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Vesta Is a Baby Planet, Not an Asteroid

astroengine writes "Vesta, the second largest object in the main asteroid belt, has an iron core, a varied surface, layers of rock and possibly a magnetic field — all signs of a planet in the making, not an asteroid (abstract). This is the conclusion of an international team of scientists treated to a virtual front row seat at Vesta for the past 10 months, courtesy of NASA's Dawn robotic probe. Their findings were presented during a NASA press conference on Thursday. As to why Vesta never made it to full planethood, scientists point to Jupiter. When the giant gas planet formed, nearby bodies such as Vesta found their orbits perturbed. 'Jupiter started to act like a spoon in a pot, stirring up the asteroid belt and the asteroids started bumping into one another,' said Dawn lead scientist Christopher Russell. 'If they're just out there gently orbiting and everything is going smoothly, then without Jupiter in the picture, they would gather mass and get bigger and bigger and bigger. But with Jupiter there, stirring the pot, then the asteroids start bumping into one another and breaking apart, so nothing grew in that region, but started to shrink.'"

25 of 107 comments (clear)

  1. Pluto? by sunderland56 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So Pluto was deemed just another large chunk of space debris orbiting the earth, and hence not a planet. Vesta *is* just a large asteroid amongst a whole bunch of others, but it is a planet?

    I'm confused now.

    1. Re:Pluto? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Planets orbit the sun, asteroids orbit something else. If a rock among other rocks is orbiting the sun, and it meets the other qualifications, it's a planet..

      No. Asteroids orbit the sun.

      A spherical object orbiting the sun and has cleared its orbit of other large objects is a planet.

    2. Re:Pluto? by Xtifr · · Score: 4, Informative

      The abstract specifically says that Vesta is not an asteroid. When Ceres was reclassified as a dwarf planet, there was some question about Vesta, because it's not a proper spheroid. The question is: was it deformed by external forces or was it just never able to form a proper spheroid?

      Since "baby planet" is not a proper IAU category, I think this means either A) it's a dwarf planet, like Pluto or Ceres, or B) the question is still open, but we've learned something new about its origin--a completely separate matter.

      I think the IAU definitions are extremely silly, but I also think it's extremely silly think that Pluto is special, or any more deserving of planet status than Ceres, which was not considered a planet for many, many years. Personally, I'd rather see a definition of planet that includes Ceres and excludes Pluto than the reverse. (Though I'm also open to a definition that includes Ceres, Pluto, Luna, Ganymede, Titan, and more.)

    3. Re:Pluto? by colinrichardday · · Score: 3, Funny

      So basically Vesta is Earth's aborted little sister.

      Oh great, give the Republicans another excuse to cut science funding.

    4. Re:Pluto? by Requiem18th · · Score: 2

      No one is saying that Vesta *is* a planet *right now* rather, that Vesta is a planetary core capable of acting like a seed and become a planet by clearing its orbit, if only Jupiter wasn't there. So, no, Vesta is no planet, but it's no mere asteroid, that's why they called it a "baby planet"

      Pluto wasn't "demoted" from planet to asteroid. It was moved into is category of plutoids because it is not the "only pluto" in our solar system, nor the only pluto in Pluto's orbit.

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    5. Re:Pluto? by Sperbels · · Score: 3, Insightful

      (fusion-driven radiation emitters)

      That doesn't seem to work for white dwarf stars.

    6. Re:Pluto? by osu-neko · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...space debris orbiting the earth...

      Wait, Pluto orbits the Earth now?

      Everything orbits the Earth. Heliocentrism is a fraud, brought to use by the same "scientists" as evolution, global warming, and that dubious round-earth theory. :p

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    7. Re:Pluto? by snowgirl · · Score: 2

      ...space debris orbiting the earth...

      Wait, Pluto orbits the Earth now?

      Everything orbits the Earth. Heliocentrism is a fraud, brought to use by the same "scientists" as evolution, global warming, and that dubious round-earth theory. :p

      Exactly! Everyone knows that Pluto orbits in an epicycle!

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    8. Re:Pluto? by Iskender · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd rather see a definition of planet that includes Ceres and excludes Pluto than the reverse.

      I don't see what would put Ceres and Pluto in different categories under any system. Neither has cleared its orbit (I too think this is a silly criterion.) Both have the hydrostatic equilibrium thing going. Both orbit the sun directly.

      Well, there *is* one peculiarity about Pluto: the barycenter of the Pluto-Charon system is outside both. While I dislike the clear the neighbourhood criterion I think this system is actually the strongest proof of the current planet definition being temporary: Pluto-Charon is a binary (dwarf) planet, yet no one has bothered to even mention Charon. Instead one of our current dwarf planets orbits an empty piece of space.

    9. Re:Pluto? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      How could someone so obviously clueless about the makeup of our solar system feel compelled to comment on that post?

      How could someone so obviously clueless about the makeup of Slashdot feel compelled to comment on that comment?

    10. Re:Pluto? by harperska · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, what they have found, and what makes this newsworthy, is that Vesta's composition is much more like the terrestrials (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Luna, Mars) than what they believe Ceres' composition is. They now believe that Vesta belongs to the terrestrial family, having a silicate rock crust/mantle surrounding an iron core. Ceres, on the other hand, is probably made primarily of an ice crust/mantle with a rock core, putting it in the same family as the moons of the gas giants, and the Kuiper Belt objects like Pluto. So while Ceres and Vesta live in the same castle, they are adopted from different families.

      They will know more when Dawn leaves Vesta and visits Ceres, though.

    11. Re:Pluto? by snowgirl · · Score: 2

      Titan does not orbit the sun directly...

      Neither does "Luna"... *

      *some might argue it is a double planet system, in which case, I withdraw my snarky comment

      Well, if the Earth is a double planet system, then Pluto and Charon even more so would be a double planet system, considering at least that the point of rotation in the Earth-Moon system is located within the Earth, while Pluto-Charon orbits around a point in open space...

      Note that I did not mention any of the other planetoids specifically because I only needed on counter example. And "Luna == the Earth's moon" is kind of weird nomenclature for me. (Yes, I do know it's correct, but still.)

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    12. Re:Pluto? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Funny

      Since "baby planet" is not a proper IAU category, I think this means either A) it's a dwarf planet, like Pluto or Ceres, or B) the question is still open, but we've learned something new about its origin--a completely separate matter.

      It's not a baby planet, it's not a dwarf planet. It's a proto-planet stuck in proto- state due to Jupiter.

      I like to think of it as an aborted planet.

      Obviously we need to outlaw Jupiter to prevent further proto-planet abortions.. Furthermore, we need full funding of a federal agency to ensure Jupiter isn't available to all wanton sinners who would otherwise bring a planet to full term.

      Well, folks, seems to me like we finally figured out how to ensure NASA's budget isn't axed.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    13. Re:Pluto? by Teancum · · Score: 2

      Pluto+Charon are a double dwarf planet system. On the other hand, I would call Luna (more correctly... The Moon, which is its proper Anglo-Saxon name) a dwarf planet as well.

      If there is a term to be depreciated, it would be "moon", other than in connection with objects orbiting inside of the Hill sphere of a non-stellar body. A better term would be satellite, other than the fact that "artificial satellites" seem to have taken on the term. An object orbiting another object which is in turn orbiting a 3rd object (all within nested Hill Spheres of progressively larger objects) has not been discovered yet where the first object is "natural" (hasn't been put there by the hand of mankind) and all three are not stellar objects. A Moon of Ganymede or Titan seems a little far fetched, and their Hill spheres are pretty small due to their proximity to the planets they orbit respectively, even though the Hill spheres of Jupiter and Saturn in respect to the Sun certainly are large enough to incorporate those two objects.

      The concept of a Hill sphere does work with asteroids that have satellites of their own, but the point here is that the definition of a planet doesn't need to even worry about the fact that it may or may not be a satellite of something else.

    14. Re:Pluto? by symbolset · · Score: 2

      Asteroids usually orbit the sun. Sometimes for a little while they'll set up unstable orbits around some other body, like the Earth or the Moon on a brief vacation - and then continue on their voyage..

      --
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  2. And it's a Good Thing (tm) by Barbara,+not+Barbie · · Score: 5, Insightful
    ... because otherwise, Vesta would have sucked up all the material there, including a lot that went into Jupiter, and become the equivalent of Jupiter, but closer.

    That would have turned Mars into an asteroid belt ... and Earth into an undersized Mars.

    And since Venus is just too darn close to the sun to support life ... another lifeless solar system.

    --
    Let's call it what it is, Anti-Social Media.
    1. Re:And it's a Good Thing (tm) by chebucto · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Are you sure about that?

      My astronomy is rusty, but I seem to recall that the inner planets are rocky because their proximity to the sun meant they were unable to build up the kind of atmosphere the gas giants did: their atmospheres boiled off before they could grow to the mammoth proportions of the gas giants.

      Given the distance from the sun to Cerers, would Ceres ever have been able to form into a gas giant?

      Anyway, who's to say Jupiter (or at least its moons) are lifeless? :|]

      --
      The English word fart is one of the oldest words in the English vocabulary.
    2. Re:And it's a Good Thing (tm) by Solandri · · Score: 5, Informative

      That was the old theory. The problem with studying the cosmology of star systems is that until recently we only had a sample of one. When they started finding planets orbiting other stars, they tended to be gas giants because of the methods used (orbit perturbations, light falloff due to occultations). But a surprising number of these gas giants orbit closely around their parent star. IIRC one has an orbit whose period is a few Earth-weeks. At this point, I think you can say all bets are off.

    3. Re:And it's a Good Thing (tm) by harperska · · Score: 2

      "Hot Jupiters" are thought to have formed in an outer orbit, and then migrated inwards, perhaps by being perturbed by another passing star. It is highly unlikely for a gas giant to form that close to a star, but very likely for a planet's orbit to be jostled by something passing by.

  3. nice try, planetary scientists by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Funny

    You think this bone you're throwing to Vesta is going to make us forgive what you did to poor Pluto?

    1. Re:nice try, planetary scientists by Xtifr · · Score: 2

      Oh piffle. The real mistake was back when they decided to classify poor Ceres as an asteroid. The whole nonsense about Pluto appears to be nothing but fallout from that earlier mistake, compounded by a reluctance to grant Ceres the full planetary status it so richly deserves. Ceres is more like Mercury than Mercury is like Jupiter or Pluto.

      The old list you learned which included Pluto but not Ceres was simply arbitrary, wrong, and stupid. The current classification is certainly no worse, and is arguably somewhat better, even though I think it could be greatly improved.

  4. Please keep Baby Vesta safe! by CuteSteveJobs · · Score: 3, Funny

    Please don't tell Neil deGrasse Tyson about this or he will kill baby Vesta safe just like he killed its older sibling Pluto. This man is worse than the Pharaoh!

    Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson on killing Pluto: 'All I did was drive the getaway car'
    http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/26/2903224/dr-neil-degrasse-tyson-killing-pluto-on-the-verge

  5. "history is written by the victors" by circletimessquare · · Score: 2

    it's a cynical quote, because it's not really true: principles actually define winners and losers

    but it certainly applies to planet formation

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  6. Re:Pluto Takes Out Neptune by petsounds · · Score: 3, Funny

    And if a group of pro-Plutoans happen to make Neptune...disappear...does Pluto still get planetary status?

  7. Planet definition is bunk. by harperska · · Score: 2

    The whole problem with finding a definition of 'planet' is that stuff in the solar system can either be defined by its composition or its location. Objects with similar composition that look like exactly the same sort of thing when seen in isolation are often found in very different locations. And the IAU decided in its infinite wisdom to use location as the primary means classification rather than composition. Unfortunately, that decision is at odds with both sentimentality (as is seen with the whole Pluto fiasco) and with scientific usefulness. As we study extrasolar planetary systems, it has become clear that objects orbiting stars are very likely to change locations over time. Objects move from higher orbits to lower orbits and vice versa, Objects are captured into orbit by other objects, and objects are ejected from orbit around other objects, etc. So when studying a solar system, classifying objects by where they are in the system is scientifically meaningless as the objects quite possibly did not form in that location, and certainly may not remain in that location for the lifetime of the system's star.

    So I propose Harperska's planetary classification system:

    Terrestrial dwarf - large enough to attain hydrostatic equilibrium and differentiation. Mantle/crust comprised of rock, with iron core. 6 objects in solar system: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Luna, Mars, Vesta.

    Asteroid - terrestrial dwarf like object, not large enough to attain hydrostatic equilibrium.

    Ice dwarf - large enough to attain hydrostatic equilibrium and differentiation. Mantle/crust comprised of frozen volatiles (water, methane, ammonia), with rocky core. This class includes Ceres, the moons of the gas and ice giants, and Kuiper belt objects like Pluto and Eris.

    Comet - ice dwarf like object, not large enough to attain hydrostatic equilibrium.

    Gas Giant - comprised largely of hydrogen and helium. 2 objects in solar system: Jupiter and Saturn.

    Ice Giant - comprised largely of volatiles (water, methane, ammonia) with a hydrogen/helium atmosphere. 2 objects in solar system: Neptune and Uranus.