Slashdot Mirror
Avian Flu Researcher Plans to Defy Dutch Ban On Publishing Paper
scibri writes "Ron Fouchier, one of the researchers involved in the controversy over whether to publish research on mutant versions of H5N1 bird flu, has said he plans to submit his paper to Science without applying for an export control license as demanded by the Dutch government. Failing to get the license means he could face penalties including up to six years in prison. Whether the paper falls under export-control laws is unclear. The Netherlands implements European Union (EU) legislation on export controls, which require an export permit for 'dual-use' materials and information — those that could have both legitimate and malicious uses — including those relating to dangerous pathogens. But the EU law allows an exception for 'basic scientific research' that is 'not primarily directed towards a specific practical aim or objective,' which Fouchier says should cover his work."
"everyone must take compulsory vaccine to avoid pandemic"
"those refusing will be held in 'quaranteen'"
Everybody else will become autistic.
Seriously, why the fuck would he announce beforehand that he is planning on doing something illegal. If he was so hell-bent on releasing the info, wouldn't he be concerned that forewarning the authorities might cause them to act first and prevent the release?
This story does not add up.
I salute him for risking prison, he's doing the right thing. Censorship is evil, research perhaps most of all.
"everyone must take compulsory vaccine to avoid pandemic"
"those refusing will be held in 'quaranteen'"
Everybody else will become autistic.
So long as the autistic folks remember to let everyone else out, then those who refused to take said vaccine will instantly conquer the world!
Of course, most of the fuss over (not) taking vaccines is simple hysteria (with a side of conspiracy theories), but since a few vaccines have actually caused problems in the past (epilepsy in a person I know, for example), there's no telling which part of this hysteria (if any) is justified, today. Ugh.
Government will try to paint a picture where the consequences of free association are worse than the consequences of oppression (yes, I said oppression) -- but those of us who think for ourselves already know the truth.
I'm guessing this respectable man (the scientist) thinks for himself. We need more of his type in this world, and less of the government type. MUCH less of the government type.
I'm amazed that it's taken this long for someone to do the right thing... and that the paper didn't end up on Wikileaks or similar a couple days after this controversy started.
Liberty in your lifetime
Yes, this is censorship. But think before you judge.
Just like there is a ban on sending information about nuclear systems around, the Dutch government wants to prevent him from sending information that can be used to threaten humanity itself. If there is an easy way to modify bird flu virus so it will become lethal to humans, then it is important to keep that information away from idiots who will abuse that knowledge to push a political or religious agenda. Let alone someone actually releasing such a virus in your country "to show the power of God/Allah/(your favorite fairytail here)"...
To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
It's not like the guy is saying,
"Tomorrow at 8:00AM I'm going to rob the First PanNational Bank of Metropolis and there's nothing you coppers can do to stop me."
Rather, he is saying,
"I am going to submit my scientific research to a well respected journal in my field. I do not consider that an illegal act. I do however understand that my research is considered dangerous by some, so I want to appear to be the reasonable person in this situation."
If you want to volunteer as a test case, it does make sense.
This could work both ways. It's true that this information is dangerous in the wrong hands, but I'm sure it will get out eventually. On the other hand, the information could be used to find a cure if more people had access to it. Imagine if there was an outbreak, and only a few people had the cure, do you think they would share it with the rest of the world?
-- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
The problem is one of the "slippery slope" variety however. While one can with fair reasonableness assert that the general public shouldn't have plans for WMDs, once put into law the definition of WMD would expand over time to include anything and everything that can be used to maintain the balance of power between government and governed.
Seems to me that the grant supporting the research came from the US so submission for publication in a US journal is pretty normal. I got some telescope time on a UK telescope and published in a UK journal as a result. It is hard to say I was exporting science to the UK when they built the telescope and instrument I used. And, if the journal Science is available in The Netherlands, as it is, how can it be said that the science has even left that country. Seems a little murky. At the least, it would be the journal, not the researcher, who is the publishing party and thus subject to this strange interpretation of export law.
Wouldn't that be most technology out there?
I mean, take anything and there's always a malicious use for it. A car can serve as transportation for someone (good), or as a quick getaway after committing a crime (bad).
The computer can be used to educate and communicate, or to create misery for others and steal (real cybercrime here). And that doesn't even involve the murkiness of copyright.
A camera can be used to document a crime, or to commit one (e.g., pedophillia creation).
A book can be used to educate, inform or provide entertainment, or to spread ugly rumors and how to make say, bombs to kill people.
Really - where's the line? This research can be used to spur new advances in medicine, or be used to create a mass plague.
Practically everything has a malicious use to it.
What is the goal of releasing that research? Is it going to help other scientists, if so how? We can't discuss if it's a good idea to release his research without knowing what are the benefits of doing so are.
Well we could and then wait until someone else discovers the same thing and releases it and we have no way to fight it because we couldn't study this guys original paper.
Probably more than to not shot you.
Fuck you. Golden Earring rocks!
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
The research indicated that H5N1 will likely become pandemic naturally. So, know we know that a vaccine is a priority.
Perhaps because he's a more accomplished person than you? Not that that is especially difficult...
This "dual use" clause is scrary and definitely highly ambiguous.
Where to put the line? Before you know it we can't export iron! After all you can make cars with it, but also guns. Or trucks: can be used for transporting both civilian or military goods. Or mobile phones: aren't they used to set off bombs?
And this example of raw materials is not far fetched, it is from direct personal experience: I'm in the business of trading plastic recycling materials out of Europe, and currently we basically can not ship to Malaysia as virtually all cargo has to undergo extra inspections by customs as it may be "dual use cargo". A few months ago there were no such problems.
I don't know why Malaysia is in the spotlight, just that it is, and that it's hindering general trade and commerce. And that's the result of this "dual use" argument.
" ... he plans to submit his paper to Science ... "
Where it will be hidden behind a paywall
Seriously, why the fuck would he announce beforehand that he is planning on doing something illegal. If he was so hell-bent on releasing the info, wouldn't he be concerned that forewarning the authorities might cause them to act first and prevent the release?
This story does not add up.
well, if the authorities stop him from releasing the information, it's not his fault, not his choice to bow down before vague pressure to not publish - then at least there would be court about it, if it's legal and where such research could be done and who can do it and which scientists end up with gagging orders for what reasons.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
My government consists of a bunch of idiots. Sending a scientific manuscript to a journal does not constitute the export of anything. For one because you don't get paid for it. In the interest of public opinion they put the word out that they will forbid publication and then afterwards try to find a halfway plausible legal reason.
The only thing that can be banned is the actual publication and this is upto the us government.
Democracy
Set your phasers on "funky"!
I'm not sure why everyone assumes this research is suddenly dangerous just because it exists. I find one of three scenarios likely.
1. The "terrorists" wouldn't understand the research and, therefore, wouldn't be able to do anything with it. So, no harm done and very little risk. Continue the research and our overall understanding.
2. The 'terrorists" have the people they need in their fold which can understand and do something with this research. Doesn't it stand to reason, then, that these same "terrorist" scientists could just do the same research on their own and produce similar results without this particular piece being published? "Oh! But it'll be easy for them now!". I don't really buy that one. If they wanted to do something along these lines they would have already.
3. The "terrorists" can now go recruit people that would understand and be able to do something with this research. Same scenario as number 2. They could have done this ages ago and done the research on their own.
I have a hard time believing that just because this paper is published it will be any easier for the bad guys to do harm.
yvan eht nioj
I am reading this not as a narrow legal dodge (it falls outside the laws) but as a broad claim of researching being able to freely publish scientific data without prior censorship, and thus a campaign of Civil Disobedience.
The point of Civil Disobedience is not to break unjust laws, it’s to change them. Read up on the theorist of your choice, but I am picking Gandhi’s Salt March. The idea is to state your case on why you think your action is just, announce you are doing it, then do it. The authorities then must public arrest you. Do it long enough, loud enough and the capricious law will crumble.
Anonymous Pirates take note. If you think IP laws should change (which I do), stand up and be counted, just don’t download the latest whatever. If you don’t do what you do with pride, people will just assume you are cheap unemployed people ripping off starving artistic.
And fuck the Americans too?
Initially the Dutch government had no problems with the scientists publishing their research.
It was the US government didn't want the paper to be published and they somehow made the Dutch government take the same stance on the issue.
(In Dutch) Article from University of Wageningen about the issue
nowhere is it stated that the MS will pass peer review and be accepted.
As a PI, I know that submission does NOT equal public dissemination, not by a long shot.
The paper shows a logical, possible, way that the virus could mutate in the wild.
Vaccines take a long time to develop, test, and manufacture, so you want to get ahead of the curve. Which means you want to do some ground work with your enemy. What can it do? How can it evolve, etc. Now we know.
The truth is, that AQ or other terrorists, are very likely to use Avian flu in an attack. The reason is that it can easily be converted to a weapon and then run around and spread it all through the west. And yes, AQ DOES know this. The last thing that needs to be done is give them more information that can be used to make it more effective.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I just can repeat what our boss (who is quite high in the scientific establishment in States) said about this guy.
"He is an idiot".
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
I hope the good doctor, his staff, and facility have world-class protection.
Because he just painted the world's largest "KIDNAP ME" target on his back.
Seriously - one breach and 50% of the world population dies.
That's not trivial.
Furthermore, because what prohibits anyone else to do research on the topic?
So for one... terrorists for sure won't try to publish their research.
And second, he probably has spent a good amount of time researching to be scooped by another researcher in another country that may not have the "exporting" issue.
Still, that doesn't mean is going to be published, and peer-reviewing will be in place, very likely if some consider is very interesting it will be published. Unless other hands wave at the paper and never gets published. (Yes, submitting doesn't mean publishing)
"rogue scientist unwittingly gives the terrorists their dream weapon"
Terrorists generally aren't too adept at molecular biology. Knowing the DNA sequence does not mean you'd be able to will it together in a functional virus. I'm a molecular biologist, and I wouldn't know where to start making this flu. Terrorists aren't even that advanced with conventional bombs. The 9/11 attacks, they didn't even actually HAVE a bomb, they just had box cutters and a promise that they did have a bomb.
While some government bent on censoring the internet obviously wouldn't care about the truth and might use it as an excuse anyway, it's also true that voters aren't too concerned about censoring the net anyway.
Why worry about science as an excuse, when saying "Child porn!" is a more effective cover for taking away free speech anyway?
Publish it on hundreds of Internet sites anonymously.
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
Isn't this the prequel to 'The Stand'? Folks create nasty super bug for research, then it gets loose. I doubt this would rise to the level of a 'Captain Tripps', but it sounds like it could be nasty.
I'd be more worried about some dumb bastard making a version of smallpox that acts like the GM'd Australian mousepox. 100% lethal in unvaccinated population and around 50% lethal in the vaccinated one.
Knowledge should not be locked up in some government office but free to the world.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Would you still be so "intellectually honest"?
and not self-righteous slashdot posters.
BTW: The governments involved know a thing or two about science. They've sponsored >90% of the science done in the world. You know where all those vaccines come from? government labs. There are thousands of people who work their asses off everyday in an endless war against disease. Those people *will* have access to any and all information necessary to do their jobs, because if they don't then people die. But those people also understand that you need to keep the cabinet with the Spanish flu vials in it fairly well locked up--because there are bad people out there.
Security through obscurity isn't perfect, but it works a *lot* better than no security. This isn't a fucking game, jackass, real lives are at stake.