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Wozniak's Original System Description of the Apple ][

CowboyRobot writes "Opening with the line, 'To me, a personal computer should be small, reliable, convenient to use and inexpensive,' Steve Wozniak gave his system description of the Apple-II in the May, 1977 issue of BYTE. It's instructive to read what was worth bragging about back then (PDF), such as integral graphics: 'A key part of the Apple-II design is an integral video display generator which directly accesses the system's programmable memory. Screen formatting and cursor controls are realized in my design in the form of about 200 bytes of read only memory.' And it shows what the limitations were in those days, 'While writing Apple BASIC, I ran into the problem of manipulating the 16 bit pointer data and its arithmetic in an 8 bit machine. My solution to this problem of handling 16 bit data, notably pointers, with an 8 bit microprocessor was to implement a nonexistent 16 bit processor in software, interpreter fashion.'"

170 comments

  1. Woz invented Java! by binarylarry · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Take that Oracle!

      (I kid)

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    Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    1. Re:Woz invented Java! by russotto · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You kid, but in all seriousness, SWEET-16 probably does qualify as prior art for a few dozen currently litigated patent claims. Except you couldn't really call the Apple II "mobile". You could fairly call it a "limited resource computing device", though (a phrase found in one of Apple's iPod patents)

    2. Re:Woz invented Java! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  2. Mistake by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Informative

    Spot the mistake on page 40: the timer used was a 558, not a 553.

    I re-implemented this system for a project to connect old game controllers to USB. It is low cost and works remarkably well for basic gaming.

    --
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    1. Re:Mistake by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      Getting back on topic, has anyone started a petition to get the other Steve back as head honcho at Apple?

      Shit, that happens, let me know.

      With Woz at the helm, I may just be forced to reconsider my Apple boycott, walled garden or not...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:Mistake by Purity+Of+Essence · · Score: 2

      Well spotted. I recently learned how the paddle interface worked when reverse-engineering an old Apple II game. Even though I cut my teeth on an Apple II, I never knew how the circuit actually worked. When I saw the 6502 paddle code in the game it made no sense to me until I examined the Apple II's schematics. Then my mind was slightly blown. Just another one of those brilliantly simple hacks that riddle the Apple II's design and make it an almost magical device to me.

      --
      +0 Meh
    3. Re:Mistake by MBCook · · Score: 1

      There are quite a few typos in the article, it seems to have been created by OCR. My guess is the OCR got the 3 and 8 mixed up.

      It was quite interesting to read, but a simple pass by an editor would have fixed most of the little errors (usually extra spaces in words).

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    4. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your mind is easily blown. How is a single slope A/D that's been standard practice since before Woz was even born a "brilliantly simple hack"? Jesus, I've got computer and electronics books from 1962 that are yellow and brittle that describe these circuits. Woz has a bit of an overinflated reputation IMO. Every single hardware engineer of the era worked the same way. Yes, even at Atari and Commodore.

    5. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative
      Yes. There are so many people that labored in obscurity that are far more deserving of praise. You want "brilliant"? Try the MIT Rad Lab series. Or Englebart, or Sutherland.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Sutherland

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Engelbart

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_Laboratory

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._C._R._Licklider

      Somehow, some guy plugging a resistor to a 555, as described in the 555 datasheet, fails to amaze in comparison.

      I'm just sick and tired of the continuous hype for Woz when the people who actually invented computing are forgotten.

      Your mind should be blown by people who invent entire concepts from thin air.

    6. Re:Mistake by samkass · · Score: 1, Funny

      Getting back on topic, has anyone started a petition to get the other Steve back as head honcho at Apple?

      Shit, that happens, let me know.

      With Woz at the helm, I may just be forced to reconsider my Apple boycott, walled garden or not...

      And you'll probably be able to augment your iPhone via 6 PCI slots or one of 20 ports...

      --
      E pluribus unum
    7. Re:Mistake by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Getting back on topic, has anyone started a petition to get the other Steve back as head honcho at Apple?

      Shit, that happens, let me know.

      With Woz at the helm, I may just be forced to reconsider my Apple boycott, walled garden or not...

      And you'll probably be able to augment your iPhone via 6 PCI slots or one of 20 ports...

      You say that as if it's a bad thing....

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    8. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      Excellent. I hope I was to inform you and generate some interest in the history of technology. You want your mind blown? Try the history of the proximity fuze invented in WWII. You know, back when you had vacuum tubes. They managed to cram an entire doppler radar into the nose cone of artillery shells that had to survive 20,000G acceleration and 100,000RPM rotation when fired. Not only that, but be safe to handle and store, and come up to power within milliseconds after being fired. You'd find that hard to do with today's technology.

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/MK53_fuze.jpg

    9. Re:Mistake by Purity+Of+Essence · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Here's the very strange thing about that error. I have a scan of that issue of Byte and it does indeed say 553 there. The article also has a circuit diagram, again showing a 553. If you look at the original Redbook schematics, it also shows a 553 quad timer. There is even advert for 553 quad timers on page 174 of that issue of Byte. I've also seen a post online from someone with a 553 chip in an apparent timer circuit asking about it's identity. All that and no datasheet or cross reference for a 553 quad timer can seem to be found. My best guess is 553 comes from an imprinting error on actual 558 chips.

      --
      +0 Meh
    10. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As much as I think of Woz as one the all-time heckuvva outsanding engineering types and hacker extraordinaire (in the good sense), making him head of Apple would be one of the worst things that could happen to it. He had/has no real business sense or skill whatsoever- something he himself has admitted to. The man's approach it that he hacks; he doesn't design.

      But to keep it simple and give a nice hypothetical: if Woz had been in charge and Apple managed to live that long under his leadership, the iPod would have had more storage than a Nomad and been wireless (and had a much different name), but it would have gone on to have been an utter failure.

    11. Re:Mistake by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let me know too, I'll want to short Apple stock. Woz is a pretty good tech head but as a businessman he's a disaster.

    12. Re:Mistake by slew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The 555 stuff isn't really that amazing, but Woz did some fairly amazing things. For example...

      Integrating the dram refresh with the video display on the original Apple ][ was pretty clever as with the 1/2 phase pixel shift to get cheap color w/o fancy sub-carrier modulation.

      The original Apple ][ floppy drive subsystem using "raw" drive mechanims from Shugart and implementing the controller mechanism in 5 chips and some software (soft sectored avoiding the punch hole detector, no track0 detector, no head load solinoid, 5/3 software group-coder allowing 13-16 sectors/track instead of 10 when others were using MFM, etc.). This when other vendors at the time had quite inferior, yet more expensive floppy disk drives.

      Sure it isn't rocket science, but it is still good engineering wizardry, not just "plugging resistors".

    13. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me know too, I'll want to short Apple stock. Woz is a pretty good tech head but as a businessman he's a disaster.

      I suspect he'd do better and be happier in a position over technical decisions rather than CEO.

    14. Re:Mistake by bryan1945 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm just sick and tired of the continuous hype for technologists when the people who actually invented math are forgotten. :D

      --
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    15. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every single hardware engineer of the era worked the same way

      Except that, for some reason, they didn't.

    16. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait until you figure out the disk interface. _That_ was a truly brilliant piece of hackery.

    17. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Touché. You find me humbled.

    18. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Woz came up with so many improvements over previous art: cutting edge stuff. As you have noted: Video retrace DRAM refresh, well designed interpreted Sweet-16, very efficient BASIC, group encoding for the floppy disk, color shift without subcarriers.

      Not rocket science? That is VERY conservative science. No place to innovate at Woz's pace. There was little, if any prior art: Microprocessors were just too small for "serious study" in most institutions. Woz was, and has always been the king of the tech inventor/implementors.

      No body, but nobody came up with so many improvements in such a short time.

    19. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's nice that you change your example totally to try to refute my "resistor" remark. Of course making a drive controller is more than just plugging a resistor. But what does this have to do with thinking that a 555 single-slope A/D is some sort of mind blowing technological feat? What Woz did was no different from what any other competent engineer would have done in the era of 5$ logic gates.

    20. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi there buzzkill! How are you today?

    21. Re:Mistake by slew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ??? Mr/Ms AC, I didn't change any examples, that was my first post. Perhaps you are refering to another poster?

      I can't speak for anyone else, but my first statement of my post was "The 555 stuff isn't really that amazing" and I finished with "Sure it isn't rocket science..."

      Do you have some issue with these statements?

      Or are you (Mr/Ms AC) just so filled with Woz hate that you have to attack everyone that says anything even remotely positive about Mr Woz with a hair trigger post? Are you're pissed that he wasn't eliminated before your favorite Dancing with the stars celebrity? Fan of Holly Madison, or a GoGo's fan maybe? Is that why you are posting AC? ;^) ;^)

      Of course Mr Woz isn't god (despite what some OTHER posters may have gushed about), be he seems to have been a damn good engineer. However, sometimes the best role models for people are not the ones that are so beyond us that we can never aspire to be them (scientists or researchers that create a new paradigm), but maybe for some of us lowly engineers, someone that we hope we can hold a candle to on a good day and thus more relateable and a bar that we might be able to reach some day if the stars align...

      Is it literally too hard for you to let people have their own heros instead foisting yours upon others? Something to think about Mr/Ms AC...

      But to answer your question (if it was directed to me and not the other poster), what Woz did with the 55x timer is very vanilla and probably could be copied out of a fairchild or national app-note, but what Woz did with the disc controller was something that pretty much was wizardry. Basically he single handedly designed a amazingly cheap floppy disc controller (40 chips vs 5 chips) that not only was more advanced in storage capacity and access speed than any other in the industry at the time.

      By doing so allowed Apple to sell a disc drive for under $500 with a BOM of $150 (eventually reduced to $80) enabling Apple to practically mint money with this product. In several interviews with Mr Jobs and other Apple and (some disbelieving) Shugart contemporaries, they credit this floppy disc controller design by Woz as the major growth driver at Apple and probably more important than the computer itself in launching the Apple IPO. Basically, Woz didn't have any background in floppy disc controller theory, he read some data sheets and figured it out and beat out the best in the industry at the time. He also layed out the controller circuit board to minimize the feedthroughs to help improve the reliability and manufacturability, basically a soup-to-nuts holistic designer. That's engineering wizardry (to me anyhow, as a lowly engineer)... something I might aspire to someday... But even the best designer needs to crank out a 55x-esque circuit sometimes. I'm sure all you your heroes had a few more pedestrian accomplishments along the way too.

    22. Re:Mistake by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 2
      I was a hardware engineer in the day, and yes they did when facing these problems. Yes I did build floppy controllers which used comparable hacks, and so did others.

      I am not saying Woz was not a good engineer, I am saying that he was not the only good engineer, and he was doing what good engineers do. In those days, you could not get a patent on bending a piece of wire, or some other triviality.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    23. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, Earth to jealous dumbass: It wasn't about the goddamned resistor.

    24. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am fine. How's your karma?

    25. Re:Mistake by Eric+Smith · · Score: 1

      Note that the 558 is not retriggerable. This led to bugs in joystick (or game paddle) reading in many Apple II programs. If you trigger the 558 to read input 0, then want to read input 1, do NOT just trigger it again. Make sure that input 1 has timed out first, before triggering it to be read. Otherwise you'll read an incorrect value. Or trigger once, then read all inputs you're interested in at the same time.

    26. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to equate supposed sophistication with genius; sorry, but many of us think exactly the opposite of you. While you cite excellent projects which require a lot of engineering knowledge and labwork (like "being able to be handled safely and still arm itself milliseconds after launch"), we find even more astounding those who come up with ideas.

      And Engelbart, which you cite, was very happy in his idea of the mouse -- because it was just as simple as Woz' game paddles. Contrast that with Microsoft's camera mouse (the now common optical one) which is very sophisticated and yet fails to meet the simplicity criterion.

      Now, if you don't think Woz is a genius fro such things, pardon, but you're like someone who doesn't like a popular song and starts complaining that it plays too much. Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, simplicity is hard to attain?

      Well, so that you know, it is.

      Woz made a lot of difference at a time when computers had sixteen keys and a four digit LED display as output. He went for the complete home computer at an affordable price and Jobs, at that time, understood why that was important -- he returned to the good path with the iPhone before his death, as it is somewhat affordable in the USA (but not in my country!).

      While the final price could not be the lowest, the Apple ][+ had an array of amazing features. I remember I could use other people's PCs for work which had no graphics and how I longed to get an Apple to myself... which I finally got, but only after buying a ZX80 like computer, by another genius called Clive Sinclair. Many happy hours and much was learned with such machines.

      Nowadays it always amazes me how much computing power is wasted when we have machines insanely more powerful which still take a lot of time to bootstrap.

      > What Woz did was no different from what any other competent engineer would have done in the era of 5$ logic gates.

      Maybe our difference in opinion relates to what each one would call "competent".

    27. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I have to disagree on the color. I thought the color selection and screen layout on the Apple II was rather poor.

      Commodore did it better with the VIC, but even then it wasn't great. Commodore's VIC II chip, as used in the C64/128 also had poor color selection, even though they had the right idea to do accurate phase shifts in hardware but they chose to hard-code the colors rather than use registers for an abundant color selection. Atari, however, did color selection mostly right with the 2600 and their line of computers. If Commodore had let the phase shift be software controlled rather than hard-wired, they would have out done Atari.

    28. Re:Mistake by doccus · · Score: 1

      .... has anyone started a petition to get the other Steve back as head honcho at Apple?

      Sign me up!!!!!!!!!!!!

    29. Re:Mistake by doccus · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but at this point Apple's bulletproof.. He wouldn't be the only one with his hand on the tiller..

    30. Re:Mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Review the design of the Apple][ floppy disk controller. "Sweet" just begins to describe its elegance (= power/complexity).

      Just because a reader picked a pedestrian circuit doesn't mean that Woz wasn't a top-rank designer. His designs made most microcomputer designs look routine (and they were).

      He says some of the things that made him proud: video refresh that doesn't interfere with processor memory access and also refreshes the DRAM with no extra logic; fully-decoded slot signals for 8 peripheral slots; putting all the features needed for games on the main board, including a fast integer BASIC.

      These are the elements of a leading design for its time.

  3. Almost, Apple... by jmerlin · · Score: 4, Funny

    To me, a personal computer should be small, reliable, convenient to use and inexpensive,

    Small, check.
    Reliable, check.
    Convenient to use, check.
    Inexpensive... whoops.

    1. Re:Almost, Apple... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      They where inexpensive, for a computer.

      --
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    2. Re:Almost, Apple... by readandburn · · Score: 1

      How expensive were other personal computers when the Apple ][ was released?

    3. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Do Apple critics still use that old canard? For the most part, Apple devices have been pretty price competitive for many years now, even the Macs. I remember when the iPad was rumored to cost $1000. It's like trolls ran out of every other schtick, so they remain stuck on the most recent one they had, which was price.

    4. Re:Almost, Apple... by NixieBunny · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I was in high school working in a retail computer store in 1978 when the Apple ][ and its competitors were taking hold in the market. The Apple was the only computer with high-resolution color graphics for under $5000. I could tell just by looking at its motherboard that its design was something special - having built a video display board from scratch with my brother, I knew how much circuitry is usually required.

      --
      The determined Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language.
    5. Re:Almost, Apple... by dissy · · Score: 1

      Inexpensive... whoops.

      So one third of the price of your nearest competitor is not inexpensive in your mind?

    6. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The right question to ask would be how expensive were other *computers* when the Apple II was announced? The II came out in 1977, when the only real options on the nascent PC market were the II, the Commodore PET, and the TRS-80. (I won't start any religious wars here over the relative price/value ratios of each) I think Woz's point wasn't that the II needed to be the cheapest product in this category (the II was the most expensive of the three), but that this type of product needed to be in a range that most families could afford.

    7. Re:Almost, Apple... by jmerlin · · Score: 1

      This comment was made from my MBP. Truthful comments about Apple products are not the position you think (anti-fanboyism), and your rabid responses are predictable. Have a nice day.

    8. Re:Almost, Apple... by ThePeices · · Score: 2, Funny

      Macs price competitive for the hardware?

      Dude, what planet are you on? Let me guess, one with a bite taken out of it?

    9. Re:Almost, Apple... by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Roughly the same price, because the only other alternative was from IBM. The PC clones had not arrived yet.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    10. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can we stop overdramatizing Apple's prices, please? That is nothing like choosing of your own free will to buy an Apple product for large sums of money (worth it or not).

    11. Re:Almost, Apple... by lord_mike · · Score: 5, Informative

      At the time the Apple II was released, there were only two other non-kit microcomputer systems available--the Radio Shack TRS-80 and the Commodore PET. Both models were well $1000, while the Apple II was about twice as much for equivalent memory. Of course, the Apple II could do a lot more than the other two systems, especially in regards to graphics. However, as the technology improved, and competitors offered more powerful systems at lower prices, Apple never reduced their prices. At the peak of the microcomputer golden age, an Apple II system cost nearly 10 times as much as an equivalent Commodore 64 system.

      When Apple released their floppy disk drive, they priced it at $550. People asked why they priced it so high. Apple responded, "Because we can."

    12. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can we stop overdramatizing Apple's prices, please? That is nothing like choosing of your own free will to buy an Apple product for large sums of money (worth it or not).

      Free... what now? I don't recall that phrase in the indoctrination .MOV file.

    13. Re:Almost, Apple... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 0

      Having used some, I must admit it is good-quality hardware. Just not such good quality that it's worth twice the cost of a similar-spec PC. I've only got a macbook because they were the only manufacturer left that use a decently high-resolution screen. A few others used to (Dell, I recall) but they no longer offer WUXGA+, and I wanted the vertical pixels.

    14. Re:Almost, Apple... by lord_mike · · Score: 0

      Macs price competitive? Since when? When I was looking for a laptop, an equivalent MacBook with the same hardware would have cost me FIVE times more than a windows machine. MacOS is great, but it's not worth over $1000 price difference on a non-Mac machine.

    15. Re:Almost, Apple... by lord_mike · · Score: 2

      Whoops... should have said, "Well under $1000." Sorry for the typo.

    16. Re:Almost, Apple... by lord_mike · · Score: 1

      You're a little ahead of yourself, there... The IBM PC didn't come out until 4 years later.

    17. Re:Almost, Apple... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Let me see. The mac pro isn't a fair one to look at, being a high-end professional workstation, so how about something consumer. Say, the Mac Mini. that's £529 for an i5 dual-core 2.3GHz, 2GB ram, 500GB HD and Intel HD graphics. That's their entry-level desktop computer. Now, if I go to ebuyer... they don't actually have anything with only 2GB ram, so I'll have to get a 4GB system. But for £512 - slightly *less* than a mac mini - I can get an HP with 4GB ram, 500GB HD and a *quad* core 3.0GHz processor. It's twice the ram, more than twice the processor performance, and lower-cost. I could do even better, but then I'd have to go for a machine without a well-known brand, which wouldn't be fair. The only downside is that it's a bit larger, midi-tower, but the slightly larger size doesn't outweigh that the Mac Mini is more expensive than a PC with twice the processing speed and memory. So, whatever you may say about the quality of Apple hardware in their defense, it still remains substantially more expensive than the competition.

      I'd compare the iMac, but not many PCs come built into the monitor.

    18. Re:Almost, Apple... by tlhIngan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Macs price competitive for the hardware?

      Dude, what planet are you on? Let me guess, one with a bite taken out of it?

      Depends how you compare. If you're trying to compare say, a Macbook Pro with a netbook, then yeah, Macs are more expensive. Or even a Macbook Air against a netbook. Ignoring stuff like an Atom is no way competitive to a Core2Duo, nevermind the i5, the SSD, memory, etc.

      OTOH, if you try to compare like with like (as much as possible), they're quite competitive. The usual explainations for deviations is use of cheaper bigger heavier laptops in place of svelte ones (e.g., trying to compare a MBP against some much heavier, much larger Dell model instead of using Dell's more expensive smaller and more portable ones).

      And displays as well - some fail to account for upgrading a 15" laptop from a 1366x768 display to I think the 1440x900+ that Apple puts in the 15" (nevermind the 1920x1200 on the 17")

      Heck, even the Air is standing on its own compared to the Ultrabooks Intel's trying to bring out (hint: they're all a joke. First pass - no manufacturer wanted to make an ultrabook because they couldn't be competitive. Second pass - with Intel subsidies, they got the price to be the same as the Air, but with specs that were iffier (i3 vs. i5, slower, heavier, etc). Third pass (current) - intel relaxed the specs even more to be far more generous - so you can find 14" ultrabooks that are 1" thick or so - basically "small laptop').

      Of course, this holds true pretty much for the first couple of months of Apple's refresh cycle. After that, it's not competitive anymore. Given the current Macbooks are all needing refresh, they are uncompetitive. Once Apple releases their Ivy Bridge laptops (WWDC?) they'll be competitive again. It's because Apple doesn't drop their price as time goes on nor do they have sales.

    19. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      links to the mythical pc that is *equivelent* to a macbook that only costs $200

    20. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess it depends on what you look at. How many Dell, HP, Sony, etc. Laptops are there with a 17" 1920x1080 screen with 2.4GHz i7? I haven't seen too many. And the ones that they did have were in the $2k range, just like the 17" MacBook Pro.

    21. Re:Almost, Apple... by BlueStraggler · · Score: 1

      Cool, you're in 1996. Buy Yahoo stock, then sell it in 2000. In fact, start giving up all your tired opinions in 2000, as they will start to become invalid around then. By 2012, the entire industry will struggle for years to compete with Apple on price, and fail.

    22. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > At the peak of the microcomputer golden age, an Apple II system cost nearly 10 times as much as an equivalent Commodore 64 system.

      In 1984, an Apple //c was $800, while a C64 and 1541 drive was about $400. So only twice as much.

      (The //c had 128KB and 80 col support, while the Commie had better graphics & sound. )

    23. Re:Almost, Apple... by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      they no longer offer WUXGA+

      I don't know about you, but who on earth remembers what all those resolution acronyms actually mean off the top of their head?

      Scrolling down the list I come across QSXGA, FWVGA, WHUXGA..... I mean, WHUXGA sounds like a province in China or something. There's probably a systematic set of rules, but it doesn't make the names any more helpful-looking for non-autistic people :-/

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    24. Re:Almost, Apple... by Ihmhi · · Score: 3, Funny

      He's referring to modern Apple hardware, which some might call "overpriced."

      While others might call it "rape."

      Come on now, be fair. How could you "rape" someone with Apple hardware? Let's compare an iPhone to, say, a vibrator.

      A vibrator is sleek, metallic, vibrates, and can be shoved up your ass. That's completely different from an iPhone which is sleek, metallic, vibrates, and can be-

      Mother of god.

    25. Re:Almost, Apple... by gstrickler · · Score: 2

      Size matters, and it costs. The mini is comparatively expensive because it has to use notebook components to fit that form factor. It also has the lowest idle power of any mainstream computer, so it's lower cost to operate.

      When you look at notebooks, size, weight, battery life, display quality and resolution, and durability all matter. Where are the non-Apple notebooks that are competitive with the MacBook or MBP in these factors. There are several, from HP, Dell, Sony, Asus, etc., and they're all in the same price range as Apple's offerings.

      If you don't care about size, or weight, or battery life, or display quality, or durability, there are plenty of cheaper options, but don't try to claim they're comparable. They may suit your needs just as well, maybe even better, but that's not the same thing as being comparable hardware.

      Then, there is the difference in included software. Again, that may or not matter to you, but it's still a notable difference that you haven't accounted for.

      --
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    26. Re:Almost, Apple... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      How much does 16GB of flash memory for an iPhone cost again? And a 16GB SD card?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    27. Re:Almost, Apple... by lord_mike · · Score: 1

      The laptop I purchased was around $400. For the equivalent processor power, memory, display size, etc., I would have needed a $2,000 Mac Book Pro. I did my research. I really did want the Macbook, but I just couldn't justify to myself the massive price difference.

    28. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to look at a bunch of single board computers that lacked many features the Apple ][ included on thier bare board system (KIM-1, SYM-1, various 8080 and 6800-based trainers, etc.), then there were SS50 and S-100 bus systems that were really more business systems than "personal" computers.

      An IMSAI kit, when completed to the point of including a tape recorder interface (mass storage), memory, serial port (to attach your $500-750 terminal), chassis, etc. were all included the price easily exceeded that of the Apple ][...

    29. Re:Almost, Apple... by Rising+Ape · · Score: 0

      The people who say that Apple is no more expensive for "comparable" hardware ignore that most people don't need anything directly comparable. The people who want some super high end Dell laptop represent a small fraction of the market. For everyone else, "Apple is expensive" is a fair comment - all those extra features aren't worth the extra cost for most people, which is why they don't buy the equivalent PC products either.

    30. Re:Almost, Apple... by geogob · · Score: 1

      FFS, when will "you" people understand the basic concept that follows: At equal component level a PC is not less expensive than an the equivalent Apple. I mean, you can't blame a company for not wanting to sell low end computers, do you?

      I recently bough a high end PC laptop... a mac book pro would have even been less expensive with pretty much the same internal components.

    31. Re:Almost, Apple... by NSash · · Score: 1

      Whether an Apple laptop is price competitive depends on how long after release you look at it. Apple generally updates their laptops every 250-350 days, and AFAIK the price stays the same during that period.

    32. Re:Almost, Apple... by sensei+moreh · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Apple pricing at the dawn of the PC era (Fall 1981), when fresh out of graduate school, the university that hired me offered me $10K in start-up funds for my research lab. I knew I wanted a microcomputer system, but didn't know if the newly-introduced IBM PC was going to be anywhere nearly as well-supported as the Apple ][. So I took that $10K and bought an Apple ][+ with 64K RAM, a Z80 card, CP/M, 3 floppy drives, a monochrome (green) monitor, a color monitor, an Epson MX80 dot matrix printer, a Diablo daisy-wheel printer, Apple Pascal, Microsoft Fortran, and Wordstar. I think there were even a few dollars left over. The next spring, I decided I wanted system for myself so I spent $2200 on a Basis 108 (a German-made Apple ][ clone with a built-in Z80 card and a monstrously heavy case) with 2 floppy drives and a monochrome monitor.

      --
      Geology - it's not rocket science; it's rock science
    33. Re:Almost, Apple... by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      It was a long time ago that's for sure. I was a teenager. I remember we first got an Apple IIe. Then we went IBM, and have stayed that way ever since. You're probably right on the dates though. Still, back then the PC you wanted always cost around $5000, regardless of brand.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    34. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Meanwhile, in ER rooms all around the world:

      Doctor: "So let me get this straight: You're telling me that you were getting ready to take a shower, and you had your iPhone propped up vertically next to your scales. The floor was wet, and you slipped. It just so happens that you landed on your iPhone and it managed to insert itself into your rectum. Ok... And it just so happens that there are no significant cuts or scratches in the area of your anus, which also just so happens to be covered in vaseline. Are you sure you've told me the whole story?"

    35. Re:Almost, Apple... by msauve · · Score: 1

      "At the time the Apple II was released, there were only two other non-kit microcomputer systems available"

      That is, if you don't count the other ones which were available. Like the MITS Altair, IMSAI 8080, SOL-20, CompuColor, Cromemco Z2, Poly 88, etc.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    36. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You must be part of a different group of Apple apologists than the ones who brag about them being the most profitable smartphone manufacturer.

      I'll let that sink in a bit.

    37. Re:Almost, Apple... by rs79 · · Score: 0

      "How expensive were other personal computers when the Apple ][ was released?"

      What other personal computers? There really wern't any.

      There were hobby kits like S-1000 systems and for $2500 more you could get something like color graphics, 256x256x8 or somehting and a command line based CP/M. Some guys had LSI PDP's thathad been cast off, with RT-11 or something. There were other kits, products, but nothing else really looked and felt like a consumer product, that's sorta the point.

      And I say that as somebody loathed them, but you can't deny their impact.

      --
      Need Mercedes parts ?
    38. Re:Almost, Apple... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      I mean, WHUXGA sounds like a province in China or something.

      Or the sound you make when somebody kicks you in the solar plexus.

    39. Re:Almost, Apple... by CityZen · · Score: 4, Informative

      You should look at oldcomputers.net for this info.

      Radio Shack TRS-80:
      basic unit with 4K RAM and B/W video monitor: $600
      basic unit with 16K RAM and Level II basic, monitor: $1000
      ($300 Expansion Interface required to add more than 16K memory)
      basic unit with 16K RAM, Level II, Expansion Interface, monitor: $1300
      5.25" disk drive (requires 16K, Level II, Expansion Interface): $500

      Commodore PET:
      PET 2001 (4K RAM, built-in B/W monitor): $800
      (not especially upgradeable memory-wise)
      PET 4032 (in 1980; 32K RAM, built-in B/W monitor): $1300
      CBM 8050 dual floppy drive (in 1980): $1700

      Apple II: (in 1977)
      Basic unit with 4K: $1300
      Basic unit with 16K: $1700
      Disk II floppy drive with controller card (1978): $600

      Atari 800: (in 1979)
      Basic unit with 8K: $1000
      (includes slots for 3 optional 16K RAM cartridges)
      810 floppy drive: $600

      Exidy Sorcerer: (1980)
      basic unit with 8K RAM: $900
      basic unit with 16K RAM: $1150
      S100 Expansion Unit: $420
      Video Disk unit (B/W monitor + 2 floppy drives): $3000

      Note that prices came down over time, especially due to decreases in RAM prices.

      So, I'd say that there was something of an "Apple tax" even back then, but it wasn't really so much. When you considered how much expansion capability you got with the basic unit (which for other systems was either an add-on or simply not possible), it was actually a good deal.

    40. Re:Almost, Apple... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      It really depends - the consumer ones are pretty competitive for what you get. They're a little underpowered right now, but that's because Apple doesn't incrementally update them, so they're better value when they've just been refreshed.

      They can't compete with el cheapo plastic boxes or whitebox self assembled machines, but they are not meant to.

      Where they really fall down is the Mac Pro, which is simply woefully overpriced for what it is, since it hasn't been updated for 2 years and still costs the same, and even back then it was more expensive then equivalent competitors.

    41. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I don't recall that phrase in the indoctrination .MOV file.

      Apple products: prepare to give up all your wages.

      WIndows products: prepare to give up your sanity.

    42. Re:Almost, Apple... by jo_ham · · Score: 2

      Who says the $100 price difference is solely down to the extra cost of the higher density NAND? They cost more because a) that's what the market will bear and b) making different models of a similar device on a mass scale does not always enable the economics of said devices to merely come down to the raw delta in the cost of the pieces.

    43. Re:Almost, Apple... by petteyg359 · · Score: 0

      Oh, really? Apple wants $2500 for a 15" MacBook Pro with a 1680x1050 screen and 4GB RAM and a "2.4GHz CPU". They don't specify what actual model that is, and I'm not going to bother to look it up elsewhere. If somebody wants me to buy from them, not only do they have to have decent prices, but they need to actually define what I'm buying. I paid less than $1300 for a 15" laptop with a i7 2760 for the extra virtualization features, 1920x1080 screen, 8GB RAM, Blu-Ray drive, DisplayPort, powered eSATA/USB 2.0 combo port, USB 3.0 ports, Intel 6250 wireless+bluetooth, etc. Tell me again how they're not less expensive at equal or even greater component value?

    44. Re:Almost, Apple... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      You won't compare an all-in-one like the iMac yet you will compare Apple's "entry level" (your description) Mac Mini with a Midi Tower.

      Right. Legit.

      The Mac Mini is not sold as an entry level machine designed to compare to small towers, it's designed to be an extremely small HTPC-type computer. You're not comparing like with like at all. Now, if you *do* compare the Mac Mini you'll find it is still more expensive than other machines in the same form factor, but that is mainly down to component choice (eg, the i5 vs Atom or Core 2 Duo) etc.

    45. Re:Almost, Apple... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      I think that the PC industry is one of the very few market segments where "you get what you pay for" is ignored. Sure, you can buy a cheap Dell laptop (as opposed to an expensive Dell laptop - they do make higher end ones) and then you spend the rest of the machine's life cursing the poor build quality with the creaky plastic case and the poor cooling solution that is barely adequate for it, so that it spins up that tiny, noisy fan every 30 seconds, then eventually breaks due to the case flexing slightly so the heatsink comes away from the CPU... then someone says "you could buy a Macbook Pro, which has a case machined out of a block of aluminium, but otherwise very similar internal components".... "oh no, that's just *way* too expensive... I'll just buy another cheap Dell.

      People don't seem to be capable of understanding that not everything costs the same amount of money, and that just because a computer has the same hardware specs (eg, 2GHz CPU, 4GB RAM) that it should cost exactly the same as another computer with those specs.

      We don't do this for cars, or clothes, or power tools, or almost anything else with variable quality products, yet we always seem to race to the bottom with computers.

    46. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You got the macbook because there is no similarly spec'd hardware?

    47. Re:Almost, Apple... by Teeroy32 · · Score: 0

      > I don't recall that phrase in the indoctrination .MOV file.

      Apple products: prepare to give up all your wages.

      WIndows products: prepare to give up your sanity.

      I'll add to that Linux Products: prepare to have no spare time but feel good you achieved something by your self

      --
      I don't have an attitude problem, Its you that has a problem with my attitude
    48. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you can get an iPhone up your rear end, you've been using said rear end for way to much enjoyment. You could always go get yourself an iPad :-)

    49. Re:Almost, Apple... by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      Why did you really want it? What was the advantage you thought you'd have with a MacBook Pro at 5x the price?

    50. Re:Almost, Apple... by Pubstar · · Score: 0

      Okay, so lets just put an end to this whole 'they're competitive' bullshit. Lets throw the MBP against... lets say a Razer Blade. We all know that Razer is notoriously expensive for the shit they make (kinda like Apple).

      MBP Vs. Blade

      Whats that? The MBP configuration that is around the same build specs as the Blade is $650 more. That's even with the (gimmicky) switchblade panel on the laptop. How does it feel to be in the cult of Steve Jobs?

    51. Re:Almost, Apple... by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      To take is a bit further. We have arrived at the 'great enough' stage of computing. For most practical uses the differences between the HP and apple machine are truly minimal. Raw performance is ALMOST a secondary concern now.

      --
      Good-bye
    52. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TRS-80 and Commodore PET were also introduced in 1977, same as the Apple II.

    53. Re:Almost, Apple... by jasonq · · Score: 1, Funny

      Well, let's see...

      I just put on my Daring Fireball t-shirt, 501s and Converse because I'm just about to walk through the park to an art gallery with my extremely hot wife... Yeah, this cult I'm in is pretty cool.

    54. Re:Almost, Apple... by jasonq · · Score: 1

      I'd compare the iMac, but not many PCs come built into the monitor.

      Wait a minute, didn't the bulk of your post just criticise the Mac Mini for what it was lacking?

    55. Re:Almost, Apple... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      I called it 'entry level' because it's the cheapest computer that Apple sell.

      Ok, let's try something else. How about something which owes nothing to Apple manufacturing like, say, a hard drive. One drive is much like another, really. Interchangeable, so long as the numbers match. So, how much does Apple charge for one of their drives with an Apple sticker on?

      http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MC730ZM/A?n=internal&fnode=MTY1NDA0Nw&s=topSellers
      £254, for a 7200 2TB 3.5". How much for a 7200 2TB 3.5" at ebuyer?
      http://www.ebuyer.com/319641-barracuda-2tb-sata-3-5in-7200rpm-64mb-6gb-s-in-st2000dm001
      £89.99.

      Those are perfectly equivilent, interchangeable parts. There is no way the one purchased from Apple is any better than the one purchased from Ebuyer. And yet the Apple one is more than double the cost! How do you explain this? Apple don't even make the drive - it's just a perfectly ordinary PC component with a new sticker on it. The only possible way they could be charging so much is by screwing their customers over. I suspect this may be less about just making more profit than it is about trying not to cheapen their brand though.

    56. Re:Almost, Apple... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      The PC I picked for comparison didn't come with a monitor. Nor does the Mac Mini. Thus a fair comparison. To compare an iMac fairly, I'd have to compare it with a PC which intigrated all components into a monitor of equal resolution - and that would be hard to find. One thing I really do like about Apple is their continuing dedication to high-resolution displays at a time when every other PC manufacturer seems to think nine hundred vertical pixels is good enough.

    57. Re:Almost, Apple... by geogob · · Score: 1

      I'm not going to bother to look it up

      See, there's your problem. You're ignorant, you know it and you admittedly not interested to do anything about it.

    58. Re:Almost, Apple... by Pubstar · · Score: 0

      If only I had mod points... and I didnt post in this topic already.

    59. Re:Almost, Apple... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      Yes, the Mac Pro and its associated pieces are unnecessarily expensive. I already mentioned that. Apple also charge much more than the going rate for RAM.

    60. Re:Almost, Apple... by Rockoon · · Score: 0

      I guess it depends on what you look at. How many Dell, HP, Sony, etc. Laptops are there with a 17" 1920x1080 screen with 2.4GHz i7? I haven't seen too many. And the ones that they did have were in the $2k range, just like the 17" MacBook Pro.

      The 17" Macbook Pro is $2400 off of NewEgg ($2500 if you go through Apple) 2.4GHz i7, 4GB DDR3, 1GB GDDR5, 750GB HD, 17" 1920x1200

      A 17.3" MSI G-Series is $1200 off of NewEgg 2.3GHz i7, 8GB DDR3, 2GB GDDR5, 750GB HD, 17.3" 1920x1080

      While the specs are not exactly the same, come on.. The Macbook is *double* the fucking price... $1200 more!

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    61. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      After the first couple of months, the "refurb" section starts to populate and will have units at more logical prices wrt tech market progress. By the end of the cycle, the refurbs are ~20% off the list price, and are not necessarily returned items (I'm typing this on a 2008 refurb macbook which when it arrived appears to have never been used, and had a small physical defect on the corner of the case of about three or four small nicks.)

      I've sometimes wondered if they don't use the refurb market as one of their signals that it's time to start putting out new models.

    62. Re:Almost, Apple... by Rockoon · · Score: 0

      Apple fanboys have been claiming that Apple is pretty price competitive for many years now

      FTFY.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    63. Re:Almost, Apple... by Rockoon · · Score: 0

      At equal component level Apple fanboys claim that a PC is not less expensive than an the equivalent Apple.

      FTFY.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    64. Re:Almost, Apple... by Amarantine · · Score: 0

      A vibrator is sleek, metallic, vibrates, and can be shoved up your ass. That's completely different from an iPhone which is sleek, metallic, vibrates, and can be-

      Mother of god.

      I think you're holding it wrong.

    65. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I called it 'entry level' because it's the cheapest computer that Apple sell.

      Ok, let's try something else. How about something which owes nothing to Apple manufacturing like, say, a hard drive. One drive is much like another, really. Interchangeable, so long as the numbers match. So, how much does Apple charge for one of their drives with an Apple sticker on?

      http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MC730ZM/A?n=internal&fnode=MTY1NDA0Nw&s=topSellers
      £254, for a 7200 2TB 3.5". How much for a 7200 2TB 3.5" at ebuyer?
      http://www.ebuyer.com/319641-barracuda-2tb-sata-3-5in-7200rpm-64mb-6gb-s-in-st2000dm001
      £89.99.

      Those are perfectly equivilent, interchangeable parts.

      No, they are not. And either you know it, or worse, you are unable to ever understand why. Read the fucking description.

      BTW, a similar drive by HP is also cheaper than the Apple drive: by £2.03 - I wonder why you didn't pick that instead.http://www.ebuyer.com/280186-hp-2tb-sata-7200-hdd-we464aa

    66. Re:Almost, Apple... by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      I think you're holding it wrong.

      Ah, well, I tend to clench my left buttcheek more than my right one.

    67. Re:Almost, Apple... by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      The Macbook also comes with a very outdated video card last time I checked.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    68. Re:Almost, Apple... by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      You are defending the Mac by talking about the Dell's poor cooling? You're joking right?

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    69. Re:Almost, Apple... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      Why does it have to be mutually exclusive? Just because there have been cooling issues with some Mac designs? You'll note that I said that you could get well made Dell laptops too - they just cost more.

      There certainly have been some overheating issues with Apple laptops (almost exclusively related to Nvidia GPUs causing the whole thing to fail), but otherwise Apple's laptops have been pretty successful on that front. I know that the aluminium unibody ones can get quite hot and some people dislike that, but that's the design - the case forms part of the heatsink.

      My issue with the cheaper Dells, and an issue I've seen first hand on a friend's former laptop, is that the thermal design is right on the edge so that using it to play a game like Civ4 would cause it to shut down (as in, thermal cutout emergency powering off the machine fully). There is no way that the system should be able to get hot enough under maximum CPU+GPU load to cut out, and it happens because the design is already close to the limit with no room for error, so when the case flexes because it's plastic, the heatsink separates slightly from the chip and it becomes even less effective and the system overheats. The same problem arises if dust builds up on the heatsink fins, reducing airflow. Because it's already marginal, any blockage puts you in danger of thermal cutout so you have to ensure you blow the dust out frequently.

      My friend used to get around it by tabbing out of the game every 10 minutes or so to allow the system to cool down, otherwise it would simply shut off when the thermal limit was reached.

      Now, the Macbook Pro might get hot on the outside (uncomfortably so in some models) but it doesn't shut off because it overheats at 100% CPU and GPU use.

    70. Re:Almost, Apple... by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Many times, the thermal shutdown has nothing to do with the cooling design. I have never seen a laptop that bad, but generally, it is caused by the heatsink getting gummed up with dirt, hair, whatever. I have had this issue with Mac book pros as well, many times, they are ones that have been in service for a while, but when the unibody came out, it happened to nearly every one of them. I do deal with many Macs as the company I work for is addicted to them, I have seen at least one from each series, and it is a continual issue with Macs that they run hot. Laptops in many cases from all suppliers have been known to run hot though, it is a design problem. People want quiet, but to properly cool something in such a small case is very hard without high-speed loud fans.

      I have had, as well as supported laptops from HP, Dell, and Apple, and none have these problems as bad as the unibody laptops.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    71. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't buy unlabeled products. If you're ignorant and gullible enough to do so, I think you're the one with the problem.

    72. Re:Almost, Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Way to pick that out of context and pretend the important points don't exist. Shilling for Apple won't make them give you a discount, and you're only hurting yourself by worshiping their overpriced junk.

  4. 1977 was a seminal year by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

    Apple II released
    Commodore PET released
    TRS-80 (which became the #1 selling computer of the 70s)
    Atari VCS/2600 (#1 selling console of 1977-84)

    All ran on the same Commodore Semiconductor Group 6502 (or variant) processor.

    --
    My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    1. Re:1977 was a seminal year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The TRS-80 used the Zilog Z80.

    2. Re:1977 was a seminal year by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      Ooops. I should have known that (from the name).

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    3. Re:1977 was a seminal year by Crag · · Score: 2

      You mean MOS Technology 6502.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6502

    4. Re:1977 was a seminal year by vistic · · Score: 1

      Same thing.

    5. Re:1977 was a seminal year by narcc · · Score: 1

      Commodore owned MOS by that point. I don't know when they officially changed things to CSG, but the chips were stamped MOS for as long as I remember.

    6. Re:1977 was a seminal year by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      >>>You mean MOS Technology 6502.

      Commodore bought MOS in 1976, and it was renamed Commodore Semiconductor Group. That is why CEO Jack Tramel was able to undersell the competition at about half the cost. He gave the 6502s to himself for free within Commodore, while charging Atari and Apple regular price for their computer/disk drive CPUs.

      "Business is war" was his motto and he used every advantage to become the best-selling computer of all time (~20 million units). It's a shame that he died and almost nobody talked about his contributions as CEO of Commodore, Amiga, and later Atari (meanwhile they treated Jobs like the messiah of computing).

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
  5. Who knew? by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

    That Shelley Long and Jude Law lived together in the 1970s and had an Apple II in their kitchen? Even one of those magical ones that doesn't even need cables to work!

    --
    Mostly random stuff.
    1. Re:Who knew? by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      LOL! Glad to know I wasn't the only one that thought of that.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
  6. Re:ADB by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

    I am strangely reminded of the one-wire bus used for low-power sensing.

    The one-wire bus uses three wires.

    Why the name? Well, one is supposed to be optional power, but in practice you won't get more than one sensor on the bus without it. And the other is ground which, I assume, doesn't count for some reason.

  7. Man was an F'ing Genius by Nitewing98 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Woz WAS the SH*T back then. While I still love him, he's never been the same since the plane crash. God knows what he might have come up with to save the Apple II if he hadn't had the accident.

    --

    Nitewing '98

    Everything works...in theory.

    1. Re:Man was an F'ing Genius by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Wut?

  8. 6502 was awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I wrote a number of utilities for the Apple ][. One of which was a replacement garbage collection utility. The garbage collector in the Apple ROM would basically kick off when there was no more available memory and then "freeze" the machine for about 30 minutes while it dumped the garbage. I wrote one that could be run from the Ampersand &GC in Applesoft Basic. If your application used a lot of strings and reassigned those strings the heap would fill up really fast. My utility would run in seconds as opposed to the 30 minutes. I made about $1000 as a 16 year old kid selling this utility in Nibble magazine.

    One other comment. Woz was a genius, but his shortcut for color graphics was based on 7 lines. Each byte in the $C000 address space used a nibble encoding scheme to display color. $C000+$200 (I think would move to the next line 7 pixels down. This 7 byte math drove us developers nuts. To draw on the screen you would either use FP math (very slow) or you would pre-populate a look up byte table to know where in memory you should poke to get the right row to show up a color.

    I've not done assembly language since those days. It sure was fun and challenging though. Now everything is so bloated I rarely see tight efficient code anymore. I'm not suggesting that we go back to developing in assembly. I'm just pointing out that you were forced to be disciplined when you coded which made for more efficient code.

    1. Re:6502 was awesome! by IntlHarvester · · Score: 2

      Hey, I remember your garbage collector from Nibble magazine! Sorry, but I think pirated your utility.

      --
      Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
    2. Re:6502 was awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      You evil S.O.B. Gimme my $35.

    3. Re:6502 was awesome! by JeffElkins · · Score: 1

      mod up for humor :)

      (loved my Atari 800 & Franklin)

      --
      Why is all the good stuff already modded 5, when I have mod points?
    4. Re:6502 was awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And so thinks Linus... or so I understood.

      Having dealt with the three chips -- 6502, 8080/85 and Z80 -- it is MHO that the Z80 is the best one. In fact I find it was so good I almost despaired when I learned about what the 8086/88 would be.

      I wish Zilog had greater success, because they had an excellent processor.

    5. Re:6502 was awesome! by IntlHarvester · · Score: 2

      Post your contact info :)

      --
      Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
    6. Re:6502 was awesome! by Teeroy32 · · Score: 0

      your old zilog is still being used in controller devices, so its still kicking

      --
      I don't have an attitude problem, Its you that has a problem with my attitude
    7. Re:6502 was awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      No way. You pirate, you would probably sell my personal information :)

    8. Re:6502 was awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was also a z8000, but I never knew how it compared to the 8086/88. I know the z80 lacked some features needed to run Linux, though back then I didn't know about GNU. I remember trying QNX on a 386, I think (some time later).

      Let me explain why I think they would make a difference: the Z80 had an alternate full set of registers... that helped make some real fast assembly programs, if you wanted to deal with them directly. I somehow think the same principle would remain in use to this date. Actually, maybe it has, when we consider multicore CPUs.

    9. Re:6502 was awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      6502 is still used today in embedded systems. Many modem chipsets use it due to the 6502s extremely fast interrupt handling. So do some keychain LCD picture frames. It is also used in some handheld toys. ARM based microcontrollers are invading this space, however. (The ARM, btw, was designed using 6502 based Acorn computers and it is said that the design of the first ARM processor was influenced by the design of the 6502.)

    10. Re:6502 was awesome! by CityZen · · Score: 1

      I'd read somewhere that the Z8000 was one of the last "hardwired" CPUs (where complex operations are handled by dedicated logic); all others had switched over to micro-coding (where a simple base machine is implemented in logic gates, and then a ROM "microcode" table is used to implement complex operations), since it was much easier to implement. There was mention of various wiring bugs in the Z8000 that delayed it, and that even the final product still had some bugs.

  9. Reversion to mean? by sjbe · · Score: 2

    God knows what he might have come up with to save the Apple II if he hadn't had the accident.

    Possibly nothing. Yes he is a brilliant guy. But it is entirely possible that his (hypothetical) next act would have been a failure. Woz was the right guy in the right place at the right time. Maybe he would have continued to pump out brilliant products. Maybe not. It's quite possible he was forced to quit while he was ahead. I appreciate your optimism but his first act was a pretty hard act to follow and he hasn't really pumped out much technology of note since.

    1. Re:Reversion to mean? by dbc · · Score: 2

      Woz was/is good at the 'clever hack'. Getting something for nothing. As in the Apple II, where DRAM needs to be refreshed, and Video needs to read memory in a systematic pattern, so lets just make sure the video access read pattern satisfies the refresh requirement, and never have to worry about refresh after that. Also the color video by 'color artifacts' instead of adding an honest color sub-carrier to the video. Another thing I particularly liked about the Apple II is that a certain area of ROM space was set aside for every I/O slot, so installing new hardware and the driver was trivial. No crazy jumpers and interrupt routing, and no driver software to install. It astounds me to this day that when USB was specified, that a mechanism for downloading a driver in some kind of universal byte code that could be flash-compiled for any architecture wasn't specified -- that would have made USB as good as what we had in 1974, but no.

      On the other hand, Woz's software architectures were often a little bit simplistic, and that painted the Apple II into some uncomfortable corners. For instance, the I/O slot ROM software protocol was weird and limiting. Another instance is the floppy controller being squeezed down to such a small amount of hardware that the driver was full of software timing loops that forever doomed Apple II software to be locked into timing loops.

      And one trick he missed that could have been done cheaply... if the video vertical sync pulse had been made available someplace in the I/O space as a bit you could test, then it would have been trivial to know when you were in the vertical blanking interval so that you could flip video buffers cleanly.

    2. Re:Reversion to mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think there are no drivers in USB because they tried it with PCI. Here you can write BIOS images for different architectures including a generic fortran architecture. I think no company ever made a PCI device with that fortran option in the BIOS.

    3. Re:Reversion to mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There were USB memory sticks that pretended to be a CD-ROM with a mirror of the data on the memory stick in order to trick Windows into autorunning the contents, to circumvent the fact that Microsoft disabled autorun on non-read-only devices. Now autorun is being disabled completely on more and more computers, there are USB memory sticks popping up that pretend to be a keyboard and try to run their contents by pretending to be the user issuing a command to do so.
      This is the world we live in. Do you really want USB devices to be able to provide drivers?

    4. Re:Reversion to mean? by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

      Hindsight and all that.

      --
      Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
    5. Re:Reversion to mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IMHO, a binary object file should be an AST and native OS loaders should do the final stage of compiling as they load. On a modern machine AST binaries can be both smaller and loaded into memory faster than a native object file binary, as shown with Slim Binaries on the Oberon system. Such a system would naturally allow drivers to be paired with hardware since it would be system agnostic as long as the system followed a few simple rules.

    6. Re:Reversion to mean? by La+Gris · · Score: 2

      And one trick he missed that could have been done cheaply... if the video vertical sync pulse had been made available someplace in the I/O space as a bit you could test, then it would have been trivial to know when you were in the vertical blanking interval so that you could flip video buffers cleanly.

      $C019 ;RDVBL bit 7 Apple IIe IIgs Vertical Blanking
      $C041 ;RDVBLMSK bit 7 Apple //c Read VBL Interrupt

      --
      Léa Gris
    7. Re:Reversion to mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $C019 ;RDVBL bit 7 Apple IIe IIgs Vertical Blanking
      $C041 ;RDVBLMSK bit 7 Apple //c Read VBL Interrupt

      The Apple II (1977) is not the IIe (1983), IIgs (1986), or the IIc (1984). The Apple II did not have a memory mapped bit for the sync pulse. Don't move the goalpost.

    8. Re:Reversion to mean? by metaforest · · Score: 1

      And one trick he missed that could have been done cheaply... if the video vertical sync pulse had been made available someplace in the I/O space as a bit you could test, then it would have been trivial to know when you were in the vertical blanking interval so that you could flip video buffers cleanly.

      Actually there was a clean way to sync the video on the Apple II/II+. All you had to do is READ the $C0XX switch address. The read contained the most recent byte written to the video shift register due to a slight timing overlap between the 6502 read cycle and the video mux. This only appeared in the $C0XX space because the data lines were left undriven in that address space. (technically a read from any unused address block would work)

        Thus all you needed to do is watch for a unique sequence stored at the right end of the last line of the video display buffer. An easy way to make this unnoticeable was to leave the last line 0x00 black, and write a handful 0x80 black bytes at the end of the line. This trick could also be used to generate mixed mode graphic displays, and some neat looking demo tricks.

    9. Re:Reversion to mean? by CityZen · · Score: 1

      That only worked on the Apple II+ and successors. The games that did that would just lock up on my Apple II. On one game, I searched for that wait loop and NOPed it out. Of course, then it ran way too fast. I think I gave up at that point.

    10. Re:Reversion to mean? by metaforest · · Score: 1

      It did not work on the //e & later... but those machines had a VBLANK flag in $C0xx space. I'm surprised it did not work on the Apple II. The video multiplexer is nearly identical on the II and II+.

    11. Re:Reversion to mean? by robsku · · Score: 1

      Now autorun is being disabled completely on more and more computers, there are USB memory sticks popping up that pretend to be a keyboard and try to run their contents by pretending to be the user issuing a command to do so.
      This is the world we live in. Do you really want USB devices to be able to provide drivers?

      Really? I don't know how laws against malware work in other countries, but clearly the laws have astonishing fundamental flaws if in any country they allow ANY chance of not getting convicted for doing something like this. Also the programmers responsible for implementing this or similar systems (like Sony rootkit) should be convicted personally - to protect themselves they could do the programming but report about it to authorities with protection for anonymity. It's clear, when you do extraordinary stuff to circumvent protections of underlying system, that to claim you didn't understand what your doing has anything wrong in it would be laughable defense - and it should be obvious that I'm not talking about software made to jailbreak/circumvent protections with users approval, there is a difference when software does something else than what it says behind users back, let alone is hidden on device that gives no reason to expect it to run software. With autorun at least I could accept software that asks your permission before doing anything else, but a device pretending to be a keyboard trying to implement "autorun" when OS has it disabled as a security feature, well, how is it possible, with laws already written against malware, that implementing this kind of stuff could be considered anything but malicious software done intentionally?

      Also the penalty should not be next to nothing for a company nor people inside responsible for it, there should be correlation between assets and size of punishment.

      Anyway, could you provide links for information about this? I would be interested...

      --
      In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
    12. Re:Reversion to mean? by robsku · · Score: 1

      I forgot to mention, I had to borrow an old Nokia USB 3G "modem" from a friend once - when plugged in it first identified itself as flash drive with drivers for at least Windows and Linux and documentation for installing them. Even though everything else but documentation for switching it to another mode was obsolete for me (the linux drivers were for 2.4 kernel and 2.6 had drivers for it already) and the reguired configurations for Linux lacked everything else except ISP specific values to enter in pppd configs (it was old tech, one of the first 3G modems, and actual 3G, not 3/3.5G) I still thought that it was kinda cool - and since this can be implemented, yes, I would like it if USB devices could provide drivers for different systems like this.

      Obviously it can be done correctly but it's mostly not done correctly as it is not done at all - and obviously when rarely done with malicious implementation to circumvent autorun blocking there are idiots behind it, and if they go that far to implement something like this it has little to do with most companies not doing it at all - I doubt the rest would jump from not providing drivers to writing malware.

      --
      In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
  10. implement nonexistent 16 bit processor in software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's a rather extravagant way of saying fiddle with the carry every time you want to add two 16 bit numbers.

  11. Woz? by pbjones · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So are we seeing more Woz articles because he is moving back into the computer limelight, or are we just using him to fill a gap in the news?

    --
    There was an unknown error in the submission.
    1. Re:Woz? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The other Steve died. And Nolan Bushnell isn't doing anything of interest (yet). Nolan does talk a mean game tho, his googleplex speeches are great stuff.

    2. Re:Woz? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The other Steve died. And Nolan Bushnell isn't doing anything of interest (yet). Nolan does talk a mean game tho, his googleplex speeches are great stuff.

      Indeed, the reality distortion field is fading. Its influence from beyond the grave is limited.

  12. Re:implement nonexistent 16 bit processor in softw by ejasons · · Score: 1

    I think that he was referring to a complete interpreter for a 16-bit processor called sweet16, which resided with the integer BASIC interpreter in the original ROM.

    Sweet16 was pretty much never used, and its space (along with the builtin assembler) was reclaimed later when Applesoft BASIC came out.

  13. What font is the article set in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's remarkably similar to my choice for the desktop (Linux Biolinum). Anyone knows?

  14. What was old is new again by NoNickNameForMe · · Score: 1

    I ran into the problem of manipulating the 16 bit pointer data and its arithmetic in an 8 bit machine. My solution to this problem of handling 16 bit data, notably pointers, with an 8 bit microprocessor was to implement a nonexistent 16 bit processor in software, interpreter fashion

    Linux on AVR ATMega

  15. As an Apple II fan, I must remind folks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ...that not all was well-designed and pretty. For example, portions of graphics memory were also used for slot/peripheral I/O. These were called "screen holes" and greatly complicated every Apple II program that used those areas of memory -- there were literally tons of one-offs you had to write into your code, special cases depending on what peripherals were installed or used. This applied to both lo-res (GR) and high-res (HGR) modes. Here's an example (hope you can read 6502).

    I think since the days of the Apple II we've learned the importance of having a linear section of memory without a bunch of interleaved one-offs... or have we? x86 architecture is filled with crap like this (mainly the legacy stuff, not much present-day), but still. My point is that even though Woz was a genius/very clever and knew how to make the most out of what he had available, the aforementioned was a serious annoyance.

    1. Re:As an Apple II fan, I must remind folks... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      x86 architecture is filled with crap like this (mainly the legacy stuff, not much present-day)

      What makes you think this? There werent any one-offs of reserved absolutely addressed memory on the early PCs. Each peripheral had its own contiguous area of address space at the top of the address space, well above any actual installed ram (very high end systems had 720K, but even as much as 640K was rare) on a typical early PC. The lowest of these addresses was also the last major PC component to be introduced.. the VGA adapter mapped video memory to 0xA0000 (how about that, right at the 640K mark)

      The problem with the real mode architecture of the x86 was not where BIOS got mapped to.. it was the 20-bit addressing mode which required faking it with two 16-bit pointer, the segment pointer scaled to 16-byte boundaries, and an index pointer which only extended to 64K beyond the segment pointer.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
  16. I wish I could have afforded one by kriston · · Score: 1

    I wish I could have afforded one at the retail price of $666.66.
    Too rich for my blood back then.
    Still, I got to hack them eventually at school and summer camps, but that's not the same thing as actually owning one of those $666.66 masterpieces.
    Sigh.

    --

    Kriston

  17. Almost got it! by garote · · Score: 1

    The $C000 address space was used for softswitches. The areas you're thinking about are $2000-$3FFF and $4000-$4FFF, Hi-res pages 1 and 2 respectively.

    Each page held 192 scanlines of data, with each scanline described from left to right in a continuous line of 40 bytes. The upper left corner of the screen was described in the first byte ($2000 or $4000).

    So far, so good - but everything after that is madness.

    $2000 is the upper left corner, yes. But the next scanline down is located at $2400. The one after that at $2800. And so on, through eight scanlines, with the eighth at $3C00, until the ninth which begins back at $2080. Then the routine of adding $400 each time goes for another 8 scanlines, until the 17th starts at $2100.

    And it gets even worse. And don't even get me started on the whole "8th bit of every byte swaps the palette for the other 7 bits" thing...

    1. Re:Almost got it! by CityZen · · Score: 1

      Well, the original Apple II, as described in the article, had only 4 colors for hires graphics (the 8th bit was unused). Woz published a later article in Byte describing a circuit modification for the Apple II that could increase the palette to 6 colors by utilizing the 8th bit (to implement a half-bit shift for the given byte's pixels). This was later incorporated into the Apple II+ and its successors. I did that modification on my Apple II, though my handiwork wasn't the greatest, and it led to a bit of instability until I redid it later on. (And yes, we can all moan about the whole colors vs. resolution issue...)

      Going back to the topic of the address mapping to screen coordinates, Woz mentioned in some interview that he saved a couple of IC's by doing it his way, but also if he'd known how successful the machine was going to be, he'd have put in those two IC's in order to have a straightforward mapping.

  18. So much engineering goodness, so very non-Apple by Sarusa · · Score: 2

    Engineering is optimally solving problems given your constraints, and in that sense the Apple ][ is an engineering master course.

    I remember reading the available docs and being completely bowled over by two things: The video display doing the DRAM refresh for free and the workings of the Disk ][ encoding. It was mostly software driving very basic hardware, which was way ahead of its time. DOS 3.2 was kind of ugly, but since it was mostly software, he could upgrade it, and DOS 3.3 was a major improvement! It's hard now to appreciate how revolutionary this was at the time.

    Even Woz could make mistakes - his sector interleaving wasn't optimal. In the time it took to process a sector, the next one was already past, so each sector took an entire rotation of the disk. But it was software, so various alternate DOSes just added one to the sector interleave, so instead of sector 1 2 3 4 5 you had sector 1 8 2 9 3 9 and you could copy the entire damn disk in 19 seconds. At least an order of magnitude better than the pokey C64 drive which used the hardware uber alles model.

    But his engineering prowess doesn't really work for Apple's current positioning. He's unabashedly pro-consumer and pro-tech, where Apple is (wisely) in the business of providing devices that do a fantastic job of hiding the tech as much as possible, since Grandma or arts majors don't care what the hell the tech is as long as it works like they expect.

    And his charming naivete doesn't really work with a big corporate environment, which is why Jobs was able to cheat him out of so much of the money they got.

    1. Re:So much engineering goodness, so very non-Apple by Zaphod-AVA · · Score: 1

      I don't think charming naivete follows from the attitude of "Man, I have enough money. I'm going to do other things now."

    2. Re:So much engineering goodness, so very non-Apple by Sarusa · · Score: 1

      There was something else I wanted to mention here - there are no sensors in the drive other than for the write protect notch.

      How do you know where the read/write arm is? You don't! You just slam it back to home from wherever it is by moving it long enough (which causes the grinding noise when it hits the physical stop). Then you assume you're at zero and move from there. How do you know where sector zero is on the track? You don't! You just read till you see it encoded in the header. Similarly, you don't care when you write, you just start writing wherever you are (and write the entire track).

      Of course instead of moving from track 1 to track 2, you could be tricky and only move a quarter or half track, which is what a lot of copy protection schemes did, or there was even the dreaded spiral track where you just kept moving outwards after writing each quarter track.

      The only way to tell what was really going on (and how I copied/cracked a lot of games back then) was to open the drive up, move to track 5, then draw a little line and '5' on the white plastic movement wheel with sharpie. Repeat out to track 23 or 24. Then you can put in a new game and see 'aha, tracks 0-4 are normal, but then it hops to 5 and a half.' Or 'oh crap, it just spirals all the way out. this is gonna be tough.'

  19. Price whats interesting to note by xmorg · · Score: 1

    IS that the entry level ipad is still around 700$

    1. Re:Price whats interesting to note by CityZen · · Score: 1

      What store are you looking at? You can get an entry-level iPad 2 for $399, or a "new" iPad for $499.

  20. 16 bit pointer manipulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm really puzzled by this comment from WOz

    "'While writing Apple BASIC, I ran into the problem of manipulating the 16 bit pointer data and its arithmetic in an 8 bit machine. My solution to this problem of handling 16 bit data, notably pointers, with an 8 bit microprocessor was to implement a nonexistent 16 bit processor in software, interpreter fashion.'"

    16 bit pointer manipulation on a 6502 was trivial. You had to do it if you wrote games (I did, for C64/C16/Atari 400, Acorn Electron/etc). It was a couple of instructions, and actually quite fast if you counted the instruction cycle count (which you could back then - 6502 was a stricly in-order execution chip). The idea of doing what Woz says he did is just ridiculous and startlingly inept solution to the problem.

    He may have been a good hardware engineer but his software solution to this problem is abysmal.

    As for the other comments about pricing: Apple have always been overpriced compared to the competition. Once the C64 was on the market you could have a better computer with better sound, better graphics, sprites, memory etc, etc for a fraction of the cost. The "because we can" comment in a previous post is correct - that is the attitude they had back then and I suspect its the attitude they have now.

    And of course, Apple sued the living daylights out of anyone they didn't like. Just like now. Nothing has changed. For a man that claimed he wasn't focused on money (Jobs) Apple has been extraordinary aggressive pricing wise it's entire life.

    1. Re:16 bit pointer manipulation by mzs · · Score: 1

      You answered the real reason why maybe, it was a couple of instructions. In SWEET-16 it was one. Storage was expensive then. I think that must have been the real reason.