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Big Data's Invisible Open Source Community

itwbennett writes "Hadoop, Hive, Lucene, and Solr are all open source projects, but if you were expecting the floors of the Strata Conference to be packed with intense, boostrapping hackers you'd be sorely disappointed. Instead, says Brian Proffitt, 'community' where Big Data is concerned is 'acknowledged as a corporate resource', something companies need to contribute back to. 'There is no sense of the grass-roots, hacker-dominated communities that were so much a part of the Linux community's DNA,' says Proffitt."

16 of 49 comments (clear)

  1. Sorry by discord5 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My basem^H^H^H^H^H hacker cave simply doesn't have any room for a storage array in the PB order.

    1. Re:Sorry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Parent poster nailed it.
      Try to get support from "the community" when you discover a bug in a code path that nobody except you encounters. Suddenly the community becomes very small indeed.
      There just aren't that many geeks out there who handle petabyte datasets. Prove me wrong, dear reader.

    2. Re:Sorry by martin-boundary · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Well, you really shouldn't be debugging code on petabyte datasets to begin with. If there's a bug that shows, there's a minimal dataset on which the bug shows, and that's the dataset you can ask help with.

      In general, you should always develop code on a tiny sample of the dataset. Once it's fully debugged and works correctly, then you apply it on your petabyte dataset.

    3. Re:Sorry by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      http://adequacy.org/stories/2001.10.2.33542.4010.html

      The Linux Fault Threshold is the point in any conversation about Linux at which your interlocutor stops talking about how your problem might be solved under Linux and starts talking about how it isn't Linux's fault that your problem cannot be solved under Linux. Half the time, the LFT is reached because there is genuinely no solution (or no solution has been developed yet), while half the time, the LFT is reached because your apologist has floundered way out of his depth in offering to help you and is bullshitting far beyond his actual knowledge base. In either case, a conversation which has reached the LFT has precisely zero chance of ever generating useful advice for you; it is safe at this point to start calling the person offering the advice a fucking moron, and basically take it from there. Here's an example taken from IRC logs to help you understand the concept.

      <jsm> Why won't my fucking Linux computer print?
      <linuxbabe> what printer r u using?
      <jsm> I don't know. It's a Hewlett Packard desktop inkjet number
      <linuxbabe> hewlett r lamers. they dont open source drivers <------LFT closely approached!
      <linuxbabe> but we reverse engineered them lol. check the web. or ask hewlett for linux suuport??<------ but avoided, he's still talking about the problem
      <jsm> Thanks. I already did that. But I can't install the drivers on my fucking computer. I've got a floppy disk from HP, but my floppy drive is a USB drive and Linux doesn't have fucking USB support.
      <linuxbabe> linux DOES have USB support!!!!!!
      <jsm> yeh for fucking infrared mice, and for about a thousand makes of webcam it does. Get real here. For my fucking floppy disk drive, I am telling you through bitter experience it does not. Even if someone has written the drivers in the last week
      <jsm> which I sincerely doubt, how the hell am I going to install them given that my floppy drive doesnt work?????
      <jsm> this ought to be in the kernel. what good is a fucking operating system that doesnt operate?
      <linuxbabe> Imacs dont have floppy drives at all <----- useless point, but not LFT. All apologists make pointless jabs at other OSs
      <linuxbabe> so you ought to be greateful that Linux does. drivers like that shouldn't be bundled in the kernel
      <linuxbabe> makes it into fucking M$ bloatware. bleh
      <linuxbabe> download drivers from the web!!!! apt-get is your friend
      <jsm> So everyone keeps telling me. Unfortunately the fucking modem doesn't work under Linux either, and since the Linux installation destroyed Windows, that leaves me kind of fucked.
      <linuxbabe> Linux doesnt destroy windows
      <jsm>mandrake installer does. It "resized" my Windows partition and now the fucker won't work
      <linuxbabe> you shuold have defragmented. windows scatters data all over your hard drive so the installer cant just find a clean chunk to install into. it isn't linux fault <---- distinct signs of LFT being approached
      <linuxbabe> that windoze disk management blows
      <jsm> so why doesn't my fucking modem work?
      <linuxbabe> what computer hav u got
      <jsm> A Sony Vaio PCG
      <linuxbabe> that doesn't have a modem
      <jsm> I assure you it fucking does. I used to use it to check my email back in the days when Windows worked.
      <linuxbabe> its got a winmodem. thats not a modem <----- nitpicking over technical terms is a sign of impending LFT
      <jsm> what do you mean?
      <linuxbabe> a winmodem isnt a proper modem. it just uses proprietary windoze apis. doesnt do the work of a modem at all.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    4. Re:Sorry by scheme · · Score: 2

      Well, you really shouldn't be debugging code on petabyte datasets to begin with. If there's a bug that shows, there's a minimal dataset on which the bug shows, and that's the dataset you can ask help with.

      In general, you should always develop code on a tiny sample of the dataset. Once it's fully debugged and works correctly, then you apply it on your petabyte dataset.

      Some bugs and issues don't show up until you get to a certain scale. Consider race conditions that only occur so often, unless you hit a certain scale you may never see it. To give a another pertinent example consider something that corrupts one byte in a PB (maybe it's a very infrequent condition or something), until your dataset grows to multiple PB, you may not even see it. Or consider the issue that occurs on raid arrays where you get a second drive failure when rebuilding an array after a drive has failed and been replaced. Until individual drives have enough data that rebuilding the array takes a significant amount of time, you'll probably never see this failure scenario and your code may not even be aware that this is something it needs to be able to handle.

      --
      "When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
    5. Re:Sorry by justforgetme · · Score: 2

      Well yes, that is primarily how you do it.

      Bigdata work is much more closer to academic research than it is to casual software development work. As is ML and the such.
      It is quite obvious that at higher stratas of specialization the specialists are less. Ask any, seriously involved in research, scientist
      where he finds community specialists to discuss various bugs. The fact is that they don't. They go around mostly asking for
      opinions and fix the bug themselves (which usually includes writing some documentation about it).

      The who article is stating the obvious: There are less specialists at the bleeding edge of research. Which is true in and of itself and
      is made worse by the fact that this research is done by huge proprietary enterprises.

      --
      -- no sig today
  2. So... I read the article... by bmo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And I have to ask...

    What was the point of the article? That the trade show is like every trade show ever?

    Really, I'll write a report the next time I go to EASTEC and whine about the lack of "Makers" (in the geek culture sense of the word) among the vendors of Big Machinery.

    --
    BMO

  3. Some open source advocates... by blahplusplus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... must face the fact that lots of code is boring to maintain and update. Not to mention unless you are independently wealthy contributing to open source is a drain one ones time and resources. No one should really be concerned that many corporations see value in open source, it's like seeing value in roads or sewers. There is much code that is just like roads and sewers that which would be hard to maintain on a volunteer basis.

  4. Scratching Itches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A big part of the grass-roots movement that Linux and other open-source projects benefit from comes about because hackers (in the good sense) contribute to software that they themselves want or need. There probably aren't many programmers that want (or can afford) to store and analyze petabytes of data in their free time. That's important to corporations, though, so I suspect that's why you see primarly corporate interests in open-source Big Data projects.

  5. So, in other words... by king+neckbeard · · Score: 2

    It's pretty much a purely open source community instead of a free software community.

    --
    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  6. A very simple explanation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "There is no sense of the grass-roots, hacker-dominated communities that were so much a part of the Linux community's DNA"

    This is for one simple reason: most hackers don't need "BigData".

    Perhaps if the typical hacker had a cluster of servers to play with, this would change. But as long as most hackers are bound to using a single personal computer, they're just not going to be very concerned with clusterware.

    They're also not concerned with plenty of other things that are essential to big corporations, like payroll software and CRM (customer relationship managment) software.

    1. Re:A very simple explanation by evilviper · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is for one simple reason: most hackers don't need "BigData".

      Perhaps if the typical hacker had a cluster of servers to play with, this would change.

      "Most hackers" don't need a lot of things that are, never-the-less developed as successful open source projects. Anybody think there's a huge audience for DReaM?

      Storage is getting big... Even a tiny shop can afford obscene amounts of storage. Each 2U server can have 6 x 2TB SATA (3.5") drives pretty inexpensively. As soon as you've got a dataset that needs more space than you can store on one of those, you'd benefit from thesee "big data" solutions, rather than the standby (more expensive) solution of "throw in a monster SAN".

      And you don't even need that much infrastructure. The virtual servers (cloud) service providers aren't very expensive, particularly when you don't care about SLA, and will give you as big of a cluster "to play with" as you could want.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    2. Re:A very simple explanation by scheme · · Score: 3, Insightful

      OTOH I'm sure hadoop and friends would be very useful for the LHC and other big science projects, but they have are mostly taxpayer funded and are fighting to keep the dollars they're getting, not looking for new ways to spend it.

      HDFS is already used by CMS (one of the detectors at the LHC) to store and manage distributed filesystems at various regional centers. After all, when you are generating multiple petabytes each year and need to process it and keep various subsets of it around for analysis by various groups, you need filesystems that can handle multiple PB of files. And yes, I believe patches are being fed upstream as necessary. Other filesystems being used in the US include lustre, dcache, and xrootdfs.

      Although funding is an issue, continuing to run and analyze data from the LHC means that money needs to be spent to buy more storage and servers as needed and to pay people to develop and maintain the systems needed to distribute and analyze all the data being generated . Having multiple PB of particle collision data is useless if you can't analyze it and look for interesting events.

      --
      "When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
  7. overflow and "working correctly" by ChipMonk · · Score: 2

    If it isn't working correctly on a petabyte dataset, then it isn't "working correctly", period, no matter how well-hidden the bugs are with gigabyte and terabyte datasets. An unhandled overflow error that doesn't manifest until you exceed 2^64, is still an unhandled overflow error.

    For a trivial example of my point, try using 32-bit signed integers to calculate the Collatz iteration of 113,383.

    1. Re:overflow and "working correctly" by martin-boundary · · Score: 2
      True, but again, this overflow will show up much sooner in a smaller setting, say when the algorithm is compiled with 16-bit or even 8-bit integer variables. You haven't shown that 2^64 is an inherent lower bound for the appearance of the overflow bug.

      Incidentally, people who don't know about computer architecture wouldn't be aware about overflows, so wouldn't know to check these conditions. Something about semi-educated programmers and their ability to debug code?

  8. How small is your basement? by oneiros27 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Internet Archive's last published generation Petabox (now more than a year old, so they were using smaller drives), would take two racks ... which is still reasonable, but you could probably fit it in a single rack with today's drives. A Backblaze Pod is 42 disks in 4U, so you could do it yourself and assuming you can get enough large disks after that whole flooding thing, be able to get a TB in a single rack easily. The Sun Thumper took 48 disks in 4U ... I don't know if the X4540 ever supported larger than 1TB disks, though.

    My department just got a Nexsan E60 in yesterday ... 60 3TB disks in 4U, so you can squeeze 1.8PB raw in a 42U rack. (usable space ... still more than a PB, even with spares.)

    So, space isn't the issue ... power and cooling way be, though.

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.