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Bioethicist Jonathan Moreno Talks Jacked-In Soldiers And Military Neuroscience

pigrabbitbear writes "Who's driving a lot of neuro research? The military. Much of it is health related, like figuring out how to make prosthetics work more seamlessly and helping diagnose brain injuries. But the military's involvement highlights the basic ethical quandary of neurological development: When our brains pretty much define who we are, what happens when you start adding tech in there? And what happens when you take it away? Jonathan Moreno is quite possibly the top bioethicist in the country, and along with Michael Tennison, recently penned a fascinating essay on the role and ethics of using neuroscience for national security. He also recently updated his book Mind Wars, a seminal look into the military's work with the brain. In this interview he discusses brain implants, drones, and what will happen when military tech hits the civilian world."

39 of 117 comments (clear)

  1. We alter our brains all the time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Caffeine affects our brain in a non-trivial way. If we're hungry, we behave differently. So food affects our brain in a non-trivial way. How is ingesting caffeine and food different than adding hardware to our brain?

    1. Re:We alter our brains all the time by captainpanic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How is ingesting caffeine and food different than adding hardware to our brain?

      It isn't.
      And that's why most countries have institutes where doctors determine what's safe and what's not and also what's legal and what's not. Some drugs alter your mind so much that we think we'd better make them illegal. And some things are innocent enough, or even considered a stimulant, so we allow them.

      I would hope that "hardware for our brain" would be treated with the same medical methods as any medicine, food product or beverage.

    2. Re:We alter our brains all the time by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's quite a bit harder to hack into food and control you. It's also a lot easier to revert to your previous state...just change diet.

      We're talking caffeine here - there is no 'just change' anything.

      Without caffeine, life would not be possible.

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    3. Re:We alter our brains all the time by durrr · · Score: 3, Funny

      Some drugs are fun, that's why we make them illegal.

    4. Re:We alter our brains all the time by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 2

      We ban what some faction of the gov't or interest group can convince the public should be banned. There was a push in the 50s to ban rock and roll, but the lack of public support killed that idea.

      --
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    5. Re:We alter our brains all the time by pushing-robot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's also funny that we spend the first 2-3 decades of life being trained and educated in a deliberate attempt to modify our brains...to the point that any parent who wants their child to exist in a "natural" human state would be sent to prison for child abuse. We pride ourselves on being "civilized", and redefine "human" to mean denying our biological nature. Society is founded on that principle, and while as a people we try to modify ourselves to become more intelligent and compassionate, education-turned-indoctrination can also make us into monsters, and even the most liberal societies train us to accept certain injustices.

      So when they say technology can change who we are, I suggest that we have been excelling at changing who we are for thousands of years. Whether a particular technique is "good" or "bad" in a moral sense depends on whether it stirs or stunts our capacity for empathy, and whether it encourages us to grow and diversify or enforces a rigid set of behavior.

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    6. Re:We alter our brains all the time by shiftless · · Score: 2

      And that's why most countries have institutes where doctors determine what's safe and what's not and also what's legal and what's not. Some drugs alter your mind so much that we think we'd better make them illegal. And some things are innocent enough, or even considered a stimulant, so we allow them.

      Cute. Did you learn that in school?

      I love how everything fits into neat, precise little categories in your world... too bad the real world is about 1000x more fucked up and crazy than your little bubble.

      I would hope that "hardware for our brain" would be treated with the same medical methods as any medicine, food product or beverage.

      That's a scary thought indeed.

    7. Re:We alter our brains all the time by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 2

      The caffeine extends life. The caffeine expands consciousness. The caffeine is vital to space travel.

      The caffeine must flow!

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  2. What will happen??? by madhatter256 · · Score: 2

    Oh, I don't know... watch:

    Soldiers
    Surrogates
    Star Trek: First Contact (imo best modern ST film)
    Ghost in the Shell

    and any other sci-fi flick

    --
    Previewing comments are for sissies!
    1. Re:What will happen??? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      "Surrogates"

      Better yet, don't. The sheer stupidity of that film and the massive cop-out at the ending can send me into a twenty minute fit of nerd-rage. The writers took a good premise, but rather than go into any real consideration of the complicated field of bioethics they just chickened out with something cliche but utterly unfounded.

    2. Re:What will happen??? by oldsailor432 · · Score: 2

      or Joe Haldeman - Forever Peace

    3. Re:What will happen??? by GrpA · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Anthropomorphic Vehicle Control (AVC) -

      When the driver *becomes* the vehicle... See's through the vehicles cameras and feels and controls the vehicle like it's their own body.

      Currently under development, but you can get an idea what it's like from this book:
      http://www.amazon.com/Turing-Evolved-ebook/dp/B007GTWLDW/ref=zg_tr_158595011_4

      It talks about other vehicles ( aircraft, ground, water etc ) but mostly about DEMONs - Direct Engagement Military Offensive Neurosuit.

      That's pretty much where I think it's headed - the book is free at the moment, BTW. Other formats: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/34627

      GrpA

      --
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    4. Re:What will happen??? by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 2

      I'd add Joss Whedon's Dollhouse. Once you get past the "vehicle for pretty actors" element it's a very insightful, well thought out and reasonably comprehensive look at what can happen if we're able to store and reprogram brains, from leisure applications to espionage, medical and military uses.

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    5. Re:What will happen??? by idontgno · · Score: 2

      How about "read"?

      "Dogfight" by Swanwick and Gibson. You think the VA's problems are bad now, wait until they have to deal with the ruined shells of combat-enhanced-and-then-demilitarized neurologically damaged veterans. As bad as PTSD and TBI are now, just think of how much worse it will be when most combat veterans have their nervous systems and mental health irretrievably ruined with battle drugs and combat-oriented conditioning and (maybe) implants.

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  3. "top bioethicist "? by jbmartin6 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What sort of selection process is used to determine who is the 'top' bioethicist? Anyone at all can consider the ethical implications of brain implants.

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    1. Re:"top bioethicist "? by beowulfcluster · · Score: 3, Funny

      He's the guy with the highest karma on the bioethicist equivalent of Slashdot.

    2. Re:"top bioethicist "? by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Funny

      We put all candidates in a sealed arena, each one with a fully equipped lab. Labs are only connected by the air they breathe.

      The last one standing becomes the new top bioethicist.

      It's not very fair, but nobody wants to argue with the top bioethicist.

    3. Re:"top bioethicist "? by Mikkeles · · Score: 2

      He got top honours when graduating from Bob's School of Bioethics and Croissant Making.

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    4. Re:"top bioethicist "? by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Funny

      Operating Thetan level? Hmm, does a bioethicist use arcane or divine spellcasting levels?

      Not a serious question, of course: if your self appointed job title is "bioethicist", then your self appointed job is to tell people what's right and what's wrong, and that's obviously a priest class.

      Do we have any kings left that we can strangle with his entrails?

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    5. Re:"top bioethicist "? by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 3, Funny

      They tried that with physicists, but they could only get it to work for spherical physicists in a vacuum.

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  4. Wireless thought by DigiShaman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    While telekinesis doesn't exist in the real world, I wonder if an implant or headband could transmit core emotional responses to the rest of your platoon via wireless link. That is to say, you wouldn't be able to transmit exact words but rather basic core primitive thoughts and emotions. If one of your members are in danger or senses a major problem, everyone could be aware of the situation simultaneously without a single word spoken on the battlefield.

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    1. Re:Wireless thought by slimjim8094 · · Score: 2

      Tele = remote
      Kinesis = movement

      You probably mean telepathy.

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    2. Re:Wireless thought by Thanshin · · Score: 3, Funny

      Tele = remote
      Kinesis = movement

      You probably mean telepathy.

      Tele = remote
      Pathos = experience

      You probably mean teletubby.

    3. Re:Wireless thought by perpenso · · Score: 2

      And if one of your team members is suffering from PTSD or just freaks out?

      Actually a live connection to your team members may help. You can be reassured when the stress is just beginning, talking it out is a known way reduce stress, the team is aware - no suffering is silence making it worse, the team is aware - the soldier can be removed from the battlefield pre-freakout, etc.

  5. I'm not surprised by Zandamesh · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As it is now, the greatest tool(weapon) we have lies between our ears, more powerful than the fastest jets and the biggest bombs, and anything that improves it to perform certain tasks better is an option. So genetic manipulation, chips in brains, anything. Because if you don't, then someone else will and then you lose.

    I'm guessing most of this is done in secrecy to prevent public outcries.

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  6. Re:Killing people for money by Troyusrex · · Score: 2

    It's not so much "ways of killing people" as it is "ways of making sure no one else can wantonly kill or subjugate you".

  7. Re:Novel Idea by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

    How about just ending all wars? Then we won't need prosthesis for soldiers. Plus you can give me back some of my tax money spent on war welfare.

    Now you're talking real changes in human brain development and activity. Like at lobotomy levels. Unfortunately, conflict seems to be pretty hard wired into the human brain.

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  8. Re:Cyberpsychosis by nedlohs · · Score: 3, Funny

    Because psychosis is a common side effect with hip replacements these days.

    It's a game mechanic, and a pretty bad one at that, to try and prevent players from getting every cybernetic enhancement available. Not a comment on reality.

  9. Don't know what people are complaining about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I got this brain implant from the government and I feel fine. In fact, I feel better than fine. When I watch sitcoms, sports, and reality shows--it's bliss.

  10. Re:Cyberpsychosis by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Elizabeth Moon, author of an extensive corpus of Science Fiction, opines for the BBC: "If I were empress of the Universe I would insist on every individual having a unique ID permanently attached -- a barcode if you will; an implanted chip to provide an easy, fast inexpensive way to identify individuals. It would be imprinted on everyone at birth. Point the scanner at someone and there it is. ... In war soldiers could easily differentiate legitimate targets in a population from non combatants... Anonymity would be impossible as would mistaken identity making it easier to place responsibility accurately, not only in war but also in non-combat situations far from the war."
    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120522-barcode-everyone-at-birth

    --
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  11. Novel concepts by MadKeithV · · Score: 3, Funny

    From now on, if you want to start a war on a developed country, you should do it on a Tuesday. That's the day the soldiers are down for their Windows Updates.

  12. Re:Cyberpsychosis by Sechr+Nibw · · Score: 2

    Weird. You must read the same tech news site that I do!
    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/05/23/0156226/sci-fi-writer-elizabeth-moon-believes-everyone-should-be-chipped
    Also, in case someone hadn't read that story yet, and is outraged at Elizabeth Moon's comment, they were asked for controversial sound bytes. She just happened to give one that was publicized, and criticized.
    http://e-moon60.livejournal.com/442811.html

  13. Re:Cyberpsychosis by 1s44c · · Score: 2

    The idea was that, at some point and after enough mods, you become distanced from your own humanness and humanity itself; at what point do you become a cyborg and no longer human?

    A single functional implant makes you a cyborg as long as that implant has some synthetic electrical component.

  14. Re:Cyberpsychosis by KhabaLox · · Score: 2

    And knowing one's SSN allows you to divine their guilt or innocence, or whether their a combatant or civilian.

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  15. Re:Cyberpsychosis by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 2

    Your humanity is greater than just he lump of meat that we're residing in. If I was able to make an AI that reacted the same way as I would, wouldn't that have the same humanity as me? I would say yes, and that's got no meaty bits. Let's say my heart fails and I get a stainless steel / titanium impeller implanted. Would that make me a heartless robot? Look for the "your excuse is invalid" kid -- he's got metal legs and a smile that would melt stone.

    Now, I'm already part titanium so this may be the metal bits talking, but what your body does and is capable of does not reflect on what your mind and persona are and are capable of.

    "Humans: Self-forged, picking up where the Gods left off."

    --

    ---
    ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
  16. load of crap by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 2

    Building an EMP rifle is trivial technology. Hardening against EMP is not as easy - if you build a shield, you just use a bigger pulse that over comes the shield. A friend of mine who was in the army for many years said "Look, between a Map and a GPS? I'll take the map. Shoot a map with a bullet - whaddya got? A map with a hole in it. Shoot a GPS and waddya got? Useless Junk." It all scales from there. The "high / robotic / tech" battlefield is just some circle jerk fantasy by beltway bandits looking for a way to strip mine more money out of the Treasury Dept.

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  17. Re:Cyberpsychosis by TheLink · · Score: 2

    She's pretty stupid if she thinks sane people on the battlefield will want to have a "I'm here, shoot me" tag.

    If you can ID a person from far away without their cooperation you can usually detect that person from even further away.

    Whereas if you have to be next to someone to ID him, either/both of you are dead/neutralized already if he is an enemy.

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  18. Re:Cyberpsychosis by Jeng · · Score: 2

    I would imagine that the military would have a means of turning it off, while civilians could not.

    So if you see someone in civvies who's chip isn't working, he probably ain't a civilian.

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  19. Re:WAKEUP the drug is in the water by Hillgiant · · Score: 2

    Yes, but. Do you know what the QUEERS are doing to the SOIL?!?

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