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Harvard: Journals Too Expensive, Switch To Open Access

New submitter microcars writes "Harvard recently sent a memo to faculty saying, 'We write to communicate an untenable situation facing the Harvard Library. Many large journal publishers have made the scholarly communication environment fiscally unsustainable and academically restrictive. This situation is exacerbated by efforts of certain publishers (called "providers") to acquire, bundle, and increase the pricing on journals.' The memo goes on to describe the situation in more detail and suggests options to faculty and students for the future that includes submitting articles to open-access journals. If Harvard paves the way with this, how long until other academic bodies follow suit and cut off companies such as Elsevier?"

178 comments

  1. Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wow, and I thought I'd never see major universities become reasonable and do this in another decade.
    Good news indeed. It's not just money that is at stake, but the integrity of the scientific community.

    1. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This has nothing to do with universities being reasonable, it's just business. And the scientific community cares more about visibility and prestige, therefore if a professor can publish one or two papers in Science/Nature/Cell/whatever rather than five papers in open-access journals with lower impact factors then you can bet he'll take it. It's the university that pays, anyway, the academics get the prestige, which is measured by the impact factor, among other things.

    2. Re:Amazing by EL_mal0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not just prestige, it's promotion. In many cases their career and their wallet benefit more from those two papers in the high impact journal than the five in a lower impact one. There are some (sort of) legitimate reasons for this, but on the whole it's BS.

    3. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Somehow I see Elsevier et al. figuring out some way to sue schools doing this, or their libraries, for breach of contract, restraint of trade, somehow extending copyright from previously published research by professors to their new research publications (or quickly adding exclusivity terms to their contracts to keep professors from submitting to open license publications), etc.

    4. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Its just once rich institution (of lower learning) sticking it to another rich institution. Come on where is the rich envy here slashers?

    5. Re:Amazing by afidel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You say it's just business but I bet the entire Harvard library budget is smaller than a rounding error in Harvard's overall finances, their endowment is up to $32B and has been growing at over 12% per year for over 20 years.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    6. Re:Amazing by Hentes · · Score: 1

      Isn't it possible to publish in multiple journals?

    7. Re:Amazing by Defenestrar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're missing the point of impact factors. It's merely a representation of the average times any given article from the preceding two years has been cited in the current year. The values change all the time.

      So, we know that if a good paper gets published somewhere that people can find, it gets cited. If good authors (presumably Harvard has some of these) make a concerted effort to move to a different journal other than the typical Journal of discipline subject, then the new journal is going to get a lot of citations over the next two years; raising its impact while the old journal plummets. (Actually, the new journal will skyrocket, and the old one will gradually taper as it is forced to accept less stellar papers to maintain publishing quantities).

      Now where it gets interesting is when the Society of discipline subject, who sold their Journal to the bundle publisher for whatever reason, starts to see their Society's Journal impact dropping (along with some of their revenue). At this point there will either be a call to membership to publish in the main Journal, or a call from membership to retrieve their Journal from the bundle people. This fight will probably go both ways, and different societies will have different end points. The options available will also vary. Some societies will have made a complete sale of their journal and be out of luck, others may be able to renegotiate publishing arrangements. Journals most threatened are those with no society behind it.

      Also, in my experience you can't just trade in five papers for two in the superstar journal realm (e.g. journals with double digit factors like science or nature which are usually around 30). Also, many superstar articles never make it to a general audience journal like Science or Nature. If a scientist really wants to impress someone with their publishing record, then they should report five and ten year impacts of their individual articles - not their neighbors.

    8. Re:Amazing by Defenestrar · · Score: 1

      Congress (in the US) is very gently easing access to papers who's research was funded by public money. It's slow, and far more limited than it should be, but it's possible that we see governmental action crack this nut wide open - retroactively even.

    9. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Often, it is not.

    10. Re:Amazing by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2

      Isn't it possible to publish in multiple journals?

      Not the same paper. The journal will get quite ticked off with you if you try to do that.

    11. Re:Amazing by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      No, I think it's actually just the money. The rest is probably just to justify a budgetary move.

    12. Re:Amazing by Hentes · · Score: 1

      I'm not familiar with academic publishing, but doesn't the copyright remain with the original authors? Or how exactly will a journal block a scientist from publishing elsewhere?

    13. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      One can publish in as many journals as one wants, but the one research project = one publication. Also, your university will look at what and where you have published, and your peers, if they don't know you personally, will never see work in a low impact journal, no matter how good it is. For instance, I am a Mycologist. Chances are very bad that I will find any research from something like "Reports of the Tottori Mycological Institute" no matter how good the work is unless one of the authors is a MAJOR name in the field. However, publish in Mycologia and I'll see your work no matter what.

    14. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Well, by law the public owns anything that is funded with tax payer money, so really anything with a USDA, NIH, NSF, etc stamp should be available to the public.

    15. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not familiar with academic publishing, but doesn't the copyright remain with the original authors? Or how exactly will a journal block a scientist from publishing elsewhere?

      Sadly, the Journals often require assignment of copyright.

      Technically, acedemics often must get technically get permission from journals before providing their peers with copies of their own work. Sometimes even their on thesis / dissertation.

    16. Re:Amazing by quarterbuck · · Score: 2

      It depends.For many papers, this is how I have seen it progress
      1) Go to a conference and present a topic.
      2) Publish a larger set of results including the above as a PhD/Job Market /Masters paper.
      3) Condense the paper and publish in a journal.
      4) Take the ideas and condense it further and publish in an industry journal
      5) Make it into a 1 page and add pictures to publish in a trade journal or to use in marketing products.

      --
      http://slashdot.org/submission/1062723/Cheap-mobile-data-plan?art_pos=2
    17. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I for one have given up on publishing unless it is "free access" after an embargo period of say, 6 months.

      There is not point in me publishing if no one will read my study.

      As a physician, I am frustrated that in looking up a procedure for a rare tumor treatment published in 1997, I have to pay $30 to read it -- before I know if it will be of any use.

    18. Re:Amazing by kf6auf · · Score: 3, Informative

      When you submit a paper to a journal you typically sign a copyright transfer agreement. These vary a bit from publisher to publisher, but all of the ones I have seen state (and I just checked the two I have in my desk):
      1. That the copyright (but not related patent rights) is transferred to the publisher, but the authors retain the right to make personal copies.
      2. That it is original work, not published before in any language and is not being considered for publication elsewhere.

      IANAL, but my understanding is that the first clause prohibits you from submitting the article to another journal and the second clause prohibits you from having already submitted it to another journal.

      As far as I can tell, it's quite effective.

    19. Re:Amazing by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2

      1) When you publish in an academic journal, you transfer the copyright for your paper to the publisher.

      2) As a reviewer, if I see you published your paper elsewhere, I will immediately reject it. Publishing a paper more than once is called self plagiarism, and it's unethical. The purpose of publishing is to disseminate your research to the community. Publishing your work in more than one journal is counter to that goal because your research is already in the community, and you're taking up space in the journal for research that hasn't yet been published.

    20. Re:Amazing by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      Wow...it sounds like they are getting screwed as bad as the music artists. maybe its time for the scientists to get together and say 'fuck the gatekeepers" and have their own free peer reviewed journal? After all artists have found ways around the gatekeepers by using the massive distribution power of the web so I don't see why scientists couldn't do the same. After all the ONLY reason these assraping publications have any "prestige" is because scientists give them that prestige, so if they scientists were organized and gave their support to a free online journal these guys would dry up without content.

      Considering how many idealists there still are in academia this sounds like a worthy goal to me and I hope they do rise up against this system, because from your description it sounds like shit.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    21. Re:Amazing by isilrion · · Score: 3, Insightful

      2) As a reviewer, if I see you published your paper elsewhere, I will immediately reject it. Publishing a paper more than once is called self plagiarism, and it's unethical. The purpose of publishing is to disseminate your research to the community. Publishing your work in more than one journal is counter to that goal because your research is already in the community, and you're taking up space in the journal for research that hasn't yet been published.

      Please tell me that you see the contradiction there. For most journals out there, publishing in only one of them ensures that the paper is not already in the community - it is only available to those who purchased that particular journal. Not to mention translations, which are also considered self plagiarism, and which quite obviously increase the audience of the paper. Taken to the extreme, your attitude makes it hard to even share your work before publishing (I recently had an argument with a conference organiser, because after googling my name and title, they found out that I had given a seminar on that topic... in my own internal research group at my university).

      I do disagree with taking credit more than once for the same research, specially through salami publishing and their ilk, which is a very serious problem. But the so-called "self plagiarism" is no more than an absurd power grab from the publisher, to ensure they keep the monopoly over the distribution of our research, specially in the light of the "taking space" argument (really, it does not make any sense whatsoever. Space where? On the website, where you have nearly unlimited space?). It's a shame that most of the scientific community, like you, have fallen for it. If they really cared about disseminating research, a much more efficient way is to let the authors state "this work was been previously published in so and so journal", rather than accusing them of fraud.

    22. Re:Amazing by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      For most journals out there, publishing in only one of them ensures that the paper is not already in the community - it is only available to those who purchased that particular journal.

      Not in the journals I publish in. IEEE, ACM, and Springer all allow an author to publish an article on his own website, an institutional repository, and a funding agency repository, available to all for free. I have not published with Elsevier, but I know they have a similar copyright policy. With Nature the author actually retains the copyright and you license them the ability to publish your work.

      Not to mention translations, which are also considered self plagiarism, and which quite obviously increase the audience of the paper.

      True to a point. In my field, the top international journals are written in English. If you want to communicate to most researchers in your field, you write your paper in English. If you want to, you're certainly free to translate your paper and publish it internally at your institution or on your website, available to all. This, again is permitted by IEEE, ACM, Springer, etc.

      specially in the light of the "taking space" argument (really, it does not make any sense whatsoever. Space where? On the website, where you have nearly unlimited space?).

      There are other resources required to publish a paper aside form physical space (and yes, many periodicals do still come in physical bound paper form). But imagine if I submitted my paper to every publication out there, both high and low quality (much like a student applying to college). I'd be taking up dozens of hours of time from reviewers and editors to review my publication. There would be a massive backlog of papers to review, and it would take forever for new research to make it in to a publication. It already takes months, maybe half a year to get through the peer review process for some publications.

      If they really cared about disseminating research, a much more efficient way is to let the authors state "this work was been previously published in so and so journal", rather than accusing them of fraud.

      So then the question is... well why are you trying to publish it here if a reference to x journal is good enough? Why don't you just read it in so and so journal? Or better yet, just link to your webpage. Why should you publish old research in multiple journals?

      No, I'm sorry, the only real reason to publish in multiple periodicals, especially given the lenient copyright policies of the publishers I know of, is to pad your own CV.

    23. Re:Amazing by mbkennel · · Score: 1

      "In many cases their career and their wallet benefit more from those two papers in the high impact journal than the five in a lower impact one."

      More like two papers in a high impact journal are more important than fifty in a lower ranked journal.

    24. Re:Amazing by isilrion · · Score: 2

      So then the question is... well why are you trying to publish it here if a reference to x journal is good enough? Why don't you just read it in so and so journal? Or better yet, just link to your webpage. Why should you publish old research in multiple journals? No, I'm sorry, the only real reason to publish in multiple periodicals, especially given the lenient copyright policies of the publishers I know of, is to pad your own CV.

      Impact factor. Prestige of the new journal. The obscurity of a random researcher's website. Minor corrections to make the work easier to follow. Publishing in a completely different venue. Accessibility. The first two may be related with "padding the CV", but it is not necessarily just to increase the number of publications without doing new work. Accessibility is important if the journal doesn't let you self-publish, with I'll grant you is pretty uncommon now (but not completely gone), though this point is moot if you have to sign away your copyright - but in this case, it would be copyright infringement, not fraud.

      And then comes the "publishing in a completely different venue" reason. It's more evident if we talk about conferences instead of journals: if you present your work at a conference and don't publish it elsewhere after that, the only people who will know your work are the ones attending your talk. But if you present, then publish or present a second time, you can't claim that your publication/presentation is new (see my example in the previous post, when I was accused of self-plagiarism and my submission was almost denied because I had presented my work at an internal seminar that happened to have a website). Everyone does it anyway, but it can get hairy if the conference(s) end up publishing the proceedings in [some obscure journal]. But that's not limited to conferences! My own work covers topics of three completely different fields. There is little chance that a computer science publication will be read by a physics researcher, and I do need input from the three fields (specially in the form of a reviewer saying "this is completely wrong"). Shouldn't we try to send our papers to three specialised journals? (perhaps with minor changes: focusing on the CS problems for the CS journal, and so on, but those differences wouldn't be enough for an honest researcher to claim that they are three different works - I certainly don't claim that they are different). How does being accused of plagiarising ourselves furthers the goal of disseminating that work among those who can criticise it best?

      And regarding the translations, that's an instance where publishing multiple times should be CV worthy. Most journals are in English, but there are a few that aren't. If you are native English speaker, you may not appreciate it. But if you aren't, chances are you will have to deal with them - perhaps you want to publish in a less known journal in your own language so you can get feedback from your local peers. Translating a paper is not an easy task. Hiding the translation in your website only is useless, or at least, not worthy of the effort required to translate it. Most certainly it is not an ethical violation, except in the minds of the publishers. (And that's assuming that you do the English version first. If you first publish the non-English version and then are not allowed to publish the translation, everyone loses).

      That said, there are way more problems with the dissemination of knowledge than just being allowed or not to publish the same work in two venues. The "need" to pad one's CV, letting the publishers be the gatekeepers of knowledge, and letting their commercial interests dictate what is "ethical" in publishing are much bigger problems in the first place. I am just shocked at how quick you are at repeating the publishers' party line and refusing to even consider whether other opinions may have merit.

    25. Re:Amazing by beep54 · · Score: 1

      1) When you publish in an academic journal, you transfer the copyright for your paper to the publisher. 2) As a reviewer, if I see you published your paper elsewhere, I will immediately reject it. Publishing a paper more than once is called self plagiarism, and it's unethical. The purpose of publishing is to disseminate your research to the community. Publishing your work in more than one journal is counter to that goal because your research is already in the community, and you're taking up space in the journal for research that hasn't yet been published.

      Dear Lord what you said is so fucked up in so many ways. Exactly whose payroll are you on?

    26. Re:Amazing by Defenestrar · · Score: 1

      Nope - IP generated from public money still belongs to the researcher/institution. If a funded non-government researcher writes a paper he/she holds the copyright (or more likely their institution under work for hire) while if a government institution does the same, the document is automatically public domain. Same goes for patents to an extent (in some cases government researchers can still get partial royalties off of patents, but the government research institutes are notorious for doing all the ground work in a field and letting someone else swoop in for the patent).

    27. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are absolutely right. For now, at least. The only way it will change with respect to the business model is if the open access journals arrive at higher impact factors. One beautiful aspect of (some) open-access journals is the requirement that publication hinges largely on whether the right conclusions have been drawn from the data presented and not whether the reviewers believe the work is hotter than sliced bread. The intention of this philosophy is to allow researchers to publish scientifically sound work that goes against inspired wisdom from highly territorial reviewers or other researchers. One means to increase impact factors would be to allow the editor to prioritize manuscripts into different journals or sections of journals to indicate their view of how ground-breaking the research is. For now, the journal Nature has many very useful papers but given its impact factors, many of its published works are completely unreadable with respect to materials and methods. That is, the cake is measly but the frosting is very tasty. Unfortunately, once many researchers read materials out of their technical arena, they have no other way to measure the importance of a work outside of how it is sold by the journals.

    28. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that's totally wrong. Worked created by the Federal government are in the public domain. Works created by private individuals who are not government employees are not, no matter where the money comes from, nor are works created by any lower level of government.

    29. Re:Amazing by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      I am just shocked at how quick you are at repeating the publishers' party line and refusing to even consider whether other opinions may have merit.

      If you notice, every argument I’ve put forth has been from the perspective of the researcher and the scientific community. I have not laid out any of the myriad legal/business objections a publisher might have to self-plagiarism, since I don’t care about them. I also never said I would never consider the merit of other options. You certainly have not convinced me with your vision of a world where it’s acceptable for the same paper to be published multiple times. I do believe this practice wastes just about everyone’s time. Let’s image a world where republishing old work is an acceptable practice:

      You’re wasting reviewer/editor time because they are reviewing a paper that has already been peer reviewed. This is great for you as a scientist, as you get a different take on your paper, but it’s terrible for the community, since time spent on your old paper could be better spent on reviewing new cutting edge research, effectively draining the resources of the collective peer review process.

      You’re also wasting the reader’s time. I don’t want to read your paper in every journal I subscribe to. It’s redundant and unnecessary. Actually, as the case usually is these days, if I have an interest in your field I will find your paper through a keyword search. I will most likely stumble upon the journal’s repository, hit a paywall, search for the article title, and find the fulltext on your webpage.

      You’re wasting the researcher’s time. If I’m doing a literature review I’m going to face an exponentially lager number of papers to sift there, most of which are duplicate results of the same paper in multiple journals. Further, you disrupt the confidence a researcher has that any given article represents new, original work. If you can publish an old paper at any time in any venue, whenever I read a new paper I now have to go through and look at your citations and see when the first time you published this paper was. If I’m reading a new publication in 2012, I’m pretty sure the research has been done in the last 6 months.

      Finally you’re wasting your own time too. Publishing the same paper over and over with maybe small tweaks isn’t going to get you any kind of reputation that is good. Even if you pad your resume with multiple high impact journals, any person who looks at your resume is going to see it for what you are. You’re better off publishing once, and then actually moving the state of your research forward to publish new, original research.

      Impact factor. Prestige of the new journal. The obscurity of a random researcher's website. Minor corrections to make the work easier to follow. Publishing in a completely different venue. Accessibility.

      The first two, as you note, have no scientific bearing. If you want to publish in a high impact prestigious journal, submit there. If you get rejected, move down the ladder. There’s no reason to publish in both high quality journals and low quality ones, and frankly, all this would do is weaken your own reputation.

      The obscurity of your own random website is offset by the power of search engines. If I’m searching for keywords related to your field, I’ll find your paper in Google Scholar and other academic search engines like Mendeley, no matter how obscure your own site is. Further, you are allowed to post your paper in not so obscure funding agency repositories and institutional repositories.

      Publishing the same article in a completely different venue, as I address later, is definitely an issue. There should be some appreciable difference between an old paper and a new one. Add a new take, a new analysis, some new experiments, write for the specific audience, etc. If there is no difference, the m

    30. Re:Amazing by isilrion · · Score: 1

      Yes I agree with this, as long as it’s made explicitly clear to the reader that a prior publication already exists. However I disagree that a translation is CV worthy. If this were the case, I would just translate all of my papers into every language I could and pad my CV with hundreds of copies of the same publication.

      The question is, would you be able to? Translating a paper is not just passing it through google translate. It requires a great deal of work, and it has tremendous benefits for the scientists that speak the target language better than the original. But if you are able to do it (as in, the paper should pass peer review in the target language), by all means, go ahead. I'm reasonably fluent in english, and I'm obviously decent in my native language, but I haven't been able to produce a coherent translation of my own works yet (in either direction). Believe me, I've tried. I admire the few people I know who can do it. If you can... I admire you too.

      Any person interested in my publication list (employer, tenure committee) would see through this ruse.

      That's the point, you are assuming that it is a "ruse" and that I would try to hide the fact that it is a translation. I wouldn't. I wouldn't just list "original paper" and "translated paper" and try to make them seem different. One of them, the most "important" one (whatever that means), would get its space in the CV as the new work. The other one would get a subtitle below that one ("Also published as 'target language title' in 'target language journal'"). Btw, I do this as well with conferences/papers, i.e, if I write a paper and present it at a conference, workshop (or vice-versa), I don't try to pass them off as different works. As I said, if I value translations so much, there is no way I would try to hide that I made one.

      I certainly wouldn’t reject a paper that is based on a presentation that you did at an internal seminar.

      Just out of curiosity, where do you draw the line? What if the seminar is open to the public? What if you presented at the "internal seminar" of another institution? What if it was a minor conference, or a conference at a minor university? Or a conference that didn't publish the proceedings? What if they did publish the proceedings, but just hidden somewhere with low visibility, or even behind a paywall? Would the quality of the research have any bearing on your decision? I'm aware that you don't need to have a line, and I'm not implying that not having a definite line means that there is no distinction (that would be a fallacy), but you do seem to have a pretty strong opinion and a very well defined line. You can bet that at any chance I have, I /will/ try to submit papers to conferences in my home country, not because I want to "pad" my CV, but because I want to do the very little I can to change the "status quo" (a lot of researchers from my country wont publish locally, because doing so would disqualify them from publishing in an "important" venue, which in turn makes the local venues even less important. The "important" venues are obviously very pleased with that arrangement). Whether to accept the "duplicate" presentation should be a decision of the host venue, based on whether the quality of the paper warrants another talk and whether the target audience is likely to have been exposed to that work and/or will gain by being exposed again. To disregard it without that consideration is, IMHO, irresponsible towards the goal of disseminating science.

      As a physicist, I’m only interested in the physics aspect of your paper. As a computer scientist, I might not understand your physics notations. As a result your paper will probably just drift into obscurity in all venues. The best approach is to write three different papers (not just minor tweaks, but tailored for the audience), each with their own unique take on the problem, each with unique results (and ea

  2. microseconds by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If Harvard paves the way with this, how long until other academic bodies follow suit and cut off companies such as Elsevier?

    As soon as an on-line open-access journal gets the same impact factor as the traditional Elsevier or IEEE journals, the old ones are dead.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:microseconds by solanum · · Score: 4, Informative

      Some are. PLoS One for instance has a pretty high impact factor. It's not up there with Nature, but it's higher than the vast majority of journals.

      --
      Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
    2. Re:microseconds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Some are. PLoS One for instance has a pretty high impact factor. It's not up there with Nature, but it's higher than the vast majority of journals.

      In case people are wondering... PLoS is the Public Library of Science.

    3. Re:microseconds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As soon as an on-line open-access journal gets the same impact factor as the traditional Elsevier or IEEE journals, the old ones are dead.

      It's simply a matter of gaining hearts and minds.

    4. Re:microseconds by fotoguzzi · · Score: 0

      I'm sure glad I browse at +5. I would have hated to miss the genius that was this post.

      --
      Their they're doing there hair.
    5. Re:microseconds by openfrog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If Harvard paves the way with this, how long until other academic bodies follow suit and cut off companies such as Elsevier?

      Coming from Harvard, a university whose endowment funds are twice those of Cambridge and Oxford taken together, this is significant indeed.

      One recent event that may have prompted Harvard to act is a recent blog entry from Thimothy Gower (Gower's Blog), a professor of mathematics at the University of Cambridge, which prompted a petition to boycot Elsevier, signed as to the time of this writing by 10,172 researchers, and which has done much to raise awareness across disciplines.

      You can read about the petition at The Cost of Knowledge website. Read also the Wikipedia entries on Gower and on The Cost of Knowledge.

    6. Re:microseconds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Harvard paves the way with this, how long until other academic bodies follow suit and cut off companies such as Elsevier?

      As soon as an on-line open-access journal gets the same impact factor as the traditional Elsevier or IEEE journals, the old ones are dead.

      Optics Express already does that. It is an open access journal with a very high impact factor in the area of Optics / Photonics. It does have a larger variation in the quality of the publications, but I'll take open access over the current system any day of the week.

      Source: http://faculty.cua.edu/wangz/journal_if.htm

    7. Re:microseconds by crazyjj · · Score: 1

      All you have to do is find someone with respected credentials who is willing to do all the hard work of editing and producing a prestigious journal for free. Shouldn't be too hard.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    8. Re:microseconds by Sir_Kurt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I guess you know that the present editors with respected credentials doing all the hard work at the prestigious print journals are -right now- working for free? So you are right. Shouldn't be too hard at all.

      Kurt

    9. Re:microseconds by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This process can be sped up immensely by simply having universities or their libraries publish their own journals. There is really no excuse for not doing this, and little excuse for the minimal costs to be borne by either the library itself or the relevant department.

      The costs of hosting an academic journal online are by now practically non-existent, and will disappear entirely once some standard journal management open source software is developed and included in main repositories. The cost of actually printing journals probably pales in comparision to the present print budget of most universities anyway.

      I'm aware of at least one journal which is printed in this way. While not the most famous of publications, there's nothing wrong with the model whatsoever.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    10. Re:microseconds by JanneM · · Score: 1

      Publishing in a small, local journal that gives you few readers and few citations will not be good for your impact. Good exposure is of course important for your ideas to spread.

      And truth is, promotion boards and funding agencies put a great deal of weight on where you publish as a proxy for how important your work is for the community, and if you don't publish in "good" places you will eventually be out of grant money, and out of a job. Which is kind of important if you want to live indoors, eat regularly and get a pension and health care.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    11. Re:microseconds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a lot of respect for PLoS, but PLoS One in particular has really variable quality. Some of it is excellent, some of it is trash. In this regard, it might be a good example of the pros and cons of open-access moderated publishing (PLoS One is a bit different from the other PLoS journals in this regard).

    12. Re:microseconds by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      I find the same thing with Nature and Science. Some Good, some trash. Hell one of them even published a Homeopathy paper. It was later retracted.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    13. Re:microseconds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, the software you describe exists already - it's called OJS. I work in the library at the fourth-best-ranked Canadian University, and we run this software, hosting dozens of journals.

      However, hosting an academic journal implies a lot of responsibility and most importantly, people. Who determines what papers are worth publishing? Running a website is trivial. Building a community supporting an academic journal is hard - it takes decades for a team of dedicated scholars to build a journal that is respected by their peers. Since there is almost always an incumbent journal in your field of study, you might understand that many researchers would rather spend their time and effort on *doing research*, than contributing unpaid time to what seems like a backwater effort on a new way of publishing.

  3. The system must be changed by GeneralSecretary · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At a minimum publicly funded research should be available to the public for free. Ideally journals themselves would be replaced with a decentralized Web based system where anyone can publish and peers can freely review all the articles. Academic journals should be replaced with something akin to blogs much as newspapers have.

    1. Re:The system must be changed by godrik · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually most researchers publish their result in technical reports or on arXiv before sending a paper to a journal.

      It is streamlined in Physics and is becoming popular in Computer Science. I am not sure about other disciplines though.

    2. Re:The system must be changed by GLMDesigns · · Score: 2

      I couldn't agree more. It's crazy: the author publishes the work without getting paid; there are little to no advertising costs and yet it costs a fortune to access the work. It made sense 20 years ago when the articles were published in small quantities and trucked over to university libraries. But now? The cost of distribution approaces 0.

      --
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      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    3. Re:The system must be changed by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      At a minimum publicly funded research should be available to the public for free.

      Some funding agencies require that. Some middle-men are fighting it.

      Academic journals should be replaced with something akin to blogs much as newspapers have.

      Maybe "akin" to blogs, but there still needs to be peer review.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:The system must be changed by SirGarlon · · Score: 2

      Academic journals should be replaced with something akin to blogs much as newspapers have.

      This sounds great. I wonder, though, how one would find and vet qualified reviewers.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    5. Re:The system must be changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blogs? You mean mostly unreliable sources of information routinely full of bias and lies? Yeah, let's replace well-respected journals with that trash... Not!

    6. Re:The system must be changed by elsurexiste · · Score: 1

      At a minimum publicly funded research should be available to the public for free.

      Agreed.

      Ideally journals themselves would be replaced with a decentralized Web based system where anyone can publish and peers can freely review all the articles. Academic journals should be replaced with something akin to blogs much as newspapers have.

      This would lead to an ugly mess... It's not bad enough that we throw faeces to each other, now we'll make it easier. The advantage of highly-centralised systems is that the consensus and the state of the art are self-evident, so why discard those advantages?

      --
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    7. Re:The system must be changed by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      Actually most researchers publish their result in technical reports or on arXiv before sending a paper to a journal.

      It is streamlined in Physics and is becoming popular in Computer Science. I am not sure about other disciplines though.

      A lot of journals now allow "self-archiving". I think you can find most CS articles with a search engine and download a PDF from the authors' web sites.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    8. Re:The system must be changed by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      Are those papers peer-reviewed prior to being published on arXiv and other online sites? If not it is a poor replacement for the journals, which are designed to go through the slush pile of submissions and weed-out the bad works from the good.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    9. Re:The system must be changed by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I couldn't agree more. It's crazy: the author publishes the work without getting paid; there are little to no advertising costs and yet it costs a fortune to access the work. It made sense 20 years ago when the articles were published in small quantities and trucked over to university libraries. But now? The cost of distribution approaces 0.

      It's another example of the internet as a disruptive technology. People who have been making money off of this are going to hold out as long as they can, well past the point that everyone else identifies it as crazy.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    10. Re:The system must be changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And do it poorly, as per an earlier /. article.

    11. Re:The system must be changed by girlintraining · · Score: 2

      Ideally journals themselves would be replaced with a decentralized Web based system where

      Dude, that was what the internet was first used for, before it became a cesspool of pop culture and marketing. It's been done. Decentralization leads to privatization. Privatization leads to populist thinking. Populist thinking leads to marketing. Marketing... leads to suffering.

      --
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    12. Re:The system must be changed by godrik · · Score: 3, Informative

      arXiv does not peer review. But the documents are cross published. many submission system in physics actually download the paper from arxiv. Once you know the name of the published paper and the authors, you can access its version on arXiv which is exactly the one used by the journal.

    13. Re:The system must be changed by TubeSteak · · Score: 2

      Ideally journals themselves would be replaced with a decentralized Web based system where anyone can publish and peers can freely review all the articles.

      The tragedy of the commons is that everyone wants to publish and no one wants to review.
      And not everyone is qualified to review (or publish for that matter)

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    14. Re:The system must be changed by Missing.Matter · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When you publish a paper, you are expected to transfer the copyright of that paper to the publisher. However, publishers like IEEE allow you to post the accepted version of your paper on your own website. See the full policy here. This is in contrast to the published version, which contains all the journal specific markup like headers and page numbers. IEEE also allows you to publish the accepted version of your paper to any funding agency repository to comply with free-access requirements. I don't know how it works in other disciplines, but in engineering, IEEE is the place to publish and it works like this in pretty much all our periodicals. I take an extra step and on my website and add a note that all articles posted are for timely dissemination of information and all work is the property of respective copyright holders and may not be reposted without explicit permission. But the links point straight to the fulltext of the research.

      This policy is pretty permissive, and I've never seen the need to submit to an open access journal of lesser quality when I can submit to a top journal and be assured my research will be just as accessible.

    15. Re:The system must be changed by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Dude, that was what the internet was first used for, before it became a cesspool of pop culture and marketing. I

      Aah, with a sense of nostalgia I harken back to the days when the intertubes consisted of almost nothing but university and conspiracy theory websites, and 33.6Kbps was the top tier speed to beat...

      Thanks for the flashback.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    16. Re:The system must be changed by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      Of course. But now the consumer is pushing back. It's sad that the university (the paying consumer) has taken this long to push back hard. The authors and the reviewers are not paid for their work, at least not by the publisher. I'm glad Harvard is publicly pushing back and hope that other universities will join in. I don't blame the publishers for wanting to make money - I blame them for not figuring out how to transition gracefully; and I blame the universities for not exercising their power as consumers.

      --
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      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    17. Re:The system must be changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The tragedy of the commons is that everyone wants to publish and no one wants to review.

      The latter part is incorrect, judging from Youtube, Slashdot, etc... Everyone's a critic and reviewer.

    18. Re:The system must be changed by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Ideally journals themselves would be replaced with a decentralized Web based system where anyone can publish and peers can freely review all the articles.

      Many researchers post preprints on arXiv and/or on their personal web sites. There's decentralized free peer review, too, but only if you show up to colloquia.

    19. Re:The system must be changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's more then that. The editors are generally scientists who edit for free because of the prestige. The peer reviewers are scientists who review for free. The whole setup for journal publishers is that 90% of the work is done for them for free. Actually less then free, the authors generally have to pay to gfet their works published.

    20. Re:The system must be changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not in medicine--and really I suspect this is the case w/ any publisher that makes money. Once you hand over the paper, the publisher owns the copyright to it. If you self-archive and distribute you're in violation of copyright and they will rip your heart out and beat you with it.

    21. Re:The system must be changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Seems like it wouldn't be that hard to have a system based on reputation. Even better if people can retain their own 'list' of reputations, so authors you respect go to the top of the pot, others you don't to the bottom, and the middle is done based on associations with the former two groups. The benefit of this is that all those people writing 'biased' papers can keep doing it without you having to see them and the people who're writing stuff you actually agree with/use/whatever will rise to the top.

    22. Re:The system must be changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Universities aren't exactly the consumer. They are also a client of sorts. They rely on a secondary market in which this vendor plays a roll. They need their papers published in the journals this vendor produces in order to continue receiving grant money. A university like Harvard might have enough implicit prestige and clout to go up against these large publishers, smaller universities, not as much.

    23. Re:The system must be changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somewhat tangential, I've published is several fields: high performance computing; bio informatics; text processing. The differences between publishing guidelines is amazing. My experience in bioinformatics has been: if your code isn't publically available (can be source or executables), you don't get published; and you get feedback within four to six weeks. Re, high performance computing, feedback can take months, and if your article appears within 18 months you're doing great; also, journal articles are typically upwards of 15 pages. Re, text processing, no one cares about journals, it's all about conference papers; and page limits are usually four pages, sometimes eight.

      If I have a point to make (and I'm not sure that I do), it's that the system should/must be changed to encourage
      replication of results with (reasonably) minimal effort. Also, we need to encourage publication of articles in which
      the authors (1) state their experience with paper X's results, and either confirm or deny; (2) publication of seemingly
      great ideas that didn't pan out (there's a journal dedicated to this somewhere, but can't think of it off the top of my head)

    24. Re:The system must be changed by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 1

      You do know that reviewers are not generally paid for the task right? And yet they continue to review, generally because they know that in order for the system to work and for they themselves to be publicized, someone has to review. Another motivation can be to become a better reviewer themselves. I do agree that not everyone is qualified to review however, any such system as the GP describes would have to have some sort of reputation mechanism and the reviewers can't choose what to review themselves (in order to avoid reviewers picking papers from their friends). Ideally, both the the authors and reviewers should be anonymous as well.

    25. Re:The system must be changed by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 1

      oops, "better reviewer themselves" is supposed to be "better writer themselves"

  4. Boo hoo Harvard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Harvard, with it's massive endowment, pretends that it cannot afford this? That is utter BS.

    To be fair, Elsevier and their kin are somewhat evil money-grubbing publishers. They often try tricks like charging authors for "privilege" of color images to "recoup costs", when the content they're getting is already free.

    An analogy: A newspaper has lots and lots of writers on staff, gets their work for free (i.e. no paycheck), turns around and sells the newspaper at exorbitant prices to libraries, and then come back to the authors and say.. we want to charge you. This would be insane in any environment outside of academia or the government. Academia, lucky for them, is funded largely by government bureaucrats who are slow to change and demand open-access publishing (the NIH is moving in the right direction here).

    1. Re:Boo hoo Harvard by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Harvard, with it's massive endowment, pretends that it cannot afford this? That is utter BS.

      Harvard's Libraries say that they can't afford this(and given the relatively thin slice of the cash that the libraries see, is quite possibly true. Universities aren't unified entities. If anything, they are rather more compartmentalized than corporations(who, for accounting purposes if nothing else, have all sorts of internal distinctions of their own). The Endowment is practically an in-house investment fund, not a petty cash jar that the libraries can get access to easily. There are probably all manner of horribly complex distinctions(some largely accounting fictions, some fairly real(a professor in something biomed who maintains his lab and underlings on grants, say, is practically a tenant rather than an employee)).

      Plus(in a happy confluence of self-interest and altruism) paying for these journals because they can afford it would be a losing choice for Harvard and just about all the other schools:

      Why? Since Harvard is made of money, they really don't want to face the classic "How much does it cost?" "Well, how much do you have in your pockets?" chat with the sales rep. That's an express ticket to paying 50% more per year. Poorer schools don't want to end up paying 'industry standard' rates dictated by what richer schools can afford; but their faculty are also less likely to have the clout to just say "Dear Elsevier, fuck you." without damaging their careers.

      Harvard has the cash and prestige to afford it(if they would just cut their libraries a slightly larger slice, from what my friends associated with the system tell me, the libraries are surprisingly starved given their reputation); but this also means that they have the best chance to draw a line and end the practice, instead...

  5. Peer Review by sycodon · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Isn't one of the primary functions of a journal to facilitate the peer review process?

    I seem to remember it goes something like this: Paper is submitted, editors evaluate, if it's not complete garbage, they send it to other scientists in that field, they provide feedback, decision to publish is made.

    The Climategate emails showed a concerted effort to gain control of this process or at least influence the editors to not proceed with the review process in some instances. Will open source journals be more or less susceptible to that?

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Peer Review by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Isn't one of the primary functions of a journal to facilitate the peer review process?

      I seem to remember it goes something like this: Paper is submitted, editors evaluate, if it's not complete garbage, they send it to other scientists in that field, they provide feedback, decision to publish is made.

      In the general case, the editors and peer reviewers work for free. AFAIK all the publisher provides is the stylesheet, some higher-level organization, and the printing/distribution.

      In the internet age the traditional publishers are easily bypassed, and a lot of efforts are being made. I don't know whether there have been any big successes.

      (Are the PLoS outlets open access?)

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    2. Re:Peer Review by ciantic · · Score: 2

      You can have open-access journal with peer reviewing. Revenue the journals amass isn't exactly going to peer review. It would be better for universities to join the forces and make one open-access & optionally could include peer reviewed section, which would be financed by collection of universities.

      And THAT would be a technical knockout.

    3. Re:Peer Review by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It isn't clear that there will be a significant difference in editorial control:

      With closed access journals, researcher submits paper hoping to improve his CV(sometimes even surrenders copyright). Peers in the field review paper, usually for free/status associated with being a reviewer for a serious journal, Journal turns around and sells the finished work back to the libraries.

      Under the most common 'open' model, the costs of publishing are most commonly moved from the library end to the research end, by having a submission fee for papers that is one part of the cost of research, rather than having library/journal subscription fees as one part of the cost of research. That's the major economic change.

      I'm sure that, in practice, the shakeups surrounding moves from one model to the other will sometimes be accompanied by moves toward tyrannical editorial control or toward broader transparency; but those will really be orthogonal to the funding model.

    4. Re:Peer Review by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Climate skeptics have a much worse history of trying to manipulate the peer review process:

      http://www.skepticalscience.com/Climategate-peer-review.html

    5. Re:Peer Review by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2

      Isn't one of the primary functions of a journal to facilitate the peer review process?

      Which is done by volunteers. We do not need publishing companies to recruit volunteers for us, and then to profit from the work of those volunteers. The institutions those volunteers work for can just as easily cooperate to publish a journal and give incentives to the researchers who currently volunteer their time for the peer review process.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    6. Re:Peer Review by Grieviant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      With closed access journals, researcher submits paper hoping to improve his CV(sometimes even surrenders copyright). Peers in the field review paper, usually for free/status associated with being a reviewer for a serious journal, Journal turns around and sells the finished work back to the libraries.

      There isn't any status associated with being a reviewer for one of the big journals. By and large, no one outside of the publisher even knows that you do it and it's not really something worth bragging about on a CV. People who legitimately care about their field view it as (a mildly annoying) part of their duty.

    7. Re:Peer Review by sycodon · · Score: 1

      So, my question stands...would this make it easier or more difficult?

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    8. Re:Peer Review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to work for an academic department and we had at least three administrative assistants who were technically employed by the university, but whose salary, benefits, network connection, a token payment for power, computers, fax machines etc were paid for by journals as their primary role was to support a professor (each) who was an editor of a journal (all three were different journals). They assistants would handle non-journal business to some extent as their goal was to help the professor be more efficient so they had time to attend to their editing responsibilities. Most professor did it primarily as it made it easier for their research to get published and most would have read the majority of hte articles they edited anyways due to just keeping up with the field, but it was a very nice gesture.

      THis still can work in an online world; you can have professional organizations elects comittes with chairs to review articles in order to ensure high quality work still comes out. Some smaller schools may free load, but the larger will want to have their work reviewable and be able to say it went through the selection/editing/peer review process and still held its water. Ocassionally, peer review would catch things; one time what the original author thought was a small discovery was correct into being quite significant.

      I don't want to be taken as pro-journal; I know our library has dropped a number of academic journals due to cost. If the major universities can't afford them or it becomes a significant cost, finding a better, cost-savings model is obviously appropriate.

    9. Re:Peer Review by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Do you remember what the journals were? In my experience the academics who are editors do it as part of their expected "service" for their field.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    10. Re:Peer Review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a bit more complicated than that. The real value in the journals is in the copyeditors, who format the papers and make them attractive.

      This isn't a minor issue. Many individuals writing journal articles really don't know how to format their papers in a way that make them more readable. Some of them could, and maybe this will become more commonplace as people bypass traditional journals, but there's real value in the typography, page layout, graphic design, etc.

      Also, many editors have academic positions, and many of them get "outs" for being editor -- e.g., don't have to teach, or something like that. So even in cases where money isn't changing hands, there are often other benefits.

    11. Re:Peer Review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There isn't any status associated with being a reviewer for one of the big journals. By and large, no one outside of the publisher even knows that you do it and it's not really something worth bragging about on a CV. People who legitimately care about their field view it as (a mildly annoying) part of their duty.

      ...except that they do notice who are editors, and to be an editor often you have to gain respect as a reviewer. Not always, but lots of times that's how it works. E.g., "hey, I like your reviews and your research...how about you be on the editorial board...hey I like your editorial work ... how about you be the primary editor?"

    12. Re:Peer Review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I agree. It is more than mildly annoying but it is a duty.

  6. Yes please! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please do give Elsevier and others the finger for the good of humanity!
    This make knowledge finally accessible to all AND most importantly would greatly reduce the incentives to write bunk "scientific" papers

  7. Potentially good way to solve this... by dryriver · · Score: 2

    If major Universities required their faculty to publish facsimiles of any papers they submit to various journals on a _free_access_ "academic papers repository" section of the University's webpage, then we'd have the best of worlds. Those willing to pay for academic journals could still do so. Those hunting for a particular academic paper, not knowing in advance whether its contents are actually useful or not, could simply look it up on the University's _free_access_ academic papers section. Problem solved.

    --
    Why did the chicken cross the road? Because Elon Musk put an AI chip in its head.
    1. Re:Potentially good way to solve this... by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      The more effective route is to have public funding agencies demand this. If a university demands it, then it can substantially limit the capacity of a researcher to publish effectively with little upside. If the funding agency demands it, then the researcher has the perfect excuse -- nobody is going to tell the guy with the money "no thanks" just because he wants you to publish in a lower-impact free journal.

  8. Pot ... meet kettle by BitZtream · · Score: 0

    Seriously? Harvard is calling out others? This from a school with several professors who sell their own books that are required and no substitutes are allowed ... the books are good only for the one class, are different ever year so they can't be sold and so the professor can sell you a new copy, of course the argument is always some bullshit about how they have to change it to prevent cheating ... which only happens because they reuse the same content year after year and then pretend they spend countless hours coming up with new ideas.

    Its good to call out rip offs, but no one is going to give two shits about what Harvard says as they doing the exact same thing every day.

    --
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  9. Who pays? by solanum · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Whilst I would like to see the day where our work (I am a scientist) is all in open access journals, there is still a cost. The author pays the journal instead of the library. The difficulty for authors is that we typically don't have funding for that. Maybe what we need is for our institution libraries to be paying that cost, but then the library doesn't save any money...

    --
    Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
    1. Re:Who pays? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the sum of the publication costs is lower than the sum of the access fees of all journals for all institutions, then the funding agency saves money... and it most likely is lower, with the added benefit that anyone can read the publications, and not only paying institutions.

    2. Re:Who pays? by thirdpoliceman · · Score: 1

      Libraries will eventually save money in this situation. Even if libraries paid the open access fee for all faculty, they would only be covering the costs necessary for their institution. Currently, libraries have to pay for bundled journal packages. So, if faculty need access to a particular journals, the library often has to pay a fee that is not justified for access to the required journals, and the providers justify this by bundling other journals with popular or renowned journals.

      If academia moves to open-access journals, then everyone would be paying for their own contributions, and faculty would have access to everything they need. I suppose some libraries responsible for faculty who are active publishers may have their fees increase, but I'm not sure if that would be the case. I think the subscription prices set by providers are higher than the publishing costs of open-access journals. At least for the ones I've seen. I've seen open-access submission prices between $1,500 and $2,500. The faculty that teaches me is a small faculty with about 50 part-time and full-time faculty. If they each published 5 articles a year, that is $625,000 a year. I'm not sure what a reasonable amount of publishing is, but now that I look at it that is a lot of money. I don't know what it costs to get access to the various journal subscriptions used by my faculty, but I would be surprised if it was that much money. We have about 600 students in the various programs run by the faculty, which is about $1,800,000 worth of tuition per semester from the students contribution alone. Again, I don't know what amount the government provides after that. I doubt using 1/3rd of student tuition for publishing is feasible, but I'm not sure about that. Hmmm. Certainly, the library's budget will not be that large. I suppose, this system would favour institutions that do not publish as much. I feel that this benefits students in the end, but I guess I'm not sure any more if it would be cheaper. I am in a Master of Library and Information Science program. I'll ask around at school, and see if I can find out how much a typical journal bundle costs.

    3. Re:Who pays? by binarstu · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I am a big fan of open-access journals, but the reality is that many of them are very expensive to publish in. For example, authors are charged almost $3,000 to publish a single article in PLoS Biology. For many researchers who aren't working off of huge NFS grants, that price makes publishing in those journals impossible. Many "closed" journals have no costs to the authors because publishing costs are covered by subscription fees. I'd be happy to see a larger migration to open-access publishing, but I don't want to see the burden of paying for journals shift away from the libraries and on to the backs of individual researchers.

    4. Re:Who pays? by sycodon · · Score: 1

      I could see a State level function here. It would have to be strictly regulated and have oversight, but I think that having a single place to submit your work would improve the flow of information and availability.

      One improvement they could make is to ensure that the process is completely dispassionate and objective. I would suggest that the editors be regularly re-assigned to different scientific disciplines to avoid becoming chummy with regular contributors.

      One wonders if Alfred Wegener had submitted his book, The Origin of Continents and Oceans, as a paper to a process like today's and the thinking of his time, would it ever see the light of day?

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    5. Re:Who pays? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference between open and pay access journals is in the size of the page charge, open access journals charging more. Many pay access journals do have page charges, however - they're double dipping.

      Many grants provide funds for page charges. You [in the general] need to start building a larger budget for page charges in grants. Also, the institutions should consider underwriting some of these charges out of their grant overheads.

    6. Re:Who pays? by onebeaumond · · Score: 2

      Print journals charge market rates, not actual costs. The difference (profit) goes to the owners, usually an allied association run much like a private club with compensated officers, scholarship programs, etc. The journal editors and reviewers (who provide all the actual prestige and work of the journal) usually get "academic credit" for their participation and therefore not paid anything else. Certain engineering association journals even seem to specialize in "teaser" papers, designed to drum up consulting contracts for authors (association members) who can write baffling yet interesting sounding papers. Lots of advantages for a more open process here.

    7. Re:Who pays? by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      For example, authors are charged almost $3,000 to publish a single article in PLoS Biology.

      PLoS, like all reputable open-access publishers, waives publication fees for authors who can't pay. Basically, the fees paid by authors on big grants from NIH, NSF, et al. which specifically cover publication fees (remember, a lot of traditional journals charge publication fees too, for things like color figures, and waivers are considerably harder to get in that case!) are in part subsidizing articles from authors who aren't on those grants and don't have the resources to pay the publication fees. It's not a perfect system by any means, but it seems to be working so far.

      --
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    8. Re:Who pays? by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      Whilst I would like to see the day where our work (I am a scientist) is all in open access journals, there is still a cost. The author pays the journal instead of the library.

      You've been brainwashed by past experience. There's no cost that justifies making authors pay for their publications. All the work and cost occurs prior to having a finished paper, at which point it's just a PDF file that needs to be hosted and/or printed, the latter being optional in the internet age. The reviewing process is volunteer work and has no appreciable cost.

    9. Re:Who pays? by Mandrel · · Score: 1

      There's no cost that justifies making authors pay for their publications. All the work and cost occurs prior to having a finished paper, at which point it's just a PDF file that needs to be hosted and/or printed, the latter being optional in the internet age. The reviewing process is volunteer work and has no appreciable cost.

      Correct. There's no cost that justifies making authors pay for their publications. But there is a value. Prestigious journals get read by the right people; few will come across a random PDF. It's just like an app-store. Apple and Amazon can extract a good cut because discovery is at least as important as app cost and quality. Other publishers of software, books, and stock images get away with even larger cuts.

      Submitting to a quality journal is marketing yourself to the ends of fame, power, and profit. Scientists are human.

      But breaking away from an exploitative market leader is classic Prisoner's Dilemma. That's why there's all these attempts at collective action.

    10. Re:Who pays? by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      It's just like an app-store. Apple and Amazon can extract a good cut because discovery is at least as important as app cost and quality. Other publishers of software, books, and stock images get away with even larger cuts.

      The Apple and Amazon app-stores aren't anything special. In the open source world, the app-stores are called repositories. Like journals and "app-stores" around the world, the quality of repos varies depending on the amount of effort put in to maintain them. But it's not a function of money.

      The Debian repository is one of the best (I'd consider it "the" best), and is run entirely by volunteers, who check that the software works and fix minor bugs etc. All for free, no parasitic "cut extraction" like Apple or Amazon insist on.

      I guess my point is, the middle men are everywhere like you say, but they are not *necessary*. All it takes is for talented people to organize alternatives. In a field where there aren't a lot of talented people, that might be a problem. But in both open source and universities, there are a *lot* of talented people with a *lot* of time.

  10. Just ask the government for more money. by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

    After all education is (I was told yesterday) the primary goal of a university, regardless of the cost. Unversities should not be allowed to cut CS departments or library purchases of scholarly journals.

    --
    My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    1. Re:Just ask the government for more money. by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2

      After all education is (I was told yesterday) the primary goal of a university, regardless of the cost.

      And that is, of course, a lie. When the cost becomes high enough, it becomes a factor. When the cost rises to the point where it physically cannot be met, it will not be paid. There are no exceptions to this rule.

  11. How will the "Big Journal" Industry respond ,,, ? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

    Can they start suing everyone for downloading Journals . . . ? Their business model is being challenged, just like the music industry.

    Hmmm . . . how can they claim intellectual property on papers that haven't been written yet . . . ? It will be interesting to see what their lawyers will come up with . . .

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  12. Restriction on science by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Forget restriction on academia, etc. Science functions best with as many participants as possible sharing as much information as possible. These journals used to only charge a modest fee to cover distribution -- their function in that regard ended in the mid 80s with the introduction of mass communication becoming available to the individual at low cost, and a decade later the internet became a viable method of distribution.

    These journals are counter-productive today; They're causing work duplication on a mass scale because research (that thing where you look up what other people have done about the problem, also known as 'step 2') has become so cost prohibitive it's cheaper (and faster, thanks to a lack of standardization regarding searching) to just move forward with doing it over again. If I were Queen of the establishment of science, I'd send the military in and charge the owners of those businesses with crimes against science and sentence them to 10 years hard labor as assistants to (cough)... undergraduates.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:Restriction on science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will they get raped in the names of science ?

    2. Re:Restriction on science by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      Will they get raped in the names of science ?

      That would be unethical. Instead we'll study the effects of prolonged incarceration on the effects of men with a net worth over $5 million. :\

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    3. Re:Restriction on science by Slashdot+Parent · · Score: 1

      These journals are counter-productive today; They're causing work duplication on a mass scale because research (that thing where you look up what other people have done about the problem, also known as 'step 2') has become so cost prohibitive it's cheaper (and faster, thanks to a lack of standardization regarding searching) to just move forward with doing it over again.

      Huh? I'm not an academic, but whenever I need to look up an article in a medical journal (my wife is really, really sick), the cost is like $25 or so for the paper. Surely it costs more than $25 to reinvent the wheel, no?

      --
      They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
  13. Solution: Exclude from tenure consideration by crow · · Score: 2

    There's a very simple solution. Harvard can set standards that journals must meet in order for publications in those journals to be considered for tenure. If there's one thing that professors care about, it's having a good case for getting tenure.

  14. How long before the reverse is true? by davidwr · · Score: 1

    How long before "providers" attempt to adopt a very-high-by-today's-standards "published" subscription rate but give substantial discounts to institutions who have supplied content in the last 12 months?

    A followup question:

    How long, measured in nanoseconds after its announcement, before such a policy is widely considered an Epic Fail? Feel free to use a smaller unit of time in your response.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  15. Lessig spoke of this at ORGCon recently by Neil_Brown · · Score: 1

    Lessig spoke about journals, and access to scholarly works, at the Open Rights Group's recent conference, and made what I thought were excellent points:

    Junior academics seeking tenure (more a US thing, I think) or else recognition in their fields may still need to publish in non-open journals. Movements towards open access should not necessarily mean eliminating junior academics' chances of promotion or recognition, but that academics already with tenure may be in a different position. It's not necessarily the case that everyone can move at once, but that those than can, should.

    The problem of access to information in journals is often not felt by academics, given their university's licences to such material. Information, for many academics, is effectively free — I can access all sorts of wonderful materials by virtue of my academic life that I could not access so easily beforehand. As a result, currently, pretty much any article *is* freely available to me. But many are not so fortunate — particularly where universities cannot afford to pay access fees, but more so for those who are not affiliated to universities, and who would have to pay considerable fees for access to even individual articles.

    (I may have misunderstood, of course — these are just my recollections of quite a fast-paced lecture.)

    I'm not a fan of locked-up knowledge, and, if there is a way for someone to operate a successful publishing model, with good academic standards, then great — for those interested in open source legal issues, I'd point you towards the open access International Free and Open Source Software Law Review.

  16. egregious journal costs affect you, personally by ffflala · · Score: 5, Informative
    I'm a librarian, and years of increasingly tight budgets have brought me to the point that I view large journal publishers primarily as a massive, parasitic obstacle to public access to information. More from TFA:

    In 2010, the comparable amount accounted for more than 20% of all periodical subscription costs and just under 10% of all collection costs for everything the Library acquires. Some journals cost as much as $40,000 per year, others in the tens of thousands. Prices for online content from two providers have increased by about 145% over the past six years, which far exceeds not only the consumer price index, but also the higher education and the library price indices. These journals therefore claim an ever-increasing share of our overall collection budget. Even though scholarly output continues to grow and publishing can be expensive, profit margins of 35% and more suggest that the prices we must pay do not solely result from an increasing supply of new articles.

    Libraries are necessarily nonprofit organizations, and their budgets are funded through taxes and tuition. The current journal publication business model treats library budgets as little more than a vehicle to launder money that was taken from Mr. and Ms. Taxpayer.You pay to support Elsevier, ThomsonReuters, et al, in the form of taxes and tuition. Journal publishers seem to perceive library budgets the way that petroleum companies perceive oil fields. In case you think this is hyperbole, consider:

    An annual subscription to Tetrahedron, a chemistry journal, will cost your university library $20,269; a year of the Journal of Mathematical Sciences will set you back $20,100.

    http://www.economist.com/node/21552574 Given these kinds of costs, it would be cheaper for a library to fly the most prominent publishing mathematicians out for a visit and have them lecture on the topics of their latest publications.

    Applying a profiteering mentality to scholarly work has predictable resulted in a systematic degradation of the quality of academic output itself. The results are demonstrable.http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/04/20/220201/studies-suggest-massive-increase-in-scientific-fraud

  17. what a business model by spike+hay · · Score: 1

    Charge enormous sums of money for subscriptions to the journals, charge the scientists providing the content money for putting in figures (instead of the traditional paying-the-content-provider model), and the editors work for free.

    The NIH already requires that all papers published with their grants are available freely. Why the NSF can't do that, I don't know. It's a huge problem not only in academia but also in government. Government workers, such as ones at NOAA or USGS, often have little to no journal access. I'm sure it's the same in industry. This impacts everybody.

    --
    If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
    1. Re:what a business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Editors don't work for free. Reviewers do.

    2. Re:what a business model by spike+hay · · Score: 1

      Both work for free, actually.

      --
      If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
  18. Science? by binkless · · Score: 1

    Note that nothing in the linked article says that *scientific* journals are the only problem.

    A much more inviting target for cost savings would be the many specialized humanities journals that publish a steady stream of papers that nobody ever cites or even reads. We'd probably be better off if nobody bothered with them anyway - maybe then the philosophy and literature faculty can get back to doing something useful - like *teaching*

    1. Re:Science? by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      A much more inviting target for cost savings would be the many specialized humanities journals that publish

      Yes, well, let's help save humanity first before we help the fields dedicated to charting its demise and then doing the autopsy. :D

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
  19. Yeah but ... by Tim+Ward · · Score: 0

    ... there are some journal publishers who should be supported, such as CUP.

    (Just for anyone who doesn't know ... I'm currently without paid employment, and my wife works for CUP (although not in the journals division), so we need the money!)

  20. Where does all the money go? by PineHall · · Score: 1

    These publishers get a lot the work done for free. Here is how the process goes as I understand it.
    1) Author submits his paper
    2) Editor (working for free) checks it over and passes it to several reviewers.
    3) The reviewers (working for free) accepts with corrections/clarifications for publication (or rejects it).
    4) The author turns in the revised version and PAYS the publisher to publish it.
    5) Libraries and people then PAY the publisher for their copies and/or online access.
    The publishers do have some overhead cost of overseeing the process, the cost of materials, and the publishing the articles. It does not look to be that expensive with most of the time consuming work being done for free, yet the journals are quite expensive. So where does all the money go?

    1. Re:Where does all the money go? by Tim+Ward · · Score: 1

      Erm ... where do you find an editor who works for free? All the ones I know need to do things like feed their children and pay the mortgage, and they get paid appropriately for doing a professional job.

    2. Re:Where does all the money go? by LeadSongDog · · Score: 1

      Erm ... where do you find an editor who works for free?

      Allow me to introduce you to Web 2.0

      --
      Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
    3. Re:Where does all the money go? by t551 · · Score: 1

      Academic journal editors are professors themselves, just like the reviewers.

    4. Re:Where does all the money go? by Aardpig · · Score: 1

      Journal editors typically work for free; it's seen as a prestige issue.

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    5. Re:Where does all the money go? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Erm ... where do you find an editor who works for free? All the ones I know need to do things like feed their children and pay the mortgage, and they get paid appropriately for doing a professional job.

      you may be confusing scientific journal editors with editors from common publications (book publishers, newspapers, magazines). the latter are indeed professionals in the sense that editing is their job; *journal* editors are scientists from the field, they accept the journal duty to further their discipline and their personal prestige, and they do the work for free. the whole structure of the academic publishing is strangely twisted.

      from http://thecostofknowledge.com/:

      Roberto Alamino
        Aston University - Physics
      won't publish,
      won't referee,
      won't do editorial work

        I wonder why the scientific community took so long to notice what was happening... we were supposed to be the smart guys...

    6. Re:Where does all the money go? by thelamecamel · · Score: 1

      There's one more step between 4 and 5: Usually the journal will typeset your article, hopefully proofreading it and fixing the engrish. Depending on how well the journal is set up, this may involve retyping your beautifully formatted LaTeX submission from scratch *facepalm*. The typesetter/proofreader is paid to do this.

      Also, in my experience compulsory page charges for the author are much more common in open-access journals than reader-pays journals - which is another reason that all authors haven't switched to open-access journals.

      Apart from the typesetters, the publisher, sales, and marketing people get paid. If the journal goes open access, then presumably the sales people could all be laid off though...

    7. Re:Where does all the money go? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Editing a scientific journal is a part time job. The editors get paid from their full time good, often professor.

  21. It's already reality for all practical purposes by RaccoonBandit · · Score: 1

    It's a sensible move, and I hope others will follow. However, as mentioned previously it won't change a lot, at least not in physics, which is what I know. When someone publishes something of interest, I know about it and have looked up the pre-print on arxiv long (sometimes half a year) before it is scheduled to appear in one journal or another. The only role journals play in my opinion is that something that they provide prestige, like an ongoing competition for that stamp of quality they call "Nature" or "Physical Review" or whatever. Although even that doesn't guarantees the quality of a paper.

    With the insight of some of the comments here I can definitely see how stopping the subscription makes financial sense.

    If those journals become obsolete though, academics will have to seriously re-think the stuff the way they structure CVs, which currently really is a list of publications.

    On the note of publicly funded research should be free to the public: Exactly that was on the agenda of Germany's Pirate Party a little while ago (who pointed out that we pay three times: once to fund the research, once to subsidise the journal, once for the subscription), although oddly not many people seemed to pick up on it. Maybe the general electorate just doesn't care enough about academic publishing?

  22. Peer Review by lymond01 · · Score: 0

    The big journals are big because of their review process. I'm guessing that an open publication of research will go something like this:

    Black Holes: Not the Center of MY Galaxy
    Authors: Grad Student Smith, Grad Student Jones, Prof. Haggis

    Stephen Hawking and 27 others Likes this

    Tony Tyson says The very thought that Black Holes constitute Dark Matter is an egregious error in their hypothesis.

    And you know...this probably wouldn't be a terrible way of doing things if you can somehow set your reputation level based on your education/experience/PhD/etc, ignore non-relevant posts and likes....All probably less hassle than trying to convince faculty to spend time on peer reviews every week.

  23. Harvard isn't leading the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For well over a decade, faculty throughout the U.S. (and the Federal government itself) have been pushing the use of open access journals (and free public access to government research).
    If Harvard is leading in anything, it's in the loss of endowment funds during the Great Recession.

  24. Nothing is "free" by slew · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... As a result, currently, pretty much any article *is* freely available to me. But many are not so fortunate — particularly where universities cannot afford to pay access fees, but more so for those who are not affiliated to universities, and who would have to pay considerable fees for access to even individual articles...

    You are paying (at least your university is paying, leaving less money for the university to spend on other things). Often people forget this. So when you are reading through your "free" papers perhaps you might also notice if one of your collegues didn't get a matching grant for their research or that the janitor that doesn't come around to clean your office very much anymore, or there's one less TA for that class... There's always a cost, even if you you aren't paying a cost yourself. The cost may look small when spread out over many folks, but it's isn't zero. On the other hand, dropping a subscription to a journal by a large university to "save" money will cost something on the other side (people employed by the jounal will get fewer raises or lose their jobs). Realistically, journal access is really a fringe benefit to you (not unlike free coffee in a breakroom), but when the cash crunch comes, the fringe benefits are often the first to go.

    What we can hope for is a more equitable system for reviewing, publishing and sharing knowledge, but there's bound to be chaos during any transition, however if our economy turns to a knowledge based (rather than manufacturing based), you might actually see more limits, rather than fewer limits on knowledge distribution going forward (as knowledge becomes more valued as a commodity like raw materials in a manufacturing based economy).

    1. Re:Nothing is "free" by Neil_Brown · · Score: 2

      You are paying

      I agree — I absolutely agree. When you see few login boxes, or requests for money, it's easy to forget that you are in a very privileged class — that you have basically unfettered access (which would have perhaps been a better choice of words than "free access"), whilst most of the world do not.

      journal access is really a fringe benefit to you

      As an online, distance-learning student, electronic access to pretty much anything I might want to read (which includes, but is not limited to, journals) is not so much a fringe benefit as a major enabler to study.

    2. Re:Nothing is "free" by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Realistically, journal access is really a fringe benefit to you (not unlike free coffee in a breakroom)

      Er, no, it's not. Journals are, for research university faculty, a tool they must have to do their job. Cutting journal access isn't removing free coffee from the breakroom, it's removing the PC you use to do your job.

  25. Cheapskates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Harvard, despite their $32 billion dollar endowment, can't afford library fees? On top of the the 70+% overhead rate they charged my grants? Oh please. This is about many things, but a lack of money isn't it.

    For those not familiar with the subscription process, PLoS (and PhysX, etc.) have free access to the articles because the author has to pay for every article published. I check their website, the rate currently varies from $1300 to $$2900 per article, depending on which journal it's submitted to. Traditional journals, at least in physics (which is where I've published), normally don't have page charges for electronic submissions because they typesetting costs go way down with LaTeX submissions.

    What's really going on is that Harvard is shifting the costs from their libraries on to their researchers. They already have one of the highest grant overheads in the country (did you know that for every $1.00 in grant money a researcher receives, Harvard receives more than $0.70, to pay for things like electricity and library journal subscriptions?), but apparently a $32 billion dollar endowment just isn't good enough...

    1. Re:Cheapskates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Traditional journals, at least in physics (which is where I've published), normally don't have page charges for electronic submissions because they typesetting costs go way down with LaTeX submissions.

      You clearly aren't familiar with the scientific journals either.

      http://www.aip.org/pubservs/compuscript.html#style

      AIP now offers style files for AIP Journals. These style files work with REVTeX 4.1 and are included in the REVTeX 4.1 package. All AIP journals will accept REVTeX/LATeX files, however, it is important to note that AIP does not compose/typeset pages in TeX. Instead we use the generic markup language XML (Extensible Markup Language). As a result, the format and layout, especially math, may look somewhat different to what was originally created in TeX. While we appreciate the benefits to authors of preparing manuscripts in TeX, especially for math-intensive manuscripts, it is neither a cost-effective composition tool (for the volume of pages AIP currently produces) nor is it a format that can be used effectively for online publishing.

  26. Copyrights and older papers by sfkaplan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It would be a good thing for academia to move away from predatory publishers like Elsevier and Wiley, and conduct all future publication through open access journals. However, even if this wonderful thing happens, those publishers remain a problem. Let's say that Elsevier goes out of business when researchers stop publishing with them and libraries stop ordering their materials. The citation chain still goes through a large number of already existing Elsevier publications. If Elsevier disappears, our heavily limiting copyright laws leave no mechanism to obtain these older papers. Some libraries gave up on paper versions of journals in recent years, so even they have neither duplicates nor access to the papers.

    Part of solving the academic publishing problem needs to include changes to copyright law. Authors should be permitted to provide access to papers that their publisher no longer makes available. Libraries should be allowed to provide access to academic publications whose copyright holders have vanished. There needs to be some mechanism along these lines, or else Elsevier and their ilk will gouge the academic libraries even more severely.

    1. Re:Copyrights and older papers by OldBus · · Score: 1

      Many ejournals already have escrow mechanisms in place. Most research libraries won't give up print without it, and even if they do there are often agreements amongst groups of libraries that several will keep print copies (note: that is a UK perspective, YMMV)

  27. The libraries should become the publishers by Pauli · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Libraries have a mission to disseminate knowledge, and a budget for this purpose (i.e. they are already paying the $40,000 for the journal subscription). They also have a lot of the infrastructure needed for online publishing (high speed network connections, servers, computer programmers). They should cut out the middleman and run competing journals themselves.

    1. Re:The libraries should become the publishers by cpghost · · Score: 1

      Where are mod points when you need them? I wish I could moderate the parent +5 insightful! University Libraries are indeed the ideal publishers. It is mind boggling that it didn't happen yet... at least on a wider(er) scale.

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
    2. Re:The libraries should become the publishers by evdvelde · · Score: 1
  28. So does this mean Harvard is by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    turning the HBR publications such as Harvard Business Review and the many other journals they publish into open access journals? I'd like that, because it means the articles I've written for them I could no give away for free rather than pay a copying fee for each one.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    1. Re:So does this mean Harvard is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do they look like? A charity? They can have their cake and eat it too. *snicker*

  29. Harvard Student and Library worker by DSS11Q13 · · Score: 1

    I was just at the meeting where we were talking about this the other day. Harvard does put out some journals but the point is really to convince the ones we don't put out to move to open online access versus just print. Part of the problem is our library budgets are getting slashes and it's one of the hot button issues here. Most of the libraries are restructuring. I'm just a student worker so I'm not sure how exactly we will leverage them to do this apart from asking nicely, since,this is Harvard after all, we will get the journal. Asking nicely does work sometimes...

  30. What they need to do.... by apcullen · · Score: 4, Funny

    They need to get away from peer reviewed journals entirely and switch to a slashdot-style moderation system.

    Then papers will be acknowledged or disregarded solely based on their abstracts, with no one actually reading TFA, as they should be.

    1. Re:What they need to do.... by oodaloop · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the slashdot effect, whereby linked articles are rendered unusable when 2 million users simultaneously fail to RTFA. Perhaps I'll write a scientific paper exploring this paradox...

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    2. Re:What they need to do.... by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      You mean people do actualy read TF academical articles?

  31. Unpublished work by tepples · · Score: 2

    Or how exactly will a journal block a scientist from publishing elsewhere?

    I'd guess it'd be along the lines of contractually requiring, as a condition of publication, that the article be an unpublished work. Copyright law defines publication as "the distribution of copies or phonorecords of a work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending" (17 USC 101).

    1. Re:Unpublished work by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It is the remit of almost any journal that it publishes *original* research. Your paper must be unpublished.

    2. Re:Unpublished work by Hentes · · Score: 1

      But in that case they could just switch the order and publish in the well-known journal first, and the open one second.

    3. Re:Unpublished work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would assume that they're contractually forbidden from doing that, otherwise everyone would be doing so already.

    4. Re:Unpublished work by JanneM · · Score: 1

      Open journals don't allow republication either.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
  32. Open access and "open access" by janoc · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Switching to Open Access journals is great - except when a major journal asks you to pay 3000 USD (as an author) if you want your article accessible under their Open Access policy. Otherwise it goes behind the expensive subscription/paywall. Guess which option I am going to take if my boss pressures me to publish in a high-impact journal ...

    Yes, it was an Elsevier journal, but this is not specific to them, others do this as well.

    Researchers get stuck between a rock and hard place - we have to publish in high impact journals (otherwise our funding is cut, low impact factor publications don't count), but ideally open access (few high impact journals are Open Access) to save expenses for the library and you can bet that nobody will give me the 3k to pay that extortionist fee above, especially not if I am to publish at least twice a year in such journal. So what am I to do?

    Honestly, this does suck. Wearing my engineering hat, it is next to impossible to pay all the IEEE, ACM, what-not subscriptions I would need to access papers in my field as a private company - that's why there is so much reinventing the wheel and patenting the obvious. We had the ACM and IEEE membership and there was always a journal or a conf that was not covered. With outfits like Elsevier, Taylor & Francis etc. it gets even worse, because the subscriptions are per journal. It is completely impossible situation for a small company to deal with.

    1. Re:Open access and "open access" by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2

      Honestly, this does suck. Wearing my engineering hat, it is next to impossible to pay all the IEEE, ACM, what-not subscriptions I would need to access papers in my field as a private company

      I do a lot of publishing in IEEE conferences/journals, and I also do a lot of citing of papers in these same venues. I've never really had a problem finding an open access paper from IEEE publications. Usually a quick search on Google scholar will link me to the fulltext paper on the researcher's homepage. This is because IEEE allows authors to publish accepted publications in open access repositories and their own homepage.

    2. Re:Open access and "open access" by hendrikboom · · Score: 1

      As an individual, you can subscribe to the ACM digital library. It's under $200 a year (anyone know the exact price?) and you get access to just about everything ACM has ever published. And you can download the articles and keep them forever without DRM.

  33. Its's the grant stupid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uh no. It's not the University that pays. The University libraries pay for the journals, but the professor's grant pays the price of publishing the paper. As grants get tighter I suspect that places that don't charge you to publish will become more popular.

    What I suspect Harvard is saying is that publishing in more open forums will count as much as publishing in closed journals. For many academics, I suspect that the only reason they publish in closed journals is that it affects their promotion.

  34. I will not believe it until... by williamyf · · Score: 2

    ... I see Harvard's owm publications, like, for instance, the Harvard Business review, become OpenAccess too...

    You see, those are real cash cows, and probably cost the Harvard library nothing, so, most harvard authors will keep publishing there, costing other universities a bundle.... So much for Open Access.

    Don't get me wrong, I hope this becomes true, and helps, but I have become a tad jaded...

    Just my two cents.

    --
    *** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
    1. Re:I will not believe it until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those are expensive only by consumer standards. It's cheap compared to regular academic journals.

    2. Re:I will not believe it until... by williamyf · · Score: 1

      Those are expensive only by consumer standards. It's cheap compared to regular academic journals.

      While that might be true, my regular academic journals are various IEEE magazines (I am an electronics engineer, with minor in CS), and those are of comparable cost to HBR. I mention HBR just as an example of why I will not believe it until I see it, and I know HBR, because I also got an MBA latter on my life, so there was a LOT of HBR reading in 20052007...

      --
      *** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
  35. Hypocrites...educated, arrogant hypocrites. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other news, students stop going to Harvard because its rates compared to other institutions (much less "DIY education") are just too damn expensive, and because no one will pay a free market value for the fruits of their labor after graduation because everyone just expects everything for free.

  36. Listening to the Music... by slew · · Score: 1

    One thing you might consider is that this whole scientific publishing business might go the way of the music business in a few years. Right now musicians can often make more money touring than releasing records (publishing). So many old musicans have gone to treating "publishing" as a side-line publicity mechanisms for their day job (touring). Unfortunatly, newer mucisians don't have the historical publicity to ride on, so they are still forced into the old system. What this has done is create a discontinuity where the influence of older music is growing and sometime overshadowing the newer music making it harder to break into the system increasing the influence of the music cartel on newer artists and creating a sea of overproduced music. Sure, there's the occasional Justin Beiber (not that I find his music very listenable, but he seems to be a popular reference for this) that breaks out, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

    If it ever gets to the point where top researchers eventually find they get more impact by visiting, rather than publishing in wide access journals which are dilluted by crap, you may find that libraries become warehouses for un-impactful, un-referenced derivative papers, and all the cutting edge stuff being unpublished work done by visiting researchers at instituitions publishing in in-house journals or side channel (e.g., non-peer reviewd university press releases). Not sure that would be great if the primary interest was in public access to quality information. Finding and evaluating stuff in a bunch of in-house journals will basically be taking ourselves back to the early days of academia (when researchers disseminated primarily by visiting and publication never reached very far and researchers often unknowingly spent careers duplicating work done by others).

    There's probably some way to do this that works out for the general good, but this is a problem that the current music industry faces too and I haven't seen anyone come up with a workable long term system yet. However, in the shorter term, are libraries similar to the music store in this analogy? Is there a iTunes or Amazon like competitor/entity in the future for university libraries? Could such an entity destroy the concept of a journal (kind of like Amazon and iTunes destroyed the music album)? Could they eventually flatten the pricing model (any subject: peer reviewed papers 99c, unreviewed 10c)?

    If you are a librarian, these seem to be important things to consider.

    1. Re:Listening to the Music... by OldBus · · Score: 1

      I'm a librarian and you are very right that these are important things to consider.

      However, most librarians that I know are committed to getting the information to the people who need it (in academic libraries, our faculty and students). You will find that libraries, including Harvard, are already investing in systems to make stuff available and easily searchable from a wide variety of sources: including all those in-house ad-hoc repositories you mention, open access sites like arXiv and pay-for material (where we can afford it).

      What worries many librarians I know, is whether someone like Google can do it better, or whether we (with local knowledge of our academics) can add enough value to make it worthwhile to keep us. I think the jury is still out on that one, but it won't be for lack of effort on supporting our users

  37. Publication bias by oneiros27 · · Score: 1

    Unless you go to something like PLoS, where *everything* is published, you're still going to end up with duplication of effort.

    Just think of how many GradStudent-Years of work would be saved for every 'I tried (x) and it didn't work' paper, as we won't have 20 more researchers trying to do it.

    I don't know that the Open Notebook concept works in all fields (remember the Haumea controversy?), but we need to be moving in that direction.

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
  38. A counter argument by oneiros27 · · Score: 2

    I have a record of speaking out against closed journals (although, maybe not on here), and I've stirred the pot up on a couple of mailing lists.

    But there's one problem that people need to remember -- Elsevier and these others hold the copyright to large amounts of reference materials. If we cut them off entirely, and they don't change quickly enough, then they go backrupt ... and someone needs to be able to buy up that material so that it can be served to the public.

    Yes, we need to open things up going forward -- but we don't want to create a mini-dark age at the same time.

    (and if you want to read lots of the publisher's claims at why they need to keep things locked up, which is mostly 'because that's our business model', see http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/01/30/your-comments-access-federally-funded-scientific-research-results . And there's lots of great reasons from other people and groups about why it's such a dumb idea.)

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
    1. Re:A counter argument by oneiros27 · · Score: 1

      and to be specific as the 'it' at the end could be misunderstood .. the great reasons were why it's a good to release the research, not why it's a good idea to keep it locked up (most of those arguments were a joke)

      If the dinosaurs of the publishing industry don't change (which they're really reluctant to do while claiming that their business models give them the ability to 'innovate' (see the AGU response), they'll go belly up, and risk leaving us with a gap in the scientific record.

      (and I'm harsher on AGU than some of the others because they're a society that should be about distribution of knowledge, and as a member, they never asked us what our opinions were before sending the response)

      --
      Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
  39. Representation of Jujubee Semantics by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 2

    Isn't it possible to publish in multiple journals?

    Not the same paper. The journal will get quite ticked off with you if you try to do that.

    Not the same paper. Your research could generate multiple reports/papers off your main research (each hopefully unique***), and these can be published in different journals. However, each paper must be published in only one journal.

    *** I say hopefully unique because some academic professors (not all thank God) hash and re-hash the same topics with very little deviation (and ergo very little cumulative value), sending them en-mass to multiple journals and conferences. Think academic spamming - flying shit to walls in a drive-by-shooting example, hoping (or actually counting on the laws of probabilities) that some of them turds will stick.)

    You can recognize this when you begin to see an academic source forking papers year after year whose titles can be trivially parsed with a regex: Semantic Representations of Jujubees, Representational Semantics of Jujubees, A Representation of Jujubee Semantics, A Case for Semantic Representation of Jujubees, Worst-Case Scenario on Parsing Semantic Representation of Jujubees, Representing Jujubee Semantics with XML (I mean, you got to put XML on that shit so that it's sexy), OWL Representation of Jujubee Semantics for Web Services.... and so on and so on. I'm not making shit up. I've seen this.

    1. Re:Representation of Jujubee Semantics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love jujubees. There can never be enough.

      The only question is how different each of these papers is from its core. Many researchers spend their career studying one thing and forking their focus across many aspects of a common theme. Representing jujubees with XML may be a useful paper for those who know XML and are unfamiliar with how to apply this to jujubees. In one sense, you could say that the turd usefully stuck in one place. That goes for much of what passes as science now. What proportion of the research done 30 years ago is still useful and being cited? What proportion of researchers considered the work useful at the time of its publication? We can set a minimum of at least (4 or 5) / N, the author, the reviewers and the corresponding editor. Remove the author's friends and the minimum might be 1/N for much of the science previously published.

  40. Tracking your impact with Open Access. by HomoErectusDied4U · · Score: 1

    Making research science more open and more accessible is important to me as a young scientist. I work in a field that is often criticized/dismissed by the public (evolution), and I see open access research as both a shield against creationists/science deniers as well as a simple public good. The taxpayers are my ultimate bosses, and to convince them that I'm worth supporting financially, I need to show them what I'm doing (in addition to educating their sons and daughters). Paywalled research facilitates neither of these goals. Politics, costs, and other points have already been raised, but I haven't seen any comments about transparency of impact. Impact factor is a convenient metric that might work with deans and bureaucrats, but it does not work with fellow researchers. What matters to us is exposure, citation count, and who's citing your work. PLoS ONE (I've published there) has transparent metrics on views, downloads, Tweets, Facebook/G+ shares, and citations. Paywalled articles have citations - that's it. Having people talk about your research on blogs, in the electronic press, and on social networks is valuable, especially to younger researchers. As of now, I can show any potential employer that my PLoS ONE paper has > 3,500 views (which is good for my small field), four citations, and it was discussed by scores of folks on social networking sites. This transparency is simply not available from the paywall publishers.

  41. Change is hard by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

    I've been working in academia for 15 years, and the free journal movement was around when I started. Like many ideas that make sense, implementing them when opposed by established interests isn't easy. Harvard getting on board should be huge. Overdue, no doubt, but that's how these things usually go. I didn't think it would take this long back then, but after seeing how the system works (or doesn't), I'm not all that surprised now.

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
  42. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  43. thesciencebay.org by Iamthecheese · · Score: 0

    One thing that should definitely not be done is someone starting a website for publishing of papers copyrighted by journals. That would allow free access by anyone and make the journals lose profits. Then how many hookers could the corporations running the journals get?

    --
    If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
  44. About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know academic journals are stored and used by academics to do research (learn from the past), to create new developments. When the journals themselves are overly expensive, unsearchable, or proprietary, they become inaccessible (their value to the scholar decreases). Technical papers have been published in PDF for a long time. Publishing in an open, electronic format can make a researchers job much easier and less expensive. They can also be archived and stored to disk more easily, searched more easily, copied more easily, and can reach more researchers more quickly than traditional styles of publication (read: dead tree). They *must* be published in an open format, so that in 2 years or 5 years or 50 years the content is still accessible. Publishing in a proprietary format is like not publishing at all: if its unreadable in 5 years, its useless.

  45. Journal demands copyright when you publish by fantomas · · Score: 1

    When you publish in an academic journal it's very usual for them to demand some level of copyright. This varies country to country and publisher to publisher but generally speaking once you've published in one journal you can't re-present your work in another journal. Often you'll be required to confirm that a certain percentage of the work you're presenting is novel before they will consider it for publishing.

    The power journals hold over the academic community is immense. They know your career depends on getting published, and they hold the access.

    You can't even re-publish the work yourself on your own website. Last year I was published in one journal and I also wanted to present the article on my university's open access resources (so people interested in my work could view the article instantly, for free, without having to purchase a subscription to that journal) - and I was refused by the journal - I have to wait 18 months after publication before being allowed to put a copy of my own writing on line. This might not seem long, but I am a junior postdoc in a fast moving field: from the original thinking of the ideas to research and then the publication process is a few years, and also my fixed term contracts tend to be only a year or two years long. So getting my work out quickly to the world is crucial to keep me in work. But I need the publishers probably more than they need me, so I have to follow their terms and conditions...

  46. Journals won't allow it by fantomas · · Score: 1

    Publishers like Elsevier won't allow material to be put online once you've agreed to publish with them: I've had an article published with a major publisher recently and wanted to put it online in my university's open access resource system (free online repository) - I got told I have to wait 18 months before I can put it up there. The journal wants people to have to buy a subscription to their journal to see my article, doesn't want them to see my research for free.

    You crazy radical individualists might argue: "why don't you just tell them to get lost and put it online anyway?" - well, I work for a university, and if the publisher decides they are unhappy, their easy option is to tell the university to get my work offline or they will ban the university from access to their journals. My university is not going to get all their senior professors banned from access to reading or publishing in top journals just to make one little rebellious young postdoc happy. They'd rather delete stuff from my website or terminate my employment with them. In this power equation, I know where I sit.
    .

  47. Harvard's libraries cannot afford it? by johnwbyrd · · Score: 1

    Harvard's current endowment is approximately $32B. This is approximately the amount of equity in Kraft Foods or in Coca-Cola or in Oracle.

    Harvard is an enormously profitable corporation with a small side business involving handing out diplomas. For Harvard's libraries (underfunded though the department may be) to complain about the cost of anything, given the college's $38,415 undergraduate tuition this year, constitutes the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

    Class of '91, gentlemen.

  48. Re:How will the "Big Journal" Industry respond ,,, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Posting anonymously for obvious reasons.

    One of my clients is a large "traditional" academic journal publisher. They are responding to the pressure from open access journals by becoming more flexible and rolling out new features/products that make them more attractive.

    Some examples:
    1. Giving authors the option to pay their manuscript's publication costs, which would make their work available to the public, free of charge. This is the model of the open-access journals.
    2. Creating smaller bundles of journals for libraries that don't need to subscribe to all of them.
    3. Creating subscriptions that are good for X number of individual manuscript downloads, as opposed to subscribing to an entire journal. This wasn't really possible back in the print days, and that is certainly my client's history, but there is no reason not to offer this now.

    I'm not sure how they would litigate away competition from open access journals. It's not like the traditional publishers have some sort of right to academic research that is published in other publications!

    Disclaimer: I can't speak for the academic journal industry as a whole, or even for my client (hence the anonymous coward), but I can tell you that all I see around me is sincere effort to keep up with the changing needs of their customers.

  49. The real solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Publishers do what any commercial company does: maximize their profits. Stop whining, and change the research business. Here is how:
    http://scitechsociety.blogspot.com/2012/04/annealing-library.html

  50. Stop Whining! by evdvelde · · Score: 1

    Universities have been whining about this for years, but not done anything substantive. Publishers do what every commercial entity does: maximize profits. If you do not like the product, do not buy it. Here's how to start changing the scholarly communication business: http://scitechsociety.blogspot.com/2012/04/annealing-library.html