Free Desktop Software Development Dead In Windows 8

benfrog writes "Microsoft has decided to restrict Visual Studio 11 Express, the free-to-use version of its integrated development environment, to producing only Metro-style applications. Those who would like to produce conventional desktop applications or command line -based applications are stuck with Visual Studio 2010 or buying the full version. Microsoft announced the Visual Studio 11 lineup last week."

Comments

Wait, what now?

[CAKAS]

Visual Studio is hardly the only development IDE on Windows. Yes, it is good, but you cannot really say that "free desktop software development dead in Windows 8" just because gasp, MS wants you to buy the new version. Hell, they even still offer Visual Studio 2010 for free!

So if you are crying about this, what about coming up with those open source IDE's?? I understand that they have never matched Visual Studio, but seriously. I even buy good web development IDE's to my OS X, like Coda 2. Stop being a cheap-ass winer and pay for quality tools.

You know what this story actually tells? That even FOSS users don't like their IDE's. They want to use Visual Studio from Microsoft because frankly, it is much better than the open source alternatives.

Visual Studio 11 is an improvement in many ways over Visual Studio 2010. Its C++ compiler, for example, is a great deal more standards-compliant, especially with the new C++ 11 specification. It has powerful new optimization features, such as the ability to automatically use CPU features like SSE2 to accelerate mathematically intensive programs, and new language features to allow programs to be executed on the GPU. The new version of the C# language makes it easier to write programs that do their work on background threads and avoid making user interfaces unresponsive. The .NET Framework, updated to version 4.5, includes new capabilities for desktop applications, such as a ribbon control for Microsoft's WPF GUI framework.

Taken together, there are many new features in Visual Studio 11 that are relevant, interesting, and useful for desktop developers. Indeed, things like the new WPF capabilities are only useful for desktop developers.

If Microsoft is so bad then why the hell there isn't better open source versions of these things??

Re:Wait, what now?

[Anonymous Coward]

They're not better, they just have all the swanky advertising.

Haven't you see the hot girls giving away free Microsoft stuff at conventions...Stallman just can't compete with that, even if you're into it.

Which you're not. Don't even try to kid us. You aren't.

Re:Wait, what now?

[King InuYasha]

Windows 8 WDK won't include one. Neither will the Windows 8 SDK.

Re:Wait, what now?

[JDG1980]

Visual Studio is hardly the only development IDE on Windows.

What open-source C/C++ compilers for Windows support the full range of APIs? Last I checked, MinGW had no support for Direct2D and DirectWrite, which are hardly obscure or brand-new. And MinGW also does not support structured exception handling.

Re:Wait, what now?

[CAKAS]

MSDN documentation is free to access to everyone. There are also tons of programming books to learn coding from. They are all better than just learning from documentation.

Borland isn't gone either - They're CodeGear now.

Re:Wait, what now?

[NoNonAlphaCharsHere]

If Microsoft is so bad then why the hell there isn't better open source versions of these things??

Because Microsoft controls the APIs and can release new versions of Visual Studio simultaneously with the new releases of Windows? Because anybody who wants to do an open IDE for Windows has to wade through the craptastic Microsoft documentation to be a year behind the curve, right about time for the next set of API changes?

Re:Wait, what now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Too many windows fanboys/paid flacs have Slashdot accounts these days and mod anything that has legit criticism of MS products down...I've been watching this happen for the past little while here...and I would not be suprised if many of the IP address of those moding down post that are critical of MS come from Microsoft campuses or those employed by MS.

Not quite; note the time of the article and the time of the first post. Yes, even beating out the first post trolls. Here, let me repeat that just to make sure it doesn't get lost in other sentences:

That post beat out the first post trolls.

We've had an infestation of not-at-all-subtle paid Microsoft shills with ready-made posts like that in here for a while, desperate to astroturf wherever they can. The mods are going to downvote them to oblivion, simple as that. It's just that there's no "-1 Spam" or "-1 Shill" mod, so "-1 Troll" is the closest we've got.

Re:Wait, what now?

[JoeMerchant]

what about coming up with those open source IDE's?? I understand that they have never matched Visual Studio...

You know what this story actually tells? That even FOSS users don't like their IDE's. They want to use Visual Studio from Microsoft because frankly, it is much better than the open source alternatives.

...

If Microsoft is so bad then why the hell there isn't better open source versions of these things??

I have recently migrated off of Visual Studio, onto Qt Creator because Creator has matured to be clearly better than Studio.

Everyone has their own needs and preferences, I have copies of Studio, Eclipse and Creator on all of my machines at work and home - Eclipse is a necessary evil for some targets, but for the desktop, I was using Studio because it was the better environment - until the last six months or so.

Re:Wait, what now?

[Sc4Freak]

The Windows SDK won't ship with MSVC, but Visual Studio Express 11 still does. Visual Studio Express 11 still includes the full compiler toolkits and you're free to use those however you want as you could with the Windows SDK. But the IDE itself will only support creation of Metro-style projects.

Re:Wait, what now?

[causality]

And is there any actual reason for why you would not pay for Visual Studio?

You know that among modern OSes, Windows is unusual in that it doesn't come with a compiler as a standard feature.

You don't have any actual point apart from "I don't want to pay for the tools I use to get money".

If there's one thing Microsoft is smart about, it's that they try to please developers. People developing software that runs on Windows is good for Microsoft. It gives others a reason to want to use Windows. How many people are unable to fully switch to Linux (but would like to) because some software they must use is Windows-only?

This decision by Microsoft means that, up until now, Microsoft has considered such effects to be valuable enough to justify giving away Visual Studio. Now they are asking for money in addition to this effect. Complaining and trying to convince Microsoft to change their minds is standard haggling.

Besides which, not everyone who programs on Windows is selling the software they produce. Some of them are developing FOSS. They would naturally be more reluctant to pay than someone who is actually engaged in a commercial use and considers it a cost of doing business.

What part of this is so absurd to you?

Re:Wait, what now?

[shutdown -p now]

VS Express does, though. While it doesn't come with project templates with desktop apps, nor the header files for Win32 stuff, the compiler is the real deal. So you could, in theory, take VS Express compiler and combine it with headers and libs from WinSDK, to get a complete command-line tool chain.

Or you could just install Qt SDK, which includes MinGW, Qt Creator, and Qt itself. All working out of the box with zero hassle.

(I never thought the day would come when I'd have to recommend QC over VS on Windows...)

Re:Wait, what now?

[shutdown -p now]

And is there any actual reason for why you would not pay for Visual Studio?

Maybe the fact that the price starts with $500?

And it wasn't such a big deal, say, ten years ago, but now, when Xcode and Qt Creator and Eclipse are all free? Even if they aren't as good, that's still a hefty price to account for.

Re:Wait, what now?

[shutdown -p now]

You know that among modern OSes, Windows is unusual in that it doesn't come with a compiler as a standard feature.

It's not quite so - it does come with compilers, just not with a C++ compiler. It does come with .NET (since Vista), and .NET runtime includes both C# and VB compilers, for the sake of runtime codegen (System.CodeDom).

Re:Wait, what now?

[peppepz]

You know what this story actually tells?

1) That you haven't read the article. Not only is Microsoft dropping the free edition of Visual Studio, they're also dropping the compiler from Windows SDK, therefore forcing you to buy the paid version of Visual Studio or, some people are suggesting here, rip the compiler out of the "free" Metro version of Visual Studio (I'm assuming that they found some guarantee by Microsoft that they will always make this hack possible both technically and legally).
2) That you haven't ever used an open source IDE, as there are some which are perfectly competitive with Visual Studio (Netbeans, QT creator).

Re:Wait, what now?

[Miamicanes]

Windows developers have almost the exact same problem as Android developers. There's exactly one officially-blessed IDE, and just about every book, blog, howto, and forum post assumes you're using it.

NBandroid is a noble project that many people work hard maintaining. Unfortunately, it gets zero love from Google, and as a result, support for the latest and greatest Android SDK tends to arrive about a month or two after one of its developers gets a new phone that uses it. Like Eclipse, it has some bugs. Truthfully, most of them are minor... IF you've completely mastered Netbeans, Eclipse, Android development, and the use of build scripts. Otherwise, it'll probably stop you dead in your tracks, with little hope of moving forward any time soon unless you throw in the towel, move everything over to Eclipse, and hope that the situation improves for your next Android project.

The story with Windows is more or less the same. If you have a problem building a C# program under VS10, you can find four hundred resources online to help troubleshoot it in 18 seconds with Google. Have a similar problem with something like SharpDevelop, Eclipse, Netbeans, or another non-VS IDE, and you'll probably be looking for the answer for quite a while.

It's even worse if your native language isn't English. Visual Studio is so pervasive worldwide, even people who speak regional languages can find abundant help in their own language. There might even be one or more entire BOOKS about Visual Studio in it. Deviate from Microsoft's chosen path, and you'd better be fluent in English. OK, I'm exaggerating a little... lots of the independent IDEs are written by authors in non-English-speaking countries, and provide support in their own language as well.

At one time, I would have been optimistic and said that Microsoft's future lack of free support might encourage more progress with free alternatives. Three years of Android development have disillusioned me. NBandroid has come a long way and made enormous amounts of progress, but thanks to Google's total contempt for Netbeans, it still ends up holding *me* back whenever I try using it, and there's no way in hell I could recommend it to somebody who's learning Android programming for the first time. And we're talking about a Java development ecosystem that has historically had only TWO viable free IDEs, both of which were widely viewed as the two best IDEs available, period. Compare that to Windows, where NONE of the alternatives has market share that would count as "sloppy seconds" compared to the overwhelming dominance of Visual Studio, and all of which have real drawbacks and disadvantages compared to Visual Studio.

At the end of the day, Visual Studio is kind of like a 97 year old benevolent dictator of a prosperous country who's been ruling since he was a teenager -- people might have complaints, especially if he starts getting senile in his old age... but he's been the only government anybody in that country has ever known, and not even his fiercest opponents can really see themselves taking his place, because over the past 80-odd years, he's basically become synonymous with the country, its government, and the cultural identity of the people who live there. With the possible exception of Commodore 64 BASIC, it's hard to think of any development environment that's been more dominant and pervasive within its platform than Visual Studio within its platform and era.

Re:Wait, what now?

[peppepz]

People here are "crying" because Microsoft has stopped providing an official way for building native Windows applications without paying money. This is the news. The fact that there might be alternate development environments (which will always lag behind the official ones, even if you pay 1E+9 $ for them) or that you could hack your way into compiling a native application by extracting some compiler binary from some other Microsoft product (legally?) is completely secondary. What we are discussing here is this clear decision from Microsoft, whether you see it as a "fault" or not.

Re:Wait, what now?

[larry bagina]

You know that among modern OSes, Windows is unusual in that it doesn't come with a compiler as a standard feature.

The 4 most popular operating systems are: Windows, OS X, Android, and iOS. None of them come with a compiler as a standard feature.

Re:Wait, what now?

[Macthorpe]

The reason there's no "-1 Shill" mod is because there is absolutely no proof that these are paid posts, and it wouldn't matter if they were or not.This could just as easily be someone with a personal agenda, or a troll who loves reading reams of "you got paid to write that waaaaa" posts that inevitably follow a swiftly written, pro-Microsoft post. And yes, there is a "-1 Spam". If you think the point has been made too many times before, use "-1 Redundant".

What you're really asking for, is "-1 Inconvenient to my View of the World", which is not going to happen. I suggest people, including you, stick to answering the posts for their content and not for their source. In the end, it doesn't matter if they're paid for or not - if the post is inaccurate, refute it. If you disagree, argue. Don't, however, cry about that fact that a post you don't like ended up higher than yours. It doesn't come across as reasonable discussion, it comes across as complaining for the sake of it.

Re:Wait, what now?

[peppepz]

It's not a problem for me at all. I've never bought Visual Studio (although I did use VS .NET under the MSAA program), and I would never use the crippled free versions of VS that MS concede me when I can use the excellent tools that are available to me as free software.

It could be a problem for those who believed that Microsoft and open source could be conjugated together, but this is another question.

Here it's not a matter of money, it's a matter of openness. The deprecation of Win32, the arrival of the Windows store, the bootloader lockdown, now the deprecation of the Windows SDK - the direction that Windows is taking is clear (and it converges towards the same trail that Apple are following with OSX and iOS - but at least they still give a full development kit with their OS).

Re:Wait, what now?

[donaldm]

Don't forget that Nokia owns Qt (and Qt creator, etc), and they are now basically beholden to Microsoft. It is currently is a semi-symbiotic relationship, but there is plenty of past evidence to suggest that Nokia will eventually be forced to bend their knee to Microsoft.

True, however from the web site.

Qt Creator is available under GPL v3, LGPL v2 and a commercial license. i am quite sure even Microsoft would have a difficult time of forcing Nokia to stop making Qt freely available since the GPL does have teeth if the occasion arrises.

Re:Wait, what now?

[PurpleAlien]

It's actually not just a matter of the IDE alone. For me it's the combination of the IDE and Qt itself. People often forget Qt is not just a GUI toolkit - it provides a wealth of classes to implement really nice integrated applications.

Let me give one example to clarify this: suppose you want to write an application which needs to interact with web content, say, a map (Google Maps or OpenStreetMaps for instance). You want GUI controls on the C++ side which interact with markers on the map, you want to interact with the JavaScript in the map from your C++ code and pass data back and forth (like this: http://www.purplealienplanet.com/node/24). You want to integrate web content in your desktop application - It's all there.

Same if you want to use video, xml, link with a (embedded) database like SQlite, use GL content, use web services, gestures, (and many more: http://doc-snapshot.qt-project.org/4.8/classes.html), QtQuick for certain user interface (here: http://doc-snapshot.qt-project.org/4.8/qtquick.html), the signal/slot paradigm, the excellent documentation, etc. it's all there without having to go look for third pary libraries - plus it's all cross platform. You can take the same code, compile on Windows and move to Linux or Mac and it usually is just a matter of importing the project into Creator on the target platform and recompile it. All this is just fun to do with QtCreator because it is so well integrated and QtCreator is fine tuned for this.

When looking purely at the IDE, I guess both have their advantages and disadvantages - but the ease and speed with which Qt and Creator allow for the development of cross platform applications and the overall speed of Creator make it come out ahead of VS.

Re:Wait, what now?

[kthreadd]

Actually, Apple stopped shipping GCC a long time ago. /usr/bin/gcc is just a compatibility-wrapper on top of LLVM which translates command line options for GCC to the equivalents in LLVM.

Re:Wait, what now?

[rb12345]

Apparently, the SDK has always had a basic compiler included.

As for alternatives, that's probably what will happen; people without MSDN access will just use GCC or Clang instead. However, given that the open source alternatives are far better supported under Linux or OS X, why write software for Windows? We're more likely to get new software projects targeting Linux, OS X or the mobile equivalents (Android/iOS) and ignoring Windows entirely. Alternatively, we get more web apps hosted on Linux servers that do not care about the type of client used. Either way, Microsoft and Windows users end up losing out on native software.

Pfeh...

[Svartalf]

It's worth noting that there's enough toolchains that are perfectly capable of producing desktop applications in that are Free (in both senses) that're capable of producing quality results.

Quite simply, if they're willing to cut their own throats in this space this way...let 'em.

Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO?

[Taco Cowboy]

When I read Forbes naming Ballmer one of the 5 worst CEO, I had some doubt

After reading TFA, the doubt is gone

Indeed, Ballmer is utterly clueless on how to run Microsoft !

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO?

[Anonymous Coward]

Give them time to react to developer response. Who knows, maybe they'll end up following the Windows Phone model and pay people to develop on the platform.

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO?

[ILongForDarkness]

Not a fan of his personality but since Gates has left: XBox, .Net, Windows server ~3X gain in market share, dido database solutions. Dominant in most large corporations for email as well. They've done some good things, they've done some bad things like all companies. In pure business sense they are doing pretty good: http://ycharts.com/companies/MSFT/earning_yield#series=type:company,id:MSFT,calc:earning_yield&zoom=&startDate=6/30/2002&endDate=5/25/2012&format=real&recessions=false earnings yield went from ~1.75% to ~10% since 2002 (couldn't get a chart out to 2000 when Gates left) while they traded ~flat since the dot com boom. So MS today has the earnings to back up the valuation versus MS of Gates day. They might have boggled the phone, screwed the pouch with Vista etc but they earn money, at least now. Consumer software isn't the only source of revenue.

I think CEOs that need to be crapped on are the ones that gave them selves bonuses when they were getting government bailouts and losing money. Or the second they got out of government ownership decide to reward themselves with 10's of millions as deferred payment for all those hard years of ~1M/yr salaries.

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO?

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

The problem here is the TV problem. Visual Studio 11 is free to use, but not free to produce. You're not the customer, you're the product that Microsoft is buying. And Microsoft wants you to produce metro applications, that drive demand for their new products (and phones/tablets), not drag users back to their previous products that people have already bought.

It's as simple as that.

Don't like being used ? Pay for what you need. It'll be a whole other story, even with the very same Microsoft products.

Btw: as a developer I thought I'd add that Visual Studio is a fast, usable and well-integrated IDE, it's also a very, very industrial one. It is much less elegant than most of the alternatives.

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO?

[Anonymous Coward]

I just received a chair in the mail.

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO?

[hairyfeet]

I'm sorry AC but you are full of shit. NOBODY is gonna want to do serious work like photoshop or quickbooks or a bazillion other jobs on no damned iPad. what you and all those that worship the Cult of Steve seem to be missing is the big picture which i will now give to you..

The VAST majority of the PCs that were made in the last 5 to 7 years are not only "good enough" for the jobs people have, for most they are INSANELY over powered. The reason why all the OEMs like HP and Dell are shitting on themselves is frankly they got waaaay too fucking spoiled and thought the MHz wars were just gonna last forever, but those of us in the trenches could have told you when the first dual cores starting hitting mainstream that the gravy train was over. there just isn't any real "killer apps" that require the insane power of a hexa or octocore PC, most people with duals aren't even really stressing the system. I gave my GF a triple core Athlon for Xmas to replace her aging P4. Now this is probably considered dog slow by this group but after a month I checked her stats and you know what? The thing hadn't even hit 45% load. the kind of tasks that she and most consumers have simply aren't stressing the systems they have, so why buy a new one when they won't feel a difference?

So I'm sorry but for a few jobs iPads work, for the rest they are but a toy. Apple sells on brand like Prada and Nike, just ask those people standing in line for a new one "does the one you have not work? Is there something wrong with it?" and the answer is no, its just COOLER to have the newest one. its a status thing, nothing more.

The reason MSFT and the OEMs can't do this is frankly nobody gives a rat's ass about Windows or these OEMs as a brand, the ONLY thing they want a Windows PC for is to run their third party apps....which frankly aren't even stressing what they have. I have built e350 units for office workers, that is probably the weakest chip made that is out of order. do they complain? Is it slowing them down? Nope because for basic office jobs frankly ANY dual core gives them cycles to spare.

so ultimately X86 is simply a victim of its own success. they made chips so damned powerful that honestly nobody bothers to replace one until it dies and with just a tiny bit of care even that netbook or laptop can last 5 years or more. the OEMs thought they could just follow the same path and keep cashing the checks, they were wrong. ARM is currently undergoing its own MHz war but when that peters out i have NO doubt you'll see the exact same thing you see now in X86, incredibly overpowered devices that aren't replaced until the previous one fails. Except for Apple of course, because owning last year's iPad is like wearing last year's designer fashions, its just not hip.

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO?

[Eirenarch]

I find the decision very strange. The software that matters will still be developed for the desktop because big companies just buy Visual Studio (or more precisely have subscriptions). Trying to push Metro-style apps via students and hobbyists is in my opinion ridiculous. Also you get all the devs' rage and all the bad P.R. of Internet articles. If I saw any reason for them to do something evil, enslave the devs with their tools or push metro down our throats I would understand but this decision makes no sense to me in any way.

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO?

[Junta]

Basically, they are frightened by Apple's relative success in mobile computing devices. They previously had a strategy around tablet computing, and Windows 7 represented them addressing all the obvious tweaks to be applied to the desktop environment for tablet use case. That market still hasn't taken off, so they assume Metro and ARM are required.

Of course, I think WP7 lackluster performance in the phone space demonstrates that perceived value of Windows on ARM is not particularly compelling. They might still think that the large form factor tablets might be more competitive, but I don't see any reason to believe it. In tablet space, MS best hope is probably Medfield and Brazos based devices, bringing the massive set of MS compatibile applications.

Forcing Metro on Desktop users to the extent possible is probably also a strategy to effectively throw the desktop usability under the bus to force people to get used to the interface. The hope being if users end up using Metro UI every day, it would grow on them or at least they would tolerate and understand it, and consistency between Windows Phone and Windows desktop gives the phone product a boost.

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO?

[Xest]

"Not a fan of his personality but since Gates has left: XBox, .Net, Windows server ~3X gain in market share, dido database solutions."

This isn't because of some magical action, but because Ballmer left them alone to go down the path Gates had already set them on. Effectively all Ballmer had to do was recognise these segments were growing and leave the teams the fuck alone to keep growing them - even a CEO as shit as him can manage that.

The key issue is that under Ballmer no new product lines have arisen and been succesful. Just about every succesful product line Microsoft has now, stems from the Gates era. There have been a number of new high growth markets - portable media players, tablets, cell phones, and in every case, Ballmer has failed to grasp them and form a cohesive and succesful strategy around them. Even the web he's struggled with, I've never heard of anyone using Office 365, but I know plenty of people that use Google Apps for example. Their closest thing to success there has been Bing which basically just had an absolute fuckton of money thrown at it in terms of getting it as a default browser, and shit loads of advertising until it actually got to a slightly better than negligible market share.

I don't disagree that Microsoft is still doing well as a business, but the point is it's basically on cruise control and that only works until you run out of gas. The world of computing is changing, it's become, and becoming more and more web and mobile based, but Microsoft isn't managing to follow - it's profits still come almost entirely from the desktop and server markets.

This is why Ballmer is an abysmal failure of a CEO, because all he's achieved at Microsoft is to keep it on the same path it's been for the last 10 years, which sure, means that it's growing whilst that path remains viable, but what about when that path stops being viable? what if something comes along and eats into that path? What if say, Apple decides it is willing to start shipping and supporting Mac OS X for PCs and an office suite now that they have more than enough money to pursue that kind of venture? We know Jobs wouldn't have allowed it, but the new Apple, where Cook gives shareholders more of a say? What then for Microsoft? Their bottom line is under threat and they have nowhere else to run to.

The fact is that Gates built a company so big, strong, and powerful that even the worst CEO in the world would take a few decades to really kill it off. You only have to look at Sony for another example of this - it's only just now really beginning to start having to explain it's failings, despite having been run fairly incompetently for at least a decade, getting on for two. Sony's looking right now like it may well end up fading into the history books with it's continued decline, but it's taken along time, and it'll probably take at least another decade yet to truly falter, that's assuming they don't get their act together and bring in competent management in the meantime.

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

All of which might be a reasonable strategy, except that the typical uses for a Windows desktop PC are totally different to the typical uses for a tablet or similar mobile device. One is for power and content creation, the other is for easy content consumption. They just happen to overlap in that both can involve a web browser some of the time.

If MS sticks to its guns and tries to force Metro on everyone, I think it really will be the end of them, at least in their current monolithic form. I don't think they can afford another Vista or another poor assault on the mobile space, and Windows 8 has the potential to be both at the same time.

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO?

[nightfell]

I'm sorry AC but you are full of shit. NOBODY is gonna want to do serious work like photoshop or quickbooks or a bazillion other jobs on no damned iPad. what you and all those that worship the Cult of Steve seem to be missing is the big picture which i will now give to you..

You use words like "nobody", when you know that's an outright lie. Adobe sells a version of Photoshop on the iPad. There are plenty of personal financial apps on the iPad (including over a dozen apps from Intuit!).

As usual, hairyfeet, you're demonstrating just how woefully out of touch you are with reality. People don't buy iPads because they are stupid fashion cultists. They buy iPads because they *like* iPads! But since you don't sell iPads, and don't like them yourself, anyone who buys them must be stupid, cult followers, and fashionistas, right?

What reason does the non-professional user have, today, to not buy an iPad? Because it doesn't run Photoshop as capably as a PC, today? Because it doesn't run CAD software as capably as a PC, today? Because it doesn't run financial software as capably as a PC, today? For the 1% of people who actually need that sort of capability, *today* they need a PC. Good for them! But what about the other 99%? There are plenty of photo editors (including iPhoto, which is fantastic, and a version of Photoshop which is surprisingly capable), personal financial software, and CAD software (including software from Autodesk). Not quite as capable *today* as the PC versions, but over time those differences will diminish, as they have over the past 2+ years.

I don't think the PC is going away any time soon, but it's definitely becoming less and less necessary to more and more people year after year. I have no idea where the balance is going to eventually end up at, but I am quite certain that, already today, the iPad is more capable and the PC is less necessary than you seem to grasp, and that those trends are growing, not slowing.

The reason MSFT and the OEMs can't do this is frankly nobody gives a rat's ass about Windows or these OEMs as a brand, the ONLY thing they want a Windows PC for is to run their third party apps....

Exactly! They don't want the PC OS or PC hardware because they specifically want the PC OS or PC hardware, they simply want the capabilities that the PC OS and PC hardware enables. The iPad enables a significant portion of those capabilities, but without all the bullshit hassle that accompanies the PC OS and PC hardware.. That's why they like iPads. Not because they are stupid fashion cultists!

so ultimately X86 is simply a victim of its own success. they made chips so damned powerful that honestly nobody bothers to replace one until it dies and with just a tiny bit of care even that netbook or laptop can last 5 years or more.

Right... The problem with PCs is that they are so damned good, nobody buys them! Fucking brilliant! And the reason the iPad is selling so well? Because it's complete shit! Your logic is amazing, hairyfeet.

People buy iPads because they like them. You can't seem to understand this, so you make up a completely nonsensical theory about how people are simply dropping $500-$800+ on something they don't like, but which is simply some sort of fashion statement (even though people don't do that for *anything* else in the sort of numbers you see for the iPad).

You run a business by going after the stingiest of clients. You push netbooks onto them, going after the cheapskates who will buy the shittiest PC money can buy (the $300 netbook), then marvel when they don't come back year after year for upgrades? Yet somehow, this is because the PC is just too damned amazing!

Have you considered that you are going after the worst type of customer? The one who will spend the least amount of money possible? How can you be surprised that they don't buy new hardware very often? And for those who you are providing a disservice to by pushing

Oh come on

[MrEricSir]

No matter how you read this, the headline is completely misleading. There are other compilers/IDEs for Windows that cost $0. And the term "free" can mean two things on Slashdot; this headline makes it sound like Microsoft is trying to kill FOSS.

If you don't like VS10,

[NemoinSpace]

MS quipped. "you're free not to use it".

Re:Dumbest Decision Ever

[deniable]

This isn't a dumb decision at all. It's the consequence of a dumb decision. VS Express was put out to get people to switch to .NET development. Now that they're trying to shift from .NET to WinRT or whatever it's called this week, the tools aren't needed any more but the WinRT versions are. Look further down the stack and this change makes sense in a Microsoft way.

Re:Worry not: QT Creator IDE

[PurpleAlien]

There is no reason you have to release your code under the GPL if you use the Qt libraries. Qt is licensed under the LGPL.

Re:Dumbest Decision Ever

[CAKAS]

Visual Studio has been paid product for most its lifetime. The few recent versions had the free "express" edition mostly suited towards students and new programmers. No one that actually does serious development work uses it - it's just there to try things out, just like demo versions of games. Yet, they still offer free version to make Metro apps - again useful for new programmers. But if you do serious work, you will get the full version, just like you always have.

Is Apple really that great role model?

[hydrofix]

It seems like with this move and generally the Metro and Windows 8 walled garden stuff, Microsoft is going more and more "the Apple way". Is it really in their best interest? Is it just me, or hasn't the open-ish (compared to Apple) Intel + Microsoft Windows ecosystem served a desktop market niche that is different from the Apple universe? Does Microsoft have an exit strategy in case they fail in closer competition with Apple at Apple's game?

Re:Is Apple really that great role model?

[BenJeremy]

It seems like with this move and generally the Metro and Windows 8 walled garden stuff, Microsoft is going more and more "the Apple way". Is it really in their best interest? Is it just me, or hasn't the open-ish (compared to Apple) Intel + Microsoft Windows ecosystem served a desktop market niche that is different from the Apple universe? Does Microsoft have an exit strategy in case they fail in closer competition with Apple at Apple's game?

I wish I had mod points today....

This nails the point EXACTLY.

Microsoft is in such a rush to try and capture their own share of the mobile market and stay relevant, they are dumping 30 years of solid R&D in desktop user interfaces for an unintuitive tablet-centric UI, and in an effort to drive developers into the walled garden, they are now enforcing Metro development with their free tools.

The short-sighted idiots driving this nonsense at Microsoft are forsaking the desktop world with this move, though. As bad as we thought Vista was, it still sold well enough (tied to new systems) - but the user furor over Windows 8 will make the Vista flap seem like a blip in comparison. It's a wrong-headed approach to try and shove the genie back into the bottle, Microsoft... and worse, trying to do it by creating a hybrid UI that does no specific job particularly well for users of either environment. Compromises that sacrifice millions of dollars of very good research into user interfaces will end up costing you far more in the long run. ....and if consumers will be rebelling against Windows 8, what do you think will happen in the enterprise world? It's just starting to deploy Windows 7 desktops, warily approaching it after the nightmare that was Vista. Windows 8 demands retraining that will cost some organizations MILLIONS to implement. The introduction of Metro will also likely introduce a whole new firestorm of exploits for IT admins to face.

Congrats, Microsoft, for turning into a dumbass company overnight.

Do yourselves a big favor, Microsoft.... dump everybody in the company who thought Win8 Metro was a good decision for the desktop. FIRE THEM, and scrap the launch before it's too late. Pretend it never happened and begin working on Win9 with a Start Button and the improvements users WANT (like a new file system, for example, DLNA that works, improved stability and app fault recovery), instead of forcing limitations and touchscreen UIs down their throats.

Re:Worry not: QT Creator IDE

[hargrand]

The Qt SDK has an option to be used with LGPL v 2.1 which will allow developers to release proprietary executables without being required to release their source code. Source release is only required if the developers make changes to the Qt SDK itself, which usually shouldn't be an issue. There's also a commercial license available if even this is too onerous.

Re:That'll Drive 'em Away...

[FranTaylor]

Qt for Windows builds with mingw, so YES it is possible to build Windows desktop apps for free.

Re:Worry not: QT Creator IDE

[hydrofix]

You are forced to release your software as GPL if you use the QT sdk tough.

No you aren't. Get your facts straight.

Developers, developers, developers....

[jkrise]

Get Lost, Get Lost, Get Lost.

Enuff said. The desktop is the only saving grace for Microsoft, let alone Windows. Talk about killing the golden goose.

Microsoft has forgotten what business they're in

[JDG1980]

Microsoft is so consumed with "Apple envy" that they seem to have forgotten what their bread and butter is: the business desktop. They are so obsessed with being a competitor in the tablet market that they are making a product that actively hurts their core demographic.

Why do people use Windows? Legacy support is a BIG reason – and yet Microsoft under Ballmer seems dedicated to trying to kill it as quickly as possible. Guess what? If legacy support goes away, so does a large part of the reason for people not switching to another OS! After all, if they have to rewrite everything anyway... Ballmer once understood that "developers, developers, developers" were what made Microsoft's platform dominate; now he seems to be going for tablet/smartphone-using hipsters and tweens, and giving developers the middle finger.

Windows SDK no longer includes toolchain

[Anonymous Coward]

Just download the MS SDK. It's been free for years and includes the compiler et al. It's only the pretty IDEs that are a problem.

Not anymore:

"The Windows SDK no longer ships with a complete command-line build environment. The Windows SDK now requires a compiler and build environment to be installed separately."

Qt Creator >= Visual Studio

[goruka]

For C++ development, ease of use, portability and tools, Qt Creator is both a lightweight and feature packed IDE. It has about the same feature set as Visual Studio and similar usage, plus it's much easier to use and configure for custom build systems. It can be used with both MSVC compiler and Mingw. It's well mantained and has some killer features such as the locator. As a plus, it works identically everywhere, so I can get my favorite development environment no matter if i'm at work (Windows), at home (Linux) or on my laptop (OSX).
In my view, the biggest problem it has is it's name, "Qt-Creator", which i wish developers would change. Even if Qt is hands down the best library and toolit i've ever used for mobile and desktop development, it works perfectly fine for non Qt related development too, so plenty of developers writing non-Qt are missing the best opensource C++ IDE.

Re:Microsoft has forgotten what business they're i

[flimflammer]

But a lot of them do target XP, which is no longer supported in either version.

uH, wHAT? and Uh, What?

[TiggertheMad]

but that's 99% lazy, lazy programmers using the built in MS-SQL (which will bite them hard in the ass in a few years when in high cost of maintaining SQL DBs running over TCP/IP vs el-cheapo access DBs on network shares becomes apparent).

...I can think of all sorts of arguments for not using MS SQL that you could adopt for valid reasons, but I would have never dreamed I would hear someone advocating shitty access dbs on network shares as a replacement for a proper db.

You sir, are a goon.