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Nanowire Forests Use Sunlight To Split Water

An anonymous reader sends this excerpt from IEEE Spectrum's Nanoclast blog: "One of the fundamental problems with fuel cells has been the cost of producing hydrogen. While hydrogen is, of course, the most abundant element, it attaches itself to other elements like nitrogen or fluorine, and perhaps most ubiquitously to oxygen to create the water molecule. ... Now researchers at University of California, San Diego have developed a quite different approach to mimicking photosynthesis for splitting water molecules by using a 3D branched nanowire array that looks like a forest of trees. ... The nanowire forest [uses] the process of photoelectrochemical water-splitting to produce hydrogen gas. The method used by the researchers, which was published in the journal Nanoscale (abstract), found that the forest structure of the nanowires, which has a massive amount of surface area, not only captured more light than flat planar designs, but also produced more hydrogen gas."

14 of 56 comments (clear)

  1. Efficiency? by tp1024 · · Score: 2

    I hate abstracts. But I do have the abstract feeling, that the efficiency is not very high.

    1. Re:Efficiency? by Jeremi · · Score: 4, Informative

      At what point will the technology provide more useful energy output than is required to manufacture and maintain the system? Will it substantially reduce fossil fuel usage, or is it another ruse, like the wind farms?

      Oh dear, a Slashdot poster has made what appears to be a false claim about the EROI of wind farms.

      Time to google around a bit and see if there's anything to it....

      This analysis reviews and synthesizes the literature on net energy return for electric power generation by wind turbines. Energy return on investment (EROI) is the ratio of energy delivered to energy costs. [...] Our survey shows an average EROI for just the operational studies is 19.8 (n=60; std. dev=13.7) This places wind in a favorable position relative to fossil fuels, nuclear, and solar power generation technologies in terms of EROI."

      So, to sum up the above summary -- parent poster is wrong. As a matter of historical record, the average wind farm produces about 20 times more much energy than it expends on construction and maintenance.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    2. Re:Efficiency? by redneckmother · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At what point will the technology provide more useful energy output than is required to manufacture and maintain the system? Will it substantially reduce fossil fuel usage, or is it another ruse, like the wind farms?

      Oh dear, a Slashdot poster has made what appears to be a false claim about the EROI of wind farms.

      Time to google around a bit and see if there's anything to it....

      This analysis reviews and synthesizes the literature on net energy return for electric power generation by wind turbines. Energy return on investment (EROI) is the ratio of energy delivered to energy costs. [...] Our survey shows an average EROI for just the operational studies is 19.8 (n=60; std. dev=13.7) This places wind in a favorable position relative to fossil fuels, nuclear, and solar power generation technologies in terms of EROI."

      So, to sum up the above summary -- parent poster is wrong. As a matter of historical record, the average wind farm produces about 20 times more much energy than it expends on construction and maintenance.

      Oh dear, a Slashdot poster appears to share the same opinions as the Big Energy Companies. Please google a little further and take a look at http://www.wind-watch.org/ for a different point of view. BTW - I live in West Texas - we're surrounded by these beasts. It's all a scam foisted on us by companies like (early adopter) Enron. The winners are the developers, the losers are the customers neighbors, and wildlife. Ask the folks in North Texas, who had to deal with a brownout a few years ago when the winds died. Ask Big Energy why they must build more conventional plants when they add wind to the grid, and why those conventional plants have to be running while the wind farms are generating. Ask the residents of Great Britain and Europe how wonderful wind is. Ask how much carbon does wind energy eliminate from overall emissions. (/soapbox)

    3. Re:Efficiency? by tragedy · · Score: 2

      Ask Big Energy why they must build more conventional plants when they add wind to the grid, and why those conventional plants have to be running while the wind farms are generating.

      Ok, the answers to that one are so blazingly obvious I wonder why you bothered to ask. The obvious answer is that demand is increasing all the time so they need to build more plants anyway. Also the wind doesn't blow all the time, so it needs to be supplemented. As for those plants running while the wind farms are generating... Hmm, maybe because they cost a lot to build, the companies that built them want to run them as much as they can and sell the power?

      Seriously, the stuff you're saying comes off like a bit of a crazy rant. I certainly get that some people don't like these wind farms being built next to them. How that equates into the wind farms being some giant conspiracy to erect towers that don't really generate power (which seems to be what you're implying), I have no idea.

    4. Re:Efficiency? by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why not use the wind energy to make hydrogen, and store the hydrogen (as a gas, as a liquid, or in metal hydrides)?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage

      Or why not use the wind to make compressed air, and store the compressed air?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy

      Or why not use the wind to charge batteries?
      http://arpa-e.energy.gov/ProgramsProjects/GRIDS/ARobustandInexpensiveIronAirRechargeableBat.aspx

      Or why not use the wind to heat up molten salts, and use a steam turbine to make power? Solar does it, but so could wind:
      http://grist.org/solar-power/2011-07-05-groundbreaking-solar-plant-in-spain-generates-24-hours-of-power/

      Or why not use the wind energy to produce liquid synthetic fuels from carbon from the air?
      http://www.staxera.de/announcement.105+M5320325207d.0.html?&L=1

      Or why not use the wind energy to run energy-intensive industrial processes that can run intermittently (like grinding up rocks for fertilizer or chilling nitrogen out of the air)? And so on.
      http://www.remineralize.org/

      There are solutions for the lack of buffers for renewable energy. Put them all together, and you have a way to use wind.

      That said, LENR and cheap solar panels seem more likely to succeed, one because it is compact (if it really works) and the other because it has now moving parts and requires little maintenance.
      http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/01/15/0226219/can-nasa-warm-cold-fusion
      http://cleantechnica.com/2011/05/29/ge-solar-power-cheaper-than-fossil-fuels-in-5-years/

      "A Road Not Taken: Solar Panels, Jimmy Carter, and Missed Opportunities for Change "
      http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2010/06/a-road-not-taken-solar-panels-jimmy-carter-and-missed-opportunities-for-change
      http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2010/09/obama-no-thanks-to-carter-solar-panels

      The true cost of fossil fuels:
      http://www.treehugger.com/energy-policy/true-cost-fossil-fuels.html
      "For decades now, fossil fuel company executives and D.C. politicians have worked together to ensure that coal and oil prices stay low enough to keep the American people hooked. In his new book Greedy Bastards, Dylan Ratigan explains how "vampire industries" like oil and coal have forged "an unholy alliance with government based not just on the money that they contribute to political campaigns and spend on lobbying but on their ability to hypnotize us with false prices." Industry gets tax breaks, subsidies, military support in volatile regions, the right to use our air and water like a sewer, and assurance that the government will clean up its environmental messes. Politicians get campaign contributions, a steady flow of dirty energy, and a talking point to brandish about how they kept gas affordable. But the Ame

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    5. Re:Efficiency? by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2

      Citation needed. If people believed as you did, there would never be any innovation...

      Also, you raise a false dillemma. Vast amounts of financial capital in our society have tied themselves up into energy sources they can more easily control. It's a mindset that won't invest much in alternatives, and will invest in politics to keep their control in place (like preventing laws regulating coal pollution).

      Actually, I live in a fairly energy efficient house (partially passive solar), so I am practicing that I preach to some extent (not perfectly). The state of the art in home construction these days in cold climates is to have lots of efficiency and no furnace:
      http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/world/europe/27house.html?_r=1
      "DARMSTADT, Germany â" From the outside, there is nothing unusual about the stylish new gray and orange row houses in the Kranichstein District, with wreaths on the doors and Christmas lights twinkling through a freezing drizzle. But these houses are part of a revolution in building design: There are no drafts, no cold tile floors, no snuggling under blankets until the furnace kicks in. There is, in fact, no furnace."

      I also eat pretty low on the food chain, that saves lots of energy and water and medical costs and pollution and animal suffering and so on.
      http://www.westernwatersheds.org/watmess/watmess_2002/2002html_summer/article6.htm

      I provided lots of links to people putting time and money into alternatives, and they just continue to improve. The fact that GE is predicting solar will be cheaper that coal in five years despite how coal is subsidized so much (including by not having to pay for the health costs or environment destruction costs) just shows how good renewables are.
      http://cleantechnica.com/2011/05/29/ge-solar-power-cheaper-than-fossil-fuels-in-5-years/

      Coal did not pay its true cost in 1993:
      http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1993/12/the-true-cost-of-coal/4566/

      Coal does not pay its true cost now (perhaps half a trillion dollars a year):
      http://www.skepticalscience.com/true-cost-of-coal-power.html
      http://www.desmogblog.com/true-cost-coal-half-trillion-dollars-year

      And that is what makes it so hard "economically" to sell alternatives.

      So, it is indeed hard to compete against such a tilted playing field, true. That is a missing issue in your comment about "so you do it", unpaid externalities.

      In fact, if you reread my comment, you will see I said "No one said it was going to be easy"... That is why it is now a socio-economic issue more than a technical issue. We have plenty of technology if we wanted to use it. And it would overall be cheaper to use it overall across our society, and then alternatives would be adopted faster when gasoline was $20 a gallon with externalities priced in (we'd all drive electric cars pretty fast) or when coal electricity was $0.50 a kilowatt-hour (we'd all switch to wind and other renewables plus energy efficiency real fast). But that does not happen because we don't pay up front. Instead we pay on our health insurance bills, or in national debt to fund a war machine, or future environmental destruction that needs to be fixed, and so on...

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  2. Re:Abundant where? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Maybe not by itself, but there's hydrogen in water, which Earth has a lot of to say the least.

  3. Groovy by RedBear · · Score: 4, Funny

    So in the future we'll all be driving electric-hydrogen vehicles covered in a sort of shag carpet of nanowire trees?

    That...

    is...

    AWESOME!

  4. Hmmm... ZnO band gap is 3.37 eV by dsgrntlxmply · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The experiment is interesting as regards the benefits of the nanostructure of the materials, but the 3.37 eV band gap of ZnO must be kicked across by a photon of no less energy (no longer wavelength) than 367 nm: ultraviolet.

    The good news is that you have plenty of energy relative to 1.25eV minimum needed to split water. The bad news is that you need high energy photons that are relatively scarce in sunlight by the time it reaches the earth's surface.

    1. Re:Hmmm... ZnO band gap is 3.37 eV by dsgrntlxmply · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Look at the carbon fixing (CO2-transforming) enzyme in nature: Rubisco. The elegance of the photon capturing and energy transport systems around it, and the machinery required to assemble the enzyme itself, will make you weep in amazement that it ever could have happened. The slow throughput of the system (molecules per second) and its bungling propensity to run backwards and re-oxidize (respiration), will make you weep in frustration.

      Some plants (the C4 plants, such as maize/corn, sugar cane, and sorghum, typically evolved in hotter climates) cheat this up some by structural improvements that increase the concentration of CO2 through an intermediate structure.

      We very likely have a lot of hard but interesting work to do, before we can design something comparable or better for human purposes.

  5. Re:Solar cells? by Skapare · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've heard that concentrating light on a solar cell increases the efficiency. So if a concentrator captures 4x light from a 4x aperture onto the same size solar cell surface, you get more electrical energy than just 4 like surfaces. If that's true, the intensity is doing something to avoid the losses, which I assume are heat losses, which should normally be higher with a concentration due to the higher temperature. Any truth or applicability to that?

    The Holy Grail of solar power is, of course, to turn 100% of sunlight energy (across a huge spectrum) into an energy form that can be directly used. So I'm looking for that (without all that science background to know the details about things that can really work. My last look into this was trying to find if anyone was building nano Sterling Engines.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  6. A simple answer means no attempt at a clue by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Thinking for several seconds about windmills should have been enough to bring up some historical examples of where windmills were used, for the one and only reason that they got the job done. If they didn't provide the "return on investment" they would not have been used as widely. Move forward to today and it should also be obvious that there is more than one type/size/etc of wind turbine and more than location where they can go and the wind behaves differently in different places (average/maximum/sustained/etc), so the time for an energy return on investment is going to vary wildly enough that the question is almost irrelevant. It wouldn't be irrelevant if the answer in most cases was a long time, but if it was we wouldn't have had that historical use of wind power in the first place.
    To sum up, the EROI (energy return on investment) argument is recycled from weird US anti-solar propaganda from the 1970s which lost all credibility when silicon based integrated circuits were mass produced and photovoltaics got the benefit of the being produced out of the same wafers. I'm assuming the hope is that a younger generation will not see it as the lazy bullshit that it is and swallow the lie whole. Did you swallow the lie or do you know it is a lie but are maliciously spreading it to cheer for your political team?

    Also scammers will take anything handy to use as a tool to make money. Just because there are opportunists gouging people under the excuse of "green energy" does not mean that their tool is inherently bad.

    Wind is crap at baseload but that doesn't always matter for several reasons:
    Everything that is good at baseload has to be built at huge scales anyway, so building something small that is more expensive per MW can be a good idea if you don't need a lot of new capacity right away.
    Covering the peak loads is often the big problem on a grid and small power sources that can be switched in quickly can solve that.
    The small unit size means lower consequences of failure and makes scheduling downtime for maintainance easier, which is just as well because wind needs a lot of maintainance.
    You don't want all your energy eggs in one basket. In a drought your inland coal, oil or nuclear plants can run short on cooling water for instance. The amount of cooling water thermal power stations need is staggering, but of course usually just comes out as warmed up water not a big deal unless there isn't much coming in from upstream or a dam is drying up.

    Anyway, I'm not sure why wind has come up at all since it's about as offtopic as nuclear, which seems to get thrown up the second somebody mentions anything at all about energy. Getting back onto the point, there's no reason to limit this down to just writing about burning the stuff - it takes a vast amount of equipment to get hydrogen out of gas that is already conveniently methane/butane/etc on an industrial scale and there is a lot you can do with it. The majority of fertiliser is made from natural gas simply because that's the easiest way to get hydrogen to make ammonia. That's just one example. Hydrogen is very useful stuff in it's own right before you even think about burning it. A new way to produce hydrogen without expending a lot of energy that can be used without requiring equipment that fills a large space has a lot of potential uses.

  7. Re:Toxic by dbIII · · Score: 2

    Slack to the point of being criminally negligent. Of course nothing ever happened other than a big pile of paperwork and their boss telling them to check more carefully for witnesses in the future.