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An 8,000 Ton Giant Made the Jet Age Possible

Hugh Pickens writes "Tim Heffernan writes that when 'The Fifty,' as it's known in company circles, broke down three years ago, there was talk of retiring it for good. Instead, Alcoa decided to overhaul their 50,000-ton, 6-story high forging press, now scheduled to resume service early this year. 'What sets the Fifty apart is its extraordinary scale,' writes Heffernan. 'Its 14 major structural components, cast in ductile iron, weigh as much as 250 tons each; those yard-thick steel bolts are also 78 feet long; all told, the machine weighs 16 million pounds, and when activated its eight main hydraulic cylinders deliver up to 50,000 tons of compressive force.' The Fifty could bench-press the battleship Iowa, with 860 tons to spare, but it's the Fifty's amazing precision — its tolerances are measured in thousandths of an inch—that gives it such far-reaching utility. Every manned US military aircraft now flying uses parts forged by the Fifty, as does every commercial aircraft made by Airbus and Boeing making the Jet Age possible. 'On a plane, a pound of weight saved is a pound of thrust gained—or a pound of lift, or a pound of cargo,' writes Heffernan. 'Without the ultra-strong, ultra-light components that only forging can produce, they'd all be pushing much smaller envelopes.' The now-forgotten Heavy Press Program (PDF), inaugurated in 1950 and completed in 1957, resulted in four presses (including the Fifty) and six extruders — giant toothpaste tubes squeezing out long, complex metal structures such as wing ribs and missile bodies. 'Today, America lacks the ability to make anything like the Heavy Press Program machines,' concludes Heffernan, adding that 'The Fifty' will be supplying bulkheads through 2034 for the Joint Strike Fighter. 'Big machines are the product of big visions, and they make big visions real. How about a Heavy Fusion Program?'"

307 comments

  1. now technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We see various technologies come and go, one hit wonders, ephemeral vapourware and promises of the next big thing.

    When I read this, it made the engineer in me happy to think some things last longer.

    1. Re:now technology by Kergan · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      The only trouble is... it won't blend.

    2. Re:now technology by JustOK · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It IS the blender.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    3. Re:now technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing the scale of this... It's the machine that makes the blender making machines!

    4. Re:now technology by camperdave · · Score: 1

      To paraphrase Letterman:
      "Archimedes once said 'Give me a lever and I shall move the Earth'. Well, I say give me a 50,000 ton press, and I can squash anything!"

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    5. Re:now technology by Jessified · · Score: 1

      But can it forge me some armor made of dragon bones? That's what I want to know.

      I would level up so fast on that thing.

    6. Re:now technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've always loved the older technologies for their ability to just keep going. In fact, just a few days ago, I finished cleaning up an old 1950's Remington typewriter. It hasn't been touched in decades in my parents' damp, cold basement, was covered with more dust and grime than I thought was physically possible, but a lot of hours of cleaning later, and every key still works absolutely perfectly. Found a place online that still sells ribbons, so I've got it typing again. And odds are, unless it's dropped from something high up (and it even has a good chance of surviving that, since it's over 30 pounds of stainless steel), it'll probably last well until after I'm gone.

      The new technology may be awesome for what it can do, but the old technology is awesome for what it can survive and keep going through.

      Captcha: "keyboard". I don't think I've ever seen a more fitting captcha.

    7. Re:now technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only real question is how many Libraries of Congress will it bench press?

    8. Re:now technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't trust it. Especially don't do any drugs it offers you.

    9. Re:now technology by tlhIngan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've always loved the older technologies for their ability to just keep going. In fact, just a few days ago, I finished cleaning up an old 1950's Remington typewriter. It hasn't been touched in decades in my parents' damp, cold basement, was covered with more dust and grime than I thought was physically possible, but a lot of hours of cleaning later, and every key still works absolutely perfectly. Found a place online that still sells ribbons, so I've got it typing again. And odds are, unless it's dropped from something high up (and it even has a good chance of surviving that, since it's over 30 pounds of stainless steel), it'll probably last well until after I'm gone.

      The new technology may be awesome for what it can do, but the old technology is awesome for what it can survive and keep going through.

      Well, the old technology is like that because it's overdesigned to be like that. It survives because all the parts are stronger than they need to be (material science being what it was then, and quality variance between batches was probably a lot higher) because they had to - unlike modern manufacturing processes where we can get remarkably consistent raw materials due to smeltters carefully controlling the alloys. When your inputs are of varying quality, you compensate by overdesigning. And yes, it happens today in the semiconductor industry - it's remarkably hard to produce a consistent product so transistors and such are overdesigned to compensate (we can spec chips to run slower, we avoid use of passive components (it's difficult to get resistors/capacitors to come out with less than a 20% tolerance in silicon - there are many "equivalent" circuits done using transistors which are easier to match), etc.

      Plus, we also have survivor bias - the "old stuff" survives because we threw out the crap that failed long ago. Heck, your typewriter may be a victim of that - it's just you got one of the few good ones. When things were cranked out by the thousands, it happens.

    10. Re:now technology by Kergan · · Score: 1

      Sheesh... whoever rated this flame bait out to grow a sense of humor...

      http://www.willitblend.com/

    11. Re:now technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Something you do forget is the people doing the assembly and machining of components on machines like this. The people would have cared so, so, so much. I operate A 40ft planer mill built in the 1950's. We make parts for hydro dams, bridges, trains and various other big stuff. Now we often times hold tolerances much, much tighter than what is required just to ensure the final massive project has the best parts we can possibly make. For example, say the over all length of a part is shown on the print as +/- 1/32 of an inch. We can just as easily hold that to +/-.005 on a good day, and thus, we do so.

    12. Re:now technology by SteveFoerster · · Score: 1

      All of them.

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    13. Re:now technology by DoninIN · · Score: 1

      overdesigned, you seem to have misspelled "well made" there. Machine tools are not consumer goods. Machine tools are not electronic toys. Machine tools are what we used to call "durable goods" because they were built to last.

    14. Re:now technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... into a 1M cube.

    15. Re:now technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That old technology still stands because there was no "planned obsolescence" concept like today. Things were considered to last for years, and only design or material flaws were putting them to risk of failure. Today, that failures are a product itself, put there on purpose, just to brake the thing and make you go buy another one to replace it. That's why there are no more "good things like the old things".

    16. Re:now technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but will it blend?

    17. Re:now technology by JavaManJim · · Score: 1

      I love these old machines. Here the sturdy cast iron Royal Typewriter. They work nearly forever and give your fingers a little workout as you use it. I myself have an old Royal that I got off eBay used by this guy's mom then put into a garage forever. Its the kind with a glass panel on each side. Need to clean everything up just like you did.

      Then I had a Sears Kenmore lawnmower once that was magnesium and clearly forged by a nifty fifty or its variant.

  2. Sometimes by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Bigger is better

  3. Wow! by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's something completely fascinating that I never knew before! It's days like this that remind me what it was like to be young - when everything was new and exciting. Thanks, internet!

    --
    Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
    altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
  4. "On a plane, ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ... a pound of weight saved is a pound of thrust gained."

    Really? So if I throw two snakes out of the window, the engines will provide one pound more of thrust?

    1. Re:"On a plane, ... by Barbara,+not+Barbie · · Score: 1, Funny

      Really? So if I throw two snakes out of the window, the engines will provide one pound more of thrust?

      You're doing it wrong - you have to throw the snakes INTO the plane ... the thrust is from all the H1Bs then jumping out.

      --
      Let's call it what it is, Anti-Social Media.
    2. Re:"On a plane, ... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 3, Informative

      Relative to the weight of the plane, yes, it would be the same as adding two more pounds of thrust, though you'd gain a slight advantage in maneuverability due to less mass.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    3. Re:"On a plane, ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell kind of airplane are you flying that has a lift to drag ratio of 1/2?

    4. Re:"On a plane, ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, lift to drag ratio of 1.

    5. Re:"On a plane, ... by tragedy · · Score: 1

      Sorry, not making sense to me. If you point the engines of a large passenger jet straight downward and power them up to full thrust, the jet is just going to sit there on the runway. Nearly all planes are built with a thrust to weight ratio of less than 1. So two snakes of thrust thrown out of the window is going to be less than two snakes worth of thrust.

  5. Actually not every... by Richard_at_work · · Score: 4, Informative

    There are Airbus and Boeing planes built using parts made by the lower capacity presses used while this one was unserviceable or down for maintenance...

    1. Re:Actually not every... by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Ahh the FA extends the comment made out to all presses in the Heavy Press Program - the summary is wrong.

    2. Re:Actually not every... by macshome · · Score: 1

      I was wondering about that. TFA (and TFS) makes it sound as if they simply stockpiled parts before it broke down and now didn't know what to do.

    3. Re:Actually not every... by HighOrbit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe... remember that Boeing only delievers between 300-500 craft per year with order lead times of several years. I suspect that Airbus is similiar. With that much lead time and low numbers, its possible they forged those specific parts ahead and Boeing/Airbus held them in inventory. In fact, that would make sense given the tooling and setup on a machine like this, because it would be cheaper to do a large production run of a certain quantity than to forge each item 'just in time' and have to re-tool for each peice or seperate run. So, its very possible, and I would think likely, that every one really does use parts produced on this machine.

    4. Re:Actually not every... by Pogdranaut · · Score: 0

      Russia has a 75,000 ton press, which is used by Airbus, and other leading manufacturers.

  6. Summary contains entire article... plus some? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TFS includes almost the entire content of TFA. On the other hand, the provocative "lacks the ability", "big visions" and "heavy fusion" comments all seem to be figments of the submitter's imagination, as none appear in the article.

    1. Re:Summary contains entire article... plus some? by Barbara,+not+Barbie · · Score: 2

      Maybe the submitter thinks that a "big enough" press will be able to do "heavy fusion?" Never mind that "big enough" in this case would be ~ the size of a dwarf star ...

      --
      Let's call it what it is, Anti-Social Media.
    2. Re:Summary contains entire article... plus some? by dpilot · · Score: 1

      Heck, I'd settle for putting a lump of coal into it, to get diamonds, just like Superman.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    3. Re:Summary contains entire article... plus some? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The summary is a summary of the article on BoingBoing, here:

      http://boingboing.net/2012/02/13/machines.html

      which mentions all of those things. (Specifically, the company that built the press went bankrupt some decades ago and the machines used to cast the parts of that size have been sold for scrap). The link is to a similar article in The Atlantic, for whatever reason.

    4. Re:Summary contains entire article... plus some? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      no the submitter is wrongly thinking that if you'd take over the europe now you would find working fusion reactor models to clone with government money....

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    5. Re:Summary contains entire article... plus some? by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Heck, I'd settle for putting a lump of coal into it, to get diamonds, just like Superman.

      Shove it up Cameron's ass. Sure, it might take two weeks, but reports are that it works.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  7. The future will be printed, not forged. by EasyTarget · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Modern planes, and other transport/engineering structures, are moving to composites. Which are layered, printed, sometimes pressure baked and squeezed into form. But no longer forged on this scale.

    While these machines are awesome, I've wandered along a car body stamping line and watched plates go from a flat sheet to a car door in 100meters, they are becoming less necessary to us. They will still be needed, of course, for some jobs where only such a monster can help, but I think the US should look on these as potential future museum pieces, with nostalgia for a bygone age of megaengineering, rather than a source of future industrial dominance.

    --
    "Oops, I always forget the purpose of competition is to divide people into winners and losers." - Hobbes
    1. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh do shut up already.

    2. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by guises · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I know very little about metal working, but it seems to me that when you have the capability to do something unique it would be foolish to give up that ability. Even if a new process comes along that is faster and cheaper for most purposes.

    3. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by hackertourist · · Score: 5, Interesting

      While in many applications it may be possible to replace metal with composites, there are always going to be corner cases. It wouldn't be too big a deal to lose one of these 50-kt machines, but losing the capability worldwide is another matter.

      I'm reminded of a story a while back about there being only one company worldwide that can cast nuclear reactor vessels.

    4. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by icebrain · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Composites aren't going to replace everything. Landing gear and landing gear mounts, engine mounts, critical bulkheads, etc. will still be made of forged metal for a long, long time. Even with additive manufacturing techniques, forging will still be necessary because the forging process itself is what puts the strength in the parts.

      --
      The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    5. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Grayhand · · Score: 5, Informative

      Apples and oranges. This type of forge isn't used for basic structure but high strength parts. While some parts can be redesigned for composites the materials aren't interchangeable. The only other process like it is using explosives to create exotic alloys but that process only is practical on a small scale. It reminds me of old battleships. People don't realize that some processes can't be duplicated today. Working with large scale multi-ton parts is old technology and tough to replicate. Another example is high performance submarine propellers. The US has the only mill in the world that can produce the propellers used in high speed silent running. Composites aren't a magic product that replaces everything that came before it. If they were then why isn't anyone making engine blocks out of them? They have their uses but they have their limits as well.

    6. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Printing cannot match the resulting material strength and production speed of forging.

    7. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by damburger · · Score: 2

      I'm sorry, but I can't see any evidence that what these machines can do can be replicated by additive processes.

      Yes, additive manufacture is great, but it isn't a universal construction technique. Don't forget please, that the last country that thought you could just dump heavy industry and replace it with small scale operations didn't do very well.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    8. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by c0lo · · Score: 2

      They will still be needed, of course, for some jobs where only such a monster can help,

      Yeah, like TFS (seems to) suggest:

      'Big machines are the product of big visions, and they make big visions real. How about a Heavy Fusion Program?'"

      I just wonder if 50,000 tons would be enough, though.

      (ducks)

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    9. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by rhook · · Score: 5, Informative

      Composites aren't a magic product that replaces everything that came before it. If they were then why isn't anyone making engine blocks out of them? They have their uses but they have their limits as well.

      I present to you the carbon fiber engine block.

      http://www.thecarbonfiberjournal.com/?p=770

    10. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 0

      ..only used for a large number of US planes ...

      Obviously no-one else made jets, so did not need an equivalent machine ... like Russia, UK, France, China, etc .. etc .. etc ...

      If you want one of these I'm sure China has a couple to spare ...

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    11. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I present to you the carbon fiber engine block.

      http://www.thecarbonfiberjournal.com/?p=770

      Interesting, but no way I am putting one in my GTO.

    12. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by tgd · · Score: 5, Informative

      Modern planes, and other transport/engineering structures, are moving to composites. Which are layered, printed, sometimes pressure baked and squeezed into form. But no longer forged on this scale.

      While these machines are awesome, I've wandered along a car body stamping line and watched plates go from a flat sheet to a car door in 100meters, they are becoming less necessary to us. They will still be needed, of course, for some jobs where only such a monster can help, but I think the US should look on these as potential future museum pieces, with nostalgia for a bygone age of megaengineering, rather than a source of future industrial dominance.

      Even a rudimentary knowledge of chemistry would help you understand how you're wrong. There are fundamental differences at the atomic level between things that are cast, forged, and "printed" in the manner that modern metal-based 3D printing works. The Venn diagram of things forged metal is good for and composites are good for has some overlap, but not a lot.

      Thankfully, the engineers who are actually building things know the difference.

    13. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by brusk · · Score: 1

      And will let other countries build military hardware with them?

      --
      .sig withheld by request
    14. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be a republican *lower case intentional.

    15. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by hackertourist · · Score: 2

      The US has the only mill in the world that can produce the propellers used in high speed silent running.

      Didn't Toshiba get in trouble years ago over exporting high-quality CNC mills to the USSR for exactly this?

    16. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by dpilot · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is what I've been wondering about with 3D printing... From what I've seen, current additive 3D printing has been with plastic, though I'll admit that my knowledge is sketchy.

      Seems to me that it would be a simple matter to use 3D printing to build a model for traditional metal casting methods. But as mentioned, none of that gives you the strength of forged metal. So is there a way to combine 3D printing with casting and some sort of "generic" forging process?

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    17. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by HybridST · · Score: 1

      I foresee forgeable composits in the relatively-near future. Materials science has made many strides with meta-materials and the funky stuff they can do but that has got to be just the first steps in improving upon our current bevy of standbys like drop-forged steel. With enough time we as a species will find better materials and processes than what raw-nature can afford us.

      Until then though we've managed some impressive things so far but some of us will see what the next fifty years will bring us.

      --
      Ever notice that Cobra Commander sounds an awful lot like Star scream?
    18. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      Depends on the material. We won't be printing parts that could be made with this press forge anytime soon. Right now, you can fabricate some plastic and some light metal parts. The plastic might be reasonably sturdy, but the sintered metal parts aren't the same class as stuff that's made from this press. Until you actually have molecular assemblers...you're not having "printing" removing this stuff. To say it will right now is folly.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    19. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neat story, thanks for the link!

      But I couldn't help reading this:
      nuclear reactor vessels
      in Chekov's voice.

    20. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Don't forget engine components first and foremost.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    21. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by justthinkit · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Even a rudimentary knowledge of material science would help you understand how you're wrong.
      .

      According to Chemistry, a forged and a non-forged part are identical.

      -- a chem. eng.

      --
      I come here for the love
    22. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by johanwanderer · · Score: 1

      Actually, I remember reading something in NewScientist (??) about global consolidation, where all the (specialized) nuts and bolts in the world are made by just one or two factories, and there are no redundancies in a lot of sectors anymore because it is cheaper to consolidate specialized manufacturing into one location.

      I just hope those locations are disaster proof.

    23. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by ultranova · · Score: 1

      'Big machines are the product of big visions, and they make big visions real. How about a Heavy Fusion Program?'"

      I just wonder if 50,000 tons would be enough, though.

      No, it's short about 1.4*10^26 tons.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    24. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I hope those locations are bomb proof. Stories like these just expose the soft targets in industry. The sheer bulk of the fifty should keep it in one piece, but it wouldn't be able to meet its design tolerances after a few explosions.

    25. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by camperdave · · Score: 4, Funny

      No. Russian subs use Magnetohydrodynamic 'caterpillar' drives. They're so silent that you can hear the crew singing the national anthem as they slip away from you.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    26. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by jandrese · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The "ability is lost" when the last plant capable of doing it shuts down. The knowledge isn't lost (we hope), but for various reasons (typically it was being done cheaper overseas) the actual facilities will close. If we had to, we could rebuild/reopen the plants here, but it would take a few years and the investors would want some sort of guarantee that the same economic forces that caused the previous plants to close won't apply to the new plant.

      We are seeing this today with the rare earth mining industry, where all of the US mines shut down because China was exporting government subsidized minerals for peanuts. Then, when they got a monopoly on the rare earth market, they suddenly shot the prices up and started raking in the cash. Now the US company is reopening their plant because the economic conditions are favorable and because worldwide demand is growing enough that it will be difficult for China to flood the market again. People were biting their nails over the US "losing the ability to make a strategic resource", but the ability wasn't lost, just on hold while they waited for the economics to turn around.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    27. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by weiserfireman · · Score: 5, Informative

      There are laser-sintering machines that can "print" parts out of powdered metals. Titanium, Aluminum, Bronze can all be used in these machines. While most 3d printers use low temp plastics, like ABS, there is one sintering machine in the Midwest that uses PEEK plastic.

      Laser-Sintering machines start at about $500k now. Significantly cheaper than they were 10 years ago

    28. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by mhajicek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a machinist and CNC programmer I do know a fair bit about metalworking, and I think you have a good point. Even if composites are better for aircraft, perhaps forgings will be needed for other purposes such as spacecraft. Available and affordable composites may not function desirably in the thermal extremes of space.

    29. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by mhajicek · · Score: 2

      In general 3D printing techniques result in lower strength parts, however it seems that laser sintered Titanium alloy parts are comparable in strength to parts made by other means. http://www.onlineamd.com/amd-0310-laser-sintered-titanium-eos-shellabear.aspx Work hardening the surface of the part can be accomplished by shot peening or laser peening instead of by forging.

    30. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then it's a good thing chem engineers dont make airplanes. it may be chemically the same, but it is not materially, mechanically, or structurally the same.

      a forged part is strongest, period. if they were 100% identical, there would be no advantage to forging.
      ergo, your post was a waste of bandwidth.

    31. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eutectic and Austentitic forging results in different crystalline structures. They are different, chemically, the same was a diamond and graphite are different. Emperically, yes, all carbon. But different arrangements of carbon which react differently to different chemical agents.

    32. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Fnord666 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Seems to me that it would be a simple matter to use 3D printing to build a model for traditional metal casting methods. But as mentioned, none of that gives you the strength of forged metal. So is there a way to combine 3D printing with casting and some sort of "generic" forging process?

      3D printing is compatible with both casting and forging. 3D printing is a good way to make the initial master model for a casting mold. It can also be used to create the model from which the forging dies will be created.

      As far as 3D printing replacing forging, that's a different story. The forging process itself affects the material being forged, essentially aligning the "grains" of the metal along the contours of the piece. This is what gives forged parts increased strength. At this point I don't believe we can replicate that with any known 3D printing technique.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    33. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The knowledge isn't lost (we hope)

      There is TONS of knowledge in industrial processes that only people who work on it every day really know. I've done some work in software for Steel manufacturing, and I tell you first hand, that many of the "Recipes" are over 50 years old and scribbled in the notebooks of the people who run the mills. These "Recipes" vary for each press/line and if the specifications are not followed exactly, it's the difference between good steel and shit. The "theory" is well documented in texts on metallurgy etc, but, the actual practice, where the rubber meets the road, not so much. When these types of plants shutdown and the people who have been doing it for years retire without passing on that knowledge and experience, it is LOST. In order to get it going again will take many years for people who have learned the theory to actually work out all the kinks in practice.

    34. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by darkmeridian · · Score: 2

      Researchers are investigating the use of metal printing presses to produce stronger and lighter parts that are currently being forged. Metal printing techniques allow hollow parts to be made much easier than other techniques. Therefore, the nerds want to make strong metal parts that are lighter and stronger due to tight control of the metal particles and hollow. I hope they succeed.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    35. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hardening the surface

      shot peening or laser peening

      Ooooh! You so nasty! (/Jackée)

    36. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      then it's a good thing chem engineers dont make airplanes. it may be chemically the same, but it is not materially, mechanically, or structurally the same.

      ...which was his point. The person to whom he was responding said "Even a rudimentary knowledge of chemistry would help you understand how you're wrong. There are fundamental differences at the atomic level between things that are cast, forged, and "printed" in the manner that modern metal-based 3D printing works.", and his reply was saying that it's not a matter of chemistry, it's a matter of materials science.

    37. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You were off to such a good start. Chemistry says that the atoms are the same. Material science tells you that the structure that bonds the atoms together and transfers stress is fundamentally different in a forged part.

    38. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Just ask the guys who built the ships that sailed men to the moon and back in the 1960's.

    39. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by sackbut · · Score: 1

      The "ability is lost" when the last plant capable of doing it shuts down. The knowledge isn't lost (we hope), but for various reasons (typically it was being done cheaper overseas) the actual facilities will close. If we had to, we could rebuild/reopen the plants here, but it would take a few years and the investors would want some sort of guarantee that the same economic forces that caused the previous plants to close won't apply to the new plant.

      One item you can add to the economic decisions are the environmental decisions. It may be considered "too expensive" in environmental costs/damages to rebuild a plant or utilize a manufacturing process. So although the knowledge is there, it cannot be acted upon.

    40. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by planckscale · · Score: 1

      For those who are unfamiliar with sintering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88BPmL8cGAo

      --
      Namaste
    41. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by TheLink · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even if the locations are disaster proof, if you stop being able to ship stuff easily for whatever reason, you stop being able to make stuff. And the ability to ship stuff easily from country to country depends on a lot of things "working OK".

      Our civilization is actually very fragile and becoming more so. Lots of specialization and interdependence.

      I hope more people (including our leaders) realize this and don't do anything stupid.

      It's like the human body, you blow away both kidneys or a liver it ain't gonna work that well anymore.

      Whereas you could hack a branch off a tree and it usually doesn't matter that much to the tree's survival, you could even stick the branch in the ground and there's a chance it might become another tree (the chance increases if you do it right).

      And when you go to fungi or bacteria, it matters even less.

      --
    42. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YES!
      Exactly. Thank you.

    43. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 3D printing crowd is nearly as delusional as the Space Nutter crowd.

    44. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      well, the fifty isn't the only one.

      anyhow - it wouldn't be the end of the world if all of them would be blown up at the same time either.
      basically it would mean 1-2 year delays for some parts, but that's it. and a lot of work building replacements.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    45. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      It's like the human body, you blow away both kidneys or a liver it ain't gonna work that well anymore.

      Pfft. If you lose one of your livers, the other one will compensate, just like our hearts.

    46. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by jandrese · · Score: 1

      That's just us exporting our pollution to other countries though. Eventually they'll have their own environmental catastrophes and be forced to clean up by the angry mobs. Once your rivers are on fire and everybody has cancer it is hard to ignore the environmental impacts. Eventually the world has to accept a higher price for the commodity so it can be produced in a more ecologically friendly manner.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    47. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by jandrese · · Score: 1

      The fundamentals are still there though. Worst case is people on the assembly lines have to rediscover the tricks that their grandfathers used.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    48. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by mcrbids · · Score: 1

      They will still be needed, of course, for some jobs where only such a monster can help, but I think the US should look on these as potential future museum pieces

      Why? Technologies don't necessarily become obsolete! Despite thousands of years of active development, science has yet to find a suitable replacement for the wheel.... Some technologies are mature and viable basically forever.

      If printed parts actually performs better, than I might agree with you. But I'm in no hurry to deprecate anything that obviously works so fabulously well.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    49. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by rhook · · Score: 1

      Neither would I considering that it is only a 4-cylinder.

    50. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No need to quote the word grains. That is what they are called.

    51. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Algae_94 · · Score: 1

      The difference of course is that additive processes are mostly concerned with making a piece that is the right shape. The microstructure of the produced piece may be woefully inadequate compared to other methods of production.

    52. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by triffid_98 · · Score: 1

      Oh agreed. Just ask the guys trying to build heat shields for the new moon rocket...

      Composites and Ceramics are great for some applications but for high strength parts that need to stand up to long term abuse I'd put my money on forged steel. You could certainly make some parts of an engine out of composites, but those parts are not pistons/rods/valves, and I doubt the weight savings would be that large compared to something like a magnesium alloy...but as frame and body components they're a great win.

    53. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by adrn01 · · Score: 1

      Close. Modern submarines now use pump-jet propulsion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_class_submarine

    54. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by cheesybagel · · Score: 1
    55. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Or the present - some aircraft engine parts are made from powdered metal composites that have been forged.

    56. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by SpinyManiac · · Score: 1

      Modern? Pump-jet propulsors were invented in 1954 and have been used on submarines since the late 1960s.
      I'd be interested to hear why the USN were so late to the party.

      --
      It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
    57. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      There doesn't seem to be an area component to your calculation, if you could press two hydrogen atoms together using this thing you'd be halfway to a neutron star*! Might take you a while to line them up properly though.

      *Figures roughly calculated and very likely wrong.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    58. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by NikeHerc · · Score: 1

      The US has the only mill in the world that can produce the propellers used in high speed silent running.

      Didn't Jimmy Carter allow the sale of CNC machines by the US to the [former] USSR and didn't the Russkies use the CNC machines to mill near-silent props that went onto their subs?

      --
      Circle the wagons and fire inward. Entropy increases without bounds.
    59. Re:The future will be printed, not forged. by Occams · · Score: 1

      "Then, when they got a monopoly on the rare earth market, they suddenly shot the prices up and started raking in the cash. Now the US company is reopening their plant because the economic conditions are favorable and because worldwide demand is growing enough that it will be difficult for China to flood the market again" The international competition regulator, the WTO, does not work well enough to control a monopoly in China. This is largely due to American contributions to the WTO regulations intended to give an advantage to the USA. The strategy has backfired: too bad, start again. Other than that, this is how the markets are supposed to work. Stop blearing about that. Thew invisible hand was an American idea.

      --
      Heavy is the head that wears the tinfoil hat.
  8. Additive manufacturing? by Karmashock · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This thing is neat and maybe that's the best way to do things. But I thought Boeing was talking about additive manufacturing. I know they have ways of making titanium parts using additive manufacturing. I don't know if they're as strong as forged parts. But once that's cracked this forging process should become obsolete in aerospace. After all, why use solid pieces when you can have pieces articulated down to the level of bone. Fine latices of metal interwoven to build parts that have strength to weight ratios similar to what we see in nature. Sure, metal is stronger then bone. But bone is made out of relatively weak materials. If you build something with the same structure out of metal you could get something very strong and very light.

    Still, very neat machine. I wonder if the Chinese have such a thing and it sounded like the Germans might?

    It would be interesting to know if these machines are critical to a heavy industry economy.

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    1. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Dupple · · Score: 5, Informative
      --
      Watch those corners
    2. Re:Additive manufacturing? by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      A comment from the article mentioned this link about a new Chinese forge that is even bigger.

      --
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    3. Re:Additive manufacturing? by azalin · · Score: 1

      So does Japan. For an overview http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf122_heavy_manufacturing_of_power_plants.html (scroll down a page to see the table)

    4. Re:Additive manufacturing? by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sintered powder metal parts are not only not as strong as forged parts but their failure mode is to snap suddenly instead of bending. In car-land we saw this happen to the 7.3 liter powerstroke in 2001, where Ford went from the forged rods used in the pre-powerstroke International-Navistar 7.3 IDI turbo motor to a new powder metal rod chosen for lower cost. Not only is it not forged (cheaper) but instead of machining caps they are simply cracked off and then they get a cleanup pass, maybe. Unfortunately, they are about 10% more likely to fail and when they do, they are 100% more likely to break utterly rather than simply bending. This is not a solvable problem for steel, because forging creates the grain structure which produces the strongest parts, at least in steel. Ti may be different; don't know.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I understand it, additive manufacturing is somewhat akin to welding; welding on a near molecular level but welding nonetheless. As such, forging will be much stronger of a process as the heat and pressure involved reinforces the work. On the other hand additive manufacturing is going to be orders of magnitude more precise than forging. It really depends on what you want to accomplish. The different processes will complement each other but one is unlikely to supplant the other.

      Sometimes you need welding, sometimes forging, sometimes composites. In the end it's all about using the right tool for the job. Why limit yourself to just a hammer when you have a whole box of tools at your disposal?

    6. Re:Additive manufacturing? by jkflying · · Score: 5, Informative

      The laser Ti benificiation is the strongest additive manufacturing process available at the moment, and even it is very brittle because of the thermal stresses formed when it is produced. These are because as the laser melts the particles they are much hotter than the parts it is bonded with, and as they cool they shrink causing lots of stresses all throughout the material. That said, being able to make a ball inside of a socket during the manufacturing process is quite useful sometimes... not to speak of woven Ti mesh for grafts and such.

      --
      Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
    7. Re:Additive manufacturing? by PeterP · · Score: 5, Funny

      How long until I can buy one at Harbor Freight?

    8. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but it's full of lead and breaks a day after you get it home.

    9. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Boeing was talking about using it to make airframe parts.

      They described a similar problem in that the metal is at different temperatures during the creation. They said they managed that by somehow controlling that temperature throughout to certain tolerances.

      Maybe they exaggerated. But they seemed to imply they had it.

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    10. Re:Additive manufacturing? by beltsbear · · Score: 4, Funny

      How long till harbor freight uses one (of any size) to make it's tools?

    11. Re:Additive manufacturing? by machine321 · · Score: 2

      My understanding was that sintered powder forged metal rods with cracked end-caps were stronger than their standard counterparts. Ford's been using them in gasoline applications since... 1993? Whenever they introduced the 4.6 modular engine in the Mark VIII. They used them because they could make an equal-strength, lighter, less-expensive part, which sounds like a win to me. Of course, I'm not an engineer, so maybe I've been sold a bill of goods.

      The only good article I could find was this, but I'm guessing that's probably biased.

    12. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hello welcome to cast city , population you!

    13. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am pleased someone on this mostly IT website has hands on experience that cast processes are far inferior to forging. Additive processes are even worse.

    14. Re:Additive manufacturing? by justthinkit · · Score: 1

      I was hoping to jump all over you for making a typo. Curse you, benificiation!

      --
      I come here for the love
    15. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Charliemopps · · Score: 2

      Harbor Freight has plenty of forged tools. They also have cast stuff. Sometimes you only need a tool once... why spend $100 on it? Just get the cheap cast version. I needed to pull a bearing out of a transfer case. The bearing puller at my local auto parts store was $150. I got it at HF for $20. Did it break? Yep... So I took it back, free replacement... the second one pulled the bearing. Then I threw the puller in a drawer, never to be used again.

    16. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Lehk228 · · Score: 0

      If it's like everything else out of china it will be announced as being a 100,000lb press but will never actually exceed 30,000lb but the parts will be sold as forged at 80,000lb

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    17. Re:Additive manufacturing? by timeOday · · Score: 1

      I suppose you already know this, but auto parts stores will often let you borrow tools of that nature.

    18. Re:Additive manufacturing? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      They use them because they're cheaper, period, the end. The cracked end-caps in particular are where you save most of the money. These days the sintering process is cheaper than the forging process so you save more there. You can see the problem by looking at a comparison of the grain structure. You can make the grain structure DENSER with powder metal, but this doesn't actually help because what you want is INTERLOCKING grain structure, which you don't get with powder metal. In addition, when you use a fully-forged process, so long as you are not an asshole you end up with a grain structure aligned to the stress applied to the part, whereas in a powder metal part you can cut it in literally any direction and the grain structure looks identical.

      Now, there are assholes out there, so it is totally possible to get a forged part which is inferior to a powder metal part. But so long as you use the same alloy for both, and use it correctly and forge it correctly, you're going to end up with a superior part. This has cropped up time and again, but in particular right now it's why I'm looking at only 1999 and 2000 7.3 powerstrokes, since they added the intercooler in 1999 and went to powder metal rods sometime in 2001, loosely correlated to block numbers. The rods are identical to those in the 7.3 liter IDI ford with factory turbo (1993-1994 only) which were forged, as were those in the earlier IDIs including mine (1992). I got interested in researching this issue when I started looking at 'strokes.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    19. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Thud457 · · Score: 1

      You're not the King of Swamp Castle by any chance, are you?

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    20. Re:Additive manufacturing? by rikkards · · Score: 1

      Seriously this because if they didn't how often do you think it would happen that people would buy a tool, use it once, clean it up and bring it back. It is in their best interest to loan tools

    21. Re:Additive manufacturing? by timeOday · · Score: 1

      And if you don't bring it back, they simply keep your deposit and make an easy sale. I've done it myself.

    22. Re:Additive manufacturing? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      That's an issue with laser sintering in particular, for reason which I would imagine are obvious to most slashdotters. And yes, temperature control is the obvious answer. It's not a big problem with electrical sintering or an issue at all with powder forging.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    23. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Again, I can't even begin to know what I'm talking about beyond saying that I watched a Boeing presentation on the subject where they claimed to solved the problem. They're saying the technology can be used in airframes.

      But I do know you don't stay on top by doing the same thing over and over. You have to innovate. I thought additive manufacturing was the future? If so, push into it. It means all the old equipment has to be replaced or retooled which is an opportunity. It means everyone is starting over. It means old skills in the last technology don't matter so much. It means you can bring in new people, build new factories, and get a fresh start on the whole thing.

      As to Boeing saying they can do additive manufacturing while maintaining strength... That's an advantage too. Everyone and their mother seems to have this press technology figured out. If we have something that no one else has and they can't easily emulate then that gives us an edge. Something to exploit ruthlessly. God knows we need it.

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    24. Re:Additive manufacturing? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm not against additive manufacturing, I'm against its misuse. We used to make bicycles out of steel, now we make them out of aluminum. aluminum got cheaper and we figured out how to make bicycles out of it, and the fact that you have to use more of it isn't a problem in that context. And as it turns out, (some types of) aluminum make dandy connecting rods and pistons. Forged aluminum. :) You use the right material for the job. Some parts, notably parts which don't have to bear a lot of load, can be ideal applications for PM or even MIM. Other parts, which have to take a lot of abuse and/or which have to bear a lot of load, probably ought to be forged. In cases where they just can't be forged, such as the (given, elsewhere in this thread) example of a ball in a socket, you plan around the fact that it's not as strong as forged, and you make it larger.

      What I'm against are claims that PM is stronger than forged metal...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    25. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      it goes without saying that we should use the best material and process.

      I'm not suggesting we use a bad system just because it's new. I was suggesting that someone in the industry had claimed to have figured out how to make these sorts of parts using additive manufacturing.

      Maybe they only mean some parts and not others.

      But additive manufacturing if we can get it to have the same strength as forged metal gives us a great deal more flexibility in shape and composition.

      You could use different types of metal in the same part. Possibly the core is one type and the shell is another.

      The point is supposed to be that this is better. If it isn't, then f' it. I like to think I live in the 21st century and so I'm biased towards things that make me feel that way. But I'm not so pigheaded as to side with technology that doesn't work just because it has that new car smell.

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    26. Re:Additive manufacturing? by mister_playboy · · Score: 1

      They use them because they're cheaper, period, the end. The cracked end-caps in particular are where you save most of the money.

      Cracked end caps are not only cheaper, but they give a better fit and have a more uniform grain pattern than two separately formed pieces do. I think it's a very elegant solution.

      Your complaint is conflating material quality and production process. Forging does not preclude use of the cracking process for end caps.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    27. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So wouldn't the solution be to basically have the parts manufactured in an 'oven' using a high temperature operation laser sinter (maybe with it's own cooling circuit?)
      The idea being similiar to soldering using a warming plate: if the difference in temperatures is lowered you can reduce the chances of the parts failing due to thermal stress, and when complete the parts can be cooled in a more even fashion to ensure their structural integrity.

    28. Re:Additive manufacturing? by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      The tool at the auto parts store was $150... and required a deposit. If I had broken that? yea...

    29. Re:Additive manufacturing? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Cracked end caps are not only cheaper, but they give a better fit and have a more uniform grain pattern than two separately formed pieces do. I think it's a very elegant solution.

      The grain pattern doesn't matter in the CAPS at all, because the kinds of stress that part of the rod are subjected to. It's the middle of the rod where you really see a big difference. A forged rod bends in the middle more often than not before it fails. A PM rod typically snaps without bending much, and then your engine grenades, especially if it is interference but often the broken rod will damage something anyway.

      Forging does not preclude use of the cracking process for end caps.

      Forging from a billet does preclude the use of the cracking process for end caps, and it's one of the big cost improvements by moving away from a fully forged rod. But since it doesn't materially improve strength (that's not where rods generally break anyway) it's quite irrelevant.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  9. Fascinating .. but .. by sirdude · · Score: 0, Troll

    .. I wish America (and all other non-conformists) would get with the metric standard. Did anyone else sigh at the following statement?

    What sets the Fifty apart is its extraordinary scale. Its 14 major structural components, cast in ductile iron, weigh as much as 250 tons each; those yard-thick steel bolts are also 78 feet long; all told, the machine weighs 16 million pounds, and when activated its eight main hydraulic cylinders deliver up to 50,000 tons of compressive force.

    According to WP, there are different "tons" out there. The terse "ton" or "tonne" should mean 1000kg everywhere. When used in terms of poundage, the appropriate terms are apparently "short ton" (US, 2000 lb) and "long ton" (UK, 2240 lb).

    It makes it all the more annoying when people steeped in science and logic continue to pander to these archaic systems instead of phasing them out :S

    1. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by azalin · · Score: 1

      But is far easier to use for baking... On the other hand it seems like part of the nation is starting to convert:
      Metric System Thriving In Nation's Inner Cities

    2. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      .. I wish America (and all other non-conformists) would get with the metric standard.

      America will switch to Metric once everyone standardizes driving on the right side of road in the left side of the car and the entire world standardizes on English as their language.

    3. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by PhunkySchtuff · · Score: 1

      If there were only two countries that drove on the left-hand side of the road, or only two countries that didn't speak English, then I'd imagine that there'd be some pretty heavy international pressure for them to get in line with everyone else. Even if the pressure was more subtle, such as imported vehicles costing more as it's a different model to the entire rest of the world...

    4. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by jkflying · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because that would be a logical choice for the rest of the world. You do realise that the US is much smaller than the rest of the world combined?

      --
      Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
    5. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 2

      I dont know why you are using the UK as the standard... being that it is the only country I'm aware of that still uses the "stone" as a unit of weight measurement.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    6. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      How about 250 megagrams?

    7. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But a short ton is a tonne, to 1 significant figure, and a long ton is even closer. When talking casually in gross terms (components weighing "as much as 250 tons", or press capacity), it really doesn't matter at all.

    8. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, we'll do that once you guys switch to using International English.

      Sincerely,
      The Rest of the World

    9. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by sirdude · · Score: 1

      Where am I using the UK as the standard? They are just as ridiculous with their units as the US. I want a metric system to be used as the standard everywhere.

      I see that I've been marked as a troll by all the american mods :D I for one could not envisage the scale of the machine thanks to the units used.

    10. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      USA is the only country that uses MM/DD/YYYY
      USA is the only country that still uses it's own form of imperial (not the same as anyone else)
      USA is the only country that does not understand 24hr time ...(except the Military)
      USA (and others in NANPA) is the only country that does not have ITU international dialling

      etc .. etc ... Large rich arrogant country will not update to be compatible with the rest of the world ...

      --
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    11. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize most of the world drives on the Right with the car steering wheel on the left.

    12. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by gtall · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No, a large rich arrogant country with a lot of infrastructure built around its standards that would cost a fortune to change.

    13. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      Why the downmod? The guy is right: even though /. is us-centric, such a boondongle of units makes the whole text unclear.

      One day, the US will switch to metric. And that will be a good day.

    14. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

      No, a large rich arrogant country with a lot of infrastructure built around its standards that would cost a fortune to change.

      Actually, since so much of the major companies/manufacturers/infrastructure needs to deal with international standards, they're already dealing in Metric and the like, they'd probably be just as happy to get rid of US Imperial too.

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    15. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      JasterBobaMereel is the only person who doesn't understand that it's means it is. Actually, the membership in your idiot club is quite high....

    16. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 0

      According to WP [wikipedia.org], there are different "tons" out there. The terse "ton" or "tonne" should mean 1000kg everywhere. When used in terms of poundage, the appropriate terms are apparently "short ton" (US, 2000 lb) and "long ton" (UK, 2240 lb).

      It makes it all the more annoying when people steeped in science and logic continue to pander to these archaic systems instead of phasing them out :S

      Yah, it bugs the piss out of me that so many SI evangelists don't know the difference between 1000kg (properly, a Mg, a unit of MASS) and 2000lb (or 2240lb), which are units of FORCE.

      Tell you what, I'll get behind using SI in the USA as soon as the current users of same start using the correct units consistently, rather than pretending that 1kg = 2.2lb like they do now.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    17. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by tibit · · Score: 1

      What is that ITU international dialling you refer to? The +country prefix that works on cellphones? This is available everywhere in the world, U.S. included. As for calling from landlines -- ah, it's some pipe dream. Travel around some and tell me what international dial prefixes have you seen, because I have 5 on my list, and I haven't even tried very hard. Even for pulse dialing there are two offsets worldwide -- one pulse can mean 0 or 1, depending on where you are, and U.S. is not to blame for that one either. Get off your high horse, would you.

      --
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    18. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean the US has to. Neener.

    19. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by sirdude · · Score: 1

      oh, dear. Nice straw man dude. In many ways, you have just clinched the matter for us due to the confusion between pound-mass and pound-force. All the more reason for this shit to just go away.

      Oh, I don't mind using Newtons either.

    20. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      What is that ITU international dialling you refer to? The +country prefix that works on cellphones? This is available everywhere in the world, U.S. included. As for calling from landlines -- ah, it's some pipe dream

      Then the US landline system must have regressed, because I made international calls from the US on a landline, using +country, back in the late '80's or early '90's.

    21. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      USA is the only country that uses MM/DD/YYYY

      Well, there's Canada, but they use MM/DD/YYYY and DD/MM/YYYY - and YYYY-MM-DD.

      USA is the only country that does not understand 24hr time ...(except the Military)

      See previous link.

      USA (and others in NANPA) is the only country that does not have ITU international dialling

      Presumably you mean "all of NANPA has the same ITU-T E.164 country code".

    22. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by tibit · · Score: 1

      Pray tell, how did you enter + using DTMF? Or was it a digital landline, and if so -- which kind? In the U.S., the standard international prefix is 011.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    23. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by tibit · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I wasn't clear: + is not a stand in for a prefix. It's an actual character that you can enter on a cellphone, or on a VOIP phone. I haven't looked into the standards, but presumably ISDN handles + as well, and surely SS7 does, because that's pretty much what runs over the GSM transport IIRC.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    24. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Pray tell, how did you enter + using DTMF?

      By pressing "011" on my phone's keypad. Next question? (If the next question is "how did I know I didn't want to dial the operator?", the answer is "because I pressed the "1"s quickly enough after pressing the "0" - next next question?)

    25. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I wasn't clear: + is not a stand in for a prefix.

      International Telecommunications Union Recommendation E.123 says otherwise:

      6 Diallable symbols

      A diallable symbol is a symbol which is to be dialled and appears on a telephone set to designate either a finger hole of a dial or a push button of a keyset[2[. These symbols can be digits, letters, or other signs. Some desirable properties to be considered when selecting diallable symbols are listed in Annex A.

      7 Procedural symbols

      A procedural symbol is a symbol which tells the subscriber how to dial. Such symbols should not appear in a finger hole or on a push button because they are not to be dialled.

      7.1 International prefix symbol

      The international prefix symbol should be + (plus) and should precede the country code in the international number. It serves to remind the subscriber to dial the international prefix which differs from country to country and also serves to identify the number following as the international telephone number.

      Perhaps some phones allow you to press a "+" key to enter your current locale's international prefix (especially on mobile phones, where a trip might change what that prefix is), but I know of no telephone networks where the only way to make an international call requires that you enter a "+" key.

      It's an actual character that you can enter on a cellphone, or on a VOIP phone.

      ...as well as being a "procedural symbol" used in "international telephone numbers ... on letterheads, business cards, bills, etc." (to quote the Summary of E.123).

      I haven't looked into the standards, but presumably ISDN handles + as well

      Well, E.164 says, in Annex B "Application of international ITU-T E.164-numbers for ISDN"

      B.4 Dialling procedures

      B.4.1 The subscriber dialling procedures for local, national and international calls shall be in accordance with clause 7. ...

      but that doesn't say anything about the international prefix, perhaps because the international prefix is country-dependent and the digit analysis required to recognize the international prefix is also country-dependent.

      What happens inside the network is not necessarily relevant to what people dial.

      and surely SS7 does

      People don't directly talk to SS7 - again, what happens inside the network is not necessarily relevant to what people dial.

    26. Re:Fascinating .. but .. by tibit · · Score: 1

      OK, it's an issue of terminology, then. I was incorrectly using '+' -- for you (and in the standards) it literally is equivalent to some numerical prefix. Not so from the user perspective, though -- not in most cases. All GSM phones, and many VOIP systems, display + to mean the international prefix, and completely hide the numerical prefix from you. You never deal with a numerical prefix. You press "+" followed by the country code. Also, phone numbers displayed on GSM phones that I've ever seen, are either local or use the + symbol to mean the prefix. Even my interminable NOKIA 1100 on a prepaid network displays all US phone numbers, whether local or not, as +1xxxyyyzzzz.

      So, what I meant by '+country' was that you don't need to know that in the U.S. it is 011, in EU it is 00 (I recall when in Sweden it was 009), in Japan it's 010, in Australia 0011, in Russia 810 (other exist), etc. It's a mess, I wish everyone simply used ITU recommended 00.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  10. Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Amazing, but... what is it?

    1. Re:Amazing! by RDW · · Score: 1

      Allow me to demonstrate, Mr Bond. When I push this button, 50,000 tons of compressive force will ensure that your body is as neatly pressed as your Savile Row suit.

  11. Re:The most depressing thing is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    What a load of nostalgic poop, mixed in with childish nonsense.

    "actors to pose naked to prevent killing animals that workers on such projects need to eat to keep their energy up."

    Seriously, dude?

    And we don't go to the Moon because we've already been there. We know what's there. Nothing. It's a harsh, hostile vacuum. We don't need large symbolic gestures anymore. Let the other countries play catch up to empty gestures if they want. They'll find the same things there the Americans did. Nothing. A vacuum. It's not like the Chinese, *if* they manage to get there, will suddenly find streets paved in gold with cupcakes floating around and puppies and rainbows.

    The Moon is a deserted wasteland.

    We probably also lack the capability to build really large Victorian steam locomotives. So? Are you saying people are stupid? If we need to, we will. Obviously someone will maintain this press.

  12. Re:The most depressing thing is by Lumpy · · Score: 0

    Blame the republicans and the democrats. They collectively destroyed the space program. They would rather spend MORE on defense than reduce the defense budget by 2% and give NASA the money the need to fully fund all their desired programs.

    That is how big of scumbags your congress is.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  13. I find it's by JustOK · · Score: 1, Funny

    I find it's really depressing

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
    1. Re:I find it's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thats ok!

    2. Re:I find it's by asylumx · · Score: 1

      Really? I didn't get that impression.

    3. Re:I find it's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'd like to forge some common ground, here, before this debate gets too heated, and somebody dies.

  14. Re:The most depressing thing is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The Moon is a deserted wasteland.

    You mean the grapes are sour. Even you should accept that, despite the moon being a wasteland, it useful to know how to reach it. Even if for some reason we wanted to I dont believe we currently have the capability to.

  15. Additive manufacturing by benjfowler · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I'm puzzled about the hate and outright hostility by people bagging this 'old' technology. It seems to be a product of silly, irrational thinking about what qualifies as 'high tech' and what isn't.

    Irrational and silly. Especially from conservatives who really ought to know better. Their distain for 'old' technology is self-defeating, especially since these silly and ignorant people claim to be for 'strong defence', which, btw, requires equipment built from high-strength, high-performance lightweight parts.

    If you knew even the FIRST thing about metallurgy, you would know why people are spending good money on building and maintaining this capability.

    Conservative, rightwing 'truthiness' makes you look stupid, and is self-defeating.

  16. Imagine the environmental impact! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's why it can't be built in the US today.

    But China will do it.

  17. Score 1 moe for the government. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is another score for the government and a blow to the idea that provate industry always does everything best.

    Some things are simply too expensivre and farsighted for private industry to invest. That's why a decent sized government is needed, to invest massive sums of money in things like this giant press. It has paid back massively.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
    1. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by damburger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, yes, this is something that government clearly does best. Big, chunky investments whose returns are nebulous and decades after the initial outlay.

      I don't mind that much that private enterprise then builds on government work afterwards, but what pisses me right off is when private companies then decide they owe nothing to the society that hosts them, avoid taxes, and campaign for reductions in the ones they do pay.

      This, of course, has the advantage for established private enterprise of kicking away the ladder of government R&D and infrastructure investment so no pesky competitors can get the same leg up.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    2. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by sunderland56 · · Score: 3, Funny

      This is another score for the government and a blow to the idea that provate industry always does everything best.

      There is an entire political party that disagrees with you.

    3. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0
      You know, back during the Bu$hitler days, I never thought I'd see a pro-government liberal...but here we are. We have always been at war with Oceania...I used to think that was a joke, but Orwell was dead serious.

      I see one thing hasn't changed, though: the conviction that every possible topic involves your pet politics, and the acceptability of hijacking any thread no matter how technical.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    4. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Only until after the election. Or don't you realize that yet? You young?

    5. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As things are, there is always one party disagreeing with any opinion you might have.

    6. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Total lie, but I think in your case total ignorance, but nice try. What kills me are all the government welfare scum that takes money away from projects like this because lazy people refuse to work.

    7. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by invid · · Score: 0

      You're just angry because this is something the government did right. BTW, the best way to maintain individual liberty is if corporate power and government power are about equal, allowing us little people to play them off each other. If either one gets too much of the upper hand we are screwed.

      --
      The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
    8. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by ModelX · · Score: 1

      Well in this particular case it was the Nazi government that was farsighted. The allies found giant presses when they occupied Germany at the end of WW2. So Germans had such presses running during WW2, and USA started heavy press program in 1950.

    9. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      In fairness, the US government was also farsighted. It saw them and decided that they had so much potential that they funded construction of their own ones.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    10. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by usuallylost · · Score: 1

      The Government didn't build this thing because they saw some farsighted need for a giant industrial press. They built it because they needed to make components for military equipment for the cold war. Also it doesn't take all that much Government to build something like this. In terms of Governmental procurement even a giant machine like this is fairly trivial. Also note that Government didn't do this themselves they had industry build it under contract. The fact that it paid back massively is mostly due to industry finding other uses for industrial equipment originally procured to make military hardware. If there is a unique Government role here it was that they needed a lot of weapons nobody else really has a need to procure and they had the money to order up specialized equipment. So we do all benefit from it, I just see no evidence that there was any plan to that effect when the Government built it.

    11. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      Project your feelings much? Read the comment again: for once, it is entirely about YOU, and yet you STILL manage to hijack the discussion onto your personal politics. Game, set, and match.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    12. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is an entire political party that disagrees with you.

      Corporate welfare. Ship that big dirty thing to China. Get it away from the environment.

    13. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The return was not nebulous.

      The fact is that "government is inefficient" mantra is largely a myth. There is very little objective data to prove it, and real examples of how government programs can vastly change the direction of an industry. In fact, it will be spouted most by people with interests in private industry that are looking to gain.

      Private industry is much more efficient? You understand that every corporation out there is run as a command economy of a type far stricter than was ever seen in the Soviet Union. They are not magically better. The simple fact is that in a democracy, the people with money and power move as much money and power as possible away from any accountable government process.

    14. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by tomhath · · Score: 1

      We'll never know what might have happened if the US government had ordered enough work to pay for a press like this and let private industry build it. Most likely the outcome would have been the same, but maybe better or maybe worse. It was in the government's interest to have the manufacturing capacity available for the defense industry to use either way.

    15. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      EVERY investment's returns are nebulous decades after the initial outlay. The whole point of investment. Spread the risk around so that if its a bust 10, 20, 30 years down the line, no one investor ends up in bankruptcy.

      No one goes into an investment with the guarantee that they will have positive returns decades after the initial outlay.

    16. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by khallow · · Score: 1

      The fact is that "government is inefficient" mantra is largely a myth. There is very little objective data to prove it

      Take rocket development. SpaceX developed the Falcon 9 for roughly $300 million. A NASA study, which incidentally verified SpaceX's cost numbers in the process, claimed that if NASA had contracted that out, the contract would have costed between 4 and 10 times as much, depending on whether NASA used their normal costing or a new, cheaper approach. And that's before contract cost overruns. It's not going to get more objective than that.

      In addition, look at the rocket system that's getting most of the federal funds at this time, the "Space Launch System" or SLS. When it is finally designed and built, it'll be able to lift 130 tons to Earth orbit, perhaps by 2021 (I believe a smaller prototype is scheduled to launch in 2017). Only problems with this? 1) It hasn't been designed yet, 2) Congress insists on using Space Shuttle parts, particularly, the ATK-built Solid Rocket Booster, 3) there are no missions for it at this time, and 4) It'll rob funding from anything that could use it, just as the Space Shuttle did during its lifetime.

      The huge difference between private industry and government is simply that for the former, there is incentive to run things efficiently, namely, the profit motive. What this boils down to is that private industry, for the most part, has intent to provide good and efficient service, while government with its lack of incentive does not. One tries, the other does not. For example, NASA could provide an effective program for a small fraction of the current cost, but there's neither incentive or intent to do so.

    17. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by damburger · · Score: 1

      SpaceX was only able to do this because the US had spent all the money doing the groundwork for them, and even then NASA held their hands quite a bit. Elon Musk himself admits this.

      Even if NASA is inefficient, that doesn't prove the thesis at all. Russian (or more pertinently, Soviet) rockets are cheap and reliable.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    18. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by khallow · · Score: 1

      SpaceX was only able to do this because the US had spent all the money doing the groundwork for them, and even then NASA held their hands quite a bit. Elon Musk himself admits this.

      The NASA study took that into account. A NASA attempt would use previous knowledge (and NASA "hand-holding") as well and it would cost ten times as much (unless they happen to switch to the new costing method, in which case it goes down a mere factor of four). And then there would be cost overruns.

      Frankly, I think you've never worked in an efficient private business. They really are vastly better.

    19. Re:Score 1 moe for the government. by khallow · · Score: 1

      Even if NASA is inefficient, that doesn't prove the thesis at all. Russian (or more pertinently, Soviet) rockets are cheap and reliable.

      Last I checked, the Russian program a) wasn't NASA (meaning that just because one agency is relatively efficient, doesn't mean that we can gloss over the massive parts that aren't), and b) was effectively for-profit. It's also worth noting that the Russian program (or for that matter anyone else) can't match the cost numbers that SpaceX has. For example, development of their next generation rocket, Angara costs a bit more (and is well behind schedule).

      The Chinese have already admitted that they can't match the Falcon 9's cost figures.

  18. Re:The most depressing thing is by murdocj · · Score: 1

    We know how to reach the moon. If for some reason it was necessary to land men on the moon, we could implement a program that would get us back there. Instead, we have rovers on Mars with another huge rover on the way there, a Saturn orbiter, a probe to Pluto, a Mercury orbiter, an asteroid orbiter, ....

    I sure as hell wouldn't trade all of that for a couple of guys walking around on the moon again.

  19. FTFA: More military spending by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "The Fifty will soon be supplying bulkheads for the Joint Strike Fighter"

    I'm not a big fan of dumping more money into the military when our science budgets are so thin.

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
    1. Re:FTFA: More military spending by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not a big fan of dumping more money into the military when our science budgets are so thin.

      Yeah, and scientists are always so good at defending us from, and fighting off well-armed enemies.

    2. Re:FTFA: More military spending by bjdevil66 · · Score: 1

      Just because funding for the development of advanced weaponry like the Joint Strike Fighter or other big military projects (like ARPANET) ends up somewhere other than more traditional destinations for "science budgets" like universities doesn't mean it's not a big science budget (only with bullets included in the box).

    3. Re:FTFA: More military spending by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Errrr. Have you been exposed to crack as a fetus, or perhaps born with the cord tied around your neck?

    4. Re:FTFA: More military spending by strong_epoxy · · Score: 1

      I'm not a big fan of dumping more money into our science budgets when young women can't get free contraception.

    5. Re:FTFA: More military spending by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, so you're so ignorant of science that you actually think there is no science involved with building a modern high performance airplane? Wow, just wow.

    6. Re:FTFA: More military spending by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fully support buying 3 F-35's for each major university. Community colleges will have to time-share an old Boeing_X-32 prototype.

    7. Re:FTFA: More military spending by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sarcasm detector... you hazn't got one.

    8. Re:FTFA: More military spending by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Defense (or offense) is the more traditional destination for 'science budgets', particularly practical as opposed to pure science.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    9. Re:FTFA: More military spending by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      I'm not a big fan of dumping more money into our science budgets when young women can't get free contraception.

      Just say no or buy a rubber. There problem solved. Pass the ammo. (And here come the dipshits with the corner cases that these two solutions don't solve)

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  20. Re:The most depressing thing is by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

    "The Moon is a deserted wasteland."

    Indeed.

    Fix it. Throw enough billions at the project, and get a semi-sustainable base up there. It'll be handy for astronomy, national pride and construction of spacecraft for going further.

  21. Re:The most depressing thing is by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    It's nice to blame it on defense, but they'd also rather spend MORE on social programs than reduce the social program budgets by 0.1% and give NASA the money they need to fully fund all their desired programs.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  22. Sheffield Forgemasters by damburger · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The UK company is mentioned as being build up with cheap government loans, which is a half truth.

    Yes, they are getting cheap loans, but only begrudgingly and only after the government had canceled a much larger loan, aimed at letting them produce "ultra large" forgings that few other places in the world can manage, mostly for the nuclear industry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_Forgemasters#2010_expansion

    But of course, we have to spend billions turning London into a bland commercial fortress for the Olympics. This is not that surprising; money that is meant to be spend on a national level has a nasty habit of being spent within a few miles of London.

    But hey, I'm sure the Coalition know what they are doing. I'm sure putting missile launchers of peoples roofs and forbidding British beer brewers from selling stuff in many of the capitals pubs is a far more sensible economic investment than developing world class forging capabilities.

    --
    If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    1. Re:Sheffield Forgemasters by c0lo · · Score: 2

      and forbidding British beer brewers from selling stuff in many of the capitals pubs...

      Huh?!! Really?
      (please provide a link; if credible, one less ticket to London's Olympiad, thanks)

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    2. Re:Sheffield Forgemasters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume he's talking about this. Which says that branded British beer cannot be sold at the venues because of Heineken's sponsorship of the Corporolympics. Bizarrely, it can be sold unbranded; a tap marked "Bitter" would be acceptable.

    3. Re:Sheffield Forgemasters by damburger · · Score: 1

      That is the one. Those missile launchers they are deploying in London isn't for al-qaeda, its to stop a militant fringe of *CAMRA attacking the olympics :)

      *the CAMpaign for Real Ale. Anyone visiting the UK who wants to sample proper British beer should look them up.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    4. Re:Sheffield Forgemasters by c0lo · · Score: 1

      *the CAMpaign for Real Ale. Anyone visiting the UK who wants to sample proper British beer should look them up.

      That was (and remains) on real attraction to me for visiting UK.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  23. US Steel "Shield" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The whole American steel industry is shielded by the US gov't and tax barriers to protect it from competition. They're too old and not financially viable without investments the global and local competition have already made.

    On November 11, 2003, the WTO came out against the steel tariffs, saying that they had not been imposed during a period of import surge — steel imports had actually dropped a bit during 2001 and 2002 — and that the tariffs therefore were a violation of America's WTO tariff-rate commitments.

    The ruling authorized more than $2 billion in sanctions, the largest penalty ever imposed by the WTO against a member state, if the US did not quickly remove the tariffs. After receiving the verdict, Bush declared that he would preserve the tariffs.

    In retaliation, the European Union threatened to counter with tariffs of its own on products ranging from Florida oranges to cars produced in Michigan, with each tariff calculated to likewise hurt the President in a key marginal state. Faced with the threat, the U.S. backed down and withdrew the tariffs on December 4.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_United_States_steel_tariff

    To quote the CATO institute:

    Erecting barriers to imports will only postpone needed consolidation of the U.S. steel industry. The industry has not been losing jobs because of unfair imports, but because of relentless technological changes brought by "mini-mills" that produce a ton of steel at a fraction of the man hours required by the larger integrated mills. During the last period when comprehensive quotas were in place, 1984 to 1992, the steel industry continued to lose nearly 10,000 jobs per year. Quotas will only slow the inevitable.

    http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/bush-turns-protectionist-steel-companies

    1. Re:US Steel "Shield" by garyebickford · · Score: 5, Informative

      A bit of history provides some useful background. During WWII, the area near Pittsburgh PA produced more steel than the rest of the world combined. (But those mills were mostly built with 19th century technology. They were at the 'prime of life' and would have been obsolete soon even without the war.) Steel mills and other heavy industry throughout the rest of the world also were largely destroyed by bombing from one side or the other - mostly Allied bombing of German and Japanese steel mills. So after the war US industry, and particularly US steel, were the only ones still able to produce products. We then lent money to all parties (the Marshall Plan), with the proviso that they had to spend the money on US goods. The boom of the 1950s was the result of this and some other policies (the GI bill was another). This amounted to a postwar bubble.

      One of the things that those other countries did was build new steel plants, using the latest technology. By the end of the 1950s these new plants were coming online, able to make steel for much lower prices. At that point the US steel industry, still based on late-19th century mill technology, became completely obsolete. The US steel companies, still competing with each other as well as the rest of the world, could not justify spending $zillions to essentially compete against themselves, while it was well worth while for other countries to develop their own industries, as they were starting from a zero base. This is a classic problem that results in constant turnover in many/most/all industries - it rarely seems like a good idea to build your own competition looking at the short term - all it does is spend money to reduce profits- but it's often a good idea to come in from outside and build the competition to the entrenched, inefficient market leader..

        Since the 1970s there have been quite a few new, smaller mills built here using the latest (IIRC NUCOR was one of the first examples) but they still have to work hard to compete with the lower costs elsewhere - lower wages, lower land prices, etc. So it's an uphill battle, and that kind of dominance after WWII was a one-time deal.

      One of the side-effects of the loss of those two-mile-long mills in the Pittsburgh area is that the side has become clean. When I lived there (early 1990s) the Carnegie Library and Museum was being scrubbed. The building had been black for 80 years or so. After scrubbing it turned out to be blond! I saw pictures from the 1950s where it was too dark and smoky to see across the street in downtown Pittsburgh. And those big mill areas along the rivers are now available to be turned into parks, housing, light industry, clean industry, whatever. But of course, there aren't many jobs. The population of Pittsburgh now is about 1/3 what it was in 1965. Houses are (or at least were) cheap.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    2. Re:US Steel "Shield" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think you may be conflating rolling mills with the actual production of steel from raw materials. Pittsburgh had both in the time frame you mentioned.

      NUCOR and other small producers you mention do not make steel... They melt scrap and re-alloy. From a recycling standpoint, this is good. But where would we be in WWIII prevented the flow of steel manufactured in China and Korea to the US? We can only melt scrap for so long...

      And Yes, I used to work for ALCOA, and have seen the Big Press making titanium wishbones for jet fighters... It really is impressive. But at the time, it was the *second* biggest press in the world - the largest was (is?) in Russia.

    3. Re:US Steel "Shield" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While your comments about the steel industry in and around Pittsburgh are fairly on target, your portrayal of the current state of the area is off base.

      Yes, the city is much cleaner now and the city proper has also lost 50% of it's population. However, the time span that you cite fails to account for urban flight and the general development of surrounding areas. The metro area is still 22nd in the country in terms of size with a population of ~2.5Million and ranks above average in job availability per capita. Those old mills and areas that you cite have already been turned into everything that you mention, not just on paper. Also, the real estate market is the only one for a major metropolitan market that has not gone down in the last decade (see : http://www.zillow.com/local-info/), so houses were cheap and still are while being a solid investment.

      I moved out of Pittsburgh in 1994 and visit infrequently (once every 5-8 years). I now live in New England and the ignorance (at least around here) of the current state of affairs in Pittsburgh irritates me. In many ways Pittsburgh has a stronger economy and provides a higher standard of living than the coastal cities. I would have much rather spent less on my house and never seen it decline than gone through the 20-30% reductions up here. Want a telling statistic? Check out home price as a multiple of average household income:
      http://www.deptofnumbers.com/affordability/pennsylvania/pittsburgh/
      Vs.
      http://www.deptofnumbers.com/affordability/massachusetts/boston/

      All that being said, I like the ocean.

  24. Airbus? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it really true that Airbus uses products from this mill on a regular basis? I would think that would be highly unlikely with so many European partners involved.

    1. Re:Airbus? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 5, Informative

      Then you know nothing about aviation manufacturers - a modern Airbus aircraft can be over 50% American by weight if chosen with GE or P&W engines, and 40% with RR engines. Airbus has major US suppliers.

    2. Re:Airbus? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it really true that Airbus uses products from this mill on a regular basis? I would think that would be highly unlikely with so many European partners involved.

      The whole Good-ol'-American-Boeing vs. Evil Socialist European Airbus Consortium is not so clear-cut. Airbus buys quite a lot from US aerospace companies, just as Boeing contracts out quite a bit to Japanese and European companies. When you're building something as complex as a modern jetliner, there's just no way to keep it in-house...or even in-continent.

    3. Re:Airbus? by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      While I have no issue with companies getting the best products and prices from wherever the need to get them.
      It makes me sad that now there are some things that the US can no longer make.
      The US (My country by the way) now could never pull its head out of its ass to do anything great.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    4. Re:Airbus? by SteveFoerster · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Not clear cut at all when so many of the loans made by the federally owned Export-Import Bank are made to the company that its nickname is the "Bank of Boeing".

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    5. Re:Airbus? by Duhavid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "It makes me sad that now there are some things that the US can no longer make."

      We can make anything we used to make, and many never before made.
      It's just that we are led by weenies ( politically and economically ).
      And that is what there is to be sad about.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    6. Re:Airbus? by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      Those things that we could make and accomplish before. Those things that other countries at the time found too difficult or impossible to do or make were things that we did in the US out of sheer will and leadership.
      The US no longer has the Will.
      Apollo 1 caught fire on the landing pad and killed 3 astronauts,
      A little over 2 years later we had 2 guys standing on the moon.
      People die now and entire programs get shut down for years. We no longer have the will to reach.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    7. Re:Airbus? by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      True. We need to get it back.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    8. Re:Airbus? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      a modern Airbus aircraft can be over 50% American by weight if ...

      if....10% of the passengers are Americans?

    9. Re:Airbus? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Try to make another Saturn V rocket...

  25. Re:8,000 ton giant.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That was not the best of Yo Momma jokes, but a troll mod? bitch please!

  26. Re:The most depressing thing is by N!k0N · · Score: 1

    And we don't go to the Moon because we've already been there.

    And what if the monarchs of the old world felt the same way about the new world?

    We probably also lack the capability to build really large Victorian steam locomotives. So? Are you saying people are stupid? If we need to, we will. Obviously someone will maintain this press.

    Actually ... the hard part will be getting the steel alloys right more than the forging of them... granted there are very few places in the states that can still forge parts as large as would be needed.

  27. Of COURSE we lack the ability to make a new one by Troyusrex · · Score: 5, Funny

    The 400 yard long wrench needed to tighten the 10 foot wide bolts was lost when someone (I think we all know who...) used it and never put it back.

  28. Re: carbon fiber engine block by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://blog.caranddriver.com/is-this-the-engine-of-the-future-in-depth-with-matti-holtzberg-and-his-composite-engine-block/

    This article goes into a little more depth. The block is actually a combination of aluminum and carbon. The parts that see the highest stress and highest temperature still have to be metal.

    Also, this engine was announced a year ago, and I haven't been able to find any links to people actually driving one.

  29. Take that Ayn Rand lovers! by invid · · Score: 1

    Once again we have government spending being instrumental to helping the capitalist free market. Add this to the internet and the highway system as government funded projects that are crucial to technological advancement.

    --
    The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
    1. Re:Take that Ayn Rand lovers! by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

      Rands philosophy does not prohibit government service, spending or initiatives. Where she differed from conventional thinking is in how the government should be financed. She believed that contributions to the government should be voluntary.

    2. Re:Take that Ayn Rand lovers! by Svartalf · · Score: 0

      This was more due to businesses not being willing to spend the money to make such massive machines. If you had the government stepping in except at selective times, you end up with something like Russia or China. China's all but discarded the notion. Russia went bankrupt trying to do it. It's all in where you draw the line, sir. In this case it worked. In today's case...it's NOT working. Billions spent and you see nothing but failures.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    3. Re:Take that Ayn Rand lovers! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally.

    4. Re:Take that Ayn Rand lovers! by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      Right, because the rich are all about giving back to the society that enabled their success.
      "I pay all the taxes that are legally required and not a dollar more. I don't think you want someone as the candidate for president who pays more taxes than he owes." -the presumptive Republican nominee.

    5. Re:Take that Ayn Rand lovers! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rands philosophy does not prohibit government service, spending or initiatives. Where she differed from conventional thinking is in how the government should be financed. She believed that contributions to the government should be voluntary.

      Socialist and Communists also believe contributions to the government should be voluntary -- via coercion.

      Why do so many posters here claim "all capitalists are greedy"? History shows us that not all capitalists are greedy. It also shows us most, if not all, communist leaders have been greedy, heartless psychopaths.

      Yes, I have lived under communism and capitalism.

    6. Re:Take that Ayn Rand lovers! by bjdevil66 · · Score: 1

      You're misapplying Ayn Rand's lesson.

      The problem isn't when the government does big projects. The problem is when:

      1) ..the government does big projects that the free market is capable of doing on its own and more efficiently.

      2) ..the government restricts the free market to keep it from working as efficiently as possible.

    7. Re:Take that Ayn Rand lovers! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They already do, by providing jobs and investing their money in business ventures. Or did you think that those jobs just magically appeared with no capital funding to back them?

      do you pay more taxes than you're obligated to? If so, why? If not, why not?

    8. Re:Take that Ayn Rand lovers! by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      You're misapplying Ayn Rand's lesson.

      She started it.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  30. Hugh Pickens by jones_supa · · Score: 2

    Have you noticed how this Hugh Pickens guy never ceases to post these long, well-written articles. :) Maybe some newspaper hires him, too.

  31. America doesn't lack the ability... by rlp122 · · Score: 1

    America doesn't lack the ability, we lack the interest. Out apathy is strong, but I really just don't care.

  32. Re:The most depressing thing is by Lumpy · · Score: 0

    I would agree with you if Social programs was 70% of our spending, but in reality it's not even 20%. Defense is the bulk of our spending and is not needed to be that large.

    Honestly, I guarantee we can kill all the terrorists hiding in the bushes that are waiting to destroy our world with only 3/4 of what we spend on defense.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  33. Nodular cast iron is a composite by Kupfernigk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In fact, the nodular cast iron of which many engine parts are made, is itself a composite. The iron (a metal) contains nodules of graphite (carbon) which are roughly spherical and give it a combination of strength and ductility. Although it isn't as strong as a steel forging, nodular cast iron is very versatile and can be cast easily. When I was involved in a British Government kickstarter project over 20 years ago, one of the key objectives for future manufacturing that was identified was a way of producing cast parts in strong materials economically to near finished size, i.e. to eliminate the need for forging.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:Nodular cast iron is a composite by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      In fact, the nodular cast iron of which many engine parts are made, is itself a composite. The iron (a metal) contains nodules of graphite (carbon) which are roughly spherical and give it a combination of strength and ductility.

      Correct but misleading. steel Iron is what melts out of the ore. From the supplied link:

      Steel is an alloy made by combining iron and another element, usually carbon. When carbon is used, its content in the steel is between 0.2% and 2.1% by weight, depending on the grade. Other alloying elements sometimes used are manganese, chromium, vanadium and tungsten.[1] Carbon and other elements act as a hardening agent, preventing dislocations in the iron atom crystal lattice from sliding past one another. Varying the amount of alloying elements and the form of their presence in the steel (solute elements, precipitated phase) controls qualities such as the hardness, ductility, and tensile strength of the resulting steel. Steel with increased carbon content can be made harder and stronger than iron, but such steel is also less ductile than iron.

      Alloys with a higher than 2.1% carbon content are known as cast iron because of their lower melting point and good castability.[1] Steel is also distinguishable from wrought iron, which can contain a small amount of carbon, but it is included in the form of slag inclusions. Two distinguishing factors are steel's increased rust resistance and better weldability.

      I had a couple of classes on this in college. Cast iron is indeed a composite, but iron itself is not.

    2. Re:Nodular cast iron is a composite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Adding small amounts of carbon to iron does not make a composite. It makes an alloy. The same way that brass is an alloy of metals and not a composite. Above ~2% carbon is beyond the solubility limit (phase diagram here) and you will get a composite with carbon precipitates in the material.

      Carbon fiber itself is not a composite. It becomes a composite when the carbon fibers are embedded into a matrix material (usually some sort of epoxy). An alloy is homogenous with any piece of it having the same intrinsic properties, a composite has distinct material types with varying material properties. The carbon fiber has very high tensile strength, but they tend to bend in compression. The matrix material gives compressive rigidity and helps transfer tensile stress among the fibers.

  34. Minor Lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your perspecitve directly ignores the tremendous cost of environmental compliance on US steel production. Given that we want to llive in our planet, we triple the cost of coal and tacenite production by requiring environmental compliance, and similarly, the emissions controlls for steel mills mean that only mini-mills can possibly be compliant. These things were not considered in the WTO ruling. Besides blatantly dumping sub-costs steel on the market, China is still dumping billions of pounds of toxins into the environment.

  35. Re: carbon fiber engine block by dpilot · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't it make more sense to put steel sleeves into this, and as you say, other metal parts into high-stress areas? Philosophical purity has little (but not no) place in the real world.

    --
    The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  36. Re:The most depressing thing is by gtall · · Score: 1

    You do realize that defense is about 16-18% of the budget. The rest is all those other things governments do. Cutting defense to $0 will still leave the U.S. with a $600-700 Billion budget gap. And the Me Generation is about to send the rest of the budget into outer space now that they are getting old enough to retire and somehow believe the rest of the country owes them some Golden Years after having to put up with their whining and kvetching for the last 50.

    And even if they did reduce the defense budget by 2% (they are talking of reducing it by roughly 12%), what makes you think they will spend it on the space program? The space program isn't going to get any of those critters re-elected whereas promising a chicken in every toilet, or whatever they're promising these days, will.

  37. "At the atomic level" is incorrect by Kupfernigk · · Score: 4, Informative

    I think you mean "at the molecular or crystallographic level". Certainly where steels are concerned, the difference between forging and casting has a lot to do with grain structure as well as the pearlite/ferrite mix, and it is these that determine ductility, modulus, ultimate yield and so on. Chemistry has very little to do with it, a rudimentary knowledge nothing at all; irons of the same chemical composition can have very different properties indeed based entirely on the production processes applied to them. This is why welding by the uninstructed can be so dangerous: random heat treatment of steels (and aluminum alloys too) can have drastic effects on their behaviour.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:"At the atomic level" is incorrect by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      However, the grain structure is heavily influenced by the chemical composition of the steel. Think of microalloyed steels, where as little as 0,05% of grain refinement or precipitation hardening agents like e.g. Nb or Va have a huge effect on the steel's properties.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    2. Re:"At the atomic level" is incorrect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've often wondered why electro-deposition isn't used more readily for complex, special parts. Is it also a case of grain structure?

  38. Re:The most depressing thing is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, defense spending is good and social spending is bad? Gotcha. Keep fucking that chicken.

    Defense spending is stupid and wasteful. Keep saying this until you understand it.

  39. 8,000 or 50,000? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Another undecipherable /. summary. What's the 8,000-ton thingy mentioned in the title? Nowhere to be seen in the summary. On the other hand the summary talks about this 50,000-ton thingy absent in the title...

    1. Re:8,000 or 50,000? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The forge itself weighs 8,000 tons, or 16,000,000 pounds and is itself the giant that made the jet age possible, because it is capable of producing ultra-strong forged parts by generating 50,000 tons of compressive force on the metal blanks.

    2. Re:8,000 or 50,000? by leftover · · Score: 1

      Two different quantities. The machine weighs 16 million pounds -- aka 8000 tons -- and can apply 50,000 tons force to the workpiece.

      --
      Bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated.
    3. Re:8,000 or 50,000? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a 50,000 ton press that weighs 8,000 tons.

      It would probably be less confusing in SI as a 440 meganewton press with a mass of 7 gigagrams.

    4. Re:8,000 or 50,000? by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      When you put it that way, it's less impressive. I used to have (ok, have access to) a 300 ton press that weighed less than 5 tons. This thing is only capable of putting out ~6.5x it's own weight? Hrmph.

      On another note, we don't remotely lack the ability to make another one. I expect they're just rather expensive, and we don't need two. If this one ever goes out of service and we really need one, we WILL make another one.

  40. Re:The most depressing thing is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're utterly insane if you think that would only cost billions. And who would go there? A handful of people? To do what that couldn't be done here? It's all just magical thinking and symbolism and nostalgia for a Space Age that never happened.

  41. War by glorybe · · Score: 1

    Our ability to wage war depends a lot upon heavy industry. I wonder if we went into a situation like WWII if we could survive simply because our heavy industry has declined so greatly. The ability to move supplies by rail or the ability to crank out ships, cheaply and rapidly could make all the difference. We have fabulous weapons but are getting pretty sad in the ability for quick and massive deployments. This seems dangerous to me. There was a point at which we could not cast tank turrets and relied upon England to cast turrets for us in history. I wonder how many things we can not do today.

    1. Re:War by Sentrion · · Score: 1

      In such a world war type scenario, just make sure you're on the same team as China. A world war in our time might not necessarily be decided by nuclear weapons any more than WWII was decided by use of gas. The deterrent force held by both sides could deter both sides from ever using them against each other, leaving them with conventional means to destroy each other.

  42. It all depends by Kupfernigk · · Score: 4, Informative
    drinkypoos comment above is nonsense. There are many, many different sintered powder metal composites and their characteristics depend on the ingredients and their treatment, ranging from things like the common cobalt infused tungsten carbide used in cutting tools to low temperature sintered bearings which were available during WW2.

    The author of this paper is obviously biased MPIF 2005 paper but it shows how active research is in this field, with the forging companies and powder metal companies constantly overtaking one another. The paper referenced actually demonstrates the superior fatigue strength of the powder technology used.

    Forging involves the distortion of the metal grains, and as such there are always treatment issues with locked-in strain and the effects of any inclusions in the metal. Powder metallurgy has different problems. Neither is a perfect process. But the people who up-moderated drinkypoos comment certainly weren't metallurgists.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:It all depends by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The author of this paper is obviously biased MPIF 2005 paper but it shows how active research is in this field,

      Which is totally orthogonal to the issue of whether powder metal is more or less likely to fail as well as the issue of what its failure mode looks like. It is a fact that you cannot get the same kind of interlocking grain structure with PF or any other powder metal process that you can with a traditional forged part. You can use all the same alloys in a forged part that you can with a PF part, which is why the forged part will always be superior. It's like the argument over powder coating. Yes, it is probably the best overall way to put a fat coat of plastic on some irregularly shaped item, taking into account not only material use but also solvent use, or specifically the lack thereof. But you can put a thinner coat of all the same materials onto something with traditional solvent-based painting processes, so painting still produces a better paint job for many purposes — which is why we're still painting cars rather than powdercoating them. And using a billet piece and forging it produces a superior grain structure, which is why in racing we are still using forged metal connecting rods and pistons. They cost more, but they are the best, and it is worth it.

      It doesn't matter if the people who up-modded my comment were metallurgists or not, because they probably can understand that grinding something up into a powder and sticking it back together is never going to produce the same results as not grinding it into a powder in the first place, and again, since you can use all the same alloys with a forging process (some of them increasing the cost substantially) you're clearly going to have an inferior part with PF. You just. can't. get. the. same. interlocking. grain. structure. Hope saying it slower helped.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:It all depends by Hillgiant · · Score: 1

      Eh. Who cares? If the part cracks, it was over loaded. Period. Whether the part yielded plastically or elastically is immaterial.

      Forging is cool. It allows the highest unit strain of any material forming process. It is also very expensive and is only possible with a limited set of geometries.

      PM methods are cool. Especially with metal injection molding. You can achieve metallurgies that are impossible any other way due to differing melt / phase precipitation temperatures. It is also expensive and has its own (different) set of geometric limitations.

      What I am getting at is there is no superior forming technology and understanding the strengths, weaknesses, and (most importantly) limitations is part of what engineering is all about.

      Arguing that one method is "better" than another unnecessarily limits the design.

      --
      -
    3. Re:It all depends by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Sure, I agree with that, overall. I'm not taking exception to the idea of using additive processes. I'm against making bullshit claims. Additive manufacturing only produces a stronger part when you produce something that otherwise couldn't be constructed. When applied to existing designs meant to be used with forged metal the results can be disastrous. It's been seen in automobiles and it's been seen in firearms. If you look at the citation above they tell you that they did some kind of bullshit axial loading of the connecting rods and then acted like they proved something.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  43. Sounds Like a Strategic Target by Baldrson · · Score: 1

    TFA says:

    'Today, America lacks the ability to make anything like the Heavy Press Program machines,' concludes Heffernan adding that 'The Fifty' will be supplying bulkheads through 2034 for the Joint Strike Fighter.

    What sort of defenses surround this Atlantean artifact?

    1. Re:Sounds Like a Strategic Target by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess somebody never watched that Ken Burns documentary, "Stargate: Atlantis." The defenses are, in order:
      The military surrounding Norad;
      The Cheyenne mountain complex;
      The iris preventing unscheduled offworld activation;
      the uncrossable vacuum of intergalactic space;
      and the lovable, scrappy fellowship of Col. John Sheppard, Dr. Rodney McKay, Elizabeth Weir, Ronon Dex, and Teyla Emmagan.

      If that's not defense in depth, I don't know what is. But for my money, that last line is the most effective.

  44. Re:The most depressing thing is by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

    And what if the monarchs of the old world felt the same way about the new world?

    To be fair, after Columbus' initial voyage to the new world, it wasn't any sense of exploration that was driving those expeditions, it was the promise of immense reward due to the reports of those "streets lined with gold". Even Columbus' first voyage wasn't bankrolled just for the sake of exploration, but to find that shorter route to the East.

    I bet if Columbus had discovered the New World and found a lunar landscape, it would have been hundreds of years before anyone bothered to return.

    Don't misunderstand and think I am critical of pure research, nor am I one of those people that think all scientific research should be driven solely by profitability, but the age of exploration was driven by profit motive just as much as anything else over history. Many of us have grown beyond that short-sighted attitude, but unfortunately we're back in a "if it's not profitable, it's not worth spending money on at all" cycle as far as the people running our government go. The funny thing is, if we'd have had that attitude during WWII and the Cold War, half of the compounds we use today would have likely never been discovered, having come out of labs that were generously funded by taxpayer dollars. Would the internet even exist today if it had been judged solely on it's "profitability" back when it was ARPANET?

  45. Lafayette Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I always heard stories of Huey's flying into Alcoa and picking up parts... guess they weren't kidding.

  46. Re:The most depressing thing is by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

    Having been around a number of steam engines and people who own them I doubt the problem would be with materials. There are people who, as their hobby, restore old steam engines either the locomotive ones or tractors. The technology is basically the same and the large steam tractors are basically just steam locomotive with different running gear. It doesn't appear that Wikipedia or Wikimedia has very good pictures of them so I think I may need to get some pictures next year at the threshing shows. For things like boilers they were typically made from cast iron, or a very mild steel. The forged parts were typically in things like the running gear, like pistons, shafts, axles, etc. Even today there are people who create small 1/10 or so scale fully functional models from off the shelf materials. They will run run them at similar pressures (150-200 psi) as the full size brethren and will actually forge their own parts as these people seem to have the right background knowledge. As far a forging large parts we still do that but as the need for large forged parts has declined (really how many 400 ton trucks or other comparable sized equipment is needed each year) so has capacity to forge the parts.

    --
    Time to offend someone
  47. Re:The most depressing thing is by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

    I don't know where either of you are getting your numbers but these may help:
    2010 US federal budget breakdown chart
    US Military budget (uses 2010 number)
    US Federal Budget (uses 2011 number)
    Maybe this impressive chart from the New York Times on the 2011 budget
    Then there is the XKCD Money poster that also has a federal budget breakdown Simple fact is that we spend more money on social programs than we do on military (hell I'll even toss in the veterans affairs stuff too if that makes you feel better). Yes we could probably cut massive amounts out of the budget but don't pretend that the majority of our federal spending is on the military granted it is a large portion but still not any where near the majority.

    --
    Time to offend someone
  48. giant machines, all the way up by Thud457 · · Score: 4, Funny

    If you think that's big, you should see the machine they built it on.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:giant machines, all the way up by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      If you think that's big, you should see the machine they built it on.

      Not only is it turtles all the way down, it's 'Fiftys' all the way up?

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  49. and he's not even green... by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    HOLY CRAP that dude is STRONG !


    bonus chart

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:and he's not even green... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A bare alloy 4 cylinder block is not all that heavy.

      Once you put the steel crank and conrods, the head, the timing gears and cam train, the pistons, flywheel, water pump, oil pump, etc. *That* is when it gets heavy.

    2. Re:and he's not even green... by rhook · · Score: 1

      And that block he is holding is not aluminum, it weights over 18lbs less than an aluminum block.

  50. Re:The most depressing thing is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    What if the new world were an empty, deadly radiation-blasted vacuum hostile to all life? And the new world was reachable by 15th century technology. Many more people were able to do it than went to the Moon. What's your point?

    That the ocean, that supplies water, fish, air, light and gravity for free, is somehow comparable to a deadly vacuum that requires high technology just for people to breathe?

  51. Re:The most depressing thing is by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

    I would agree with you if Social programs was 70% of our spending, but in reality it's not even 20%. Defense is the bulk of our spending and is not needed to be that large.

    US Federal Budfget, 2010...

    Total spending: ~$3.55 trillion.

    Total Social Security spending: $695 billion (19.6%)

    Total Medicare spending: $453 billion (12.8%)

    So, we're over 20% so far.

    Total Medicaid spending: $290 billion (8.2%)

    Unemployment/Welfare/"other mandatory spending: $571 billion. (16.1%) - note that not all this will be "social programs", but most of it will.

    So, total Social programs are ~49.5% of our spending. AT LEAST.

    Note that those numbers are only from the "mandatory spending" part of the ledger. It is likely that there are some "social programs" hidden in the "discretionary spending" part of the budget ($1.378 trillion total).

    Oh, and finally, it should be noted that "military spending" is $716.2 billion, if you include the VA as part of the military budget. Which is...20.2% of the Federal budget.

    So, you're wrong about the military being "the bulk of our spending, and you're also wrong about "social programs are not even 20% of our Federal spending"....

    Oh, and note that if we had zeroed the DoD and VA in 2010, the deficit for that year would have been $454 billion, which would still have left it in the top ten deficits ever.

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  52. Aesop thinks you're a moron by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    the grapes are sour.

    Learn to fable, idiot.
    The fox claimed the grapes were probably sour because he couldn't reach them.

    In contrast, we went there, ate the grapes, then decided it wasn't worth the effort to procure more of the same grapes.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:Aesop thinks you're a moron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please describe the "grapes" that were on the Moon.

    2. Re:Aesop thinks you're a moron by DocHoncho · · Score: 1

      Duh, they're made out of cheese like the rest of it. Sheesh!

      --
      Celebrity worship is a poor substitute for Deity worship and costs more to boot.
  53. Which kind of makes my point by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1

    I was commenting on the GPs misleading use of terms. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of chemistry (see his post) would not be able to understand why tiny amounts of additives can have such large effects. Surface effects and the use of different atomic species as dislocation stoppers are neither basic chemistry nor much of a help to understanding why all of forging, casting and powder/composite metallurgy behave as they do.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:Which kind of makes my point by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. I have more than a rudimentary knowledge of chemistry (PhD in physical biochemistry) - and I have no clue how all that solid state stuff actually works.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    2. Re:Which kind of makes my point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't feel bad. Outside of limited systems, I don't think anyone does. Not really.

      andy

  54. Re:The most depressing thing is by Captain.Abrecan · · Score: 0

    Defense spending is what created the heavy press program... which is what the article is about...

  55. Re:The most depressing thing is by Captain.Abrecan · · Score: 0

    Indeed. The retirement generation and baby boomers are friggin retarded.

  56. Juggling numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm wondering how many of slashdotters can tell what the "8,000 ton" figure refers to?

  57. Obligatory joke in 3...2...1... by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    One thing's for sure: We're all going to be a lot thinner.

  58. Fragile link to the future. by Dzimas · · Score: 1

    Dear potential enemies: If you want to cripple the US aircraft manufacturing industry at the outset of WWIII, take out this forging press first. Sigh.

  59. And while we by sunking2 · · Score: 2

    struggle to keep our 50+ year old machines running China has at least two 65k+ ton forging presses.

    1. Re:And while we by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      According to this: http://aciers.free.fr/index.php/2012/02/02/china-has-started-the-building-of-an-80000-ton-press-forge-us/ China's largest press is 40K. Although it does sound like America should investigate building an 81K press.

  60. Lost capabilities. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Chinese have started building an 80,000 ton forge press

    And now the USA has lost the capability to do what it once could do.

    From TFA: 'Today, America lacks the ability to make anything like the Heavy Press Program machines,' concludes Heffernan

  61. ANother example by koan · · Score: 1

    Of how we are just living off the production of an earlier age, just a bunch of cavemen foraging in the garbage.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  62. Re:The most depressing thing is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Therein lies the problem. Politicians will promise whatever the hell they have to to get elected. Everyone will make tons of money! Jobs for everyone! There won't be a homeless person in the country! Goodbye all wars! Everything will be awesome for everyone forever!

    And of course, the absolute second they're elected, it's all "HAHA, thanks fuckers *flips bird*. Time for 4 years of doing the exact same fucking thing we've been doing before. You thought the country was in debt LAST time? Shit man, wait until you see what I'VE got planned."

  63. Re:Units... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hullo, guv'nah! I came over all peckish, and just popped by for a spot of tea and a nosh on some crumpets! But if you don't mind, I'd like to use the loo first - I nearly got hit by a lorry, and now I'm afraid my knickers might just be a wee bit grotty.

    Oh, do be a good bloke and turn up the telly! It's an advert by the Beeb for my new programme! It's called, "I'm so British, I shit the queen!"

    Yes, we use tons, feet, yards, and pounds as units of measurement. And you can suck our hairy, macho, productive American balls if you don't like it, you limp-wristed, ascot-wearing, condescending blatherskite. Most Americans feel Brits are obnoxious cuntrags, and I suspect it comes from eg. posts like yours.

    Pip pip! Cheerio!

  64. Re:The most depressing thing is by fnj · · Score: 1

    I just wanted to thank you for your misinformed post because the other two replies were gold mines of actual factual information from which I learned a lot.

  65. Great Graphic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is a great graphic of The-Fifty....

    http://media.cleveland.com/business_impact/photo/14fgalcoajpg-907c9c9e5d681d08.jpg

  66. Re:The most depressing thing is by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

    I would agree with you if Social programs was 70% of our spending, but in reality it's not even 20%. Defense is the bulk of our spending

    Well, bulk of our "discretionary" spending. The New York Times's "Obama’s 2011 Budget Proposal: How It’s Spent" chart (requires Flash) shows that - click on "Hide Mandatory Spending". That's probably what most of the replies to your post are talking about.

    and is not needed to be that large.

    That I certainly find credible.

  67. Re:The most depressing thing is by N!k0N · · Score: 1

    In my spare time, I work with a museum that restores steam equipment. Nothing as well-known as the NPK 765, or the UP 844 though...

    You're right on the materials of the boiler, and a few other parts being more or less "common" cast iron (or steel), but there are other bits made from alloys that are more difficult to work with. For example, the cylinder liners needed to be repaired/replaced -- samples were taken to metallurgists, who thought we were BSing them because of the composition (whatever it is, it's still *hard* to get right nearly 100 years after this particular locomotive was completed -- assuming these liners are the originals...). Re-reading my original post, I intended to say "casting" rather than forging .. but in either case, with so few companies able to make the parts (and even fewer who can conform to FRA standards), things get expensive rather quickly

    I'd have to do more research on the 1/10 models -- I'm much more familiar with the G-scale models that operate at like 35 PSI or so...

  68. Interlocking grain structure by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1
    I really cannot argue with someone who uses meaningless expressions and argues from 'obviousness'. Did you realise that things are only supposed to be patentable if they are not obvious?

    I imagine, however, that it is all moot, because Ford isn't going to go with your gut feeling engineering.

    As for paint- depends on function. Powder paint processes are nothing to do with powder metallurgy. Appropriate paint is all about substrate, environment and usage (like you cannot touch up powder paint or use it on abs, so it is no good for cars).

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:Interlocking grain structure by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I imagine, however, that it is all moot, because Ford isn't going to go with your gut feeling engineering.

      That's right, they went with what was cheap. They didn't make the change to increase durability, they did it to reduce cost. It was not a good idea.

      Powder paint processes are nothing to do with powder metallurgy.

      That's right, but there's a parallel to be drawn, and I did so. Each tool is to be used when it's applicable. You don't want a MIM slide stop in your 1911 but it's fine for the mainspring housing. You don't want a plastic MSH but plastic grips won't hurt anyone. And so on.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  69. what does a fusion program have to do with this? by sonoronos · · Score: 1

    The heavy press is essentially an enormous metalworking machine, the theoretical background of which is well understood. The basic machine is primitive. What makes it significant is that it provides unique utility simply because of its scale.

    What would be comparable in modern terms are gigantic, high-speed rapid prototyping machines with work envelopes exceeding 50 x 50 x 50 feet. Preferably selective laser-sintering, with the ability to build the entire mechanical structure of a jet without a single weld or rivet.

  70. Re:The most depressing thing is by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

    The guys at the big threshing show here seem to be big into making those 1/10 (best guess) models and they are quite impressive. One guy has miniature hand built 1/10 or so scale Minneapolis steam tractor (sames as the big one pictured in my previous post) and some small hand built trailers that he gives kids rides on, and that one he is running at about 150 PSI. Of course these are built and designed by guys in their spare time out on their farms. I can see the cylinder liners needing to be made from something other than cast iron or mild steel but I would have thought that there would be a suitable modern replacement material that wouldn't get super expensive, or is it mostly because of the size?

    If you work with any narrow gauge stuff you might want to check out these guys. They have some rather impressive stuff the largest of which is the Chicago Burlington & Quincy No. 5629 even though it is standard gauge instead of narrow gauge. They also have some of the engines that ran on the cog railway up Pike's Peak, and those are some mean looking little engines yet still a bit goofy looking.

    --
    Time to offend someone
  71. Now made in Germany by admiralfurburger · · Score: 2

    It wasn't repaired, it was replaced. It has 14 main heavy components. This article: http://aciers.free.fr/index.php/2010/10/01/siempelkamp-breaks-own-world-record-us/ Says the German company made the 14 main heavy components...

    Google docs has an interesting 14 page manual for the beast, but slashdot thinks the url is too long...

  72. Re:The most depressing thing is by N!k0N · · Score: 1

    It's probably the size moreso than the metallurgy (though, like I said ... I was told the guys in the lab thought we were pulling some kind of prank when they ran the tests on a part of one of them) -- the main drive cylinders of the locomotive we're working on are 26" bore with 30" stroke (IIRC, might be a little bigger/smaller in one/both of the directions, since it got retrofitted with a new pair of cylinders after an accident in the '30s or '40s), and the liner itself is something like 1/4" thick, with just a hint of taper on the outer surface so it is easier to get into the cylinder casting (again, don't remember the numbers, but something like 1/32" over the length of the casting). It also has some "complex" voids in it for venting the steam, which apparently need to be cast in, rather than cut out after the fact.

  73. Re: carbon fiber engine block by rhook · · Score: 1

    Re-read the article, the metal parts are liners and he is replacing those with composites.

    "Holtzberg plans on switching to a molybdenum plasma spray coating in place of aluminum cylinder liners to trim additional pounds."

  74. WRONGO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Forging creates one type of MOLECULAR BONDING (AKA Chemistry!) or crystal structure than casting. Molecular bonds are a subject of chemistry. That a reduced expression of the chemical composition may be the same is of no relevance.

    Benzene is C6H6 as are other compounds:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C6H6

    So, big fat fucking NO, chemistry does not say a forged part and cast part are the same.

    - a PhD chem. eng.

  75. Inches? Really? by ks*nut · · Score: 1

    It's so damned refreshing so see the term "tolerances are measured in thousandths of an inch". AAARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!

  76. Not overdesigned by dbIII · · Score: 1

    That typewriter would have seen less use in it's lifetime than some office typewriters in the 1950s would have seen in a couple of years. It's a tool designed for constant use for years. It's expected modes of failure would be wear related and not age related (indoors so not likely to corrode much) so it would last indefinitely in storage.
    It's not overdesigned, instead it's designed for reliability with hard and repeated use. To use some analogies - it's server or telco class not a cheap desktop machine, or a Mercedes not a Datsun 120Y.

  77. Re: carbon fiber engine block by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see this being better used for making smaller and lighter electric motors than car engines.

    electric motors can run cooler as well.

  78. Those skilled people moved on and are lost by dbIII · · Score: 1

    If you are an expert in a field that no longer exists you move on instead of just waiting for your job to appear again. If you can't make rocket parts then maybe you can machine whistles that imitate the mating calls of ducks and pay the bills that way.
    The manufacturing base has moved on and we can't expected to be saved by a duck sex machiner.
    It's going to take real work and a lot of resources committed by a lot of people instead of just expecting people to come back and work with gear that was scrapped long ago.

  79. Minor mistake above by dbIII · · Score: 1

    The powder metal parts are forged after sintering to get 100% density instead of leaving lots of little holes throughout. The cost saving is in having to do less forging or machining than other ways.
    Forging strengthens by creating more disorder in the crystal structure at the atomic level (dislocations), and to break the material you have to overcome some of that first. It's the same as "work hardening" only that it's possible to do more of it hot without breaking the object.

  80. Re:Units... by jandersen · · Score: 1

    Aww, did I hurt your feeling? I do apologise; us Europeans are usually able to laugh at ourselves, my mistake.

    Your parody of Britishism isn't too bad - a bit stilted and too much "My Fair Lady", but not a bad effort. I'll give 7 out of 10.