Google, Motorola Ordered To Provide Android Info To Apple

snydeq writes "A U.S. judge has ordered Motorola Mobility and Google to turn over information to Apple on Google's acquisition in 2005 of Android, its development of the Android OS and the proposed acquisition of Motorola. According to Motorola, the information Apple seeks regarding Google's acquisition of Motorola and Android is not relevant to any damages asserted in the case." This comes alongside news that Apple has offered licensing deals to Motorola and Samsung that would resolve some of the patent litigation. Apple is reportedly asking for $5-$15 per device sold.

Comments

Paying Microsoft and Apple for Android ?

[Lennie]

So some manufacturers will end up paying Apple and Microsoft per device sold ? That's crazy.

Re:Paying Microsoft and Apple for Android ?

[macshit]

Yes, our broken patent system is crazy. It stifles innovation and harms society. That's why it should be significantly reformed (i.e., gutted).

That won't happen, of course, because companies like MS and Apple can afford to make it not happen. What's actually good for society is pretty much irrelevant.

Re:Paying Microsoft and Apple for Android ?

[zill]

I used to think the patent licensing system was like racketeering. But I was wrong.

With racketeering you only have to pay one gang. With the patent system you have to pay multiple gangs.

Re:Paying Microsoft and Apple for Android ?

[Daniel Phillips]

Apparently, Apple and Microsoft are both counting on Linux to secure their retirement income.

Re:Paying Microsoft and Apple for Android ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Google is just as guilty of this as anyone. They also have no desire to actually push for patent reforms; as they also rely on many patents for their search business.

please point out one lawsuit that had to do with a google search patent. In fact google openly provided map reduce framework on handling large datasets a key to their search business.

Re:Paying Microsoft and Apple for Android ?

[VortexCortex]

Yes, our broken patent system is crazy. It stifles innovation and harms society. That's why it should be significantly reformed (i.e., gutted).

I think patents should be eradicated outright, screw reform. Geniuses aren't special. There were two telephones in the PTO within hours of each other. Edison's 1880 Light-bulb patent came after Swan's 1878 UK patent for an improved incandescent lamp in a vacuum tube... Some of my teenage hobby source code is prior art that would invalidate many software patents held today (eg: VMware's saving & restoring VM state -- my Lisp VM did just that). Granting a monopoly over an idea because you made it to the patent office first is not valuable in today's society. The patent system has never worked as intended, it has always favoured the rich and established, not the basement genius.

I say we eradicate the patent system. The "no more innovation argumenteers" can argue all they want, but without testing the hypothesis it's all just untested conjecture. I say let's do the experiment. It's not like we can't re-instate whatever BS laws we want.

What if we sold the devices BLANK! Then you could by the Android OS firmware you want, or install your own separately installed via SD card. You know, like in the good old days, when you paid for hardware without being forced to pay for software too.

I've read lots of software patents and they all use a loophole: "Method and Apparatus for _____"
You see, the software is merely a binary description of the method, it's not an apparatus unless you consider the mind an apparatus... Neither can the blank general purpose computer AKA Apparatus by itself infringe a software patent.

So, the patent would only apply once the end user installs the software on the device and boots it, and eventually executes the patented instructions that implement the Method on the Apparatus -- if they ever do. Good luck suing all the end users, esp. when it's not clear that their machines executed the infringing code.

A patent application has a description of the patented process in it. That can be translated into Spanish, HTML, PDF, pseudo-code, etc. and it's not an infringement. OK, so what If It's translated into C? Still not an infringement, right? What if the C code is translated to machine code, or what if I actually manually translate the patent application into machine code (as I do occasionally, when I debug the compilers I make). I can execute those machine instructions on graph paper with a pencil, my mind is the Apparatus. So, this shouldn't be an infringement either.

You could sell the devices blank with only a PDF on them that actually describes the patented processes... right? I mean, downloading a PDF of a patent doesn't magically make my PC infringe the patent described therein. So, you could just as easily have placed the pseudo-code translation of said software patent claims on the otherwise blank device, still not an infringement, eh? What about C? Here's a device with a C code description of a patent in it. Is that an infringement? Nope. I'm having a hard time following the logical leap whereby the machine code translation of the patent claims creates an infringing use... eg: what if the device has the wrong firmware -- OR no power source -- That non-function device can't infringe a patent on a store shelf...

Well, let's say said device has a compiler present? If the C code isn't an infringement -- It's equivalent to a French or Pseudo-code translation of the patent -- then, you could simply compile the offending code yourself the first time the device is used. Wouldn't that "route-around" the distributor's infringing of said patents?

Seriously... this software patent crap has to stop.

Re:Paying Microsoft and Apple for Android ?

[Capt. Skinny]

That was the original intent, yes. But overly broad patents owned by litigious corporations with deep pockets have created a fear among inventors or potential inventors that any new invention will be labeled as infringing by some corporation owning some broad patent. As a result, only the litigious corporations with deep pockets dare take the risk of selling a new invention.

Re:Paying Microsoft and Apple for Android ?

[Capt. Skinny]

I think patents should be eradicated outright, screw reform. Geniuses aren't special.

Innovation requires more effort than genius. There are few "Ah-ha!" developments that come to people in the middle of the night in a dream. Patents are intended to create a profit incentive for people to put in the requisite effort, thereby encouraging innovation for the public good.

Without a profit incentive, why should I spend years in my lab building a better solar panel, or heart valve, or internal combustion engine? As soon as my years of hard work pay off and I put my product on the market, countless other companies would be able to offer the same thing for only the cost of reverse engineering my product. I endured all the up-front development costs, yet I make the same profit as everyone else who starts selling it because I have to compete with everyone else. I'm a nice guy, but I'm not self-sacrificing.

Seriously... this software patent crap has to stop.

The crap, yes. Patents themselves, no.

Re:Paying Microsoft and Apple for Android ?

[Aryden]

not when a company (Apple) can sue and win in court because a device has rounded corners and thus infringes on their patent (see Apple vs Samsung). I think the end result was, it couldn't be rectangular with rounded corners or have a "home" button of any sort.

Re:Paying Microsoft and Apple for Android ?

[lorenlal]

I'm glad you found one case that was opened before Google acquired Motorola Mobility, where MM was actively defending against a troll in Microsoft. Microsoft accusing anyone of abusing patents is kinda like a black hole calling something dark. Seeing how the litigation between MS and MM has been going on since 10/10, I'm going to say your example isn't making GGP's assertion true. In fact, I'm willing to say that if that's the best someone can come up with, that assertion is absolutely false.

Your case is more an example of how Microsoft has been abusing its patent portfolio for seriously hideous patents. Most manufacturers just signed up to pay MS a cost of a Windows Mobile license to avoid litigation, and they passed the cost on to the consumer. You're thinking that deserves defense and benefits us? Apple wants a cut of the same action. They're proving that they're no better than MS, NTP and SCO in my book.

All this does is reinforce the idea that if you're a small time inventor, or even a big time manufacturer, who really wants to make a product that innovates, and gives people something they really want... There's no chance in hell in the US. MS, Apple, NTP, Honeywell or some other patent holding company will just kill you for making it remotely useful.

Re:Paying Microsoft and Apple for Android ?

[rtb61]

That ludicrous claim would only be valid if people buying an Android device believed they were buying an Apple device, this being the original intent of the law.

Clearly people were buying those device because the hardware outperformed the Apple hardware for the same price and the Android software was and is superior. So Apple intentionally distorted application of the law to prevent competition, using legal literal ambiguities.

Re:lame

[VortexCortex]

Oh shit. There goes the planet.

There's nothing to worry about at the moment. Wait to start worrying until we have more details next year...
...Wait, you meant to reply to the asteroid story, right?

The more I see Apple playing patent troll...

[BulletMagnet]

The more I wish Gates would have pissed on Jobs back in 1997........

Re:Between Apple and Microsoft

[WankersRevenge]

I feel the same way about game consoles. But with smart phones and tablets, I think both Microsoft and Apple see the writing on the wall.

Just for the record, I'm an iOS dev. I've avoided Android devices pretty much because I wasn't interested in the OS. Well, recently, I've been expanding my skillset and started branching out. I picked up a Galaxy Tab for a learning / development machine. I didn't like it at first but it became a slow burn and I found myself really enjoying the os (I find the back button for applications to be a brilliant os concept).

While I still prefer the overall experience of an iPad, it's painfully obvious that the "tablet gap" (cue strangelove) is being closed. I can't see Apple staying on top much longer and I'm guessing with their litigation spree, neither can they. It's literally Apple versus the world and those aren't very good odds.

If both companies manage to get a chuck of every tablet phone sale, they kind of win in a very shady way. The real thing to do is get rid of software patents or limit them to an ultra small window (a year at most). I don't see that ever happening unless we somehow divorce money from politics, but that's a whole different issue.

Re:Apple becoming a patent troll?

[Trolan]

A patent troll is usually called that because they didn't produce anything using the patent in question aside from a lawsuit. Apple here is using patents they are actively using, and believe that are being infringed by Android. Considering Motorola is going for 2.5% of sale price of iPhones for use of standards patents covered by FRAND, this is at least a more reasonable figure. It's also quite possibly a means of leveraging a cross-licensing deal so neither side winds up paying the other a dime.

Ultimately, they're doing what most sane businesses would do. If you had a design you felt was innovative enough to patent and you spent a ton of R&D on, and you saw a company producing something that you believe is infringing on your ideas, would you just sit back and let them run with it? Or do you like doing free R&D for your competition?

Re:Between Apple and Microsoft

[ozmanjusri]

Buy a cheap knock-off China phone. It's the only ethical choice.

Re:Apple becoming a patent troll?

[exomondo]

Why does Apple need to do this so badly? I understand that U$ 5 for every Motorola/Samsung Android phone/tablet is a hefty sum of money, but this hurts their image. specially for their customers, as it *could* be interpreted as having a difficult competing with Android. I'm very disappointed that they are going the same way as other patent trolls :(

Well a 'patent troll' is an entity that just holds patents and sues people that actually use the without licensing them but doesn't actually use them themselves, just suing over use of patents isn't 'patent trolling', so Apple isn't a patent troll. And wrt hurting their image for their customers, if the conditions and incidents at the factories that build their products don't turn off their customers i hardly think suing their competitors for using their innovations (which is of course how they'll spin it regardless of your point of view) is going to.

Re:Between Apple and Microsoft

[Daniel Phillips]

I find the back button for applications to be a brilliant os concept.

True. It is a sensible API that has a natural interpretation: return to the context from which the current context was invoked, whether that be another application, an earlier frame of the browser chain or whatever. Now the obvious: forward is equally natural and is blatantly not there in Android. How many times have I hit the "back", ending up back in the application list or somewhere, and have to go hunting around to get back into the application context I just left? Which by the way is still running by the "apps never exit" rule. So obviously what I really want is a forward button, right next the the back button as is right and proper. Whenever that makes sense of course. Note to Android devs: quick, implement this before troll Apple claims to own the patent.

Re:Photo of phones before and after iphone

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahem

Re:Photo of phones before and after iphone

[SuperAlgae]

A picture is worth a thousand words, but unfortunately there is no guarantee that those words are truthful.

Motorola had a very iPhone-like device (even with an app store) in 2006 before the iPhone was released...
http://www.quora.com/Why-was-Motorola-unable-to-capitalize-on-their-EZX-MotoMAGX-smartphone-platform-outside-of-China

Motorola hurt themselves with some bad decisions, but Apple did not single-handedly invent the modern smartphone. And I'm sure there are similar examples from other companies at the time. The fact that Apple executed better than their competitors has given them plenty of deserved success. It does not give them the right to hold a monopoly over the industry.

Can *you* deny that Apple did not borrow ideas?

[walterbyrd]

Jobs was notorious for stealing the ideas of others.

If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/02/if-android-is-a-stolen-product-then-so-was-the-iphone.ars

Only solution is to boycott Apple

[walterbyrd]

I will be glad to go first.

Apple may have some nice products, but there is nothing I can't live without. Unlike MS, few people are locked-in to Apple.

I suppose Apple will still make a small amount off it's junk patents. But, that only until Apple gets sued back in some serious way. Really, how much of Apple's bullshit do you think other companies are going to take, before they take some action back?

Re:Only solution is to boycott Apple

[Truedat]

Just wondering which honest and venerable businesses you will be supporting as an alternative.

Whoosh!

[jamrock]

People buy your products because they are original, innovative and useful. Litigation for profit is not original. Litigation for profit is not innovative. Litigation for profit is not useful.

You and so many others here just don't get it. Apple isn't interested in making money off Android. They want to kill it. The revenues from potential patent licenses, while nice, would be a rounding error on their P and L. Microsoft's motive may be partly for the profit (it's likely that their revenue from licensing patents to Android manufacturers exceeds their revenues from Windows Phone), but Apple is most assuredly not interested. Apple's motive is to chill Android's ascent, or preferably, kill the platform outright. There is apparently genuine anger inside Apple that is directed at Google because of Android; Apple feels that Google blatantly capitalized on Apple's hard work in birthing the iPhone and they're prepared to go to the mattresses to right the perceived wrong.

By making Android handsets more expensive to produce, Apple and Microsoft are adding friction to the adoption of Android, and both companies have large war chests they can use to open more fronts in their war against Google, the true enemy of both. Companies contemplating using Android will think twice before facing the two titans.

Re:Whoosh!

[Daniel Phillips]

Apple isn't interested in making money off Android. They want to kill it.

Oh, everybody gets that. If only because Steve Jobs literally stated it before he, ahem, died. Well, that karma thing you know.

Patents

[Taco Cowboy]

As one who owns 3 patents here is my humble opinion:

It has passed time that the patent system be gutted

The patent system was set up to encourage innovation, but the effect in recent years has been exactly the opposite

To come up with innovative ideas isn't hard - trust me, my 3 patents testify to that - but to make sure that no megacorp gets rich with your innovative ideas without paying is just too damn crazy --- I had to pay 3 big law firms to carry out separate international patent searches in order to make sure that *MY* innovative ideas were original

Why 3 law firms instead of one? Because I just do not have the deep pockets of the megacorps and I do not want to end up letting the patent trolls profiting from *MY* ideas

If the patent system is gutted today, I will not lose even one minute of sleep - sure I'll lose some $$$ but compare to the loss of those patent trolls, my lose is insignificant

As per why I patent those ideas in the first place? Well, if I don't, then some mofos hired by those patent trolls will eventually patent them to make even more megabucks

True, I do charge for those who are using my patents, but only for pennies per device, depending on volume