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Judge Orders Oracle and Google To Talk, Again

Reader Fluffeh snips from and links to Ars Technica with the latest chapter in the ongoing Google vs. Oracle fight involving patents, Java, and Android, writing that executives at both companies were "'ordered to hold one last round of settlement talks no later than April 9th, with the trial over Google's alleged use of Java technology in Android set to begin April 16,' though '[t]he last-ditch effort to avoid a trial seems unlikely to succeed. ... Oracle initially accused Google of violating seven patents, but has since dropped most of them. This is due to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office ruling the patents described technology that was not patentable. Two patents assigned to the Oracle-owned Sun Microsystems remain: #6,061,520 which covers "an improvement over conventional systems for initializing static arrays by reducing the amount of code executed by the virtual machine to statically initialize an array," and #RE38,104 which covers a type of compiler and interpreter."

17 of 89 comments (clear)

  1. Only applies if static ctors are called clinit? by poizan42 · · Score: 2

    By skimming #6,061,520 it seems to me that google could go free from that one just by calling the static initializers something else than - I don't know if they already do that. But it somehow seems oddly specific that the patent explicitly says "clinit method(s)" instead of just saying static class constructors or something like that - like it's only targeting java without never mentioning java in the claims.

    1. Re:Only applies if static ctors are called clinit? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not really. Skimming the patent, it seems that it is describing a preprocessing stage where you try running all static constructors, record their results, and generate a simplified version. This would be equally applicable to C++ - if all that the constructor does in a global is touch memory then you can just record the memory layout and stick that in the executable. It's quite neat, but I'm not entirely sure it counts as non-obvious, because it's really just an application of constant propagation, which all compilers have done for decades.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  2. Patent office people are retarded. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is due to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office ruling the patents described technology that was not patentable.

    Then why did they have the patents in the first place? This just shows how big of a load of bullshit software patents are. Do they at least get their money back for the patents that are supposedly not patentable? I'd be pissed if I paid $25,000 and then the assholes tell me my patent is invalid.

    1. Re:Patent office people are retarded. by samjam · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, because the patents increase share price, so the $25,000 per patent was probably money well spent.

  3. When will patent thuggery end? by lostsoulz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It seems that IT news is dominated by A litigating against B (lawyers get rich.) C takes on D in a bunch of jurisdictions and has products pulled from shelves (lawyers get rich and consumer choice suffers a hiccup.) Much of the litigation is driven by US tech firms. As a European, I realise our legal systems are less than perfect, but I'd like to understand more about the motivation (beyond $$ alone,) for such active lawyering. Maybe it's all about $$...but isn't everyone getting bored with this?

    1. Re:When will patent thuggery end? by erroneus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We've sent most of our industry elsewhere. Now we have lawyers and MBAs running the nation. What did you think was going to happen?

    2. Re:When will patent thuggery end? by jonwil · · Score: 4, Informative

      It depends on the company.
      Some companies just want royalties paid on their patent (e.g. the MPEG patents)
      Other companies want royalties plus limits on behavior (e.g. Microsoft v Android where Microsoft is rumored to be telling Android vendors what they aren't allowed to do if they want to use Microsoft patents)
      Some companies want the infringing product gone completly (Apple v Samsung) and wont even consider licensing.

    3. Re:When will patent thuggery end? by petermgreen · · Score: 2

      Well since these are publicially traded companies it is usually about money (though i'm sure pride sometimes has an impact too). The main question is whether it is directly about money (judgements/settlements) or indirectly about money (squashing competition and/or forcing them to raise prices).

      I think in this case it's pretty directly about money. SUN's model for java was that the desktop/server versions (J2SE/J2EE) are free but the mobile/embedded versions (J2ME) cost money. Google built the android UI/app system around a variant of java (same language but different VM and bytecode format) without using any of suns code in andriod itself (though I beleive they do use sun tools for development) and in the process basically killed J2ME (and it's associated revenue). Sun/oracle didn't like this and decided to throw all the patents they had at google, unfortunately for them (fortunately for google and android users) most of them didn't stick.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  4. When it's not profitable by walterbyrd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As it is, patents have a fantastic ROI. How much has Apple profited by keeping Samsung off the market with Apple's "rounded corners" patent?

    Patents allow you to turn $50K into $50 million. Where else can you get an ROI like that? Maybe lobbying.

    1. Re:When it's not profitable by gl4ss · · Score: 2

      As it is, patents have a fantastic ROI. How much has Apple profited by keeping Samsung off the market with Apple's "rounded corners" patent?

      Patents allow you to turn $50K into $50 million. Where else can you get an ROI like that? Maybe lobbying.

      fantastic thing about them is that the roi can't be measured. so they can hog all credit. apple vs. samsung didn't probably affect the sales all that much at all. for a little while, in germany they did. but sales profits lost/gained for both companies are probably less than a nice mercedes benz costs(different people buying them + if you really wanted a tab you could have one sent to germany easily). while lawyer costs, costs for state etc are higher.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  5. Some companies, like Google, are not evil about it by walterbyrd · · Score: 2

    It spite of Microsoft's smear campaign about Google, I don't think anybody is calling Google a patent scam aggressor.

  6. Re:than does not equal then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Listen, PAL. Timothy has a JOURNALISM DEGREE. He is VERY smart. You shouldn't bother the resident genius with such pedantic trolling, for the rest of his content is superb.
     
    Oh, wait...

  7. How is this patentable? by bertok · · Score: 4, Interesting

    At first, I assumed that this was about some complex algorithm like finding the greatest common subsets in a large set of static values or something similarly esoteric, but nope, it's trivial:

    The preloader identifies all <clinit> methods and play executes these methods to determine the static initialization performed by them. The preloader then creates an expression indicating the static initialization performed by the <clinit> method and stores this expression in the .mclass file, replacing the <clinit> method. As such, the code of the <clinit> method, containing many instructions, is replaced by a single expression instructing the virtual machine to perform static initialization, thus saving a significant amount of memory. The virtual machine is modified to recognize this expression and perform the appropriate static initialization of an array.

    It's so trivial that you don't even need to read the body of the patent to completely understand it! I can even boil it down to just three words: compile-time memoization,

    Not only that, but this is hardly a concept unique to Java, there's even a Wiki article for it! Maybe Oracle should sue the inventors of the D Language, and the C++ committees too while they're at it, because if you use template meta-programming to initialise a static variable, then you've infringed -- or close enough anyway to be sued into bankruptcy.

    The reason few (if any) compilers used static initializer memoization before 1998 is because most of the commonly used general-purpose languages with a concept of "static" weren't safe back then, so the compiler couldn't execute small arbitrary chunks of code without risking a crash or strange side-effects. The only reason Java could introduce this feature is because of a convenient side-effect of compiling a safe language -- not because someone had invented either compile-time evaluation, memoization, or the combination of the two. That, and nobody had over-used static values sufficiently while simultaneously caring enough about startup performance to bother implementing such a complex feature given the marginal performance advantage. You could probably demonstrate prior art by just pointing out that most compilers evaluate constant expressions at compile time, so "static int foo = 5 + 5" is basically the same thing as what the patent is claiming.

    How did "of the people, by the people, for the people" turn into "of the inept, by the litigious, for the corrupt"?

  8. what? by tsalaroth · · Score: 2

    "an improvement over conventional systems for initializing static arrays by reducing the amount of code executed by the virtual machine to statically initialize an array,"

    What the hell? How is this one patent-worthy? so wait, refactoring is patented?

    1. Re:what? by berashith · · Score: 2

      so the patent itself admits to prior art, but that this way is better. The phrase "an improvement" should mean that anyone else coule use the idea and just " but ours is one better". Another improvement is apparently an entirely different concept and previous patents cannot be applied or considered.

    2. Re:what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      People misunderstand how prior art works in patent law. Patent law allows for patententing improvements over an existing method, regardless of weather the original method is patended or not (providing, of course that if patented, you have a license). People also forget that while being inventive necessitates being innovative, the inverse is not true, they are no synomyms.

      It's the whole point of the patent system, Sun came upon an existing method, and figured out (read: innovated) a better way to do it, and that's entirely legit. Prior art is not some kind of magical silver patent invalidating bullet.

      It irks me amost as much as people who don't differentiate between trademark law with patent law, you get to choose who is and is not allowed to use your patent and under what terms, it's not like trademark law where you have to sue everyone to keep it.

      "derp derp why don't they sue x and y over z? lol *smug*" because they get to choose who they sue and who they don't.

  9. Re:patent insanity by Pieroxy · · Score: 2

    Make no mistake, there's no flirting going on here ;-)