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1.9 Billion Digits: Brazil's Bid For Biometric Voting

MatthewVD writes "Brazil is on a massive fingerprinting spree, with the goal of collecting biometric information from each of its 190 million citizens and identifying all voters by their biological signatures by 2018. The country already has a fully electronic voting system and now officials are trying to end fraud, which was rampant after the military dictatorship ended. Dissenters complain that recounts could be impossible and this opens the door for new kinds of fraud. Imagine this happening in the U.S."

26 of 140 comments (clear)

  1. Sounds like by Xandrax · · Score: 2

    Sounds like an excellent opportunity for the government to gather fingerprints of all its citizens "for their own good". After all, election fraud is bad...almost "It's for the children!" bad.

    Of course, a smarter government would find a way to require DNA samples, rather than simple fingerprints, "to prevent election fraud".

    1. Re:Sounds like by marcosdumay · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the Brazilian Government was just a bit organized, it would already have the fingerprint of everybody. It already collects them, and several times. It is just one more collection.

      By the way, I just don't get the antagony some people have about the government cadastrating people. No, it doen't lead to retriction of freedom, and is not necessary for that.

    2. Re:Sounds like by TrekkieGod · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sounds like an excellent opportunity for the government to gather fingerprints of all its citizens "for their own good". After all, election fraud is bad...almost "It's for the children!" bad.

      Of course, a smarter government would find a way to require DNA samples, rather than simple fingerprints, "to prevent election fraud".

      It is an escalation, but Brazil already had fingerprints on all citizens. I remember my ID card, the one the article mentioned their replacing with the new biometric stuff, had my thumbprint. (Contents of the card)

      Now I'm older, and I grew up in the US and actually care about this kind of stuff as a result of the culture shift. That said, I can tell you that Brazilians tend to not give much thought to the government having that information. At least my mother and her family don't, and I'm under the impression they're representative of the general population in that regard.

      --

      Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

    3. Re:Sounds like by alexgieg · · Score: 2

      By the way, I just don't get the antagony some people have about the government cadastrating people. No, it doen't lead to retriction of freedom, and is not necessary for that.

      This depends on culture. It doesn't really matter when there's no persecution of certain groups nor any prospect of there ever been one, but when something like this exists, or is a concrete possibility, it matters a lot. The typical example is Nazi Germany, whose persecution of Jews was perhaps hundreds of times more effective than it'd have been for the sole reason Germany had extensive, very precise information on who was a Jew and where, exactly, all of them lived.

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    4. Re:Sounds like by alexgieg · · Score: 4, Informative

      Several times? What are they?

      When you make your National ID card you must give them (all ten fingers), as well as anytime you renew it, for any reason, be it because it was stolen, because you lost them, or because it's time to renew it, which is once every 10 years (although you usually only discover it's time to renew it when you try to open a bank account and someone tells you your ID is void). The same goes for your passport, which is valid for 5 years, although most people don't have one, so this one is optional.

      Don't people refuse to give them, or or use fake fingerprint skins to defeat the system?

      Nope. Brazil has no recent history of extensive persecution of minorities, so the huge majority of the population doesn't mind.

      Brazil has always seemed to me like the next fascist superpower, going beyond China.

      Ah, I don't think so. People here mostly don't care about anything political, at all. And the governing parties, all of them, are corrupt in a purely non-ideological way, interested solely in money above anything and everything else. This isn't the kind of scenario that leads to fascism. Besides, when we had a fascist party, way back, it was as odd in its "fascistness" as anything that happens around here. I remember reading once a text by its founder, I don't remember his name, criticizing then Nazi Germany and fascist Italy for persecuting Jews and foreigners. Go figure...

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    5. Re:Sounds like by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2

      The typical example is Nazi Germany, whose persecution of Jews was perhaps hundreds of times more effective than it'd have been for the sole reason Germany had extensive, very precise information on who was a Jew and where, exactly, all of them lived.

      Closer to home, at least for most slashdotters, was the WWII interment of americans of japanese descent - where the US Census Bureau handed over their names and addresses to the US Secret Service who then rounded them up.

      What's more, such misuse of census data is (and was even then) forbidden, except that congress passed the war-powers act removiing those protections. Which goes to show that it does not matter what someone promises to do (or not do) with your data, if they have it, sooner or later they are going find a way to use it in ways that are not in your best interest.

      And in case anyone feels the need to trivialize the internment of these people as a temporary precaution - it was NOT temporary. While they were gone, many of them had their property (land and other assests) confiscated or otherwise stolen so that when they were finally released, many were impoverished. We didn't send them to the gas chambers, but we were only marginally less cruel than the people we were fighting.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    6. Re:Sounds like by lehphyro · · Score: 2

      I can tell you that Brazilians tend to not give much thought to the government having that information.

      The general public in the world doesn't give much thought to anyone having that information.

    7. Re:Sounds like by marcosdumay · · Score: 2

      Since they are going to all this trouble it would seem that the prior collections of prints are useless in this encoding process, and a real finger is needed.

      Quite likely. Also, no data is trusted above electoral data, thus the government can't use police's data for electoral porpouses.

      Presumably the new finger printing is simply encoded and placed on some form of voter id card, which you must present when you want to vote.

      Nope. The data is stored at the voting machine. There is a central database, but as you guessed, the voting machines are required to be able to work offline (they only connect into a network to send the results. Even then, it is just for antecipating things, the offline collected results are the ones that count).

  2. Re:A semi-Marxist state with voter ID? by Carlos+Laviola · · Score: 2

    This is about Brazil, not Cuba. There isn't an inch of Marxism in our government system.

  3. digits == fingers, not numerals by ClickOnThis · · Score: 4, Informative

    The article refers to digits as in those things at the ends of our hands, not numeric digits. So, the actual amount of data will be far bigger than 1.9 billion numeric digits. Nothing they can't handle, of course.

    --
    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
  4. Re:GODDAMNIT by marcosdumay · · Score: 5, Informative

    It is because of that anonimity requirement.

    Anonimity makes it impossible to make a secure (in the mathematical sense) election. The best we can do is to make the flaws hard to exploit, what is a completely diferent problem from securing an ATM.

  5. Re:TF2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    In Brazil the fingerprint is already available to law enforcement. The Brazilian identity card already has it printed on the back
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_identity_card

  6. Re:Dead people voting? by tnk1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Until they decompose, dead people still have finger prints. Don't worry about Chicago, they are probably well stocked with cryogenic freezing facilities for the storage of digits, as needed.

    And of course, let's not forget that I think the Mythbusters proved it's pretty easy to fake out fingerprint scanners with some putty and a little bit of spit.

  7. Re:TF2 by fredprado · · Score: 2

    The ID Card only contains the Thumbprint, but the card you fill to get the ID, which stays with the government, contains the fingerprint of all your fingers for both hands.

  8. A voting machine is better than paper by davide+marney · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I am a poll worker, and my precinct uses electronic voting machines. The thing most people don't realize is that very, very few elections are close enough to trigger an automatic recount. In my state, the votes have to be within 1% of each other for a recount. Since the 1800s, for example, only 3 senatorial races in my state were close enough.

    If you want to optimize the accuracy of an election, you need to focus on the vast majority of races that aren't recounts. To spend all your time and effort building the perfect system for recounting is, as they say, to make the perfect the enemy of the good. People on slashdot, especially, trumpet the advantages of a paper ballot, because it can be recounted.

    Let me tell you the problems with paper. Paper is not a nice medium to use to count anything. It gets torn, smudged, creased, turned around upside down and backwards, lost, and sticks to other paper. Marking is difficult, even if done with a physical machine (hanging chads) or with a scanner (in the Illinois primary, the ballots wouldn't fit into the feeder unless they were trimmed 1/16th of an inch.) Don't even talk about markings done by hand.

    If you want to count something accurately, you use a computer to do it with. No one expects that if you have a spreadsheet sum 3,000 integers 10,000 times in row that you will wind up with a different answer. Do that with paper and people, and you WILL have a different answer -- lots of them.

    Computers are also easier to use than paper. They have an interactive interface. They can ask the voter to confirm their vote. They can change the size of the typeface on the fly.

    So, if you want the most accurate vote with the best experience, you want a computer, every time. Now, on to the hard problem: how do you tell if the computer is cheating? Well, you don't need paper to tell if a computer is broken; you just need a reliable QA test. Black-box testing is the heart of modern software quality control. We don't insist that our accounting programs print us a receipt for everything. Why do we trust accounting software, but not voting software?

    What's needed is to bring the same quality assurance controls to electronic voting machines that we do to accounting programs. Let people have their interactive GUIs, let the poor poll workers have a system that is proven to count accurately every time. This is what would optimize voting for the vast majority of races.

    --
    "We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
    1. Re:A voting machine is better than paper by bussdriver · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, I've been involved in a recount and I have a lot of computer experience plus some experience in security and forensics and I say PAPER is the only way forward. Yes, hand counts are dull and take a lot of labor; it is a small price to pay (especially compared to those who die defending democracy.)

      Your post is almost entirely distracting side issues without addressing the core problem.

      As Stalin said, "It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes." You think merely by having the people who count the votes 1 step removed from directly counting the votes makes things safer? WRONG.

      It is not a machine counting the votes anymore than a gun kills a victim-- it is the person behind the machine that does it. Do not be so literal minded. The machine, like a firing squad, hides which person actually did it, they themselves may not even know.

      You put that accounting computer out on the internet and tell everybody it can not make mistakes and publish the IP address. Lets see how well it works in the real world (not to mention how much better secured your PC likely is over most voting machines I've seen or read about.)

  9. Re:Imagine?! by feedayeen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Brother Jeb Bush, and friends ring a bell?

    The debacle of the 2000 Florida election was because of paper ballots. If it was illegitimate (I am taking no position on this regard), then it proves that you don't need an electronic system to steal the election if there is systematic corruption already in place. Having an electronic election doesn't help or hurt election fraud in this case, however it does remove a few hundred (thousand?) people involved in counting/reading ballots, each of whom could be corrupt.

  10. Re:Imagine?! by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Having an electronic election doesn't help or hurt election fraud in this case, however it does remove a few hundred (thousand?) people involved in counting/reading ballots, each of whom could be corrupt.

    It removes many who individually could have only a marginal impact on the results while at the same time increasing the size of the "lottery" - such that it is now:

    a) Possible for a single invidiual with the right access to corrupt the entire election
    b) Do it with much less chance of getting caught because purging an electronic audit trail is a million times easier than covering up physical ballot stuffing at thousands of polling stations

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  11. Re:When the people fear their government by TrekkieGod · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A wise man once said: "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

    The point of that saying is that governments should be easily overthrown (which is actually the entire point of having elected officials. When they start pulling crap like asking citizens to be fingerprinted, you overthrow the government by electing a brand new one. The newly elected officials would then fear introducing similar legislation and then no longer being re-elected. In practice, the people are far too apathetic for the system to work that well, but as Churchill put it, "Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.")

    Btw, I, as a brazilian, must say that the quote "Imagine this happening in the US" was VERY offensive to me.

    As a fellow Brazilian, I can tell you that Brazilians have an unfortunate tendency to be very easily offended for no reason at all. In fact, the fact that I pointed this out probably offended you.

    I grew up here in the US, South Carolina to be exact, and all the statement is accurate. You're just missing some cultural background on the American thought process. People here are, in general, very anti-government. All that was meant is that If the federal government suggested fingerprinting everyone here, there would be a huge backlash. In fact, not too long ago there was a federal law passed (the REAL ID Act that would require state identification cards and driver's licenses to pass certain requirements to function as a federal ID card (we don't have a carteira de identidade as in Brazil, there is no federal ID card). The backlash was such that 25 states have passed some type of legislation vowing to not participate in the program. And they don't even require fingerprints, just full name, signature, date of birth, gender, a unique identification number (which was the cause for most of the backlash), address, and a photograph.

    There's a lot of things I don't agree with in American culture (like the general lack of interest and trust in science), but I do wish Brazilians would adopt some of the very, very healthy distrust of government.

    Oh, and english is not my native language, but come on, the topic is just wrong: "1.9 billion digits" does not make sense.

    It's digits as in "digitais". The population of Brazil is approximately190 million, assuming everyone has 10 fingers (or digits), you arrive at that number.

    --

    Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

  12. Re:Imagine?! by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What it does, whether actual fraud takes place or not, is to open the door to allegation of fraud that cannot be refuted.

    I don't know about your country, in mine, every party that participated in the election has the right to call for a recount (at their expense) and send representatives to supervise that recount. Supervising such a recount is trivial. The skills needed by a superviser include being able to identify where a cross has been made on a slip of paper and being able to count paper slips. The average 6 year old should be able to do that with some certainty.

    That's not the case with e-voting. It all starts with being unable to tell whether every vote was counted correctly in the first place. Was every vote placed where the voter made his "cross"? With pen-and-paper elections, you have a physical slip of paper that is tossed into the voting bin by the person who votes. The voter goes into the booth, he makes his cross, he comes back out and he dumps a piece of paper himself into the box, under the eyes of representatives of every participating party. The box has been throughly inspected by them all to make sure it's empty before it was sealed, again with them identifying the seal, and they again are there when that seal is broken and the counting starts. There is simply NO way you could possible remove or add any votes illegally.

    Not so with electronic booths. Was the "box" empty? And even if, does the box only count every vote once? It's trivial to multiply datasets, how can I know for sure that the code doesn't do that? I can audit it? Let's assume I cannot, like more than 99% of the people out there. Why should I trust you, auditor? Maybe you're in with them and get a ton of money to shut up about their fraud? And how should I recount? I don't even know if the votes you present to me were real because there is no paper slip being tossed into the box, let alone by the voter himself. Did you make dead people vote? Or how do you explain the suspiciously high voter turnout this time?

    The problem isn't fraud alone. It's that you cannot simply debunk allegations of fraud easily. Today, you cry foul? Here's the ballots, you can see where the cross was made, you can count, go ahead and check. Your party member has been there all the time and he saw that our box was legit. It's trivial to check either for any person without handicaps. I'd wager about 99% of the voters could easily recount today and be part of the process that ensures that no fraud can happen.

    With electronic voting, more than 99% cannot.

    And now convince those 99+% that you have been elected legally when the losing parties cry foul and you cannot prove them wrong without reasonable doubt.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  13. Re:Imagine?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    In Brazil, every single party or entity (like universities, etc) has access to the full source code for the elecion systems, terminals and servers. The code is digitally signed by all those parties and any of them can ask for an independent audit. Random voting machines with printers are also spread out the country. Is there a room for fraud? Of course, no system is 100% secure but so far, no fraud was detected. With so many eyes looking at the whole process, nowadays only conspiracy theorists think there's been any fraud.

  14. As a Brazilian, I'll give you the context by acid06 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    1) Here in Brazil, mostly everyone trusts the e-voting systems.

    It's much much better than the paper ballots which used to end up in rampant fraud in smaller cities, since corruption is widespread. With the e-voting system, the only possible fraud is if the federal government wants to rig the elections (and does a *very* good job at it) neither the government or the opposing parties consider this an issue so, unless they're all colluding with each other (which would make the elections pointless anyway), I think it's reasonably safe. I actually worked for a year and a half in the IT dept. of the Elections Branch in my state and, with that knowledge, I trust the e-voting system.

    2) No one here really cares about providing personal data to third-parties. It's common to have to provide your RG (ID card number) and CPF number (something similar to SSN) at a store, when you're making a regular purchase such as shoes or a t-shirt. When designing any sort of IT system to store clients, etc, the CPF number is usually the natural primary key.

    Most people here think it's reasonable to collect fingerprints and no one cares when, for instance, the US consulate collects our fingerprints when we're getting our US Visa. Almost all our government documents (we have several: ID Card, CPF, "Voter's Card", Driver's License, Passport) have tons of personal data and fingerprints. This is a non-issue here.

    3) People here care about privacy only inside their homes. For instance, everyone (including me) thinks it's a good idea to install more CCTV cameras in some areas to stop crime. In some places, crime is a much more pressing issue than expectation of privacy in a public place. "Big Brother" reality shows are the top 1 programs on public TV, so I would say the next generation might even not care about privacy in their own homes.

    The rest of the world is very different from the US - just keep this in mind.

  15. Re:GODDAMNIT by Leafheart · · Score: 3, Informative

    We try to do what we can here to help with that. As the summary mentions, we had tons of problems during and after the military dictatorship in Brazil (payed by the US of course) in the 60s to 80s. On the early days of democracy, voting fraud was rampant, since it was the same basic politics of yore, now with a thin veil of democratic participation. Voting, before the fully e-vote system was rampant with fraud, and delays, Florida level of delays.

    We tried our best to make the e-vote machines and the election system as secure and transparent as possible, among what was done we have.

    • Voting registration is mandatory when you turn eighteen. When you do you receive a card and is assigned a voting station which is close to your home (if you move you can change). This allows every party to know, much ahead of time, how many votes are expected at each pooling station. To avoid extra votes.
    • There is no touch screen to deal with it. The voting is done on a numeric keyboard. You know prior hand, during the campaign the number for each candidate. So no fiddling with positioning to mark it for the other candidate.
    • The source code is open any political party has access to it. They recently ran a public audit\hacking of the system to search for flaws. They found one, which is getting fixed for the next election. And the bug was regarding anonymity( it was possible to de-scramble the vote order so i you have the order people voted you could know who voted for who. But you would have to breach in two fronts).
    • Before the election in a public ceremony the code is uploaded, checksumed, and the machines locked. So we know which code is in there.

    So yeah, not perfect, but it is so much better and safe than what we had on the paper ballot days, that noone wants to go back.

    --
    --- "When you gotta do something wrong. You gotta do it right. (Fighter)"
  16. Massive... this is nothing by lordbyron · · Score: 2

    We enrolled almost 150M in a 18 months in UID/Aadhaar. 180M is just the testing phase for a MASSIVE program. By 2018 UID will have covered almost all of the 1.2 Billion Indians and we are capturing all 10 fingers, both irises and a high resolution photo of every India deduplicated and verified. Now that is Massive.

  17. Re:Imagine?! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

    Amazingly enough, the researchers in this field are not completely obtuse.

    Often they are, because they miss the most important feature of any voting system: any member of the electorate must be able to verify the procedure. That means that any voting mechanism that relies on complex mathematics is inherently flawed because it means that you're likely to have under 10% of the electorate able to understand it, let alone prove that it is correct. This means that you end up with a small percentage of the population who are, in effect, responsible for deciding the elections.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  18. Re:Imagine?! by fgouget · · Score: 3, Informative

    In Brazil, every single party or entity (like universities, etc) has access to the full source code for the elecion systems, terminals and servers. The code is digitally signed by all those parties and any of them can ask for an independent audit.

    All they have access to is the code that purportedly is being run on the voting computers. But on election day they have no way to verify that the code that runs is the one they looked at and signed.

    With so many eyes looking at the whole process,

    What you see as 'so many eyes' I see as so few eyes. In a paper election anyone can verify the process and a significant fraction of the population actually does. In electronic voting very few people can verify anything. And in particular none of the parties or universities you mentionned above can do anything to verify that the election is fair.

    nowadays only conspiracy theorists think there's been any fraud.

    Most people don't claim there has been fraud. However what most researchers in the field and most computer scientists do say is that there is no way to know, that if fraud happens there won't be any proof anyway, and that electronic voting makes the voting process opaque.