Disaster Strikes Norwegian Government Web Portal

An anonymous reader writes "Altinn.no is a web service run by the Norwegian government, on which citizens can find, fill out and deliver forms electronically. Every year Norwegian citizens can also log in to check their tax results. This year, as every year, the site was unable to cope with the traffic generated from everyone wanting to check their taxes at the same time. New this year, however, was that once people were finally able to log in, a significant amount of people were logged in as someone else. Users then had access to all financial data of this unfortunate person over two years back in time, in addition to the financial information of his wife and the company he worked for. Altinn shut down some 15 minutes later, and has been down since."

Comments

Remember how they file their taxes

[mjensen]

by the government sending them a letter saying how much is owed.

The government does all the calculations.

Re:Remember how they file their taxes

[ThatsMyNick]

Which is good, right? For 90% of citizens, govt calculation is good enough. The only reason it is not being implemented in the US is because of the lobbying of Tax processing services.

Re:Remember how they file their taxes

[neyla]

That's not entirely true. What happens is this:

The government sends you a form for filing taxes, the form is pre-filled with those values that have already been reported by other entities, but next to every one of these values there is a field for correcting the value if it is somehow wrong. (this happens if, for example, you've got private debts, or if your employer makes a mistake in reporting)

You thus get a pre-filled form, but you should nevertheless check that the values on the form look correct before filing it.

And yes, the form also contains calculations on taxes, thus it says: "assuming we got it correct, here's what your tax will be", but that part, offcourse, will change if you add or change anything on the form.

Re:Remember how they file their taxes

[txoof]

The Norwegian government had to recalculate my taxes and my wife's taxes no less than three times. They have the power to deposit money and withdraw it from my bank account. I tried to work out their calculations, but not being a native Norwegian speaker, I struggled to understand how they were doing things. I just have to trust that things are correct.

The Norwegian government always seems to do what they say they will, they just do it in their own time and usually with six or eight tries to do it right...

Re:Remember how they file their taxes

[cbope]

Basically the same here in Finland. You get a pre-filled tax form in the mail. "Doing my taxes" every year takes no more than 5-10 minutes; checking the values are correct on the form, logging into the tax authority website, making corrections if needed (never needed to), adding deductions as needed, and then submitting it electronically. I even know when I will get my refund way ahead of time. The refund goes straight into my bank account automatically, I don't need to do anything. It's all very easy and simple to understand, even for a layperson without a finance degree.

I don't need a paper record, it's all on file electronically. I only need receipts if I have significant, large deductions.

It is FAR better than the system in the US, where a complete racket has been built up in the form of "tax services", and making the tax laws so complicated and full of loopholes that the average EDUCATED person cannot figure it out in 10 minutes or less. There is a serious problem when you need professional tax services or an accountant to do your personal taxes. I say this as an American living abroad for the past 12 years, so I have much experience with both systems.

Back to the OP, wow... it looks like the tax authority really screwed this up. However, that doesn't change my view that it's still the best way to handle taxes. Mistakes can and do happen in any system. Luckily the issue was discovered rather quickly and they made the correct decision and took the system offline.

Re:Remember how they file their taxes

[Oswald]

The IRS does indeed re-calculate everything. Last year they added a form to my return I had forgotten to file (but realized I was going to have to re-file shortly after sending in my return) that saved me $1000. It's the second time the processing agent has been extremely decent about handling my return, and I honestly cannot corroborate any of the horror stories that people spread about the IRS.

Re:erm... whoops?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been very briefly reported that this was related to a caching error. This guy's information was apparently cached and then served to everyone.

Re:erm... whoops?

[Skapare]

threaded app server + global who_is_logged_in variable = big mess

Some key points

[Anonymous Coward]

* The government has spent on the order of $200 millions on this system
* Accenture is the main developer
* Every year the systems go down because it doesn't scale
* This year a queueing system was put in place to "fix" scalability
* From an outsider's view at least, it would seem like some cowboy decided to put up a Varnish-type frontend cache as a desperate measure to handle traffic with no thought given to sessions
* An independent report basically slaughtered most of the systems with criticism of flaws last year, which was kept secret until a week ago
* Also yesterday someone found several flaws which allowed any website to grab a json(?) script and steal userinfo if the browser had a valid session

Re:Some key points

[rmstar]

And why did the Norwegian Government accept the system, if it was this buggy?

That's anyones guess, but if it goes like everywhere else, the guys that were contracted for this work wore the nicest suits and made their clients feel visionary. The guys that knew their IT kept behaving improperly and had suits that didn't really fit them well. Also, they talked all the time of risks and danger. So it was a no-brainer, quite literally.

Re:Some key points

[Terrasque]

This is actually a huge system, with many govt departments using it daily, and most of the time it works well. It's just that each year, when the rest of Norway also tries to log in, things go kaboom (That has happened several years in a row, I might add). The name, Altinn can be translated to all-in - it's basically THE portal between govt and citizens on many points. For example accountants use it daily (and every year they complain that they can't do anything at all for several days when this happens)

So, most of the time it works (and works well, some might say), but a few days every year it's massively underscaled. This year, they apparently tried some half-baked emergency caching, which failed spectacularly.

Re:Some key points

[Splab]

They should have called up their Danish brothers in arms - we had the exact same failure here some years ago. Skat.dk kept going down, so they added loadbalancers but the way they assigned keys ended up with collisions and gave users access to other peoples data.

Re:I hope Kenneth collects on this

[FireFury03]

I foresee a large lawsuit settlement in his future

This isn't the USA

Re:erm... whoops?

[93 Escort Wagon]

From the people in charge: "This person visited 18:17 and checked his tax return, and for some reason or another there was an error in the system, and this page entered the so-called cache memory of our servers, where it doesn't belong". You can try to decipher from that what you will.

In other words, either the person who wrote that didn't know what he/she was doing, or else a manager got involved in the software design decisions and forced the programmer to incorporate a blazingly stupid idea.

In either case, someone probably said something vague about "saving cycles" and everyone else nodded.

Re:erm... whoops?

[AK Marc]

It's simple. They got slashdotted last year. So, this year they did all they could to end the problem. Likely, they used SSL for security. And for anything high-traffic, you put an SSL proxy in front of the servers. Servers, be they Linux or otherwise, take a much bigger hit with encryption than dedicated security boxes, like F5. So they had some proxy in front of the servers. I've put similar in place in New Zealand for the IRD, and I'd expect that the IRS uses F5 in front of their secure web sites. And dedicated proxy devices, like Blue Coat, also do SSL offload. So, mis-configuring a proxy used for SSL offload would easily serve a cached page, after all, that's its primary purpose, the SSL offload was an afterthought.

That's what happens when you have a problem one year and throw money at it to fix it without a full understanding of the problem and the fix. I'd bet it was outsourced. And I bet they outsource it again next year. I could do better for a lower cost, wouldn't be hard to do better than their performance the last two years.

Cautionary tale about digital cash

[Compaqt]

When everybody's money is 'stored' in a government computer somewhere saying how much money you have, imagine what happens when there's a glitch putting your money in someone else's account.

Yeah, I know, bank accounts.

But, glitches happen there, too. At least you have a little cash to get to and from the bank to pursue the matter. When it's digital all the way down, what will you do?

Re:'private' financial data

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok - so the deal is this: For everyone in Norway, you can check 3 vital numbers: Amount earned, amount taxed and amount owned of every year. The number are skewed somewhat since they do not cover the full value of your house, it is after certain deductions on your salary, it is with your loans deducted from what you own, etc, but in essence it can give you a ballpark on how much money someone earns.

So, why is this? One of the major reasons is to ostracize anyone that pay little tax as compared to what they earn/own. So you would not need to ask your presidential candidate for his tax record - it is already online: http://skatt.bt.no/skattelister/9397621/Jens%20%20Stoltenberg *. You would also at once see it if your palace-owning neighbour had millions in earnings but payed nothing in taxes.

* This number is from 2009, you now have to login to a governmental site to be able to look up taxes for people. This is to stop malicious use of the numbers.

Not just the login error

[skurk]

I normally wouldn't care about this, but since the Norwegian government (i.e. the people, myself included) paid 1 billion NOK for this solution, I expect it to WORK. Mind you, this is not the first time we've had problems with Altinn, this has been a recurring drama the past few years. As the article states; every year they claim to be prepared, and every year they are unable to deliver.

We're not *that* many people in Norway (recently hit the 5 million mark), and certainly not that many adults checking their tax returns online. Guesstimate: 1 million? And how many checks it simultaneously? Let's be generous and say half.

So how the hell can a 175 million USD project not be able to deal with 500k visitors? It's a fucking joke.

Re:Public Data

[KjetilK]

That's not correct. Only the final sums are/were published after the affected person has had a chance to verify and correct the information. Here all his details were published, which is a severe violation of his privacy.

Re:erm... whoops?

[semi-extrinsic]

Mod parent Informative. They are actually using F5's Big Ip solution, from my snooping before it went down. And it was outsourced, to Accenture, who has such a good track record producing stable, efficient, Microsoft-based solutions.

What is even more funny, just last week, a report leaked in the Norwegian press about this very system being hastily implemented, poorly tested and perhaps insecure.

Learn from the Experts, ye tax-boggled folks!

[OKK77]

It is done similarly in über-effective, ultra-efficient Singapore:

1) Let's say I'm employed by company C. Company C will send to taxman my identity card number and the amount they have paid me for the tax year.
2) Taxman will do the calculation of tax. Taxman will also consider the recurring tax claims/rebates I am likely to have (spouse/parents-related rebates, for example).
4) Taxman sends me a reminder to confirm their calculations on their website.
5) I will adjust the calculations if needed and submit the final figure.
6) Taxman sends me the final amount of tax I need to pay with payment options including a 12-month instalment plan deducted from my bank account.
7) If I'm audited, I will have to provide documents for the claims/rebates.

Total time spent: about 1 hour (including claims for private insurance, education expenses, donations)
Total $$$ spent: ZERO, ZILCH, NADA!

Re:Learn from the Experts, ye tax-boggled folks!

[Randle_Revar]

Because most places know that a flat tax is horribly regressive. Anyway, it isn't the stepped rates that make the tax code complicated, it is all the loopholes, exceptions and deductions.

Re:Learn from the Experts, ye tax-boggled folks!

[Solandri]

Because most places know that a flat tax is horribly regressive.

Unfortunately, the terms "progressive" and "regressive" when applied to taxes have been hijacked from their mathematical roots for political purposes. A flat tax is by definition not regressive, it's flat. A regressive tax is one whose effective tax rate decreases with increasing income. A progressive tax is one whose tax rate increases with increasing income.

A flat tax does neither. It is flat. It is the same effective tax rate regardless of income.

Where people get the idea that it is regressive is by pointing out that a certain fixed minimum amount of money needs to be spent on essentials (food, clothing, shelter). Poor people have to spend a greater percentage of their income on these essentials. Which means they have a smaller percentage of their income available for discretionary (optional) purchases. A flat tax takes the same percentage bite out of income, which turns into a larger proportional bite out of the discretionary income of poor people. e.g. Say $10k is the minimum needed for essentials, and the flat tax is 10%. A poor person making $15k has $5k discretionary income but pays $2k in taxes. That's 40% of his discretionary income. A rich person making $100k has $90k discretionary income but pays $10k in taxes. That's 11% of his discretionary income.

However, this has nothing to do with a flat tax. It is easily corrected by excluding from taxation the minimum amount which needs to be spent on essentials. Something like the standard deduction which the U.S. uses. Once you do that, the flat tax is then a tax only on discretionary spending, and is the same rate regardless of income. It is not regressive. e.g. After a $10k standard deduction, the poor person pays 10% tax on $5k. The rich person pays 10% tax on $90k. Both are paying 10% on their discretionary income. It is flat.

(I actually prefer a progressive tax, but hate it when people call a flat tax regressive. It's not if you implement the simple work-around of a standard deduction.)

Re:Learn from the Experts, ye tax-boggled folks!

[Dusty101]

Although I can't comment on Norway from personal experience, I've had to complete tax forms in Finland, the UK and the USA.

The Finnish ones were genuinely trivial: check option A or option B, sign it, date it and send it back: done. The tax office there knew exactly what was going on, the money was transferred electronically and the only other piece of correspondence I received was a confirmation slip.

The British one was oh, a couple of sheets of A4 or so. Annoying, but manageable. The tax office there had actually issued it despite my not actually needing to file a manual return at all, so I had to fill it in with mostly zeroes and send it back. They initially seemed confused, and then just went quiet after a couple of clarifying conversations with people at the local office.

The USA one was about 6 or 7 forms (I never did work out how many in the end), all with accompanying small-print documentation which in turn contained references to additional supporting documentation that contained "calculation tables" to supposedly help me understand the supporting documentation, so that I could then go back and fill in the tax form itself, and all its add-on appendices. I was told that I had the option of supplying a shoe-box full of receipts that I should have been religiously collecting for the previous year, or I could just take some standard number. I was also told that if I filled the forms in by following the incorrect advice of an official of the tax office, I was still liable for any additional fines arising. I have a Ph.D. in astrophysics, so I'm not unfamiliar with mathematics and logic, and even I just went ahead and hired an accountant.

The USA's taxation scheme is far and away the most complex bureaucratic structure I have ever encountered. The 19th Century British Empire's mightiest bureaucrats would have wept in joy at its sheer scale and complexity. Kafkaesque doesn't begin to describe it.

Future possibilities by automated taxes

[KjetilK]

It is certainly very convenient, when it works. It feels kinda strange to trust every financial detail of my life to the government, so whether it is good in a real sense is a question I'm very open to debate. It does allow some very useful applications to be developed, with a very nice potential for streamlining interaction between government, citizens and private sector. This is actually very high on the government's agenda, which I'm happy about, because the bureaucracy is sometimes both heavy and heavy handed. If it is done well, it could potentially enable citizens to simulate possible choices in their lives before they make a decision: "If I do $that, the taxes will be $this". It would also enable an improved public debate: now it is a lot of bickering of the style "if you raise $that_tax, it will adversly effect $that_group" "no, it won't, but not doing it is required by $that_group". They're just making things up, of course, the debate is usually completely devoid of facts. Soon, it might be possible to simulate those scenarios on a regular basis, so we get real facts on the table before making a decision. Unfortunately, there's a long way from good ideas to actual implementations. I've been in meetings with the people who actually order these systems, and what can I say... Heads gotta roll to go anywhere... They're easily blinded by suits, and they have no idea what makes a robust system. So, for now, I'm not too confident it will happen, even though there are some very interesting ideas around.

Re:erm... whoops?

[toriver]

Accidenture living up to its nickname.

Re:erm... whoops?

[Vintermann]

> your property

Norway taxes that too, on the municipal level.

> your spending

Norway taxes this too: a sales tax (VAT) on the national level, at 25%. No, there is no decimal point missing there.

> your savings

Yup.

Silly Americans complaining about taxes, you haven't seen nothing!

(But actually, I don't think the overall taxation level in Norway is too high, though some of it is pretty regressive, e.g. the VAT)