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Remembering America's Fresh Water Submarines
Hugh Pickens writes "As we move into Memorial Day and Americans remember the men and women who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces, I wanted to share the story of my Uncle Donald Cress born in 1922 in Bath Township, Minnesota who served as a Radioman, Third Class on the USS Robalo, one of the US Navy's 'Fresh Water Submarines' because they were commissioned in the Great Lakes. On the western shore of Lake Michigan, about 80 miles north of Milwaukee, lies Manitowoc, Wisconsin, a city whose shipyards had built car ferries and ore boats since 1902. In 1939 war broke out in Europe and President Roosevelt declared a limited National Emergency and U.S. Navy shipbuilders were concerned that submarine building capacity was not sufficient to support a long war. The US Navy asked the Manitowoc Shipbuilding Company to build submarines, a task far beyond their existing capabilities, but assured them that the Electric Boat Company, with the only shipyard in the country capable of building submarines, would provide plans and whatever assistance they would need. Manitowoc's shipyard grew from 500 employees to 7,000 employees at its peak working three shifts around the clock 365 days a year and by the end of the war had built 25 submarines in time to see action that together sank 132 Japanese ships. 'It appears from the results obtained at Manitowoc that given a set of good plans, competent engineers and skilled workman can follow them and build what is called for even though it might be very much more sophisticated than anything they have built before,' writes Rear Admiral William T. Nelson. But there was one more thing the shipyard had going for it. After Pearl Harbor the entire community was now engaged in vital and important war work, sacrifice was the order of the day, and each boat was their boat. 'With the entire community following the construction with such interest and spirit, success was inevitable.'"
Only useful if we are ever attacked by canada.
Hahaha. You mean "as we remember and celebrate barbecuing and long weekends off from work".
Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military. That way, we collectively put anyone joining the military on a pedestal. That way, we keep the machine fed so dumb young people are brainwashed by the rest of us into sacrificing themselves -- worthwhile for a good cause and not so much for trivial world-cop activities and guarding international corporate interests and oil-wells. We're all guilty of promoting the government propaganda that keeps allowing elderly fucktard politicians to throw young lives away. Memorial day my fucking ass.
"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."
As far as I know Memorial day is only observed in the US of A.
Most of the rest of the allies commemorate the fallen of the wars on the 11th day of the 11th month (to mark the end of the first world war)
Except for those of us from down under who remember our fallen troops on ANZAC day (25th April) the anniversary of the Gallipoli landings
Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military.
We drafted soldiers into WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam. Tens of thousands of them were killed, and many more were injured. I thank them and honor them for their service to our country. Subsequent military actions were staffed by men and women who volunteered to serve and protect our country. Thousands of them have been killed, and many more have been injured. I thank them and honor them for their service to our country.
I don't agree with all our government's policies regarding war, nation building, military spending, etc, but I can certainly distinguish between those in power that hatch these policies from those that fight, suffer and die because of them.
I think they may have had a little more time to actually rack up that number,
So tell me what about the Korean war or Vietnam had anything to do with protecting our country?
They were about protecting our allies. I certainly don't think they were a great idea but I can separate those who fought and died from the politicians who sent them into battle.
Furthermore what about the countless other lives that we have ended, and the countless populations that we have stolen from, in order to live in the extravagance that we enjoy today?
Once again you're equating the policies and practices of the government with the sacrifices made by those who serve in the military. They are not one and the same.
Brainwashed!
Things are not as black & white as agreeing with you or being brainwashed. It's that type of attitude that leads to conflicts ... which lead to wars.
By fielding politicians who promises 40 virgins in the afterlife to whomever votes for the party line, and fear mongering about the gods destruction of our society if gays are allowed to marry, its only a slight variation on what our politicians currently vote for and people can still worship Jesus.
Actually we can argue that a country can do without a military. Without even looking it up I know Costa Rica doesn't have one. Oh look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces That said I wouldn't say for a minute that the US can do without their military but it has grown so far out of proportion to it's needs that has simply become ridiculous with them constantly having to invent reasons for its existance.
"Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now - the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended or wasting lives."
Are you serious? You were doing great until this sentence. Not only is it a ridiculous exaggeration (the fantasies of a few terrorist fanatics do not make a viable invasion force), but it's no better than any of the other the bigoted BS that generations of political leaders have used to start wars, whether we're talking ethnic, religious, racial, or some other silly excuse. After a couple of world wars, I thought we had moved on from that crap?
I too have a great deal of respect for people who join the military. I have very little respect for politicians or for the other people that use words of prejudice and misunderstanding to justify sending soldiers off to war. When there's a GOOD reason, when it is a necessity: yeah, send them. That's their job, and soldiers take their duty seriously. But as citizens in a democratic country, it is our duty to make decisions that are based on credible threats, not on paranoia and childish fears. It is our duty to make sure that the military is strategically focused where it matters, not squandering lives and money fruitlessly.
I don't know what propaganda you've been listening to -- the fantasies of fringe islamist fanatics or the ultra-right-wing anti-immigration wackos who generically think "Muslims are the enemy" -- but the fear you are describing is a recipe for politicians to manipulate people, not the justification for having a military or respecting the job they do.
But wouldn't building submarines in the great lakes be a violation of the Rush-Bagot treaty?
"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)
for the simple reason they are putting their lives on the line.
Just like miners, construction workers, fishermen, hangliding instructors, etc. Someone will inevitably argue "nobody is actively trying to kill those guys", but the source of the risk doesn't matter. Getting crushed by a pile of rock, or blown up by a IED, is death on the job either way.
I've been on a lot of tours of WWII vessels-- everything from the USS Arizona in Hawaii to the USS North Carolina in North Carolina to the submarine exhibit at the Deutsches Museum in Munich, Germany. I have to say the very best tour I've done was the USS Cobia sub tour in Manitowoc, WI. http://www.wisconsinmaritime.org/ The tour was given by an old WWII submariner (yes, he was old!). It was a far better experience than any other sub exhibit. The sub is in the water and it is quite the feeling to go beneath the water line of a WWII sub. If you are ever in the area, I highly recommend it! Granted that was 12 years ago and nowadays the old tour guides may have either passed or are too feeble...
And the fact that you eat "beef" and "veal" instead of Cu and Cealf is an artifact of the French conquest of England. Not sure what any of this has got to do with the military threat any country or group of people poses to another in modern times, though. "Skirt" is an artifact of the Scandinavian people invading England -- better watch out for those Norwegians, I hear they're still on a spree of rape and pillaging through Central Europe!
Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended.
Yeah because the army was formed on Sept 12th, 2001. Oh wait, what? Your argument is full of shit.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
cynisism in this thread but its true. Memorial Day has been perverted by the government over time to enforce blind patriotic obedience. A sizeable number of service members have come home missing limbs, or rocked by bomb blasts to the full scale IQ of about 85. No one can remember what it was we fought for in iraq, and if they can they dont feel very accomplished or proud about it unless they were told to by a superior officer. We finally accomplished the goal of killing a "six foot tall diabetic" in afghanistan and whle that was supposed to usher in the end of the war on terror; it didnt. We have warrantless searches near borders, warrantless wiretaps, and we cant get on a plane or train without a physically degrading pat down or full-body x-ray that has begun to show potential as a cancer suspect agent. Our country beats a war drum every four years like clockwork, and every four years we're lulled into a state of cringing terror as the next theatre is prepared. we havent anything to commemorate today but the striking effectiveness by which private think tanks and policy centers incense us in favour of war.
On the other spectrum we have private corporations that are trying their goddamned best to make sure you forget the consequences of war like economic depression, poverty, mental illness, death, and the never ending destruction of the constitutional rights by which every american lives freely. So long as you buy your budweiser and 1200 pack of hamburgers from walmart, and dont forget to let the kids wash down their potato chips and hot dogs with a 2 liter of your favorite black bubbly sodapop, most multinational corporations will openly and warmly continue gifting you an alternate reality from that of americas recent wars from viet-nam onward. its one of flags and fireworks, proud bipedal service members and smiling families celebrating whatever the exact opposite of this holiday commemorates.
The only way to see exactly what this holiday is commemorating is to put down the remote, pull yourself off the couch and drive down to the VA hospital. I firmly believe if every american made the trip once, just once, then the next president to even mutter a sentiment about potentially starting war would find himself amidst impeachment.
Good people go to bed earlier.
And what if they don't have kids? Or don't care about their kids?
Here's my proposal: http://slashdot.org/~TheLink/journal/208853
In the old days kings used to lead their soldiers into battle. In modern times this is impractical and counterproductive.
But you can still have leaders lead the frontline in spirit.
Basically, if leaders are going to send troops on an _offensive_ war/battle (not defensive war) there must be a referendum on the war.
If there are not enough votes for the war, those leaders get put on deathrow.
At a convenient time later, a referendum is held to redeem each leader. Leaders that do not get enough votes get executed. For example if too many people stay at home and don't bother voting - the leaders get executed.
If it turns out later that the war was justified, a fancy ceremony is held, and the executed leaders are awarded a purple heart or equivalent, and you have people say nice things about them, cry and that sort of thing.
If it turns out later that the leaders tricked the voters, a referendum can be held (need to get enough signatories to start such a referendum, just to prevent nutters from wasting everyone elses time).
This proposal has many advantages:
1) Even leaders who don't really care about those "young soldiers on the battlefield" will not consider starting a war lightly.
2) The soldiers will know that the leaders want a war enough to risk their own lives for it.
3) The soldiers will know that X% of the population want the war.
4) Those being attacked will know that X% of the attackers believe in the war - so they want a war, they get a war - for sufficiently high X, collateral damage becomes insignificant. They might even be justified in using WMD and other otherwise dubious tactics. If > 90% of the country attacking you want to kill you and your families, what is so wrong about you using WMD as long as it does not affect neighbouring countries?
As a military veteran with friends and family who also served in the military (some who have been in combat), I'd like to offer you the most sincere heartfelt sentiment I can think of: Fuck You.
You don't even understand the thing that you're bashing. Memorial Day is about honoring those who died in battle, not everyone in the military. It doesn't much matter whether you agree with war, or the government, or the military, or whatever your favorite institutional boogeyman is, today is for those who volunteered to serve their country and paid the ultimate sacrifice. If anything, this should be the peacenik's favorite holiday because it highlights and emphasises the real cost of war.
And then there's the irony of posting as an Anonymous Coward...
When and where is their Memorial Day?
They don't need one. I'm sure they can remember their losses every day. If they get close to forgetting the US military will send another drone or bomb to remind them.
This story hits close to home since I grew up 25 miles from Manitowoc and my dad grew up there. He's told me stories about how his parents would take him down to see the shipyard side launch the subs into the river. They also have a pretty nice maritime museum in Manitowoc (http://www.wisconsinmaritime.org/index.php).
Look how many on that list are only capable of being on that list because either the US, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand have defense agreements with them.
They can afford not to have militaries because other people are responsible for their defense.
Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now
Do you seriously believe that? There is absolutely no way the terrorists ever had even the remotest hope of overthrowing our government. Your statement is one of the most ludicrous I've ever read on this whole topic -- and mountains of idiocy have been spouted.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
You could argue that the situation in north korea as it is now, is only because it has to participate in asymmetrical warfare, including a cultural warfare as well. It takes idiotic cult personalities to lead people who are otherwise ignorant, especially when the powerful and thus educated people don't give a damn about you and want to keep you dumb and powerless. Thus the koreans generally did want to have a communist government, but the USA supported the japanese and their pawns, in order to put their own people in charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Korea_divided_.281945.E2.80.931949.29
China had its communist revolution, due in part because it was getting shafted by the colonial powers, in what was known as the "unequal treaties". Similarly the colonial powers were in control of the middle east, and have exerted control over the middle east for a long time, part of which is why israel exists to begin with. We created the environment for backwards uneducated militants to exist, by depriving the populace of a government that benefits them, and empowering ruthless dictators to rule. Just because our oil comes from SA, doesn't mean that ME isn't influential to the commodities market, and ignores that we originally controlled the ME oil production. We also did the same sort of colonialism in south america, ala banana republics, panama, contra's, cuba, etc, and its real easy for us to be creative and industrious, while slave labor was producing our food for us at home and abroad. The borders that were made in the middle east and Africa, were specifically designed to pit ethnic groups against each other, and just make up fake ethnicity in the case of tutsi's and hutu's
"Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military."
As a vet, I agree with that statement!
While it's nicer than being vilified, the truth is more complex.
Having entered service BEFORE the Bullshit Pump was turned on in it's most recent incarnation, I remember when being a "good Soldier/Sailor/Marine/Airman" was a compliment and there was no perceived need to call everyone a "hero".
If everyone is a "hero", the term loses all meaning. There are heroes, there are shitbags, and there are the great majority of Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Airmen who get shit done pretty well.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
I do what I do so that we can keep this fight away from our home.
Yeah, by fighting in someone else's home, so their little girls get to experience it, instead.
Your little girl's security comes at the expense of hundreds of thousands of completely innocent people, and not only that, but it perpetuates the terrorism that we're supposedly over there fighting in the first place. Simple logic and human nature dictates that losing your family in response to terrorist acts they had no part in can do nothing but encourage the survivors to engage in terrorist acts themselves. If your little girls were killed by an occupying force, would you not retaliate with every fiber of your being? Yet we vilify the Iraqis (and Afghanis, and Vietnamese, and every other country we've occupied in the last 50+ years of proxy war we're involved in)? The vast majority of the people of this country would do the same fucking thing in their situation.
The late, great Bill Hicks said it best:
The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, around and around, it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while. Many people have been on the ride a long time, and they begin to wonder, "Hey, is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and say, "Hey, don't worry; don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride." And we kill those people. "Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill the good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.
Imagine how much good will there would be in the world if, instead of killing these people, we fed them?
If so you are kidding yourself. Never mind them not being armed with any anti-ship weapons (which are rather complicated to design, manufacture, and make work), they aren't facing up against their real military counterparts. These little narco-boats are not being hunted by US Navy subs and ASW ships. They are just dealing with the DEA and coast guard.
Also they have a much easier job of staying undetected than an attack sub. When you are just trying to get from point a to point b, subs can be fairly sneaky. However when they launch an attack, everyone knows where they are when said attack happens.
If they tried to interdict merchant shipping lanes and sink ships, they'd quickly find out they are playing in a league they can't deal with. To give you an idea:
A narco sub is 40 to 80 feet in length, made of fiberglass, wood, and maybe steel, has a diesel engine, can go about 6 knots, has a range of maybe 2000nm and generally isn't fully submersible. One of the few found that was (found before its maiden voyage I might add) could go about 300 feet under water. No design optimization for silent operation, no sonar, no torpedoes, weapons are only whatever the 3-6 crew have.
Against that would be the Virgina class attack subs. 377 feet long, made of reenforced steel and classified composites. Has a nuclear engine with unlimited range, and diesel backup, and go "more than 25 knots" the government won't say what its actual max speed is. Likewise it has demonstrated a public test dive to 800 feet, real max depth classified. It carries 12 tomahawk missiles, and has 4 torpedo tubes that can fire Mark 48 torpedoes (it carries 26 total of them) or harpoon anti-ship missiles. It has the best passive and active sonar systems the US has ever made, all the capabilities are classified. It has been designed to be as silent as possible and is supposed to be as quiet underway as a Seawolf tied to a pier (already a very quiet sub).
You really think there's any comparison?
You have to remember for all the chatter of a "war on drugs" it is really just an ineffectual police action. When one of these narco subs gets spotted, the crew scuttles it so as to not get caught with anything. The coast guard then rescues the crew. They are just (semi) stealthy drug transports.
If they were being used to interdict and sink shipping traffic, there would be a REAL war and these things wouldn't be looked for so their crews could be taken in to custody, they'd be blown the fuck up. Wouldn't just be the US on their ass either, though they would be the biggest threat, merchant ships are flagged from nations all over the world, they'd all be out for blood if they were getting blown up.
Butler wasn't wrong in the general case, only in that specific one. He was speaking from experience gained by U.S. adventurism in Central and South America.
For every one "justifiable war" you can name, such as the defense of Europe from Nazism, I can name a dozen or more that fit Butler's description.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
That's only one class of US subs.
The U-Boat crews did a terrific job with what little they had, but they could stalk convoys from port-to-port and use Wolfpack tactics to concentrate force.
Some U-boats had superb commanders with, well huge cojones:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnther_Prien
On the other hand, the collective US submarine effort was much MORE effective than the U-boats.
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/pac-campaign.html
""Bauxite imports fell off 88% just between the summer and fall of 1944. In 1945, pig iron imports plunged 89%, pulp 90%, raw cotton and wool 91%, fats and oils 92%, iron ore 95%, soda and cement 96%, lumber 98%, fodder 99%, and not one ounce of sugar or raw rubber reached Japan."(12)
Moreover, the reduction in imports of raw materials mirrored problems importing food. During 1944, average caloric intake fell 12% below the minimum daily requirement for the non-farming population.(13) The enormous drop in importation of raw materials resulted in a significant drop in Japanese industrial production. In fact, the Japanese mobilization committee stated in a late 1944 report: "Shipping lost or damaged since the beginning of the war amounts to two and one half times newly constructed shipping and formed the chief cause of the constant impoverishment of national strength."(14)
Submarine attacks on the oil flow to Japan were a second critical factor in destroying Japanese military potential. Japanese oil imports fell from 1.75 million barrels per month in August 1943 to 360,000 barrels per month in July 1944. In October 1944, imports fell even more due to high losses around the Philippine battlefields.(15) After September 1943, the ratio of petroleum successfully shipped from the southern regions that reached Japan never exceeded 28%, and during the last 15 months of the war the ratio only averaged 9%.(16) These losses are especially impressive when one considers that the Japanese Navy alone required 1.6 million barrels monthly to operate.(17) Much anecdotal evidence describes Japan's often desperate responses to the American guerre de course. For example, in early 1945, the Japanese Navy loaded crude oil barrels on battleships to import home, while at the same time the nation experimented with producing gasoline from potatoes.(18)"
"The war against Japanese SLOCs resulted in significant indirect effects on Japanese air strength. In fact, the reduction in Japan's air power strength was not so much due to the reduction of aircraft quality or production but due to the reduction in pilot quality. Fuel shortages substantially reduced pilot training.(25) In 1944, the great Japanese naval aviator Fuchida complained about the "inadequate training" aviators received prior to attachment to an operational unit.(26) Moreover, once Japanese pilots reached operational units, their training opportunities often did not improve. For example, prior to the Battle of the Philippine Sea, Admiral Toyoda stationed his carriers at Tawitawi near the Borneo oil supplies due to the effective submarine campaign against Japanese tankers. U.S. commanders vectored submarines into the area. Alerted to the danger, the Japanese commander refused to sortie for training- with the result that what little skills his undertrained pilots possessed atrophied.(27) The resulting Japanese aerial defeat became known as the Marinas Turkey Shoot."
"As previously discussed, 30% of total Japanese Navy losses were caused by U.S. submarines. Submarines played another important role in reducing IJN capabilities. Damage to ships, caused in part by submarines, significantly increased ship repair time in Japanese shipyards, thereby reducing opportunities for new construction. The Japanese Navy spent 12% of its construction budget on ship repairs in 1943 and 1944; the figure increased to 34% in 1945.(29) Additionally, the submarine cam
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
The impact(s) of sinking and damaging Japanese shipping were enormous!
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/pac-campaign.html
"Disproportionate Costs Imposed on Japanese
I have attempted to roughly calculate costs of each side's effort in order to determine whether the U.S. campaign was "efficient." The cost of merchant ships and warships lost to U.S. submarine attack were calculated using actual Japanese prices and added to the cost of all Japanese ASW frigates and corvettes (but not fleet destroyers or ASW aircraft).(48) Using U.S. Navy figures I calculated the cost of the entire fleet of 288 U.S. submarines that served or were built during the war (regardless of whether they served in the Pacific). The result is impressive although not surprising: the Japanese spent at least 42 times more on anti-submarine warfare and in losses attributed to submarines than the U.S. spent on her Submarine Force. When one considers the fact that the Japanese economy was only 8.9% of the size of the U.S. economy in 1937, the submarine campaign was clearly both an extraordinarily cost efficient and effective means to employ U.S. forces against Japan.(49) Regardless of the cost effectiveness of the U.S. submarine campaign, the military effects were stunningly clear. Fully a year before the end of the war, and before the extensive bombing of mainland Japan, the war against Japanese lines of communication resulted in decisive impact on the Japanese war economy and on the Japanese military logistical system. "
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
The problem with placing too much "honor" on the soldiers for their work is the vast majority go on to support the politicians that push the military agenda at the expense of sustainable policies.
Eisenhower said essentially the same thing in 1953:
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.This world in arms in not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.
The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some 50 miles of concrete highway. We pay for a single fighter with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. This, I repeat, is the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron."
"Oh God help us. We're in the hands of engineers."
This isn't completely true... Electric Boat was the only private shipyard building submarines, but Mare Island Naval Shipyard and Portsmouth Naval Shipyard were building them too.
Admiral Nelson considerably oversimplifies a complex situation. EB provided more than just plans... They also provided experienced engineers and trained workmen to bootstrap Manitowoc's efforts. In the early stages, they sent parts and components from EB to Manitowoc as well. Manitowoc also sent people to EB for training and experience. Engineers and experienced Naval Constructors came from BUSHIPS in Washington D.C and Portsmouth and Mare Island Naval Shipyards.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled rants about the military-industrial complex and anti-military sentiment.
/submarinehistorypedant.
As much as it pains me to do so... I have to say that you're wrong and he's correct.
The historical reason for Memorial Day was to honor those who fell in service, but over the years it has expanded. Over the years it grew to encompass all service members who have died including veterans and retirees that passed quietly in their beds decades after their service. In particular, over the last decade is has further expanded in the public mind to include living servicembers and veterans as well.
(And, FWIW, I'm a vet too.)
Nit: That's not one class of subs, that's 25 subs out of two classes (Gato and Balao) built by a single shipyard.
At it's peak, the US Submarine Force in WII numbered over 250, including 77 Gato's and 128 Balao's.
It had nothing to do with protecting our allies, it had to do with protecting our business interest, which communism was an ideological threat to. The citizens of Vietnam and Korea wanted communism, and just like many other countries we took it away from them, so that we could continue to reap the rewards of our influence.
Really? Every citizen in Vietnam and Korea wanted communism? Next I suppose you're going to tell us that those not wanting communism were brainwashed/bribed by the US Industrial/Military Complex, while the USSR/China side was not.
I can mend the break of day, heal a broken heart, and provide temporary relief to nymphomaniacs.
In the old days kings used to lead their soldiers into battle.
Some did. Most didn't. We just hear about the ones that did because they are more interesting.
Basically, if leaders are going to send troops on an _offensive_ war/battle (not defensive war) there must be a referendum on the war.
I agree with the principle but in practice it's not always so easy to tell the difference. The best way to deal with some threats is not always to simply wait for the attack to come and respond.
If there are not enough votes for the war, those leaders get put on deathrow. At a convenient time later, a referendum is held to redeem each leader. Leaders that do not get enough votes get executed. For example if too many people stay at home and don't bother voting - the leaders get executed.
Your suggestion above is utterly batshit insane. Your solution to kill people to avoid killing people is pretty much the dumbest idea I've ever read. It's as dumb as the "pro life" zealots who kill doctors to stop abortions. Wars are almost never popular. Furthermore even if we did implement such an idiotic policy, no one else would and thus in any armed conflict our leaders would have an incentive to take the non-violent path even if that was a bad idea. Good policies are frequently not popular policies.
The late, great Bill Hicks said it best:
There was nothing great about Bill Hicks. He was simply a bitter man that hated everything. What's funny is that he would despise people like you that deify him now that he's dead.
Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.
This from the same man that described humanity as "a virus with shoes"
Hicks was no different from any other bi-polar leftwing cynic: swinging wildly from visions of utopia to expressing the deepest hope that a giant meteor would come and end humanity once and for all. Yes, that's some voice in the wilderness you follow.
Imagine how much good will there would be in the world if, instead of killing these people, we fed them?
We already do that to a great extent. The United States in particular gives away more aid in food, medicines, and money than anyone else in history. We do it on a massive scale. And it'll never bring about this utopia you seek. Because humanity is flawed, and despite Gene Roddenberry's own utopian ideals, human nature will never "evolve". It is what it is. The are inescapable consequences to this truth. "For the poor will always be with you", as Jesus put it, is one of them.
We could totally and completely devote our country to doing nothing but feeding and caring for the rest of the world. We could completely stand down our army and become the biggest welfare state anywhere. And it would change nothing. Because there will always be people that, no matter what you do for them, will want to kill you and take what you have, or simply kill you because they don't like what you're thinking. The ramblings of "if we just embraced peace" from people like Hicks are the ramblings of fools. We're not perfect by any means, and there's a lot of room for improvement, but I'll take having a military defend our interests while trying to help others as we can... over simply laying our arms down and hoping for the best. The former is prudent. The latter will end you, with some other guy killing you and taking your stuff.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
to have seen ships burning after being torpedoed off the Delaware coast; dived in both WWII era sub, a Balistic Missle sub and a modern attack boat; played war games against Russian subs (they were remarkably friendly and knew our exercise rules and would help us with data to assist our scoring). We used to exchange officers between our subs and the anti-subs so we each could better understand the limitations each operated under, the effectiveness of their weapons, sensors and the like. Those guys were good.
And I just got back from a ceremony honoring an Air Force medic killed along with dozens of others when his chopper was shot down in Afghanistan. His widow lives near me, her husband never got to see the house they were building. The speech was given by a neighbor who can barely walk having crashed too many times and jumped too many times. Yes, he suffers from PTSD. Can't sleep well at night. And now spends his days dealing with suicides in the army trying to prevent and then to console the families.
Those are the heroes.
Some others of us who served, through the luck of our assignments, had relatively easy times of it. I volunteered in an era of the draft. I'm glad I did it.
What have you done for others? Have you even lost a friend?
Furthermore what about the countless other lives that we have ended, and the countless populations that we have stolen from, in order to live in the extravagance that we enjoy today?
Brainwashed!
Go live elsewhere then. If you think the United States is so bad, why do you stay? Find yourself a nice country somewhere that you think is morally superior, and go there. We'll certainly be happier for it. I don't think you will though, because I think you're the kind of person that's going to bitch and moan about how rotten things are wherever you go. Regardless, go somewhere else and be their problem if you hate it some much here. You're not going to "redeem" us, after all.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
If the politicians can't convince enough people that the war is justified can you please tell me WHY there should be war?
Because the majority isn't always right, doesn't always have the facts and votes are about perceptions instead of reality. There is a very good reason that military hierarchy isn't a democracy. Furthermore the democratic process is slow. Sometimes that's a very good thing, sometimes it is not. Don't get me wrong, I think there need to be some pretty severe curbs on the ability of our elected leaders to commit our troops to battle. That's why we have separation of powers and the executive branch doesn't control the money for the armed forces in our country. No money = very short war.
If you think the majority of your people will be so stupid in such serious and important matters, then using the same reasoning you should do away with democratic elections too right?
There is a huge difference between voting on a leader and voting on all the issues the leader will deal with. There are many issues that each of us don't have much experience with. I am not an expert on national security but I am actually pretty good at evaluating candidates for a job. I've interviewed many people often for jobs I'm not personally an expert in. Lots of people (most in fact) have the ability to evaluate talent even in areas where they lack the talent themselves. So yes, the public IS uninformed and stupid about many specific matters relating to national security but they are NOT uninformed and stupid about how to determine if someone else is knowledgeable about that topic. The job of a democracy is to hire leaders with specific knowledge, not to decide on most of those issues directly themselves. Doesn't mean the voters will always get it right (refer to George Bush if you need a good example of a badly chosen leader) but they usually do a good job in the long run.
Furthermore if the public really wants to stop their leaders from starting wars in the US, all they have to do is amend the Constitution. The power to control our leaders already exists and doesn't require mass executions. Direct democracy results in the tyranny of the majority.
If they attack first, the leaders can nuke them to bits if they think its justified.
In an age of nuclear weapons and weaponized biological agents, waiting for someone to attack you and only then responding is tantamount to suicide. Do you really want to wait for someone who is willing to be a suicide bomber to attack you with a nuclear weapon before responding?