Slashdot Mirror


MIT Lecturer Defends His Standing As Email Inventor

hapworth writes "IT professionals were recently outraged to hear that the Smithsonian acquired some code from MIT lecturer VA Shiva Ayyadurai who has convinced no less august pubs than Time Magazine and The Washington Post that he invented email. While objectors howl on forums and message boards, VA Shiva Ayyadurai spoke up today to defend his standing as email's creator, claiming he doesn't regret not patenting it because he doesn't believe in software patents."

53 of 249 comments (clear)

  1. Maybe... by pedantic+bore · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... but Ray Tomlinson at BBN invented the use of the "@" sign.

    --
    Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
    1. Re:Maybe... by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Funny

      ... but Ray Tomlinson at BBN invented the use of the "@" sign.

      Yeah, but Chuck Norris was the first one to use it.

      oh, and ..

      In Soviet Russia email patents YOU!

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    2. Re:Maybe... by iggymanz · · Score: 4, Informative

      and Ray used it to send e-mail between different machines in 1971 on the ARPANET. How this 1978 guy's claim has any legs I don't get.

    3. Re:Maybe... by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      and Ray used it to send e-mail between different machines in 1971 on the ARPANET. How this 1978 guy's claim has any legs I don't get

      There are a lot of things claimed by a lot of people but it does NOT mean they are the actual inventors.

      As far as I can recall, I've been using "emails" since 1975

      If that 1978 guy wants to claim that he invented "email", let him claim

      Those of us who know better, know better

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    4. Re:Maybe... by forkfail · · Score: 4, Funny

      Only after Bruce Lee showed him how. Twice.

      --
      Check your premises.
    5. Re:Maybe... by smitty97 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      doesn't anyone remember bang paths?

      --
      mod me funny
    6. Re:Maybe... by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He claims that he created a program called "email", and he says, it was the first. Well, except for the fact that the Unix mail program dates from '72. And that there are RFCs for protocols referring to electronic mail way before that. If we want to be strict about it, email probably started with the telegraph.

      This guy is an idiot looking for attention.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    7. Re:Maybe... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Just your mother

    8. Re:Maybe... by Xtifr · · Score: 4, Funny

      Wow, you've sure got a lot of digits in your slashdot ID for someone who once had a bang path! :) ...!apple!darkside!xtifr

    9. Re:Maybe... by jhoegl · · Score: 4, Funny

      Judge not by the size of ones slashID, for they may have been too busy inventing the interwebs to know about such sites as slashdot.

    10. Re:Maybe... by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The To:, CC, BCC and subject lines all date back to the early 1970s. He didn't invent any of it. RFC680, from 1975, states all of these.

      The guy is a lying sack of shit.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    11. Re:Maybe... by DMFNR · · Score: 4, Funny

      You are wrong. One's Slashdot UID is the sole determiner of technical proficiency, age, penis size, and validity of opinion, .

      For example, I have mastered HTML and gaining proficiency in Visual Basic 6. I am 12 years old and my penis is large enough not to be considered a micropenis by only a few millimeters. Of course, at my level of Slashdot inexperience, my words should be taken with a grain of salt.

      A person like Xtifr however, he received a blowjob for Ada Lovelace and can speak machine code in to a processor and hear the results coming out of the other end. He is older than most trees, and has the Unix beard to prove it. If he ever manages to get his elderly penis erect, we have solved our space elevator problem. Every word he speaks is handed down to Moses on stone tablets and entered in to Slashdot with care.

    12. Re:Maybe... by avm · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Nonsense :-) I drive a truck, have forgotten most of my IT related knowledge, and my UID is lower than his. I also have no beard, use a Mac, and have never managed to monetize any IT chops I may have once possessed.

      In my defense, I do possess an original boxed set of SCO Xenix manpages and 3.5" diskettes, as well as a copy of the original Softlanding Linux distro on same media. :-)

    13. Re:Maybe... by bratwiz · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes, he is the Most Interesting Programmer in the World.

      "Friends, I don't always use parametric polymorphism, but when I do, I prefer hand-rolled Assembly."

    14. Re:Maybe... by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Informative

      doesn't anyone remember bang paths?

      What a nightmare. Like posting a letter and having to tell the post office what to do with it: "Take it from the postbox to the Bradford sorting office centre. From the Bradford sorting office take it to the Leeds regional centre. From the Leeds Regional centre send it to the London Regional centre. From the London regional centre take it to the Sunbury sorting office. Take it from the Sunbury sorting office to 12 bog-trotter terrace".

      And to think we actually used that!

    15. Re:Maybe... by s.petry · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What you mention really is the problem with the IP Patent system as a whole.

      Numerous people were inventing things simultaneously back in the day. It was primarily MIT, Berkley, AT&T and a mixture of the Government funded DARPA project and people developing tools to help them do their jobs.

      Many of these things on the internet people lay claim to are really copies of what we already had in a physical format. Email came out as the equivalent of the "Mail Room", and "Mail Clerks". UUCP and FTP which came out as the "Courier Services" to get data back and forth. HTTP/HTML, and much more came out as primarily the bulletin board.

      Over time, we had to add security and could add niceties. We also had numerous flavors of each utility since people had different ways of solving problems and saw different challenges and risks. Lots of these ended up merged, and many just vanished because a different product was better.

      Early on, there were no concerns about patents. Back then, it was copyright rules only. Everyone working on projects knew that what they did was for the betterment of the whole. Patents would have hindered or stopped development. I don't think the Government would have allowed a patent even if it was pushed.

      To this day, technical people developing services and software generally despise IP patents. It harms the business and kills growth and improvements. It's only the lawyers and money grubbers that like them.

      Do I expect to be able to Copyright and enforce the Copyright on my code, Icons, images, etc..? Absolutely. Do I expect to own the ideas I develop? Hell no. If you can do what I do, go right ahead. I hope you do it better, so that I'm challenged to improve myself.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  2. Doesn't believe in patents by Squiddie · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If only the rest of the world saw it his way. If he did invent email, that is.

    1. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Which he didn't. The ancestor of the mail systems used on the Internet today was the mail command from the original versions of Unix, way back around 1971 or so. This guy is either a lunatic or a liar, but the one thing he isn't is the inventor of email.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh yes, he sure did. In 1982. When every computer on the network already had networked mail services. Electronic mail was invented before this clown was even born. Let the burning at the stake proceed forthwith.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    3. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by the+linux+geek · · Score: 5, Interesting

      CTSS had email before UNIX did - 1964, if I recall.

    4. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Dude, you're talking about the mail command versus email -- E mail! Don't you know that if you take something that already exists and put an e or an i in front of it, it's completely new computer wizardry? The entire USPTO is based around this concept. Anyone with a UID of fewer than seven figures should know this stuff.

    5. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Informative

      I was referring to Unix-style email, which is the granddaddy of most the email passed around today. By 1973 there was RFC 561, which was, so far as I'm aware the first description of a proper ARPANET text message.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      iAgree

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    7. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by tysonedwards · · Score: 5, Interesting

      From TFA: VA Shiva Ayyadurai claims is to have created the first "graphical front end for an electronic mail system", and was the first to copyright the term "EMAIL".

      It is the craziness of the mass media that translates a copyright filing as "Invention".

      --
      Thirty four characters live here.
    8. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually it mentions the 1978 DEC marketing message (a fairly well-known event) in line with an earlier 1971 war protest message. The 1978 date was the first commercial spam. I guess we might use a different term for it today, but it was definitely unsolicited.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    9. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by Gr8Apes · · Score: 3, Informative

      From TFA: VA Shiva Ayyadurai claims is to have created the first "graphical front end for an electronic mail system",

      Which is still wrong. Even the piece about the "To:" and the use of user'@'host which existed in RFC469 around 74, reaffirmed in RFC498, and the Mail Transfer Protocol RFC772 dated 1980 which kicked off the the modern internet version of SMTP, none of which include VA Shiva's name, btw. I suppose all the programs that were running at that time that generated the need for those RFCs had no "graphical front end" for the electronic mail that they were serving?

      and was the first to copyright the term "EMAIL". It is the craziness of the mass media that translates a copyright filing as "Invention".

      Now that one I can believe, but whether it's a legitimate copyright is a different thing. Knowing the military's proclivity to abbreviate, I wouldn't be surprised if e-mail and email, as well as EML and all caps forms in various ARPANET related documentation, already existed long before VA Shiva came along to "claim" the copyright. (Copyright is automatically granted, and as far as I know you can't copyright a word, you can Trademark it though.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    10. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by PatPending · · Score: 4, Informative

      His name is on three separate patents; are these "software patents?" (Presumably he has had a change of mind.)

      6,718,368 System and method for content-sensitive automatic reply message generation for text-based asynchronous communications

      6,718,367 Filter for modeling system and method for handling and routing of text-based asynchronous communications

      6,668,281 Relationship management system and method using asynchronous electronic messaging

      Source: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=0&p=1&f=S&l=50&Query=in%2FShiva+and+in%2FAyyadurai+&d=PTXT>

      --
      What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
    11. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by PCM2 · · Score: 3, Informative

      ...for the record, what he did appear to contribute (or at least copyright) was the word 'EMAIL', although 'electronic mail' existed as early as 1965.

      This claim in itself is fishy. You can't copyright "terms." That's not what copyright is for. Copyright is for individual works. He could have copyrighted his source code (in fact it was automatically copyrighted as soon as he wrote it), but there's no way he could claim ownership of a "term" other than by trademarking it. Some bad reporting happened somewhere along the line, here, and now it's getting regurgitated all over the Interwebs.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    12. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by larry+bagina · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The first GUI email claim seems a little questionable to me. The Xerox Alto (1973) had a GUI, WYSIWYG, mice, ethernet, and email (Laurel and Hardy). I can't find a date reference for Laurel and Hardy, but Steve Jobs visited them in December of 1979 and later said:

      And they showed me really three things. But I was so blinded by the first one I didn't even really see the other two. One of the things they showed me was object orienting programming they showed me that but I didn't even see that. The other one they showed me was a networked computer system...they had over a hundred Alto computers all networked using email etc., etc., I didn't even see that. I was so blinded by the first thing they showed me which was the graphical user interface. I thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen in my life. Now remember it was very flawed, what we saw was incomplete, they'd done a bunch of things wrong. But we didn't know that at the time but still though they had the germ of the idea was there and they'd done it very well and within you know ten minutes it was obvious to me that all computers would work like this some day.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    13. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by greg1104 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I find it amusing that the incomplete 1971 ancestor to RFC561, RFC196 "A Mail Box Protocol", already includes the concept that instead of a full mail program you might just telnet somewhere and speak the mail protocol to that.

    14. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by PCM2 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Here's Popular Science from September 1980, though unfortunately they don't call it "email" -- they abbreviate it "EM."

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    15. Re:Doesn't believe in patents by WhitetailKitten · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He's sticking to the technical, narrowly-focused truth, but using words that to someone not looking for pedantic technicalities would interpret broadly (and falsely).

      VA: Here is my source code for the program I've written, "EMAIL." I'm registering copyright on it.
      News: VA, inventor of "EMAIL," blah blah today blah blah.
      John Q. Public: Huh, this guy invented email. I thought [AOL|Hotmail|their ISP|Google|Microsoft Outlook] invented email."
      Slashdot crowd: WHARRRRRRGAAARRBBLL

  3. Patents... by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'd love to test our Social Networking application we ran in college, long before this interweb thing came along, against some of the patents people are claiming now.

    As for email, I've got junk from my Dad's Model 14 Teletype, with headers and all, which could certainly pass for early email. Back then it was passed between stations until intended recipient was expected to have received it - your TTY was always expected to be left on.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  4. Uh, 1980? by leighklotz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I got to MIT in 1979 email had been in use for a long time. Both " at " and "@" were in equal use on ITS to send mail over ARPAnet via NCP. I'm not sure what this guy is claiming about having invented email in 1980.

    1. Re:Uh, 1980? by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      According to Time, he's also the King of Mars and Jennifer Aniston's husband. Not a bad life.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  5. Good point. by khasim · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Many DIFFERENT items go into a modern email system.

    Tomlinson "invented" the practice of using the @ sign.

    Ayyadurai may have been the first person to use the term "email".
    But there is no evidence that he invented the concept of electronic messages between people.

    1. Re:Good point. by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Even if he is the first to use the term "email" (which I don't believe), electronic mail messages that even a modern email user would recognize had been in use for the better part of seven years by 1978. The guy is a liar, and he's trying to cover it up with clever semantics games. One can trace the evolution of modern email systems with trivial ease from the Unix version 1 mail command through the RFCs detailing out header formats, message body encoding, UUCP and SMTP transmission protocols right up to RFC2822 in 2001. I don't see this asshat's name on any of the RFCs or as an author of any of the mail variants. He's a liar, or nuts. In either case, if I was MIT, I'd be looking at giving this moron his walking papers.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Good point. by greg1104 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Ayyadurai may have been the first person to use the term "email".

      Nope; that was probably BBN Mercury in 1965. Every important component to e-mail can be found by that year; that page even specifically debunks this bozo at the top. Like a lot of things, the minute electronic mail became feasible to build, e-mail was built by multiple people. All the requirements were in place the minute a community of people on time-shared computers existed. The number of independent creations of the same thing during a short time period show it was really an obvious next step the minute two people could use the same computer.

    3. Re:Good point. by greg1104 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Wow, this self-important wanker even has inventorofemail.com. The Boston interview seems to state his weak-ass case the best. When faced with Tomlinson's 1971 record, he says that isn't really e-mail. Apparently he thinks that some subset of having folders or blind carbon copy are somehow amazing innovations, the things that made his work modern e-mail while earlier ones were not. Whatever.

    4. Re:Good point. by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Informative

      BCC was present in RFC680, from 1975. The Unix V6 mail program didn't explicitly have mail folders, but from what I can tell of the man page for the Unix V6 mail command ( http://man.cat-v.org/unix-6th/1/mail ), the notion that mail could stored somewhere other than the .mail file in the home directory did exist in 1975. The Unix V7 mail command (you can find its man page at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/v7vol1.pdf on page 112) most certainly does support saving mail to multiple mailbox files (and what is an mbox file but a bloody folder, which is essentially what Thunderbird still uses with an additional index file). It's that basic multiple mbox structure that programs like Elm and Pine would ultimately build on top of. MH that appears to be from around 1979 also handles multiple mail folders.

      So no, the guy didn't invent bcc or multiple mail folders either. He didn't invent the first GUI mail system, which was probably Xerox's Laurel.

      The guy is a liar.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re:Good point. by Rary · · Score: 5, Informative

      He is playing a ridiculous semantic game. If you look at his website, he never claims to have invented "email". He claims only to have invented "EMAIL", which is technically correct, in that he did create a program called "EMAIL". He even goes so far as to admit that the word "email" was in use previously, but that he was the first to use the word "EMAIL".

      He's a tool, and his website makes it obvious.

      --

      "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein

    6. Re:Good point. by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      He's been corrected plenty enough, and he still seems to be shamelessly shilling. When exactly does ignorance become dishonesty?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    7. Re:Good point. by dbIII · · Score: 3, Funny

      He even goes so far as to admit that the word "email" was in use previously

      Yes, I had a fridge (and stove) with EMAIL written on it in big chromed letters in the 1970s. Maybe that's where the "internet fridge" meme came from :)

  6. This is silly. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What is email? It isn't a protocol - you can send it over many, many protocols. It is a concept: The very idea of sending a text message by electronic means to be stored somewhere the recipient may access it for a non-realtime conversation. What is that, really? It's the telegraph. Computers made it much faster, cheaper and more accessible, but the real core of the idea is as old as the telegraph.

    1. Re:This is silly. by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Informative

      Quite right. There are a number of different formats. But the most widely used one is based on RFC561 all the way back in 1973 (though I imagine it only formalized what guys like Ray Tomlinson had already been doing for a couple of years). Both UUCP and SMTP were built specifically with this basic format in mind, since by the time they were developed, it had been in use for years.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  7. More details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_Ayyadurai#Email_claims

    1) He did not invent it.
    2) He did copyright the term "EMAIL" in 1982.
    3) But he doesn't believe in software patents.

    Now he is trying to twist his "copyright on "EMAIL"" into "Invention of EMAIL" with nothing more than his own words.

    Wake me up when Dennis Ritchie returns to whoop his undeserving ass...

    1. Re:More details by almitydave · · Score: 4, Informative

      According to the Wikipedia article linked above, he copyrighted his email program which was called "EMAIL". So the copyright is on the software, not the term, which as numerous people here have mentioned is not eligible for copyright.

      --
      my, your, his/her/its, our, your, their
      I'm, you're, he's/she's/it's, we're, you're, they're
  8. AUTODIN by nsaspook · · Score: 3, Interesting

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Digital_Network
    http://jproc.ca/crypto/autodin.html

    I managed a few Technical Control sites long ago. We could route normal telegrams on the system with a little creative address routing.

    --
    In GOD we trust, all others we monitor.
  9. Re:A fake pumping himself up by elo_sf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He seems to be using a variant of the "big lie" wrapping some pieces of truth in the bigger lie. He does appear to have a valid copyright registration for a computer program entitled "EMAIL." from 1982. He's then taking advantage of the mainstream press' unfamiliarity with copyrights vs trademarks vs patents AND their unfamiliarity with software technology--or even willingness to read something as basic as the wikipedia entry for email to realize that 1982 was late to the party and at best the guy did develop a neat computer program at a young age, but certainly is in no way is the inventor of email as a technology. Shame on the media as much as on him.

  10. Electronic Mail described in 1957 by TheSync · · Score: 4, Informative

    This NYTArticle from April 28, 1957 says:

    Mail Sped by Electronics Predicted by Summerfield; One-Day Delivery Sought Between Any 2 Cities --Many 'Ifs' in Plan ELECTRONIC MAIL SEEN IN A DECADE Senate to Study Bill Full Report Planned 'Pattern' for Country Fire From Two Sides Question of 'Intangibles'

    WASHINGTON, April 27--The Post Office Department envisions a five-to-ten-year transition to the electronic age...

  11. Shiva Ayyadurai by rlk · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As it happens, I actually knew Shiva in high school (I was one year behind him in Livingston -- class of 1982; he was class of 1981). We lived about 1/4 mile apart, and took the same bus to and from school. We were both science/math geeks.

    I do remember (not the details) the project he's talking about. We discussed it on the bus. He did indeed submit it to the Westinghouse Talent Search, and as I recall he got past the first round. It certainly was an interesting project for the time, and my recollection is that he designed it very well and he well deserved to advance. I don't know one way or the other whether he came up with it independently, but he most certainly didn't invent email.

    It has been well over a decade since I last saw him.

  12. Inventor of "EMAIL(TM)", not of e-mail by Guy+Harris · · Score: 3, Informative

    As he says on his Web site, he's the "inventor of EMAIL".

    He does not, however, say he's the inventor of email or e-mail or electronic mail, so I guess he means he's the inventor of a system named "EMAIL". the copyright he got was for a "COMPUTER PROGRAM FOR Electronic Mail System", which suggests that "EMAIL" was a program that implemented, err, umm, email.

    He als says "Every software system needs a User's Manual, so did the world's first E-MAIL system. At that time, Shiva was everything on the project: software engineer, network manager, project manager, architect, quality assurance AND technical writer.", so maybe "the world's first E-MAIL system" was the first system that "handled it all" - ARPANET e-mail involved different mail user agents and mail transfer agents on different operating systems, so there wasn't a single "COMPUTER PROGRAM FOR Electronic Mail System".

    Or not. A historical overview of the CTSS system, from its fiftieth anniversary, quotes Tom Van Vleck (also cited in another posting):

    Electronic Mail. Noel Morris and I wrote a command, suggested by Glenda Schroeder and Louis Pouzin, called MAIL, which allowed users to send text messages to each other; this was one of the earliest electronic mail facilities.[11] (I am told that the Q-32 system also had a MAIL command in 1965.)

    Reference 11 is to Van Vleck's The History of Electronic Mail (which mentions the copyrighting of "EMAIL" in a parenthetical note at the top of the page) and Errol Morris's New York Times Opinionator blog post "Did My Brother Invent E-Mail With Tom Van Vleck?" (my head asplode when I learned that Errol Morris was Noel Morris' brother).

    The news article he cites says he "created an electronic mail system", which may well be the case. It doesn't say he created the first electronic mail system, and "created an electronic mail system" suggests that the notion of an "electronic mail system" wasn't a Shiny New Idea (and, in fact, it wasn't).

    And, in fact, the article to which the "to defend his standing as email's creator" link takes you quotes him as saying "I did not claim that I created electronic communications," so at least give him credit for that.

  13. The real beginning of email by Animats · · Score: 3, Informative

    The real beginning of email, in the sense of fully automatic message switching, was "Western Union Plan 55-A", introduced in 1948 and shut down in 1976. Imagine Sendmail, with paper tape punches and readers with bins between them as the buffers. Such systems handled most telegrams in the US for over 25 years.

    There were message switching systems before that, but Plan 55-A was the first one that could forward a message from source to destination without human intervention at the switching points. It could even handle messages with multiple destination addresses.

    Before that, there were teletypewriter exchanges, but they involved dialing up a connection directly between sender and receiver. They were basically telephone switches repurposed for teletypes. That's what TWX and Telex were. Those were automatic dial back to the early 1930s.