestly, I expect this happens quite a lot, but most people aren't hotheaded enough to go yell at a store manager about coupons. (Who would then have to call the them back a couple days later? That strikes me as more creepy than the preggo-score.)

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[mosb1000]

Have you ever checked your mail? Notice how it's literally full of completely untargeted advertising? If that's profitable, how could this possibly not be?

Won't work on Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

We get out of the house/basement/apartment so rarely that by the time they have enough statistics on us, we'll be long dead.

Re:Won't work on Slashdot readers

[Wheatie]

Which is exactly why Amazon is doing the same sort of analysis on your purchasing habits.

Person of Interest?

[WorldPiece]

Reminds me of the tv shows Person of Interest and Numb3rs.. Amazing how much effort goes into targeted advertising rather than solving real problems.

Re:Person of Interest?

[Anonymous Coward]

Reminds me of the tv shows Person of Interest and Numb3rs..

Amazing how much effort goes into targeted advertising rather than solving real problems.

Au contraire... it does solve a real problem. The problem the corporate masters of the companies causing the advertising, that is "How do we avoid leaving money on the table? How can we maximize profits for our owners?"

If a company has the capacity to do "x", whatever it is, and doing it makes them more money than not doing it, in the end, (depending on how soon they want that particular quantity of money,) then they do it. It's like the giant inflatable gorilla at the car dealership. It's stupid, unrelated to cars, but gets your attention, causes you to look in their direction, and maybe results in higher odds of you going to THAT dealership.

Same reason the peacock's tail is all colorful, and fancy. To get attention. Well, if they a net increase in profits, they've won, as far as their concerned.

In the end, if you have any question pertaining to why a business does whatever, the answer, ultimately, behind all other answers and driving forces, is this: money. Profit. Cold, hard, end of the day cash. Nothing else matters (to them).

I wonder what they make of my wife's shopping.

[Anonymous Coward]

She had a hysterectomy before we started dating... But starting when her eldest turned 11 every time she got a good coupon for pads or tampons and they were also on sale, she'd stock up. With the current stockpile both girls will be married and contemplating on a second kid by the time they run out of supplies.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[canajin56]

Just like TFA, two months ago gmail started serving me nothing but breast pump, neonatal vitamin, and baby bottle ads. I'm a guy, but I am married so maybe they're trying to send a hint "why don't you have kids yet? Here we'll give you discount mail-order vitamins if you get busy!" But they also send me dating site ads. So if they do know I'm married, they don't have a high opinion of my marriage! Maybe that's why they want me to knock my wife up? ;)

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

. . . start with 2000 known customers who started buying diapers and formula on a certain date. Now what did they start buying seven months before that?

Well, they weren't buying condoms, I'd imagine . . .

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Beardo the Bearded]

I practice yoga regularly. My mat wore out, so I was looking for a replacement. (I'm taller than the normally-sized 68" mats, so story of my life, I have to get something 4" bigger.) My job is military contracting.

The combination of yoga + weaponry apparently triggers a profile of "interested in single men".

Google thinks I'm gay... or possibly a woman, I'm not sure.

(It's IE at work. I don't get ads at home.)

Target:

[JustAnotherIdiot]

Better at noticing your kid isn't just fat than you are!

That is why I frequently and easily lend out my ca

[SmallFurryCreature]

People often forget there client card at my super market (AH) and I happily lend them mine. Must give them some interesting stats.

The problem is that marketeers really think this matter. Lets examine this particular case for just how idiotic it is.

Target profiles its EXISTING customers to be able to bombard them with coupons for products these same customers already pass everyday... Can win these customers for live? YOU ALREADY GOT THEM! And now instead of them buying the products they already seen at full price, you are reducing the price for no good reason.

TV shows just how desperate marketeers are to prove they matter, the program you are watching interrupted by ads, for the program you were trying to watch followed by overlays of the next program, so please stay tuned... I would if you didn't ruin the program with all this begging. It is like going to a restaurant and having the chef come over after every bite to ask if you are enjoying yourself.

Marketing doesn't sell products, marketing sells marketing. I am not saying ads don't work but rather that the constant overloading of ads, does not work. Check this for yourself, if an adblock takes longer then it used to, do you continue watching? Once ads were singular, to short to flick away. But the "going to the toilet" during the advertising is now a way of life and has been for decades. And here poor advertisers are trying to sell their products to viewers who are studying their toilet door.

Myself? I barely bother with TV anymore. If for some masochistic reason I want to see what happens, I download it and get rid of ads altogether. I have ad block installed and ghostery. NOT because I mind being tracked so much but because I just can't stand the interuptions and delays that slow ads and scripts cause.

This Target campaign targets existing customers into buy stuff they have to buy anyway and ignores new customers altogether... BRILLIANT. I know how effective it is, some marketeers and statisticians got payed big bugs. Mission accomplished. Any actual new customers that make up for the costs and potential lawsuits? (Oh you just wait till they get it wrong or target a woman who had an abortion, or didn't want her family to know or had a miscarriage).

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

what are they buying those 7 months in advance? Maternity wear! Target is one of the last few stores to actually have this section.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Nemesisghost]

Oh, I assure you it is not BS. I took a graduate level DBMS class and the book for the class has a chapter on data mining. This was a specific example given as to the uses of data mining. Hell, this guy probably used the exact same algorithms from that book to do it.

And people called me paranoid

[JohnFen]

Absolutely detestable. And common. This type of thing is precisely why I take great pains to avoid being tracked, online and off. Pay cash, don't use affinity cards, block all online ads, javascript, etc., and avoid doing business with companies that use these types of methods.

Re:And people called me paranoid

[the eric conspiracy]

Why is it detestable? Targeted marketing is economically efficient and helps people identify sources of products they want/need.

Re:And people called me paranoid

[the gnat]

Absolutely detestable.

Why is this detestable? "Detestable" is Comcast sending me mail at least once a week for the last three years, despite the fact that I don't watch TV, have no use for their services, and have never responded to anything they sent. Or American Express checking my credit rating nearly ten times in the space of a few years, and bombarding me with credit card offers. I already have two cards, assholes, and that's at least one more than I need. If I call a girl twice and she doesn't call me back, I get the hint and move on, but you people just keep on trying.

I hate shopping, and untargeted advertising rarely appeals to me; I'd much rather have companies with whom I have an existing customer relationship tell me about deals that I can actually use. Safeway lets me know when they have sales on frozen chicken breasts or nonfat milk; Amazon suggests books on history and programming that I might enjoy. None of this bothers me, because I don't buy anything from these stores that I'd feel uncomfortable about. (That said, if I buy birth control I'll pay cash and not use any customer loyalty cards. Private is private.) I don't want them sharing my shopping history with anyone - and I fully support laws that limit their ability to do so - but why shouldn't they try to cater to my habits? The fact is, they'd be idiots not to, and I'd be doing exactly the same thing if I were in their position. This isn't creepy or weird, it's how to run a profitable business without exploiting your workers or screwing your competitors.

Really, the only thing that bothers me is how private this data stays. As long as it's strictly internal and automated, I have no problem with them mining it for every useful correlation. But there is incredible potential for abuse, and not just selling this data to other companies: what if state governments start suing Amazon demanding to know the shopping records of everyone in their state so they can charge use taxes? (I'm not making that up - it really has happened, only it was an online vendor of cigarettes.) The data need not necessarily leave the company; I could imagine unscrupulous employees looking into the data for their neighbors, and wondering why the married man down the street was suddenly spending a lot of money on condoms and flowers.

Re:And people called me paranoid

[Sollord]

and according to the FBI your likely a extremist/terrorist and need to be on the watch list.

Re:And people called me paranoid

[arose]

Or American Express checking my credit rating nearly ten times in the space of a few years, and bombarding me with credit card offers. I already have two cards, assholes, and that's at least one more than I need.

Got it, targeted ads you don't want are detestable, targeted ads you do are not. Great reasoning.

Re:And people called me paranoid

[the gnat]

Got it, targeted ads you don't want are detestable, targeted ads you do are not. Great reasoning.

The American Express ads aren't targeted - they know absolutely nothing about me or my shopping habits from my credit rating, only that I have used a credit card in the past. What's offensive is that I have no pre-existing business relationship with them and have given them no indication that I want to start one. I consider this an invasion of my privacy. It's like if I suddenly start getting book offers from Barnes and Noble on the basis of my Amazon purchases - even if they're books I might buy, my response to B&N would be "fuck off". And yeah, I'm not happy that any company can look up my credit rating without my prior authorization either.

Re:And people called me paranoid

[arose]

The American Express ads aren't targeted - they know absolutely nothing about me or my shopping habits from my credit rating, only that I have used a credit card in the past.

No different than Amazon offering every X in the world if you buy one. You use a credit card, ergo you are a person interested in having a credit card.

And yeah, I'm not happy that any company can look up my credit rating without my prior authorization either.

That's what you really should be upset about if ads per-se don't bother you. AmEx is not gathering the data and sharing it with god knows who without so much as attempting to verify it, AmEx should really be the least of your worries in this scenario.

Re:And people called me paranoid

[JohnFen]

It's not the targeted marketing that I find detestable, it's the data mining that is detestable. It is detestable that any company can learn such intimate details about people without their conscious, informed consent. This is a grave privacy invasion, and it can only stop being an invasion if the companies are invited in a meaningful way.

That targeted marketing is economically efficient doesn't make it a good thing, by the way. There are lots of objectionable things that are very economically efficient. I also disagree with the notion that targeted marketing is incredibly helpful to consumers. For that to be true, then advertising in general would have to be informative and honest. But it's not -- with very few exceptions, advertising is misleading and manipulative. Whether or not its targeted doesn't affect that one way or the other.

AARP

[Tony Isaac]

Maybe this is what AARP has been doing. They've been sending me invitations to join their organization for years, ever since I was in my 20's. Undoubtedly their data mining algorithms determined that I would one day reach retirement age, so they are doing everything they can to "capture" me now!

Re:AARP

[tompaulco]

Maybe this is what AARP has been doing. They've been sending me invitations to join their organization for years, ever since I was in my 20's. Undoubtedly their data mining algorithms determined that I would one day reach retirement age, so they are doing everything they can to "capture" me now!
I, on the other hand, at age 41, have not been contacted by AARP. This probably means that their data mining algorithms have determined that I will NOT reach retirement age.

Re:AARP

[Anonymous Coward]

AARP will practically give away membership so they can inflate the number of people they represent and keep their political power.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[AliasMarlowe]

OK guys, raise your hands - how many have gotten 'feminine products' adverts?

That, and worse. It's partly a consequence of the whole family sharing the same IP address in conjunction with quasi-safe browsing habits.

We all have different logon accounts on each of several PCs, and we tend to use more than one browser per person (mostly Opera, Firefox, Chromium). However, both my wife and I have shown the kids how to get their browsers to automatically delete cookies and LSOs on terminating a session, and encourage them to clear private data regularly. So essentially all the vendors have to go on is the IP address, since the cookies are new every visit.

The only one that bugs me is the "daily deal" ad shown at one weather web site, which invariably shows me a picture of a tray of sushi (one of my favorite foods). I don't recall doing any online searching/browsing/shopping for sushi, and doubt if the "daily deal" even has a place offering sushi within 200km of me.

What do they know on me?

[HideyoshiJP]

I'm a rather young man and I only seem to get things in the mail from the AARP, AAA and Medicare Providers. Maybe it was that sweatervest I bought.

Re:What do they know on me?

[benhattman]

Are you Rick Santorum?

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[apotheon]

-- "What Are They Gonna Do When Were All Using Freenet"

Statistical profiling, of course.

Walmart

[Tony Isaac]

I'm convinced that Walmart does this kind of data mining too. As soon as I walk into the store, their computer systems identify me, figure out what I'm about to buy, and make SURE that item is already sold out!

Re:Walmart

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess would be Walmart intentionally lets stocks of various high desireables run lower so that they can push higher margin items that people don't quite want so much.

Re:Walmart

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got it completely wrong. What they are doing is manipulating *everyone* into buying that item. You initially resist but eventually give in. That's why you're late and the item is sold out.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[apotheon]

(Who would then have to call the them back a couple days later? That strikes me as more creepy than the preggo-score.)

Maybe the manager asked for the telephone number when the guy came to complain so that he could call back a couple days later and offer them some kind of conciliatory special deal at the store (like discounts on something). On the other hand, maybe the manager was trying to arrange for the guy's family to no longer get (at the time, presumed faulty) targeted advertising, and was calling back to give them an update on the process (once again having explicitly asked for contact information for just this purpose). I don't know if it was actually creepy. We don't know enough details to come to a conclusion about that, I think.

Anyone else?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I just want to try to get Target to think I'm pregnant when I'm not. OMG WHAT DO I HAVE TO BUY? Reverse (perverse?) marketing!

1 For English 2 for French

[Anonymous Coward]

When I no longer need to press 1 for English every time, every single time, when I use the same ATM card, at the same terminal, then call me. Until then, I say piffle. Piffle Piffle Piffle.

Really, the ATM card asking if I want English or French, there is no excuse for that. LOL! What, the banks didn't each make a billion dollars last quarter? Can't afford and IF statement?

Judging the 'Reccommendeds' by youtube, all this tech does is put you into one of about maybe 10 boxes. It is frightening to see what Youtube thinks I am.

And if the advertiser has enough money, everybody gets the ad anyways. All the small fish trying to economise ad dollars by targetting get blown right out of the eyeball space by the big money.

If they algorithms had any of these brains, they would see I never click and never buy and the websites would not display any ads and save the advertisers money.

Frickin' Snake Oil. But hey, I got nothing against selling snake oil. The almighty buck is my god too. Why else do sheep have fleece?

Re:1 For English 2 for French

[demonlapin]

Eh, you'll get the modern software soon enough. We used to have to do that with Spanish down here, until they came up with the brilliant idea that (since the vast majority of customers will use the default language) they should just have a little button press on the first screen to switch languages if you want to - otherwise you can immediately start using the machine. Same with phone systems - they say "Thank you for calling X. Para continuar en espanol, marque el dos."

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[Dinghy]

Marketing doesn't sell products, marketing sells marketing. I am not saying ads don't work but rather that the constant overloading of ads, does not work.

Some does, and some doesn't, but I'll admit when they print off one of those $0.50 off Pizza Hut coupons, I stop and buy one because it gives me an excuse to do so. They know my weakness! STOP THE COUPONS!

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or your wife has been cheating on you, and Google has figured it out already and is trying to get you to get your act together. They've also figured out that the son of a bitch got her pregnant, even though she's still trying to hide that from you, hence those ads.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

"by Beardo the Bearded ....
Google thinks I'm gay... or possibly a woman, I'm not sure."

You're the bearded woman, I saw you in a freakshow.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[dcigary]

There are ads on Facebook? Really?

(hugs his ABP)

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[brainzach]

The marketing campaign tries to get customers to buy new different products based on their past purchases. They want to identify pregnant women so they can encourage them to buy products at Target once they have a baby, instead of the customer shopping at a competitor for their baby needs.

Target figured out that people change their shopping habits the most when they had a baby, so it provides them with the biggest opportunity to win over customers. Knowing that someone is pregnant is marketing gold. The methods are based of research and the evidence is supported in Target's sales. It isn't just a bunch of BS.

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[Anonymous Coward]

It is true that some poorly implemented loyalty programs just turn into price-discounting programs. Good loyalty programs increase the marginal revenue per customer. Sophisticated algorithms target customers with offers and measure response and effectiveness. This works. IBM, Oracle, and TIBCO and others in the Fortune 100 sell software that does, this. It costs 8 figures, and it works.

It works best on people like you because you think you are getting a discount!

Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[LordZardoz]

Lets have a fictional person called Phil (a victim) and Bob (the guy posting the info) for the purpose of this post.

If Bob posts Phil's name, address, and phone number in a message board without Phil's permission, there is most likely some kind of hostile intent. This usually happens when Phil has managed to make Bob angry for some stupid reason (flame war, abortion debate, maybe Phil is just being a jackass here. Who knows? The reason is not relevant). So Bob gets Phil's info and posts it online in that message board. Why does Bob do this?

Most likely, Bob is hoping someone will go to Phil's house and beat him up. Or break a few windows. Maybe Bob just wants someone to take a crap in a paper bag, light it on fire, and throw it on Phils porch. The intent is to make it easy for all of Phils enemies to harass or inflict harm on Phil.

Target or Walmart do not have any hostile intent. They just want to sell you stuff. They gather and analyze data, and the only objective harm thaty they would intentionally cause is filling your mail box with unwanted spam. I would agree that doing so should earn someone a kick in the nuts anyway, but it is only annoying, not dangerous. In many cases they are using info they gathered themselves for their own benefit. It could also be argued that what they are doing is of mutual benefit: Walmart gets Phil to buy stuff, Phil will have a chance to buy something he wants.

The only problem for Phil is when access to that data is then sold, shared , or illegally accessed by those whose interests may run against him. There needs to be legal protections in place for Phil, and Walmart needs to be held responsible for any harm that comes of them keeping that database.

END COMMUNICATION

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[ArcherB]

Just like TFA, two months ago gmail started serving me nothing but breast pump, neonatal vitamin, and baby bottle ads. I'm a guy, but I am married so maybe they're trying to send a hint "why don't you have kids yet? Here we'll give you discount mail-order vitamins if you get busy!" But they also send me dating site ads. So if they do know I'm married, they don't have a high opinion of my marriage! Maybe that's why they want me to knock my wife up? ;)

Google's ads are based on the email you are reading or other things on your screen. For example, I see ads for the delicious meat-like product Spam when I'm on the Spam page (then again, Google does have a sense of humor). So for a fun exercise, try to find out what it is in your email is triggering the ad you are receiving.

Netflix

[TheNinjaroach]

If for some masochistic reason I want to see what happens, I download it and get rid of ads altogether.

I too believe that watching television is an incredibly painful experience. But there is some good content out there, and I pay Netflix $8 a month to watch it ad-free. I seriously think Netflix is easier and more convenient than TPB. Eventually, I suspect that significant price hikes and/or advertisements will make their way into Netflix, but until that happens I think Netflix is superior.

Re:Netflix

[Phrogman]

Yep, my wife and I concluded that there was not enough good shows on TV to justify paying for cable. There are good shows on TV that we like but they are all broadcast elsewhere and not available in our area.
Furthermore anything we did watch was in large part actually advertisements. Older shows that had less room made for ads were further trimmed to make room for the new requirements for ads (probably 1 min out of every 4-5 of show). Watching a show without advertisements is so much more enjoyable.
Netflix is now our primary source of entertainment - other than movies from the library - and its at an affordable price. Previously Cable+Internet+Phone was costing us around $100/mo. Internet+Netflix is costing us around $48/mo, and we use our cellphones instead of a land line. True, with Netflix we don't get the latest and greatest stuff right away, but I can live with the delay. I have all but stopped going to movies because paying $30 for movie+food got unreasonable.

Doesn't Really Bother Me

[TheNinjaroach]

I'm not sure that targeted advertisement really bothers me that much. I have to say, my ads in GMail have been spot on more than a few times. Compared to the mind-numbing mass-appeal aim of television advertising, I guess that targeted ads really don't bother me that much.

Re:Doesn't Really Bother Me

[JohnFen]

It's a fine point, to be sure, but I feel compelled to make it: I don't mind targeted ads any more or less than nontargeted ones. I ignore them all equally. It's the data mining I object to.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[ArcherB]

. . . start with 2000 known customers who started buying diapers and formula on a certain date. Now what did they start buying seven months before that?

Well, they weren't buying condoms, I'd imagine . . .

Or they were buying condoms, just they were getting the cheap kind or the ones on clearance.

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[Bardwick]

It's usually not the store that does it (alone). I worked data storage for a company that pulls customer buying information from grocery stores, retail outlets, large financial institutions, well, just about from everyone. Major banks foward them your credit card sweeps about the same time it shows up on your online statement. Last I was there, roughly three years ago, they had 87 ASSUMED data fields on over 30 million consumers, which were extrememly accurate. 12 employees to support a 7 TB oracle RAC.

Press 3 For Newfie

[Anonymous Coward]

I got a 2 for one sale on magic silver bullets but only if you call now!

Target's not the only one doing that

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife started receiving baby "catalogues" and brochures for baby products from a large-ish chain pharmacy-type store in Canada (Shoppers Drug Mart) shortly after she got pregnant too. It definitely was creepy. It was before we told anyone. This was 6 years ago.

In this case, I figured they somehow mined the data from us using the store rewards card. It never occurred to me that an algorithm of *loosely related* products could predict the due date as well. And I'm a programmer.

We don't use that rewards card anymore.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah... some feminist classed hot lesbo pr0n as women audience only...

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pay cash. That ends their data mining at Target (and Walmart, and everyone else).

Have fun with the system

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like the old buy three things to weird out the cashier game buy stupid things from time to time to mess up the algorithms

. I'm buying Condoms, Dungeons and Dragons and Adult diapers.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[durrr]

Imagine what certain well wishing government organs can do with predictive data mining if some commercial waste handling system like target can have any luck with it.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[causality]

Just like TFA, two months ago gmail started serving me nothing but breast pump, neonatal vitamin, and baby bottle ads. I'm a guy, but I am married so maybe they're trying to send a hint "why don't you have kids yet? Here we'll give you discount mail-order vitamins if you get busy!" But they also send me dating site ads. So if they do know I'm married, they don't have a high opinion of my marriage! Maybe that's why they want me to knock my wife up? ;)

Soo... how much more competitive would their prices be, if they didn't spend money on these kinds of systems and marketing and customer tracking, and just accepted that there's nothing wrong with people buying what they want, when they decide they want it? Think they could undercut (or nearly undercut) Wal-mart while providing a more pleasant shopping experience (which wouldn't be hard)?

Consider all the effort it takes to design systems like this, to hire employees to use and maintain them, to purchase the equipment, to pay for data centers, etc. I mean if a woman gives birth she's going to be buying diapers; if she likes your store she'll buy them there on her own without this sort of manipulation. Then there's the cost of ill will -- the desire to treat my private life like your personal marketing brochure without even showing me the basic respect of asking for my permission strongly disinclines me to do business with you. It's called dignity, and I realize it's going out of style but it isn't dead yet.

So is this truly profitable in the long run, as a business practice? Or is it just another "make this quarter's numbers look good, the 'consumers' are used to bending over and taking this kind of thing anyway" type of deal?

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[Anonymous Coward]

But this article says nothing about TV. It is about complex targeted (pun!) marketing, not generic TV adds that everyone sees. You did not read and/or comprehend the article.

That explains it...

[justdiver]

My mother was bedridden for a few weeks after having surgery. I was doing her shopping during this time and for a while even after she wasn't on bed rest. After about 3 months of this I started getting targeted adverts for feminine products. Needless to say, my fiance was confused when she came home to find them addressed to me and not her.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Applekid]

But cash has serial numbers! Production dates! Traceability through the Fed and member banks down to the ATM you withdrew from, and the account you used to withdraw, and who has been paying money into that account.

I post this kidding around, but I have to wonder if there has even been a truly dedicated group of people who have set to track a person that they could audit cash. I guess I'll know if I see a cashier scanning the bills I pay with.

Wow, for a second I thought it said...

[wisebabo]

... even if she didn't (herself) know that she was pregnant! I thought maybe Target had pheromone/hormone sniffers or hidden ultra-sound scanners.

Now THAT would be creepy!

Re:Wow, for a second I thought it said...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe she doesn't? Did a lady suddenly buy just peanut butter, pickles, and anti-nausea medicine who had never bought those before? Give her a coupon for a pregnancy test!

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Pay cash. That ends their data mining at Target (and Walmart, and everyone else).

Don't count on it. For one thing Target has been installing license plate scanners in all their parking lots - ostensibly for "customer safety." But if you are in the habit of purchasing the same combination of products on most of your trips to the store all they need to do is compare that "purchase fingerprint" with the list of cars in the parking lot at the time and after a few iterations they will be able to link your license plate with your purchasing habits.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Marillion]

There is a test (ROC) used to evaluate sensitivity and specificity of a selection criteria. If you have 2000 known cohorts, use 1000 to train the algorithm and 1000 to validate the algorithm. Once tuned, use that algorithm to classify remaining candidates that match the cohort criteria (i.e.: women, age 20 to 40, ... yada yada)

I suspect they're using the loyalty program mass mailing to send these. There are probably 100's of coupons in the packet. The packet probably already has language like, "just for you!" on it.

Not me

[HalAtWork]

I just think it's 50 cents off a $15 purchase I never would have made. I still don't want to spend the $14.50. It's like buying stuff in a grocery store just because it's on sale, I won't buy something I don't need just because the price is lower. That's idiotic.

On a side note, I also don't buy the slightly cheaper store brand just to save money. It's inferior quality, and once sales drop for the good quality brands, they stop ordering it and it disappears from shelves, and guess what? They just raise the price for the store brand since there's nothing else to compete. I don't want those oily cheeses, tasteless water-filled low-grade canned products, or disgusting modified/replacement ingredient everything else.

Re:Not me

[Anonymous Coward]

I just think it's 50 cents off a $15 purchase I never would have made. I still don't want to spend the $14.50. It's like buying stuff in a grocery store just because it's on sale, I won't buy something I don't need just because the price is lower. That's idiotic.

Need is the wrong term. Few people need a pizza. A lot of people might want a pizza. Unless you're a vegan or have other dietary restrictions, you'd probably eat pizza more often if it was really cheap. A fifty cent coupon isn't meant to get every individual thundering to the store - it is meant to get those people for whom $15 is just a bit too much.

On a side note, I also don't buy the slightly cheaper store brand just to save money. It's inferior quality, and once sales drop for the good quality brands, they stop ordering it and it disappears from shelves, and guess what? They just raise the price for the store brand since there's nothing else to compete. I don't want those oily cheeses, tasteless water-filled low-grade canned products, or disgusting modified/replacement ingredient everything else.

In a large number of cases, the store brand not only uses the same ingredients as the name-brand, it's actually made with the same equipment at the same factory by the same workers. In those cases, choosing the name brand is literally paying for a label.

Re:Not me

[realityimpaired]

I just think it's 50 cents off a $15 purchase I never would have made. I still don't want to spend the $14.50. It's like buying stuff in a grocery store just because it's on sale, I won't buy something I don't need just because the price is lower. That's idiotic.

That's the wrong way to use coupons/sales. And yes, it is idiotic. But there is a reason that many *wealthy* families use coupons: used properly, they can cut down on your cost of living by a significant amount.

Case in point: right now, my regular grocery store is having a sale... $3.99/lb for beef roasts, or about half of the normal cost for this particular cut. A large roast will still cost you $25 or more, but that is half the cost, and it's something you may buy anyway. They also currently have pork tenderloin on sale, and another grocery store I visit regularly has chicken legs on sale (great for making soup, and as a soup, it isn't adversely affected by freezing for a month or two until needed). By adjusting my habits to buy food that's on sale, I can save large amounts of money over time. And since I have to buy *something*, why wouldn't I buy the cut of meat that's on sale for half off? And to carry it further, if I have the freezer space, and am more concerned with cost than quality, why wouldn't I buy large amounts when it's on sale and freeze it? I know people who never pay full price for food, and when your food budget could be higher than your rent budget (try having a family with 2 adults and 4 teenagers, some time), that's a substantial savings.

Re:Not me

[arose]

And since I have to buy *something*, why wouldn't I buy the cut of meat that's on sale for half off?

Because it might still not be the best deal? Even ignoring alternatives, you don't have to buy that cut of beef, if you have to buy beef the $3.79 cut at full price is the better choice if you value cost over quality. Though I prefer to balance quality meat with beans, lentils, TVP, tofu, seitan etc. It's net cheaper and get to have some really good meat without sacrificing nutritional needs.

Re:Not me

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you've never tried "smart choice" or "irresistable" or "compliments" brands. Horrible, horrible stuff. They are definitely not the same ingredients or the same quality. I'll definitely buy President's Choice, but not that other crap.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Above]

Or Facebook and the advertisers overestimate it. For many of the things advertised (that aren't click-through buys) there's no way to know if the ads work. The ad sellers exploit this fact.

When coke shows you a coke advert they really have no way to know if you wander off to the corner store and buy one or not. I suspect for many large companies you could virtually eliminate advertising and not change sales one iota.

Ironically it's the sort of tracking in this article that might eventually prove it.

Intelligent Advertising

[jmactacular]

They really need to come up with a solution for more intelligent advertising. I for one would gladly opt into providing some central database with my basic demo/interest data, so when I turn on the TV I don't have to see Tampax and Viagra commercials.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[perlchild]

They aren't interested in what you're interested in buying.

They're interested in what they can persuade you to buy.

The advertiser's job in this is the semi-underhanded part of this.

Whatever "value" they have to the system is how they can affect your purchasing habits. So even if you gave them a list of what you're interested in seeing, they'd try to cheat on that list, to show you stuff OFF your list. Because what's on your lit, you're presumably interested in buying, no matter what they do.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[masshuu]

because I'm a guy, i clearly want to be persuaded buy tampons or i'm 21 with almost no income, i clearly need to be persuaded to buy a $40,000 car

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[oztiks]

And the fact the web is killing retail makes all this sound so meaningless. Wow they can pickup human behavior and manipulate it to try and get a sale, yet the retail sector is recording record low sales...

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[crutchy]

its funny you mention that, because your girlfriend might get you to go buy tampons for her, and your recognition of the brand you saw in an ad might make you more comfortable selecting that brand over other brands you've never heard of before, and you might not have the money for a $40,000 car now, but someday you may, and exposure to certain brands (usually the ones you see regularly in television advertising) means you will more likely choose a car from a brand you're familiar with, as if you choose something that isn't heavily advertised, none of your friends will be impressed with it when you roll up to work the next day. market research deliberately extends beyond the obvious because nobody wants to buy something that they think they're being tricked into buying, so the task of advertisers is to trick consumers into buying something without them thinking they're being tricked (so they think they are making their own choice).

if you took away all forms of advertising, people would spend much less, and only on things they needed more. we are manipulated into buying stuff we don't need, and that's why there is such big money in advertising (google etc).

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[SJHillman]

Waaaay back when I first got email (late 90's... I'm young, I know), our family used Juno. When creating a new account, the client gave you the option of going through a 3 minute survey so you could choose your interests and hobbies - the ad-supported client would then display relevant ads based on your survey. I thought this was a decent model for a good balance between privacy and showing me ads that I might actually be interested in.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[SJHillman]

Obviously you've never had a girlfriend who has sent you to buy tampons. You make damn sure you get EXACTLY what she tells you to... when she needs them is NOT the time to be making mistakes.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[masshuu]

and you think ill be choosing tampon brand when? If there is ever a situation where i'm buying tampons, im going to ask my girlfriend the brand first lest i have to return tampons...

Also when i decide to spend $40,000 because "i like the name" ill give you the $40,000

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[SpongeBob Hitler]

Obviously you've never had a girlfriend

This is slashdot. You really could have simply ended your whole post there.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[crutchy]

good point. no i don't have a girlfriend, i have a wife, an you are right that you buy the brand she says, but that wasn't really my point (the advertising obviously worked on her)

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[crutchy]

my point was that "your decision" is only an illusion. if people just wanted a comfortable car, why wouldn't they buy a second-hand one that does the job? granted many do, but not by choice (more lack of funds for anything else). the entire new car market is targeted at people with enough money to be manipulated into buying something they don't really need.

if you really need any more explanation than that, you are an idiot.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[masshuu]

Certainly advertising is to target average people with money but I also thing your assuming i'm lumped in with the general population.
Your also missing my point, Advertisements are designed to, as you said, give brand recognition. They also drive impulse purchases. Its no doubt that my dad decided he wanted to get a 2011 camaro because of advertising and he just had gotten his raise along with the his truck being paid off at the time.

My original point was that I am not going to be buying a new car in the next 10-15 yeas. In the event that i do, its not going to be an impulse buy because i saw the car on tv the previous week.
I also never ever see my self buying tampon brands that i choose plus a whole other host of items which lead us back to jmactacular's original post and how I would prefer to never see tampon and car advertisements.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[crutchy]

My original point was that I am not going to be buying a new car in the next 10-15 yeas

but you may in 20 years

In the event that i do, its not going to be an impulse buy because i saw the car on tv the previous week

no, but it might be because you saw a car on tv the previous week from a brand that you have been exposed to for the previous 20 years. if you "need" a new car, that need is going to arise from advertising of some sort, so why would you doubt that it could be from an ad that you saw the previous week? is an ad that you saw in the previous week any less trustworthy than one you saw 12 months ago? would you really buy a new car that wasn't recently advertised? otherwise it wouldn't really be "new" would it. if you are really as sensible as you're apparently claiming, you wouldn't ever buy a new car at all (its quite well known that a new car loses a decent percentage of its value when you roll it out of a showroom, and if you get one with about 50,000 kms on the clock from a fleet management company - for example - you avoid infant mortality and get a nicely run-in engine). but, even knowing all that, people still buy new cars, because there is social and personal value in having a new car that no amount of economics can justify.

I also never ever see my self buying tampon brands that i choose

none of us (of the male persuasion) "see" ourselves buying tampons, but what if your wife tells you to buy tampons of a particular brand, and you forget which brand when you get to the supermarket? are you going to come home with no tampons even though you know there is a chance they will be the wrong brand and that you'll have to return to exchange them? this is what advertisers are counting on, and i think its possibly a more common scenario than you might think. if i have to remember more than 3 things i usually get my wife to write it down, but sometimes i think i should be able to remember 3 things and forget one of them anyway.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[masshuu]

if you are really as sensible as you're apparently claiming, you wouldn't ever buy a new car at all ... people still buy new cars, because there is social and personal value in having a new car that no amount of economics can justify.

Which is why i said 10-15 years. certainly it is more efficient to buy a used vehicle and i likely will but if you wanted to get anal, you could say advertisements effect your choice there to. There is no reason one can't buy a new vehicle and if i have oodles of money, I might just buy something nice. You also have to understand that i don't understand this "social" thing. Why would i care what people think of my car? If i think its nice then that's all i care.

none of us (of the male persuasion) "see" ourselves buying tampons, but what if your wife tells you to buy tampons of a particular brand, and you forget which brand when you get to the supermarket? are you going to come home with no tampons even though you know there is a chance they will be the wrong brand and that you'll have to return to exchange them? this is what advertisers are counting on, and i think its possibly a more common scenario than you might think. if i have to remember more than 3 things i usually get my wife to write it down, but sometimes i think i should be able to remember 3 things and forget one of them anyway.

Cellphone much? You really are trying to hard to make me thing that tampon advertisements are for me. Do you work for a tampon company in their advertisement department?

Also, if you really want to get into "brand recognition", there are several brands i see heavily advertised that i will never buy or use. Why can't I opt out of these brands advertisements? I'm already very familiar with the name.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[murdocj]

I buy new cars and then drive them "forever" because I'm not interested in buying someone else's problems. Sounds like you've been manipulated into thinking used cars are a good deal.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[arose]

An economy of only second hand cars is not exactly possible. And saying that no one chooses to buy a car second-hand tells more about your own preferences than anyone elses.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[Sporkinum]

Isn't that what they do in Cuba?

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[arose]

The whole economy, not certain parts of it. If people in Cuba only buy second hand cars, they still need to import them from the initial buyers. If they have "enough" second hand cars already they will still need to buy new (or from someone who did) parts. If the people make all the parts for their own cars there is no car economy in Cuba, just a market to swap the cars.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[crutchy]

i don't understand this "social" thing. Why would i care what people think of my car?

some people do

Cellphone much? You really are trying to hard to make me thing that tampon advertisements are for me. Do you work for a tampon company in their advertisement department?

nope i don't work for a tampon company. sorry if i got a bit carried away. not everyone has a cellphone. i didn't use one till a couple of months ago.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

You date women too stupid to realize this happens every month and prepare accordingly? Why?

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[Registered Coward v2]

good point. no i don't have a girlfriend, i have a wife, an you are right that you buy the brand she says, but that wasn't really my point (the advertising obviously worked on her)

You can also tell the married men from the ones buying for girlfriends there - the married ones grab a box, may get on the cell to verify right brand and style, toe it on the belt and pay. if it's all they're buying they may even carry it out unbagged.

Single guy has loaded up his cart with beer, chips, maybe a pizza or two , furtively grabs a box and hopes it's the right one, then hides it on the belt between the beer and covers it with the chips; all the while looking around like a robber to make sure none of his buds see him buying them. I'm surprised single women have started stalking those aisle - not only can you quickly parse the married guys but the single ones are already partially housebroken to boot.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[N3Bruce]

Even if you can't afford to buy that new car, the people who make that car still want to make you think it is a good car. After all, if you can't afford a brand new Lexus (or Camry for that matter), you might still consider buying one used, and that supports the market for the guy who is considering trading his 4 year old Lexus for a newer one. On another level, continued advertising to current customers, (like the guy who just brought the new Lexus) reassures them that they made a good decision, and makes it more likely the customer will present a positive image of the brand to those around him. That kind of word of mouth advertising is the most valuable form of advertising there is, the loss of positive word of mouth advertising in a competitive marketplace can be the kiss of death in some cases.

Advertising is not only about getting you to buy more stuff, it can also be about getting you to buy them as well. A lot of the PR and advertising related to Tech Companies is about burnishing a corporate image to impress potential investors to make new or continued investments into a company. Many of the big defense contractors, agribusinesses like ADM, oil companies, and even large consumer product companies like Coca-Cola and Proctor and Gamble advertise in this way to look attractive to investors, or to lobby for legislation favorable to their company's interests.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[madhi19]

That because if B&M stores can only do that kind of profiling on just the clients who frequently buy with credit and or debit. On the web they can and are doing it to every clients. Better than that they know your browsing and search history on top of all your previous purchase. So they don't just know what you already bought but what you're looking at buying. You only need to visit Amazon and search a few times for a product to see it appear on the front page.

Re:Intelligent Advertising

[crutchy]

+1

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[causality]

Especially if he's the type that gets upset enough over stupid coupons implying potential pregnancy to go yell at a store manager? Yeah, I'm sure he's the first person she would tell.

Glad I'm not the only one who considered that angle.

Her decision to turn into a little slut in the first place may have been just to rebel against him.

Oh well. Her young adulthood is gone now and pursuing higher education or establishing a good career will be far more difficult. If she's really lucky, the father she so responsibly chose to have a child with will help her. If she's lucky.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Have you ever checked your mail? Notice how it's literally full of completely untargeted advertising? If that's profitable, how could this possibly not be?

The question is if it is more profitable and more profitable enough to justify all the overhead. At $100B valuation for facebook obviously some people think that is true. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out to be yet another case of regression to the mean. That once we've all been inculcated to massive personalized advertising campaigns they will lose most of their effectiveness.

Holy Captain Reading Comprehension!

[causality]

Lying with statistics is an art, but it appears that once in a while they can be useful.

How is this "lying"? Seems to mee they are spot on.

That isn't what he said at all.

This is news?

[mrquagmire]

Is this really news to most people?? Of course big companies that sell stuff analyze what their customers purchase. Why wouldn't they? The only problem I have with this story is that it's probably only the very tip of the iceberg of what kind and how much data companies have about us.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[KhabaLox]

try to find out what it is in your email is triggering the ad you are receiving.

Probably the Days of our Lives listserv.

google baiting search results?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've become suspicious of the google search results as well...
I suspect they sprinkle results with links that are designed to learn more about you.

So the next time you get a "WTF, how is that related to my search?" take note...

of course.. the more you look for a "glitch in the Matrix" the more likely you are to find one.

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[Dimitrii]

: TV shows just how desperate marketeers are to prove they matter, the program you are watching interrupted by ads, for the program you were trying to watch followed by overlays of the next program, so please stay tuned... I would if you didn't ruin the program with all this begging.

A few weeks ago the network had an ad half way through House that you could watch the pilot of some other show "Right Now" on their web page. It repeated "right now". I had to pause the TiVo to laugh about it with my wife. Of course with TiVo I could do it with out missing anything but encouraging someone to leave the show they are on if funny.

Re:Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[PeanutButterBreath]

Target or Walmart do not have any hostile intent. They just want to sell you stuff.

Yeah, buts let's just parse out the term "sell" a bit. They want you give them the maximum amount of your money in exchange for the least amount of value. Its not about finding out what you need/want, because they could just ask you that. Its about manipulating your perception of your own desires so that you "want" to buy as much as possible of the highest margin possible goods.

Not hostile?

Re:Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[CanHasDIY]

Personally, I consider using my information to try and sell me a bunch of shit I don't want to be hostile intent.

Wasn't there a court case not too long ago, where it was decided one did not have to have criminal intent to be convicted of a crime?

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK guys, raise your hands - how many have gotten 'feminine products' adverts?

I'm a virgin guy who's 30+, never had a girlfriend (Forever Alone, Wizardly powers, etc, etc.). Yet Google ads has been giving me advertisements for STD testing clinics for some strange reason. Feminine hygiene advertisements are merely strange and embarrassing. But if I had a girlfriend, I'd be in big trouble if she happened to use my PC while I left myself logged in, or shoulder-surfed.

I mean, trouble aside from her learning that I regularly visit 4-chan :P

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Guppy]

The combination of yoga + weaponry apparently triggers a profile of "interested in single men".

Google thinks I'm gay... or possibly a woman, I'm not sure.

That's the beauty of it. As far as the advertiser is concerned, it doesn't matter which!

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[demonlapin]

advertisements for STD testing clinics for some strange reason

Because you sound like a stereotypical john, and they figure you've been at it with street hookers.

TARGETed

[tepples]

This is why I oppose targeted advertising.

As if walmarted advertising is any better.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[rujholla]

I doubt it really takes all that much effort now. Originally to set up the system with where they are recording the data, it was probably pricey, but now all they need is the database and so good high end data analysis tools, so figure about $240 K (pure SWAG) a year for analyst and software. That works out to about 20K a month with one month being about your standard ad cycle, add in say $1 per person for a targeted ad campaign, if you make $10 per person that comes in and buys which is low, and you have a 10% response rate to your adds, you come out even if you can identify 20K people to send your ad to.

Obviously these numbers are all guess work, and I'm sure Target and the marketing company have done similar math but with similar results. I can't imagine a business savvy company would do these things without doing the math and determining it was worthwhile.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[jklovanc]

That kind of link would only be possible under the following conditions;
1. You would have to purchase the exact same list every time you went there. A different list would create a instance of you car there but no identifying list.
2. Noone else could purchase exactly the same list of items; An instance of the list being purchased without you car being there.
At best there could be a probable link.

The other issue is that there are hundreds of different lists purchased every day and hundreds of different cars parked in the lot ever day which creates a huge mamy to many relationship. Trying to link lists to cars is almot impossible.

Who is to say you even went into the store as many Targets are in malls.

Re:Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[Anonymous Coward]

Manipulation of perception solely for selling luxury* items is one thing. And I'm opposed to that idea. OTOH, what Target, et al are doing here is anticipating what you will buy, regardless of where you might buy it from, and sending incentives to shop with them. Is this manipulating your perception? yes. If you lose the battle of will, does this have adverse effect on you? very likely not.

*Loosely defined as things you can do without without adversely affecting your lifestyle. e.g. $100 watch vs $20 watch.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

30+ virgin?!?! you are going to die a virgin.

Comcast is an ISP

[tepples]

"Detestable" is Comcast sending me mail at least once a week for the last three years, despite the fact that I don't watch TV, have no use for their services, and have never responded to anything they sent.

You're posting this on Slashdot. Slashdot is on the Internet. Comcast sells access to the Internet. Is there a reason why you have no use for Xfinity Internet?

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[airdweller]

"Target has been installing license plate scanners in all their parking lots"
Any sources?

Re:Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[jklovanc]

On the other hand if you do not want the stuff then don't buy it. I would like it if a store sent me coupons for stuff that I want to buy. How do they do that and not send me coupons for stuff I don't want to buy? They data mine and try to figure out my purchase tendancies. So by data mining they are sending fewer useless coupons and more useful coupons. Sure they get it wrong sometimes. Just because I buy a lot of diapers does not mean that I have kids; it could mean that I am giving them to a single mothers' support group. Data mining is not an exact science it just reveales tendancies.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[praxis]

You make quite a few assumptions.

1) How do you know she's decided to be a slut?
2) How do you know she's interested in higher education?
3) How do you know she's career-minded?
4) How do you know she's selected the father irresponsibly?

Let people live their lives how they want to. If you are willing to ascribe names like slut and assume irresponsibility to a complete stranger over the internet, I wonder what sort of reactions you would have to your own children. I think you considered the same angle as apatheon, only from the side of the father rather than the daughter who didn't feel comfortable sharing her life decisions with her controlling parent.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[praxis]

Sorry, I meant Artraze not apatheon.

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[metrometro]

When reasonably well off people have a baby coming, they drop $500 to $2000 in supplies, furniture and clothes. Some do more. And they do it all at once, probably at the one place they're most happy with, in two or three trips. We spent maybe $1000 on Amazon. Before that, I had spent maybe $50 there in my life. I'm sure Target would have preferred that cash bomb landed in their store.

So, they're aiming the easiest, fattest targets. It's creepy, but it's not stupid.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I'm picturing something like:

You searched for: "I want my mat to be 4" bigger"
Did you mean: "I want my Matt to be 4" bigger"

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[TapeCutter]

Yes, the practice is very profitable, up to a point. For example, I no longer shop at Harvey Norman because of their intrusive data collection, I don't want to fill out what amounts to a fucking census form just for the privilege of being their customer. Worst still from a dignity POV, don't bullshit me and tell me the data collection is for my benefit should I wish to return the product when we both know that it's for marketing purposes and the receipt is all I need to enforce my consumer rights.

Targeted ads on the internet don't bother me at all because I am getting the indirect benefit of free content. I also find it interesting and sometimes amusing which topics the algorithms pick. They've worked out I'm an old fart living in Melbourne, but they are yet to work out I lost interest in dating sites a decade ago.

As a general rule, people are naturally adverse to being watched or followed. It's not just the social construct of dignity, it's an evolutionary thing that helped their ancestors to survive aggressive neighbours and hungry predators, it most likely goes back to a time long before we were even human. However, evolution is a hypocritical bitch since people generally have no qualms about covertly watching/following others, particularly when they think their subject is "up to no good" or is adorned with a "fine ass".

Re:Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[SydShamino]

I thought charges like "negligence" and "reckless endangerment" were already crimes where the perpetrator didn't need to have criminal intent. That's sort of the point of having those charges along with "abuse" and "assault" - in the former the perpetrator should have known what they were doing was wrong (but didn't) while in the latter the perpetrator clearly knew it was wrong.

They don't care

[TimHunter]

Fine. Go ahead. Take all the pains you want. The marketers don't care, any more than the spammers care when you filter their spam. It's all about the numbers, and if they can get their sales up that's all they care about. If they can't sell JohnFen anything then JoeFen's or MaryFen's money is just as good. They won't waste any time trying to track you or any other specific person, just the great mass of people who don't care or don't mind being marketed to.

Re:They don't care

[JohnFen]

My goal isn't to change the company's behavior. That's impossible. My goal is to escape, as far as possible, being a part of it. If companies ignore me because I try to dodge their data collection, then hooray! I was successful.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[crutchy]

advertising isn't about getting people to spend then and there; its merely brand recognition, so that when you do go to the store you're not buying something that nobody else will, which consumers seem to care about. its manipulation of our desire for social status; our perceived need for "stuff" that might make us seem cooler to our friends. its pretty scary if you think about it. market research is more psychology.

where it really gets creepy is their study of children in order to manipulate the spending of parents

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[webnut77]

Or they were buying condoms, just they were getting the cheap kind or the ones on clearance.

Try our new, and improved, swiss cheese condoms.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[fusiongyro]

I think you can actually make some tentative links. For example, if you have some product that sells very rarely and you take the intersection of the sets of cars that are in the parking lot whenever that product is sold, if that intersection becomes one car, the probability that this is the guy buying that product is probably higher than if you just averaged the sales of the product over all the cars that were ever present during that purchase. After all, if this product X is only purchased a few times a year and the only car that was there each time was car Y, the probability that this guy driving car Y just "happens" to be there every time that purchase happens becomes lower too.

I'm no statistician, but it seems like you could calculate the probability of it being a coincidence versus the probability of there being a relationship, and when the probability of there being a relationship is high enough, you could take the leap and make the assumption. Of course, you'll get false positives, probably many of them, but if you crank your thresholds up high enough it may be a net win.

A simpler way to improve your data would be to ferret out whatever public information you can about the owner of a given license plate. I wouldn't be too shocked if there were ways of getting this information in bulk. After all, you could do the same sort of subset thing with credit card purchases. If I see person A, B, and X on day 1 and person X, Y and Z on day 2, and I see cars a, b and x on day 1 and x, y and z on day 2, the same sort of subsetting operation could get you a bunch of single-element sets. You'd still probably have to have lots of days of information, but when you have 24-hour monitoring times thousands of stores nationwide times tens of thousands of customers per day per store, you quickly develop a pool of information you could sift through like this. And once I know your car is the one with plate X, I know it for keeps: you can stop paying with your cards all you want, I only needed so many repeat instances to figure it out.

Ultimately, it would be easy to get freaked out by all this, but let's remember what this information is used for: to send you coupons you'd actually want to use. That's the whole thing. Dial back the paranoia a bit.

Re:Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[mounthood]

The intent is to make it easy for all of Phils enemies to harass or inflict harm on Phil. Target or Walmart do not have any hostile intent. They just want to sell you stuff. ... it is only annoying, not dangerous.

So when someone goes around telling facts (or lies) about you, it's OK so long as there's no "hostile intent"? That's ridiculous. People "outing" gay people may intend harm, but many times they think it's best for the person and the community. Their intent doesn't make it OK.

Arguing that "it is only annoying, not dangerous" is just a lack of imagination.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[geekoid]

Someone in your house hold has been looking up baby/pregnancy stuff.

So, heads up.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I don't have the original article that tipped me off, but here is one from 2008 that talks about the early stages of the program.

http://newsbuster.com/pages/Mar08/03_14_08_target_creates.html

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[geekoid]

Hint:
For the vast majority of mailer, the person making money is the person who go the companies to buy in.

The great lie of advertising gets more and more exposed.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[dsgrntlxmply]

Excellent. I bought a natural latex yoga mat, so I surely must now be marked as a gay hippie with a latex fetish.

Application: the most conveniently available source of friction pad material for improvised tools to help disassemble stuck windsurfing masts. Figure that one out from data mining.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Ultimately, it would be easy to get freaked out by all this, but let's remember what this information is used for: to send you coupons you'd actually want to use. That's the whole thing. Dial back the paranoia a bit.

See, that's the thing. Once they've collected all this data and made all these cross-references there isn't anything preventing the data from being used for other reasons. Kind of like the way drivers licenses and social security numbers were not initially inteded to be a form of identification. Yet once they became widespread it was just soo easy to repurpose them.

Same thing with all of these marketing-driven data collection systems - once they've got a ton of data in them it is pretty much inevitable that someone is going trying and use them for something else. It is just too valuable for people to ignore.

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[Anonymous Coward]

I see aspects of this at my company often, because the people you annoy out of being customers are not accounted for. You don't know when someone doesn't buy something nececarily or when they would have bought something anyway. You only know they bought it through x ad.

Indeed, consider...

[raehl]

Consider all the effort it takes to design systems like this, to hire employees to use and maintain them, to purchase the equipment, to pay for data centers, etc.

The answer is, not much at all.

Computing power and disk are cheap. This isn't even a complex problem. The per-item costs of a system like this are probably on the order of hundredths of a cent.

You've already got to track all your products for inventory and revenue tracking purposes; attaching a "who bought this" token is a tiny addition once the rest of that is already in place.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

I call bullshit.

The marketing companies are delusional. These newly pregnant people have been plain old consumers and have been for years. Why would a pregnancy suddenly make them loyal to a specific store? Just because you bought diapers one time at Target does not mean that suddenly all of your shopping for ever and now on will cause you to automatically migrate to a Target store. I shop at Target, I also shop online, at Walmart, Sears etc.. I go there at random, because I am in the area, or I am familiar with something they have for a decent price and I want to get it again. Those variable are NOT set in stone and they change for me frequently. If I have a bad experience at a Target or they were out of something I specifically went to get, I may consciously or subconsciously not shop there as much for a few weeks or I may return later to get it or it may not bother me at all.
The power of marketing may be worth millions but I doubt their promises really pan out to those they are marketing for. Damn, remember the internet boom when all marketers thought that if they were the first ones to sell you a couch online, you would magically and blindly start buying all of your furniture and anything else they sold blindly and ignore all other stores? They completely missed the part where you can type in a different address in the address bar and go somewhere else. Not as simple with changing to a different brick and mortar but it's not that much harder to go somewhere else with that either.

If marketers really had this figured out and the marketing programs were the only reason we chose where and when we shopped, there would be exactly one of each type of business in the world. They fail to realize that the shopping experience, location, prices, cleanliness, store hours, proximity to other stores etc plays a much bigger role on getting the customer to go there more then other places than a temporary targeted (pun not intentional) discount on a few items you might be looking for.

Come here for your first baby item and we have a loyal customer for life. Really? Not quite.

No such thing.

[Anonymous Coward]

What a wonderful, mature, high-minded reason to bring a child into the world...

There's no such thing; their reason is as good as any. Pretty much everyone who brings a new person into this world does so for their own selfish reasons.

Historically, this was to ensure that there would be someone on Earth who felt obligated to you and would support you when you could no longer work for a living. In many poorer countries, this is still the primary driver. Among wealthier people, the most common goal is to have someone to whom you can indoctrinate with your beliefs and/or pass on your property.

Re:Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[PeanutButterBreath]

Manipulation of perception solely for selling luxury* items is one thing. And I'm opposed to that idea. OTOH, what Target, et al are doing here is anticipating what you will buy, regardless of where you might buy it from, and sending incentives to shop with them. Is this manipulating your perception? yes. If you lose the battle of will, does this have adverse effect on you? very likely not.

You argue as though Target is solely in the business of stocking things that you a) really need and b) will provide for those needs while providing you with the maximum value. Neither is true. This is about figuring out what pavlovian stimuli they can use to empty your bank account into theirs.

Re:Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[PeanutButterBreath]

On the other hand if you do not want the stuff then don't buy it. I would like it if a store sent me coupons for stuff that I want to buy. How do they do that and not send me coupons for stuff I don't want to buy? They data mine and try to figure out my purchase tendancies. So by data mining they are sending fewer useless coupons and more useful coupons. Sure they get it wrong sometimes. Just because I buy a lot of diapers does not mean that I have kids; it could mean that I am giving them to a single mothers' support group. Data mining is not an exact science it just reveales tendancies.

Advertisers are working as hard as they can to manipulate your "wants" to their advantage at the expense of a) their competitors but also b) your ability to control your spending habits.

Re:Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[Anonymous Coward]

Not quite. They want the maximum amount of your money for the least amount of their expense. That doesn't equal the least amount of value. Value is only relevant to a person/thing doing the valuing, and "you" and "they" may have quite different valuations for the items you buy. That's how trade actually works, after all.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[History's Coming To]

That's OK, don't worry. I get some psychedelic meringue things from the same sort of organisation, and I can't stand them. I think the sushi was a random false positive.

The ironic thing is that if I search for a company it's generally because they've screwed up and I need to find out how to fix it, so most of the ads I get are for companies I've already decided I'm not going to spend money with again (I'm looking at you EA). So my ads seem to be custom designed to be of no interest to me, which saves me quite a lot of time in glancing at them.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[DigiShaman]

And if you start getting leads on a divorce attorney in your area, you know you're really fucked now.

Big Brother

[Tom]

Big Brother, meet Really Insanely Huge Brother.

Seriously, if you have ever said one word against government surveilance, you should be out there in a protest march.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like TFA, two months ago gmail started serving me nothing but breast pump, neonatal vitamin, and baby bottle ads. I'm a guy, but I am married so maybe they're trying to send a hint "why don't you have kids yet? Here we'll give you discount mail-order vitamins if you get busy!" But they also send me dating site ads. So if they do know I'm married, they don't have a high opinion of my marriage! Maybe that's why they want me to knock my wife up? ;)

Google's ads are based on the email you are reading or other things on your screen. For example, I see ads for the delicious meat-like product Spam when I'm on the Spam page (then again, Google does have a sense of humor). So for a fun exercise, try to find out what it is in your email is triggering the ad you are receiving.

>>>>And send yourself emails from a different computer & account for "Jerkey-Flavored tampons" and "Silly Putty condoms". Good times.

[Reply] [Reply to all]

they want the stupid ones

[Charliemopps]

I think that, anyone here who has a kid knows that... if you're shopping at target for baby shit, you're an idiot. So it's safe to assume that Target is not only going after pregnant women... they're going after STUPID pregnant women.

Anyone with half a brain is buying diapers and wipes at the Cosco by the pallet if possible.

Their algorithm is likely:
Customer has been buying condoms weekly for a year... did not this week +10%
Customer bought 3 pints of icecream +5%
Customer used the restroom 4 times while they were in the store +40%
(we're thinking she's carrying the payload sir....)
Customer just bought Season 3 of "Jearsy Shore"!!!!
JACKPOT! Launch the ad campaign private! GO! GO! GO!

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Statistics are a bitch. It doesn't have to be at the cashier. The serial number can be tracked at the FDIC member bank upon deposit. Even if the facilities aren't at the bank itself, it's FRNs are identified by institution so they can be tracked as they move further up stream.

The degrees of separation can be eliminated as noise over a long enough time period. If they know which serial numbers are being withdrawn by who at the ATM, and potentially even if not, given enough transactions the pattern will sift out of the noise.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[R3d M3rcury]

I have to wonder if there has even been a truly dedicated group of people who have set to track a person that they could audit cash.

Yes. But you need a tinfoil hat. :^D

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[Tom]

People often forget there client card at my super market (AH) and I happily lend them mine. Must give them some interesting stats.

Many years ago, at the Chaos Communications Camp in Berlin, I suggested that people trade their customer cards at random every once in a while, to mess up the profiling.

Unfortunately, back then the whole thing was only starting, and too few people had matching cards to make much of a difference. Maybe someone should re-launch that idea.

Re:Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[Tom]

Target or Walmart do not have any hostile intent. They just want to sell you stuff.

That's not violent, but it is hostile. They want to take advantage of me, to my detriment and their profit. Whatever term you put on it, I'd call it hostile (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hostile, definition 1c).

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "...some marketeers and statisticians got payed big bugs."

Well now, I couldn't think of a nicer compensation program for a better group of people!

Bullshit ban is bullshit...

[TapeCutter]

...it should also be made illegal....It's blatant co-opting of an individuals own faculties.

I believe your founding fathers would have supported Fox's right to bullshit. You are still the sole guardian of your own mental faculties, you are the only person who can decide what you believe and who you trust. Fortunately bullshit detection is not a genetic trait, it is a skill that can be taught. Self-skepticisim is an essential part of that skill, the simple fact that you recognise you're just as susceptible to bullshit as everyone else already gives you some degree of immunity to it, and it's certainly preferable to yet another war on a ubiquitous social problem that inevitably ends up attacking society rather than the problem.

In other words, read my sig.

Re:Bullshit ban is bullshit...

[voidphoenix]

+1 Insightful.

Stalking

[Anonymous Coward]

Why shouldn't this kind of activity be considered stalking? Maybe they don't physically pursue somebody but they sure are trying to see everything that a person does without their knowledge.

Re:Stalking

[ShooterNeo]

Because they are an anonymous corporate entity protected by armies of sharply dressed lawyers. Not some poorly dressed unattractive man.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[BitterOak]

That kind of link would only be possible under the following conditions; 1. You would have to purchase the exact same list every time you went there. A different list would create a instance of you car there but no identifying list. 2. Noone else could purchase exactly the same list of items; An instance of the list being purchased without you car being there. At best there could be a probable link.

The other issue is that there are hundreds of different lists purchased every day and hundreds of different cars parked in the lot ever day which creates a huge mamy to many relationship. Trying to link lists to cars is almot impossible.

Who is to say you even went into the store as many Targets are in malls.

I think you are forgetting about in-store security cameras and face recognition software. They don't even have to match your face to a database. They only need to match the face captured on the parking lot cam along side your license plate to the face of the customer at the cash register.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's Facebook?

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[arose]

Brand recognition is also about trust.

Re:Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't send you coupons for stuff you want to buy, they send it for stuff they want you to buy.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[nprz]

Oh, like profiling for a crime?
They could look at past criminals and their spending histories, and look at all other people with similar ones and correlate all the other uncaught criminals. /me goes back to watching Minority Report.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ultimately, it would be easy to get freaked out by all this, but let's remember what this information is used for: to send you coupons you'd actually want to use. That's the whole thing. Dial back the paranoia a bit.

For 30 years of my life I've never really paid attention to coupons. Having been out of a job for a few months I've decided to take a look and see if they can actually save me enough to be worth the effort. I've discovered something disconcerting. Not a small number of "coupons" are advertisements for the normal price of an item. They're mixed in with the other coupons. "Buy product X for $2.99!" But $2.99 is the normal price. The manipulation of marketing is everywhere. I think paranoia is fully justified. Yes, they really are out to get you and your money.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because the majority of the adult female population wears clothing that would have been in the maternity wear section thirty years ago. It's "average size" nowadays...

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[chrismcb]

Once they've collected all this data and made all these cross-references there isn't anything preventing the data from being used for other reasons.

You make it sound like they haven't yet collected the data. Can the data be used for other things? Sure. Google predicts Flu outbreaks. Hari Seldon figured out how to rule the world for the next millennial.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[chrismcb]

where it really gets creepy is their study of children in order to manipulate the spending of parents

How is that creepy?

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[chrismcb]

OK guys, raise your hands - how many have gotten 'feminine products' adverts?

Uhh... Dude... I don't know what kind of web sites YOU visit, but...

It is a statistical model. It isn't 100% accurate. But it is more accurate than it is wrong. And it is better than sending the 'feminine products' adverts to EVERYONE.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Facebook lets you guarantee the demographic you're trying to hit, which is a key point. You don't need to do all the analytics because people tell you themselves. Look at the major advertising metrics: age, gender and interests. All of these are readily available on Facebook because people generally don't lie about them, even people with otherwise locked down accounts tend to give the correct gender (and of course everything you look at within the site gets tracked). There are people, like myself, who don't bother with Like-ing things, but we're in the vast minority.

This is before you start doing proper data mining with Facebook's little tendrils on other websites and textual analysis on people's posts/messages and friendship groups.

Cute story...

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad it's total bullshit.

The manager of a Target store has no power over who gets what ads, that's from corporate.

Also, even if he did, there's no reason the manager would call back. How'd he get the phone number again?

Like I said, the story is cute, but almost certainly came from Reader's Digest, NOT real life.

Sorry to shit all over your parade.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[zippthorne]

But you feel safe entering in your gmail password anyway?

Re:Faulty analogy: Lack of hostile intent

[jklovanc]

You inability to resist manipulation is your problem and not the advertisers. Take responsibility for your actions and stop whining "they made me buy it". As with every purchase everyone should ask themselves "do I need this?" If the answer is no then don't buy it. It is your choice.

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[Anonymous Coward]

You could've stopped at the second line. Your assumption that particular cases matter is all wrong.
They don't care about flukes, wrong data, etc. It's not whether YOU used the coupons or whatever. It's the whatever-percentage-they-did-get-right that matters.
Because with 0 info or wrong info, the ads would just be another ad (aka business as usual). But whoever IS a hit, that's where the money is.

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[Anonymous Coward]

I've felt the same way about TV ever since I was a child. It's not that I don't like the shows/movies aired, it's that 25% of the time you are watching TV, your watching advertising. That's not a made up number, look up the running time of your TV shows, divide it against the time allotted on the channel schedule.

It started to sicken me during the turn of the century, the sheer amount of pop-up adverts and embedded banner adverts that appeared when the internet started to become as common as cable/satellite TV service. I still remember visiting the various blacklisting sites (primarily easylist), downloading the newest host file every week just to keep up with the advertisements. Thankfully now there is adblock, spybot, and the like to make it easier.

But now we're facing a new tech that's maturing well enough to become easy to use. It's software that when video/image is ran through it, identifies walls, shirts, pants, and pretty much any surface uniform enough to store an advertisement. The same software allows just dragging and dropping what you want onto those surfaces, or automating that by providing it a list to cycle through. This does not bode well, it's enough to drive any sane person omish.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it odd that parents will authorize a credit card for their Special Snowflake (only way she legally gets one if she's under 18) and then never insist on knowing what they're paying for.

Purchase of pregnancy test, followed by drop in tampon purchases...what could that possibly mean?

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

the desire to treat my private life like your personal marketing brochure without even showing me the basic respect of asking for my permission strongly disinclines me to do business with you.

Normal people *like* getting coupons for stuff they're going to buy anyway. And while they're buying that stuff, they're going to buy other stuff with higher markups (to save time by getting it all in one place, off your endcaps on impulse, etc). So yes, it is truly profitable.

Re:That is why I frequently and easily lend out my

[Registered Coward v2]

Target profiles its EXISTING customers to be able to bombard them with coupons for products these same customers already pass everyday... Can win these customers for live? YOU ALREADY GOT THEM! And now instead of them buying the products they already seen at full price, you are reducing the price for no good reason.

While Target does wind up selling some things at a discount, they're probably not simply discounting all of the things they already buy but a selected subset. If they're smart, they discount a few low margin items that are typically bought along with other, higher margin items; hoping when you come in you'll also buy those items. The coupon is designed to get you back into the store to start the buying process; with the discount the lure.

This is nothing new. I had a friend that used to manage a McDonald's when he was a college student. He had free burger or fries coupons to give out, generally as a 'we're sorry for the problem, here's a freebie to make it up to you" thing. Why burgers or fires - because virtually all customer who got a coupon wound up buying a drink and also a burger or fries (depending on the coupon) - but the drink's margin covered the freebie so it was a net money maker for them and made the customer more loyal. As a side note, he ate a lot of free burgers and fries (when not working) while putting himself through college.

This Target campaign targets existing customers into buy stuff they have to buy anyway and ignores new customers altogether... BRILLIANT. I know how effective it is, some marketeers and statisticians got payed big bugs. Mission accomplished. Any actual new customers that make up for the costs and potential lawsuits? (Oh you just wait till they get it wrong or target a woman who had an abortion, or didn't want her family to know or had a miscarriage).

Per the summary (TFA is behind NYT wall) one goal is to turn the casual shopper into a long term customer. If they walk through your door chances are they fit your customer profile - this helps keep bringing them back. In essence, they're targeting a pre-selected audience that is already disposed to shopping with Target. Mass marketing to selected demographics builds awareness an this builds loyalty.

As for lawsuits, as long as they follow laws regarding how info is collected and used, they should be pretty safe from losing them. I would venture to guess, in the US, their customer data would be considered theirs and not require consent to use.

Wal-Mart appears to take this a step further with Wal-Mart branded pre-paid VISA (or is th MC) cards - not only do they get your float, they get to build a very detailed database of buying habits at Wal-Mart and elsewhere.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Registered Coward v2]

Soo... how much more competitive would their prices be, if they didn't spend money on these kinds of systems and marketing and customer tracking, and just accepted that there's nothing wrong with people buying what they want, when they decide they want it? Think they could undercut (or nearly undercut) Wal-mart while providing a more pleasant shopping experience (which wouldn't be hard)?

No one undercuts Wal-Mart - once they've established themselves in an area they pretty much price at the prevalent local pricing - and simply make more profit because of their logistics superiority. Start a price war and they'll happily drop prices so low that you lose money and they simply make a little less until you give up or go out of business. Just ask K-mart. There's a reason target is targeting a more upscale consumer than Wal-Mart - they have no desire to try to compete with Wal-Mart on their turf.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[a2wflc]

Coke doesn't know if you personal bought a coke based on an ad. But the way they work with test/control markets they can say with a high degree of accuracy that ad A increases sales by X% and ad B increases sales by Y%. I thought marketing was stupid before I got into the business (IT in marketing at a company similar to coke). After a decade I think consumers are easily manipulated.

Also, they may know if you personally are likely to buy a coke after seeing an ad - that's what the coke bottle cap numbers, or McDonald's monopoly pieces and other games where you enter a code on line are for. They know what online ads people saw recently and how that correlates to them entering bottle cap numbers. It may not work for you personally if you clear cookies or block ads, but it works. And it's not all bad for the consumer. My company is looking at how other companies run "loyalty programs". Customers who purchase more (or enter more numbers online) receive more or higher value coupons, cheaper shipping, early access to new products, better customer support and other things they aren't even aware of - in addition to being able to use their points to purchase something like a coffee mug with a coke logo.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Patch86]

Seeing the ads is only half the story. It's the data they're collecting on you that's really valuable. I mean, obviously you need to "see" an ad eventually for it to be worth their while. But maybe a company will use your Facebook data to send you junk email, or even junk snail mail to your house. Or perhaps a company like Amazon will buy it and use it to populate their "recommended for you" section.

ABP is nice because it stops websites being populate with gaudy ads. But it does diddly nothing to protect your privacy. The only way to do that is to not use Facebook.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Patch86]

I'd be surprised if they don't do this already. I imagine if you walk into your local hardware shop and buy the ingredients for a bomb (fertilizer, some electrical components, sack of ball-bearings, etc.), I suspect a little computer in Secret Service HQ will start to beep, and an unmarked van will take to parking on your street corner for the next few weeks.

Re: Credit Card #

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think brick and mortars are allowed to store CC#s at all.

You haven't tried to return (or even exchange, which is what I was doing) something at Target without a receipt lately, have you? If you give them your CC they will look it up for you...

(lovely that this site tries to goad you into registering by calling you an anonymous coward if you don't sign in - kind of ironic in a thread about big brother data mining, like slashdot isn't a company and they don't already have my IP address and haven't already dropped a cookie into my browser)

Not that hard to figure out the criteria.

[madhi19]

I can come up with a few starting with the most obvious, women between 15 to 55 who buy all their Meds from target pharmacy's but no longer buy birth control product. They likely also look for things that women who have become pregnant either start buying or stop buying like tampon, larger and looser cloths... This is the danger of all those big database that the digital age created they know more about you than you do about yourself.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[madhi19]

That not a bad question. If you got enough data to predict that kind of event in a person life chances are she already a pretty good client of your business and will buy all that shit from you anyway. Off course that where buying and or trading data with somebody else come in.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[crutchy]

I saw a documentary once where they invited a bunch of preteen girls to a "slumber party" that was videotaped. i don't know why the parents would have allowed such a thing, but I guess money talks. they gave the kids a selection of products and they studied how they played with and used them so that they could incorporate the features that the kids liked best into other products. its not the research that's creepy, its that they are using children in that way.

also, those supermarket tantrums... they are studied to find out what triggers them and how to trigger them again

there was more, including what goes on in schools in America. I can't remember what the doco was called, but it was on Australia's ABC channel over a year ago. i remember (as a parent of a baby girl and a toddler boy) being a little freaked out

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[MaskedSlacker]

I had this exact reaction.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[MaskedSlacker]

You sound like a real internet toughguy.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[onepoint]

Happen to agree with you on some of this... let me see, whom I could sell the data to ...

out side the box :
a) insurance firms, the father of the girl whom is preggo might want to get his daughter healthcare.
b) Publishing companies that target weddings ( Dad might want to get his shotgun and the boy to the alter )
c) fitness type sales ( maybe even publishing companies that target it )
d) car companies : they might want to sell a 'safe' car or a roomy car.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Note this isn't the 'private mode', it's a separate feature that blocks content that shows up in multiple places, which is usually ads and sundry crap. You'll have to allow jquery and such.

http://lifehacker.com/5213300/internet-explorer-8s-inprivate-feature-is-a-competent-ad-blocker

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Note this isn't the 'private mode', it's a separate feature that blocks content that shows up in multiple places, which is usually ads and sundry crap. You'll have to allow jquery and such.

http://lifehacker.com/5213300/internet-explorer-8s-inprivate-feature-is-a-competent-ad-blocker

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[Ezel]

How the hell does one wear out a yoga mat?

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[causality]

Did you suppose that a teenager who hasn't even graduated high school yet is in a good position to take on the full responsibility of parenting? Have you seen the statistics for children (especially boys) who are raised by such people?

Do you think that's the ideal environment for the child?

Or do you think she just wanted to get her rocks off and didn't consider pregnancy? Oh, and a responsible father would think of these things even if the mother didn't. This isn't a responsible father. This is a horny teenager who wanted to get his rocks off too. It's so bleedin' obvious, it's as though none of you were ever in high school...

Other than this phony sense of "I'm offended by your certainty!" there is no good reason I should have to explain this. If you really, really love your children, then you prepare as best as you can to provide them a quality upbringing. This person could do better, if only it were important enough to her.

Re:Am I the first to call BS?

[praxis]

Did you suppose that a teenager who hasn't even graduated high school yet is in a good position to take on the full responsibility of parenting?

That depends on the person. While you are perfectly fine making assumptions about this particular individual, I ask you to consider that perhaps you don't know this individual and not everyone conforms to your generalizations. I knew women in my high school that were perfectly capable in raising children, but I also recognize that it's not the norm.

Have you seen the statistics for children (especially boys) who are raised by such people?

It's not clear to me who you mean by 'such people'. Do you mean fathers that would do what the father in the anecdote did? Do you mean people like me that recognize that not everyone conforms to my worldview and it's sort of arrogant to assume everyone does? Remember, you don't know this girl like you might know your daughter(s), if any.

Do you think that's the ideal environment for the child?

That would depend on the child.

Or do you think she just wanted to get her rocks off and didn't consider pregnancy?

I don't know her and I'm not comfortable assuming I know her motivations due to statistics. That gets into really scary territory.

Oh, and a responsible father would think of these things even if the mother didn't. This isn't a responsible father. This is a horny teenager who wanted to get his rocks off too. It's so bleedin' obvious, it's as though none of you were ever in high school...

You are saying that her father is a horny teenager?! I don't understand that logic, sorry. I've been to high school and there were all sorts of people there, from the irresponsible horny teenager to the multi-millionaire self-made business-women at 17.

Other than this phony sense of "I'm offended by your certainty!" there is no good reason I should have to explain this.

I am offended by your certainty because that's the kind of reasoning that says "well, she's Asian, she's 17, she lives in Burbank, she drives a BMW, hence she is X, Y, and Z for certain because statistically that's most likely". Let people be themselves, not a statistic.

If you really, really love your children, then you prepare as best as you can to provide them a quality upbringing. This person could do better, if only it were important enough to her.

I don't have any children.