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Astroturfing For Speed Cameras

New submitter dalosla writes "Chicago's mayor is pushing to change red light cameras near schools and parks into speed cameras. Just about everybody sees it as a cash grab by the city. Today's Chicago Tribune has an article about how the expanded speed camera program would benefit Redflex, the company Greg Goldner, one of the mayor's long time political supporters, lobbies for. This is of merely local interest, but of wider interest in the article would be information about Goldner's astroturfing for Redflex around the country. Redflex is the sole financial supporter for the Traffic Safety Coalition, a 'grassroots' organization to promote more traffic camera usage and fight any attempts to restrict such cameras. Goldner has already successfully facilitated the killing of one anti-camera ballot measure in Texas."

29 of 342 comments (clear)

  1. City overpaying? by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It appears that the cameras for this system are already in place, they just need a software update to judge speeds in addition to the red light function they already have. This should be cheap to do, so how much is the city of Chicago paying this politically connected man to do this? Is it a fair price, or payback for campaign contributions?

    1. Re:City overpaying? by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Informative

      "The Chicago way," and it's been like that since at least prohibition. Chicago is perhaps the most corrupt city in the US. Note that both previous Illinois governors are in federal prison for corruption? Both are Chicagoans.

      No politician in Chicago does anything whatever that his cronies don't get a cut of. It's horible, and unfortunately affects the rest of the state as well.

      If everything north of I-80 were deemed a new state, most of Illinois' problems would go away.

    2. Re:City overpaying? by icebike · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The cameras typically used (country wide, I have no specific knowledge of Chicago) can be set to trigger at virtually any speed on a permitted right turn on red. So they can set it to catch a one mile per hour rolling stop, and issue a ticket even when there is zero cross traffic.

      They are focused on small areas, the intersection. So the only place they monitor speed is in the intersection, and the only speeders they will catch there are the ones trying to beat the short yellows that have been put in place to raise revenue.
      Going thru the intersection at 5 over to beat the light does not cause accidents, because cross traffic is already stopped, pedestrians are not permitted to be crossing at that time. Further the speeding can only occur when there is no traffic ahead, and the speeder will have to slow down as soon as they catch up to traffic.

      In short, the only use case is to catch those trying to beat the short yellow.

      This issue is starting to hit the main stream press in Chicago, and the mayor is currently in "no comment" mode over his relationship with Goldner. But Chicago being Chicago, this will probably be pushed through regardless.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    3. Re:City overpaying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Many of these red light cameras have been driven out of town by proving they do not adhere to the national highway safety standard of 4-second yellow lights.
      The cameras are deliberately defaulting (on installation) to 3 and 2 second yellows, to raise ticket revenue.
      Once you force them to 4 second yellows, the company wants to pull out their cameras and install them in another town...

    4. Re:City overpaying? by bipbop · · Score: 3, Insightful

      what's wrong with the "The Chicago Way" style of corruption?

      It may have been morally bankrupt

    5. Re:City overpaying? by X0563511 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ... or you could be rolling, because the intersection was designed properly and you can clearly see the crosswalks etc before even reaching the intersection.

      This is a case of enforcing the letter of the law over the spirit of the law. It should be the other way around.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    6. Re:City overpaying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't forget the current President is also a Chicagoan, and he's obviously corrupt.

      Conveniently he's a Chicagoan when discussing corrupt Chicago politics, a Washington insider (former Senator) when discussing national politics, and a secret Kenyan when discussing whether he should even be president. Welcome to "Newspin" on the Faux News Network.

    7. Re:City overpaying? by Entropius · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's Obama's fault for being a puppet, then. Saying that it's his fault because he allows people to pull the strings is just the same as saying he's corrupt.

      He could have put his foot down on any number of things at any point. He didn't.

      Maybe it'd be hard to elect anyone else -- I voted for him because McCain/Palin is even scarier. But saying that he's not a rat bastard because the other guys are also rat bastards doesn't excuse him.

  2. Think of the children! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This will probably continue for the same reason DUI laws keep getting more draconian - everyone is scared that if they speak against it they will be lambasted as uncaring assholes - which doesn't make for good campaigning. And good luck fighting any tickets you receive in a school zone, you insensitive bastard. You''re putting all of our kids at risk!

    1. Re:Think of the children! by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I boycott these cash generation schemes by stopping at red lights and not going over the speed limit. That'll teach the bastards! Lets see how long they stay up with no revenue being generated!

      --
      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    2. Re:Think of the children! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      You''re putting all of our kids at risk!

      Tell me about it. The last thing my kid can afford is a $100 speeding ticket.

    3. Re:Think of the children! by sanosuke001 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I honestly have no problem with the cameras themselves its the 1. lowering yellow light durations and 2. the "fees" required by the outsourced company. Keep yellow lights at a still safe level and do the camera work in-house and I'd be delighted to install these. I don't speed or run red lights anyway; make money off the other people on the road, less taxes for me!

      --
      -SaNo
    4. Re:Think of the children! by Whorhay · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The funny thing is that this is what happened in LA. They shut down their red light camera system because it wasn't generating enough revenue, which is funny because they are usually promoted as a safety issue not revenue.

  3. The West can fight this very, very easily... by Entropius · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... or, really, anywhere with a ballot initiative process.

    Citizens should push for ballot initiatives that require that all money collected for traffic and parking offenses goes back to the citizens as a tax credit. This should have broad popular support in most places.

    Yeah, the police/DoT would have to raise taxes to replace the lost revenue... but it would create a system where they have no fiscal incentive to engage in highway robbery, which is what traffic enforcement these days amounts to.

    1. Re:The West can fight this very, very easily... by Walterk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You'd think this, but over in Europe, there's a few countries (at least the UK) that use the cash generated from speed and red light cameras that goes straight into the Treasury's coffers and used to try and plug any deficits to little avail. The knock on effect from this is that the police need to catch at least the same number of people or more to commit a traffic violation in order to keep the country's finances in check. This of course means quotas.

      The end result? Government mandated highway robbery.

    2. Re:The West can fight this very, very easily... by wolrahnaes · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How about this: Set the speed limits sanely, then most people won't violate them.

      When a road that should be 45 or 55 is set to 25 because some politicians' crotchety old grandma lives on that street and bitches or because some overconcerned parent with connections thinks that the whole world revolves around their children, it's the speed limit that is wrong and not those violating it. When a divided highway with good shoulders and large barriers is set to 55, it's the speed limit that's wrong and not those violating it.

      Yes someone doing 120 in any of those cases is still in the wrong, but that's because they're exceeding the safe and proper speed for the road, which in almost all cases is somewhere between 10 and 35 MPH greater than the posted speed limit.

      I don't have the references handy, but I've read a number of papers indicating that on average, people tend to drive the same speed on the same stretch of road no matter what the posted limit actually is. We know what feels right for the road and just do that. Whether the average road speed in clear traffic has anything to do with the posted limit is nothing more than an indication of how broken the politics are in that area. On that note, the D.C. metro area is a top offender here. Miles upon miles of smooth, wide, divided asphalt where the no-traffic comfortable cruising speed is 80-85, yet the speed limit is 55. If it's not gridlock, at least 80% of the vehicles on the road are doing 25+ over the limit.

      Speed limits are necessary because we all know there'd be some people trying to do 150 everywhere if they weren't around, but don't try for a second to act like the limits commonly in place make a bit of sense.

      --
      I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
  4. Patronage? by lax-goalie · · Score: 4, Funny

    Political patronage in Chicago?

    I'm shocked!

  5. Chicago? by srussia · · Score: 5, Informative

    Say no more--oh, wait, just one more thing, that "Chicago mayor" is none other than Rahm Emanuel.

    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
  6. They tried this here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    For years Albuquerque had red light/speeding cameras at a lot of intersections. The public got tired of it, and the city council voted to drop the contract. After a long legal fight, the cameras finally got taken down.

    Think that's the end of it? Hah.

    See, because Redflex is a private citizen (thanks citizens united!), and not a governmental institution, the company couldn't file criminal cases against alleged speeders/red light runners, so any of the charges they brought forward were always civil cases. This also means that you don't have to go to court to fight the charges, pay any settlements, or essentially give a damn because no police officers saw the crime take place.

    Why does this make a difference? Because Redflex was guaranteed something like 40% of the ticket price per incident. Which they're obviously not going to get. So what did they do? They sued the city for $4.5 million.

  7. If I won the lottery... by swb · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One of the things I would do is hire a statistician/economist to study speed/traffic enforcement and find out if law enforcement is even remotely performing enforcement relative to areas of high accidents. If its totally unrelated statistically, I'd hire a lobbyist (or maybe even a politician!) to publicly shame them for wasting money and just harassing people and possibly push for a law that would require the police to enforce traffic safety where there were actual problems with traffic safety. Maybe even make "speed traps" not in a state reported risk zone flat out illegal.

    My guess is that 90% of police traffic/speed enforcement has literally nothing to do with traffic safety but instead is focused on where people are speeding (underutilized highways, in good condition, etc) and how easy it is to catch them (good hiding places, good weather, etc).

    I've never heard of a police department doing an analysis on accidents, traffic volume, pedestrian volume and then choosing to focus enforcement efforts on areas where people actually have a lot of accidents related to traffic infractions.

    I'm told by someone in law enforcement that in at least one upscale suburban community their speed enforcement on local streets has literally nothing to do with traffic safety -- they pick spots where people naturally speed by small margins (eg, 35 in a 30 zone) due to hills or lack of intersections for the express purpose of pulling them over, checking identification, and trying to get "easy" arrests for other offenses unrelated to traffic safety. Basically one step above a police state checkpoint.

  8. Re:Don't speed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I like how you propose "don't speed" as a solution, while simultaneously saying you got a speeding ticket you didn't deserve.

    So apparently "don't speed" isn't actually a valid defense.

  9. Example in Italy, and a simple solution by gadget+junkie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wonder if it has already been tried in the US of A, but there's a solution to this speed camera problem, which is widespread here in Italy:

    1. the community must actually buy the equipment in an open bidding contest;
    2. payment for the equipment is upfront, and any variable fee, maintenance fee etc. is prohibited, to avoid the "tax farming" problem;
    3.[this is the neat one] when writing the budget, the community is absolutely forbidden to write in a single penny of expected revenue from speed camera, and any revenue must be written in at the year end as general proportional tax credit for the citizens, and by citizens I mean the ones who paid the taxes to build the road in question; in the case of an Interstate, all the money goes to the federal government.
    4. penalty for noncompliance is loss of eligibility for election or work in any goverment owned or controlled entity. If the decision was taken by a committee, all the members willbe subject to said penalty.

    If you implement all these resolutions, the political morons will not put speed camera in place, because, to all intent and purposes, they cannot spend the money; to actually spend the speed tickets income as they like, they must first pass a rise in other taxes to accomodate that income, receive it, spend it , and then use the ticket fund to lower the taxation again without being able to move that money about at will. Moreover, they'll have to fight to own the roads, meaning being responsible for the upkeep, and liable for any defect.

    --
    "If a boss demands loyalty, give him integrity. But if he demands integrity, give him loyalty." (John Boyd, 1927-1997)
    1. Re:Example in Italy, and a simple solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nobody ever suggests this, but maybe just don't speed. If nobody ever exceeded the speed limit except in a genuine emergency situation, there wouldn't be a rationale for this kind of response. I understood perfectly well why people would not want to obey the 55MPH speed limit on roads and in cars that were designed for 70, but now those places _do_ have a very reasonable and realistic 75MPH limit anyway. We're talking about surface streets in a very urban area, where the speed limit *should* be very low, and where large numbers of people choose to ignore that.

    2. Re:Example in Italy, and a simple solution by Culture20 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nobody ever suggests this, but maybe just don't speed.

      You've never driven in almost any downtown street where they've timed the lights to be green only if you're traveling 3-5 miles per hour over the speed limit. If you don't speed, you get stuck at almost every light. But the cops know this, because when they're not camping those streets, they're traveling at 3-5mph over the speed limit with the rest of the traffic.

  10. How to disable these cameras for cheap by Mars+Saxman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A friend of mine discovered that it is trivially easy to blind one of these cameras.

    From his local grocery store, he bought an empty sprayer bottle and some white glue (like Elmer's); this cost like three bucks. He mixed up a 1:1 solution of glue and water, then screwed his sprayer bottle's nozzle to the "stream" mode.

    My friend started carrying one of those reusable grocery bags to the store. He'd just leave the sprayer bottle in it. Every time he went to the store, he'd walk up behind the red-light camera, stand just underneath it but still outside its field of vision, and then spray glue all over the lens.

    Note that the red light camera systems usually have two cameras: one is a video camera, mounted higher up, which does detection; the lower camera is a high-res still camera, designed to capture the image of the license plate. You don't need to bother with the video camera; just blind the still camera. The system will still keep running, but the photos will be all blurred out and unusable.

    My friend said that he'd walk by the camera two or three times a week, and the lens was usually cleaned off by the time he came back. That means that the red-light camera company was sending someone out to clean it, over and over, every week, costing the company lots of money.

    My friend told me that someone once approached him in the grocery store and asked what he had been doing; they'd seen him spraying the camera and were curious what he was up to. When he explained how easy it was to disable a red-light camera, the person was delighted and decided to go start doing it herself, too.

    1. Re:How to disable these cameras for cheap by Golddess · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or you could just not run red lights

      Maybe the particular intersection is one where the length of the yellow light has been shortened?

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
  11. Re:what's a mob without pitcforks and torches? by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 5, Informative

    The accepted method in the UK is to loop an old tire over the camera, fill it with gasoline, and set fire to it.

    http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2.htm

  12. Re:Then they came for me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes. Breaking the law is always reckless. Well said, comrade.

    I once sat at a red light that refused to change for five hours before finally a police officer came and granted me permission to go across the otherwise empty intersection. And rather than go a perfectly safe 5MPH over the speed limit, I always drive 5MPH under the speed limit to make sure I don't ever, ever cross over. And I have my speedometer calibrated weekly. I also check to make sure my signals are working every time I get in the car. Sometimes, on trips lasting more than 5 minutes, I'll pull over into a parking lot and check my signals again.

    Can you believe there are maniacs out there who don't do these things?!

  13. Re:Don't speed. by JeanCroix · · Score: 3, Insightful

    something that's supposed to be an informed estimation of the maximum safe rate of travel under ideal conditions (high visibility, dry pavement, etc.).

    This is the part where you're several decades out of touch. As has been demonstrated in numerous jurisdictions with shortened yellow lights, arbitrarily reduced speed limits in areas with heavy enforcement are a well-known cash cow as well. Ever driven through a "safety corridor" with a 10mph lower limit than the surrounding freeways, even though it has the exact same road conditions and traffic levels? It's not about safety, it's about money. If it were about safety, ALL the highways would be lowered by 10mph. But then they wouldn't know where to put the speed traps. Incidentally, I do slow down for those corridors, despite all the cars whizzing past me. And despite your herp UR A SPEEDUR derp, I haven't been pulled over for speeding since 1991. Being against speed cameras doesn't make one a speeder, any more than being against the Patriot Act makes one a terrorist.