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The Race To $1,000 Human Genome Sequencing

ericjones12398 writes "Just one decade ago, sequencing an entire human genome cost upwards of $10 million and took about three years to complete. Now, several companies are racing to provide technology that can sequence a complete human genome in one day for less than $1,000. 'A genome sequence for $1,000 was a pipe dream, just a few years ago,' said Dr. Richard Gibbs, director of the Human Genome Sequencing Center at Baylor College of Medicine, 'A $1,000 genome in less than one day was not even on the radar, but will transform the clinical applications of sequencing."

153 comments

  1. Designer Humans? by LostCluster2.0 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Cheap sequencing is a little scary to me. How close are they from creating a person from picked genes and how does that affect evolution?

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    1. Re:Designer Humans? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 5, Interesting

      How close are they from creating a person from picked genes

      Actually quite far, mammals cloning suffer some problems that cheap sequencing will don't help solving.

      how does that affect evolution?

      Evolution ? Of humans ? Since the beginning of medicine, since we save the weak and the sick, evolution is not a natural process anymore, but something we control ourselves as a civilization.

      Cheap sequencing, on the other hand, is a very good news to raise the size of human data that we have. Medicine will improve thanks to that. There is still a lot to understand, and the more data we have, the better.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    2. Re:Designer Humans? by mupuf · · Score: 2

      I find Gattaca's plot more likely than creating humans by mixing genes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_nkVmRSpfE

    3. Re:Designer Humans? by vlm · · Score: 2

      sequencing is to creating a fully synthesized human as taking a picture of a skyscraper is to building it.

      how does that affect evolution

      LOL a pretty good one line summary of civilization is "replacing evolution with something else" or "civilization is the subversion of evolution" or "evolution and civilization are opposites". If you have laws and hospitals, evolution is pretty much on the way out.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    4. Re:Designer Humans? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Decoding the genome =! reintroducing changes. So no, you don't get human walks in - Gene Enhanced Creature walks out of the boutique DNA store.

      It's actually not clear exactly what you get. Likely not much for clinical medicine just yet. More likely a boon to the rest of biology. Imagine being able to sequence little bugs / plants / exciting and unusual critters from your pond scum in a hour. That allows you to break open biological systematics so that we can really create finely detailed maps of the ebb and flow of genetic material over the planet.

      You could also find out if your sister was really your sister, or indeed even human. But you could do that now with SNP (single nucleotide polymorphisms) for a couple of bucks and a Priority Mail envelope.

      --
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    5. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Evolution is simply the description of the effect of the environment on species over time. Change the environment (e.g. introduce civilization) and evolution continues, it's just responding to different pressures.

    6. Re:Designer Humans? by demachina · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      "Cheap sequencing, on the other hand, is a very good news"

      Not to mention the next time a nationalist socialist regime takes power they will have a really easy time identifying the people they want to put in the concentration camps.

      If you get your DNA sequenced you should keep it in the back of your mind, what might someone with a racial superiority agenda do with it some day.

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      @de_machina
    7. Re:Designer Humans? by godrik · · Score: 2

      Actually, you are not that wrong about a Priority mail envelope. Researcher can now compress genomes to very small sizes. Small enough to fit an email attachment :
      http://bioinformatics.oxfordjournals.org/content/25/2/274

    8. Re:Designer Humans? by gringer · · Score: 2

      How close are they from creating a person from picked genes and how does that affect evolution?

      Choosing a fertilized egg based on its genetics is already possible through pre-implantation genetic diagnosis. To do this, you need in-vitro fertilisation. This was the situation that was portrayed in Gattaca. If you have sex to get babies, you're stuck with randomness within the limits of your (and your partner's) genes.

      In 2005, it was possible to genotype about 5 different genetic variants from a single cell. Now it's possible to do a few tens of thousand, as long as you're willing to deal with a bit of error (you need the whole genome to be amplified up to readable amounts first). I expect that the oxford nanopore technology will make single-cell full genome sequencing a possibility without whole-genome amplification.

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      Ask me about repetitive DNA
    9. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      impressive , three posts till a nazi mention

    10. Re:Designer Humans? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Evolution ? Of humans ? Since the beginning of medicine, since we save the weak and the sick, evolution is not a natural process anymore, but something we control ourselves as a civilization.

       

      Oh it's evolution all right. "Natural" or not, it's the same thing. We're selecting for traits that are advantageous at the point in time the selection occurs. In the case of the 'weak' or 'frail' we are making a conscious selection to keep these folks around for whatever reason. In the long run, it may help or hurt if the selection pressure on humans changes. Perhaps allowing kids who were born premature, who would not have survived except for the intervention of modern medicine, to survive and breed will pass along some genes that allow for their kids to survive in a high CO2 environment (or what ever). You don't know. Any time you select genes you're evolving.

      Remember, evolution doesn't move in any particular 'direction'. Newer isn't better, just more adapt to the local environment. Change the environment, change the needed adaption and life goes on.

      Nature cares not.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    11. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sequencing is more like getting the assembly instructions for the skyscraper in a foreign language rather than simply taking a picture of a skyscraper. There is a lot left to be translated but it gets us a good portion closer to the final goal.

    12. Re:Designer Humans? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

      Evolution will keep working unless we start just making clones. Even if every human is born from a test tube, there will be still evolution, in the form of say, parents selecting which genes they deem more fit, and the environment and biology will keep rejecting those that aren't compatible enough with life or the environment.

    13. Re:Designer Humans? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      If you get your DNA sequenced you should keep it in the back of your mind

      Yes, indeed.

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    14. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Evolution ? Of humans ? Since the beginning of medicine, since we save the weak and the sick, evolution is not a natural process anymore, but something we control ourselves as a civilization.

      It's not just our evolution we control. Allow me to introduce you to dogs and cattle.

      Humans have been controlling evolution for tens of thousands of years. And we're not special. Predator species control evolution of their prey, etc.

    15. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Funny thing is: Racial superiority based on dna will be very difficult. Even with basic stuff like STRs you have a continuum and not distinct groups. Throw in Epigenetics and all the rest and the genome becomes really difficult to grasp. No, the next dictator will do as the last: Throw in everyone he and his doen't like...

    16. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Lab straints of E. coli have a bone to pick with you. They reproduce through "clones" and evolution still occurs. Even with clones, nothing's perfect, and there's variation within the population.

    17. Re:Designer Humans? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      "Actually quite far, mammals cloning suffer some problems that cheap sequencing will don't help solving."

      These are only a problem for ethical researchers. If you don't mind making a few hundred mutated duds, and then just breeding from the healthy ones, it's easy. Been done for a number of species, humans are no different aside from awkwardly long gestation and time to sexual maturity. The field is far too difficult and expensive (Lots of equipment) for some Mad Scientist to dabble in a basement laboratory though, and multi-million-dollar grants don't come easy

    18. Re:Designer Humans? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Lab straints of E. coli have a bone to pick with you. They reproduce through "clones" and evolution still occurs. Even with clones, nothing's perfect, and there's variation within the population.

      Point.

      Though I meant clones in the "clone army" sense, like if some nightmarish dictator decides that from now on, new people are made by producing a million copes of the "perfect factory worker" template.

    19. Re:Designer Humans? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1, Funny

      Added bonus: It makes the catholic church very angry.

      Well, I consider it a bonus. Even most of the rest of the pro-life movement doesn't object to PGD in relation to serious conditions any more.

    20. Re:Designer Humans? by brunes69 · · Score: 1

      Except for the fact that we aren't adapting. Like the GP posted, modern medicine has all but stopped human evolution, because we have no selection pressures. If anything, we're de-evolving, because people with genes who would not be procreating in centurys past, actually do nowadays. Who knows how many genetic disorders would have died off by now if not for modern medicine.

    21. Re:Designer Humans? by demachina · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not sure how accurate it is but the rudimentary DNA testing National Geographic does appears to be quite good at spotting basic ethnicity, especially Ashkenazi Jews, and they do something far less than full sequencing.

      My family tree includes a Cherokee Indian and it come up with a pretty big blank on that one, but there probably isn't a very big sampling base for that while there probably is a big sampling base for Ashkenazi.

      Even if its not entirely precise it will almost certainly be more precise than measuring facial features, or relying on genealogy like the Nazi's did.

      One thing is a certainty that whatever race the next master race picks, the party leadership should probably get their own DNA sequenced first to make sure they are a member. It was fairly common for aspiring Nazi's to discover they had Jewish blood in their family trees.

      P.S. If you do get your DNA sequenced, also remember you are making a decision for all of your relatives and descendents to expose their genetic history too.

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      @de_machina
    22. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The envelope is for mailing the DNA (eg spit).

    23. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Not to mention the next time a nationalist socialist regime takes power they will have a really easy time identifying the people they want to put in the concentration camps."

      We don't need a DNA profile, you cretin.

      We have already pre-sorted them and deposited them into
      government housing projects. We also know where they live, because that
      information is linked to the receipt of welfare checks. Computers
      and databases will make it easy this time, just as in the 1930s.

    24. Re:Designer Humans? by flyingsquid · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The graphs in the article are just jaw-dropping. This one shows how the cost per genome should drop if sequencing followed Moore's Law, versus how the cost per genome actually scales ahref=http://www.genome.gov/images/content/cost_per_genome.jpgrel=url2html-18366http://www.genome.gov/images/content/cost_per_genome.jpg>.

      With the introduction of next-generation sequencing, the costs have actually dropped much faster than you'd predict if it followed Moore's Law. If it's possible to keep that pace up, then we can expect a $1000 genome in 2014-2015, and a $100 dollar genome two or three years later. My guess is that within 10-20 years we could see the widespread use of genetic screening of embryos for genetic diseases. Right now, this all seems very sci-fi. Like something out of Brave New World, Gattaca, or the Eugenics Wars in Star Trek. But unlike a lot of sci-fi, this stuff isn't fictional because it's technologically difficult/impossible, like a faster than light drive, or a flying car. It's sci-fi because it's too expensive to do right now, but that's going to change rapidly within our lifetimes. The development of tests for Down's Syndrome has already led to a dramatic reduction in the number of children born with the condition, it only follows that the development of new tests will have similar effects with other disorders.

      This raises a lot of very thorny questions. Say a fetus tests positive for a mutation that is strongly associated with early-onset Alzheimer's disease. What's the moral choice? Is it moral to abort the fetus and spare them and their loved ones the suffering of Alzheimer's? Or would having that life be better than never being born at all? Or would you be willing to take the bet that in the next 30 to 60 years, they develop the therapies to cure or prevent the disease?

      It gets more complicated. What if the fetus tested positive for a gene associated with schizophrenia? It might seem cruel to bring someone into the world knowing that's what they had to face. But this is where the story of genetic determinism put forward by modern medicine breaks down. Schizophrenia has a genetic component, true. What's remarkable is that among identical twins (100% shared DNA) the disease is found in both twins less than 50% of the time. Clearly, there's a very strong environmental component (another striking thing that backs this up is that schizophrenia rates are significantly higher in developed countries than in developing countries). Getting these genes makes you vulnerable, true, but there's a better-than-even chance you won't develop the disease at all. Is a less than 50% chance of developing schizophrenia enough to abort a fetus over?

      The issues raised by gene sequencing have been pretty hypothetical up until now. It was too expensive and difficult to look at what genetic cards you'd been dealt. But that's going to change.

    25. Re:Designer Humans? by demachina · · Score: 1

      "We don't need a DNA profile, you cretin."

      Obviously, since my cretinism is due to a dietary deficiency and not a genetic defect you insensitve clod.

      --
      @de_machina
    26. Re:Designer Humans? by Blahah · · Score: 2

      You're confusing evolution with natural selection. Natural selection is just one mechanism by which evolution can occur.

    27. Re:Designer Humans? by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Troll? WTF?! Slashdot moderation is even more broken than APK's fragile psyche.

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    28. Re:Designer Humans? by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      They should use lossy compression. What could possibly go wrong?

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    29. Re:Designer Humans? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nazis don't care about the genetics. They care about scapegoating people powerless to fight back. And then using their example to terrorize each and any other group they construct as the next target. None are spared.

      BTW "nationalist socialist" countries are everywhere. The US has always offered "socialism" (government enforced wealth redistribution) mainly to its richest, and is about the most nationalist country behind N Korea. The UK, Norway, Switzerland and many other European countries are pretty socialist, though more equitable in the wealth redistribution source/destination, and are so nationalist they refuse to join the EU. Japan is pretty nationalist, and more socialist than the US.

      If you're going to scare people with "nazi", just say "nazi". Stop trying to scare people about socialism, as if the Nazi socialism was representative of socialism any more than East Germany's "People's Republic" represented its people. Nazism was founded on propaganda, and sympathetic propaganda outlets continue to peddle its slanders today.

      --

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      make install -not war

    30. Re:Designer Humans? by vivian · · Score: 1

      There are many famous people who were reportedly sickly children - who survived because of healthcare available at the time.
      If they had not been supported by the technology avaialble at the time, society would have been the poorer for it - and arguably, humanity would not have advanced to the point it is today.

      I myself was born 14 weeks prematurely, and would certainly have been doomed even 50 years ago. I have yet to make any earth shattering contributions to humanity, but I certainly don't count myself as an evolutionary failure - I am reasonably fit and have solid abilities in working with technology - though 500 years ago being good in electronics and software development would have been an entirely useless skill.

      To talk of "de- evolving" because we have been able to keep people alive through technology is nonsensical - as long as you are fit enough to reproduce (with or without assistance) you are by definition meeting the criteria to be fit enough to survive, given the current environment.

      Of course there would have been many more who were too busy just getting enough to eat or find a handy cave to live in, if it weren't for technology too, and they too would have been unable to survive without technology.

      How many berry bushes are there to eat around you, and how many nice caves do you know you could move into (and beat all the other people who also wanted to use these same resources) if you had to compete for shelter and food without technology?

    31. Re:Designer Humans? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      "De-evolving" = evolving.

      Evolution is only the change in a genome over time. The human genome increasingly contains genetic values that it had less of before, as they were less able to reproduce. That is evolution. It's "de-evolution" only according to your values, which don't count in measuring genetic change.

      --

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    32. Re:Designer Humans? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      First off, really? Nazis are what your brain goes to immediately when hearing about a medical breakthrough?

      Moreover, in case there was a kernel of real concern behind your trolling, please, name for me a single powerful technology which could NOT be abused at the hands of boogie men?

      "Computers! A NATIONAL SOCIALIST REGIME might use them to SORT PEOPLE based on racial profiling algorithms!!!!"

      "Cheap clean energy might be used by A NATIONAL SOCIALIST REGIME to exterminate people!"

      "Ink and parchment might be used by A NATIONAL SOCIALIST REGIME to write mean stuff against me!!!

      Grow up and stop being paranoid. If we allow -nazis- of all things to gain power again, then we've monumentally fucked up in maintaining our democracy. The price tag on DNA sequencing someone's genome is not going to affect that.

    33. Re:Designer Humans? by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      What? Seriously, what? People with genes would not be procreating? If it wasn't for modern medicine, people wouldn't be getting sick? What?

    34. Re:Designer Humans? by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      Current evolutionary theory (punctuated equalibrium) though holds that species are typically static in terms of evolution. You only get real change when new species pop up and old species die off. Natural selection does very little in stable populations of species. You might be tall, and you might mate with a tall member of the opposite sex, and your offspring might be taller than average, but they have a better chance of mating with someone of average or below height. Unless you get reproductive isolation, you're not going to get much directional change.

      You're not getting advantageous change, but you're not going to get disadvantageous change either. It will likely be a wash, with no change in ANY direction.

    35. Re:Designer Humans? by ganjadude · · Score: 2

      I was all with you until you made the claim that we redistribute weath to the richest. You can badmouth them all you want, I prefer to hope to be one of them, and I know damn well if the top 10% pay 70% of the tax burdon (true) than the distribution of weath is not going in their favor

      Ill say it again a "tax break" is NOT giving money to the rich, its simply taking less money from them

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    36. Re:Designer Humans? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      wost part about that is the people who would have been "selected out" in years past are far more likely to be the ones keeping their inferior genes going, while the top of the line genes are less likely to procreate.

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    37. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know, you can already spit in a cup and be told exactly what percentages of which races you belong to. You don't need a full DNA sequence to determine race. It's pretty easy to determine, even just by looking at someone.

    38. Re:Designer Humans? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Of course we redistribute wealth to the richest. The biggest tax expense is the military, which the richest suck up like oxygen, no matter how bad for security or our economy (to say nothing of health, life or limb). The second biggest tax expense is on medical care (which overlaps a lot with the military), which is spent on doctors who are among the richest (at $172K general, $275K specialist, they make 7-11x the median income), and pharmacos which are among the richest both as workers and as stockholders. Oil corps get $4 BILLION in tax expenses a year, which is a lot even when they're reporting $10B annual profits before the handout. Then there's the $TRILLIONS in handouts to the banks, their executives, top employees and shareholders, which are both by definition and in practice the richest of the rich.The $BILLIONS in US foreign aid is mostly spent on American products; they're sold abroad by the richest, who arrange that cozy loop.

      The top 10% pay 70% of Federal income taxes, but state taxes are mostly regressive (so tax the rich less), and the other substantial taxes like Social Security and sales taxes are purely regressive, so tax the rich less. While the rich have all their income above about $107K (most of their total) protected from the approximately 10% SS tax. The top 10% of wage collectors got over $2.46 TRILLION in 2010, out of only about $6.01T total wages, almost 41%. But the amount of equity trade income that the other $10T in the US GDP pays out a year is vastly more paid to that top 10%, who pay something like half the tax rate on their capital gains than people do on regular income.

      Taking less tax money from the rich is giving free government services to them. Apart from all the direct subsidies, the rich get far more government services, including security, the courts that are where they transact so much business, and all the R&D private labs have abandoned to the public to pay for instead that they immediately harness into products and even less tangible sources of wealth.

      When you said "I prefer to hope to be one of them" you said it all. That motivation is what keeps most Americans who bother to think about the racket hoping it will continue. Of course the vast majority will never be anything but the victims of the racket.

      --

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    39. Re:Designer Humans? by demachina · · Score: 1

      "Nazis don't care about the genetics"

      Doc that is just silly and you know it, did you actually believe that when you wrote it? Every aspect of their doctrine was fixated on eugenics and race. Its something Americans choose to forget but eugenics was very well established in the U.S. during the same period especially with elements of America's upper class.

      Nationalist can be defined several ways but the term applied to nationalist political parties usually centers around a fixation with a nations historically dominant race and protecting it from other races and their influence. Hence in Europe now most nationalist movements are targeting Muslims which have moved in to many European countries in large numbers taking low wage jobs, and becoming the target of the wrath of nationalist parties. The rising French, Hungarian and assorted other right wing nationalist parties are targetting Jews again as well. Apparently substantial numbers of Jews are emmigrating from France to Israel recently due to concerns about the rise of neo Nazi movements there.

      Nationalism can also be referring to flag waving, patriotism, and the arrogant presumption that your nation is superior to all others which is presumably what you are referring to when you say the U.S. is nationalist, but its not exactly the same thing as nationalist parties that are focused on racial issues.

      The U.S. is somewhat challenged in sustaining a true nationalist movement because it is so ethnically diverse, but it it does have its skinheads, KKK and assorted fringe groups. The U.S. was also pretty deeply antisemitic in its own right during the first half of the twentieth century and that was main stream especially in the upper class. More recently the fixation, especially by Republicans, on illegal immigrants(i.e. Hispanics) would be more like a nationalist political movement exploiting racial issues and tensions, exploitonh the tensions caused by the fact that whites will eventually be in a minority in the U.S. if current demographic trends continue.

      --
      @de_machina
    40. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Racial superiority based on dna will be very difficult. Even with basic stuff like STRs you have a continuum and not distinct groups.

      It is not like skin pigmentation breaks down into distinct groups. I don't think that's what the problem is.

    41. Re:Designer Humans? by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      more likely, we will observe such a large decorrelation between phenotype and genotype that racism will become a stupid joke, and extremist groups will have to pick on ideologies instead.

      also, not even the Rudd government would spend 1 grand per person on what amounts to a census.

    42. Re:Designer Humans? by demachina · · Score: 1

      You are the one being naive my friend. It is simply good sense to explore the down sides of technologies instead of reveling purely in the up side, and have the down side bite you in the ass later.

      I guess you are far enough removed from the early twentieth century that you are unaware how nasty eugenics movements were. Most people are vaguely familiar with them at their most horrific in Germany but the naive pretend that something that horrible can't happen again. Well it can. DNA sequencing is a dream come true for eugenics.

      Its largely forgotten and brushed under the rug that there were thriving eugenics movements in the U.S. during the same era as Nazi Germany. It was being championed by a lot of rich, powerful, well known Americans and it was being put in to practice and inflicted on people against their will. It included forced sterilizations of people who had defects like retardation which was also a standard practice in Germany.

      It is simple realism to recognize that most technologies are, in fact, double edged swords. You are being totally naive if you rush to embrace all the upside and choose to completely ignore the down side. It is human nature that some people will embrace and exploit the down side if they see a gain to be had there.

      Cheap, wide spread DNA sequencing will no doubt yield amazing benefits like gene therapies, targeted drugs and maybe even near immortality. Those things should obviously be pursued with gusto.

      It is also almost inevitably going to result in someone pursuing genetic engineering to enhance intelligence and physical abilities of humans, which may result in a genetic arms race where people who aren't enhanced are going to be relegated to a deeply inferior status, and those who are enhanced are going to seek to dominate civilization.

      DNA sequencing is also almost certain to be used to discriminate against people with genetic defects, by insurance companies to set rates, by parents to abort fetuses, or on the extreme scale to sterilize people with undesirable genetic traits, or target people that are deemed inferior.

      Computers are just as much a double edged sword. They bring a world of benefits but they are also enabling massive surveillance states in just about every country on the planet which are being used to target people with dissenting political views with an efficiency that wasn't previously possible.

      At the same time they are spawning new tools for political dissent and freedom movements they are also supporting and enabling increasingly totalitarian states. With widespread biometric ID, pervasive CCTV and license scanners, facial recognition it will eventually be impossible for anyone to move, shop, read, eat, watch a movie, without the permission and authorization of a nation state.

      --
      @de_machina
    43. Re:Designer Humans? by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      modern medicine developed alongside more sophisticated warfare and mass transportation amoung other things.

      so drugs could fix the tuberculosis that would have killed you, but you didn't look before you crossed the street...

      when there's life that's not in total isolation, there will be selection. just not the "surviving in the wilderness" thing, as there's not a lot of wilderness left for most of the population (which is good as we're not really adapted to it these days).

    44. Re:Designer Humans? by similar_name · · Score: 2

      and I know damn well if the top 10% pay 70% of the tax burdon (true) than the distribution of weath is not going in their favor

      Without comparing how much wealth the top 10% have it is meaningless to suggest that because they pay 70% of the taxes that the distribution of wealth is not in their favor. Estimates I've seen show the top 10% having around 3/4 of the wealth so they pay 70% of the taxes and have 75% of the wealth. Or the bottom 90% have 25% of the wealth and pay 30% of the taxes.

    45. Re:Designer Humans? by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      14 weeks? luxury. my wife was born 16 weeks prem :)

    46. Re:Designer Humans? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      and our bottom 50% pay no taxes, which i guess you could say screws us in the 50%-90% range, but plain and simple the largest redistribution of wealth does not go (meaning no money was taken from you or I and given to "the rich") the rich, but it goes to pet projects. The military, one of the few things the constitution protects the procreation of funds for, SS and medicare, something it does not.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    47. Re:Designer Humans? by demachina · · Score: 1

      "not even the Rudd government would spend 1 grand per person"

      The more obvious places you would use it would be to screen people entering elite organizations and the military (like the SS in Germany) or top echelons of a nationalist party or to screen prospective mates prior to marriage to flag genetic defects or undesirable racial history.

      If you were sending someone to a concentration camp anyway, no I dont image you would spend 1K on them.

      Most people don't know it but eugenics originated in the U.S. and Britain. Germany modeled got it form there and modeled their early eugenics programs, especially forced sterilization, on California's laws and program.

      The Rockefeller foundation helped fund the eugenics programs in Germany before the war.

      --
      @de_machina
    48. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Medicine will improve thanks to that.

      Not necessarily. These days, medicine only effectively improves if it is profitable. I offer as a case in point that diabetes has been cured (make note of the date). But, as the cure for diabetes is not going to be nearly as profitable as insulin sales, especially in the US, the chances of a cure ever being approved or even acknowledged in the US by advertising controlled media or Big Pharm controlled government agencies are slim to none. What's great about $1000 sequencing, at least to medical companies, is it can be sold for $10,000 or more... which is affordable enough that insurance can pay for it. I'd like to hear more about the practical applications... though they aren't necessary for me personally to be interested in such technology. Discovery itself is rewarding to mankind as a whole, if not to an individual for-profit company. I wish that medical companies weren't run like Microsoft or Adobe, but they truely are: "Buy our new expensive patented drug that does the same thing as the last drug we sold that is now cheap because the patent on it has just run out. The more expensive drug is better!" Its not cynicism when that is reality.

    49. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sequencing is more like getting the assembly instructions for the skyscraper in a foreign language rather than simply taking a picture of a skyscraper. There is a lot left to be translated but it gets us a good portion closer to the final goal.

      Nope, there's a lot more to be done. Even with the dna sequence, there's a lot of other things that affect whether genes are actually expressed. DNA can be methylated, or the histones that the dna is wrapped around can be modified, etc. Look at epigenetics. Geneticists have been discovering a whole range of ways that DNA function is altered by other factors and these other factors can be passed down from parents to children outside of the DNA sequence.

    50. Re:Designer Humans? by demachina · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That argument is nonsense. It is a standard talking point by the people waging this class warfare thing on the side of the rich.

      Nearly everyone who works in this country pays payroll taxes which range from 10-12.5% since Regean jacked them in the 80's. Payroll taxes alone are nearly as high a percentage as the 15% rich people pay on capital gains.

      Then there is sales tax, the lower classes spend most of their money, while the rich invest most of theirs so the poor once again pay a disproportionate burden of these which is why its called a regressive tax. The rich want even more sales taxes (aka Value Added Taxes(VAT's) because they regressively punish people who spend and give the rich a free pass

      Payroll taxes used to be a couple percent before Reagan jacked them. Social security in particular started producing huge surpluses then that were used to fund Federal budget deficits for decades, in Reagans case to squander money on weapons that were never used. The so called "Trust fund" was completely squandered. To pay for social security and medicare now we either have to tax people some more, borrow it or slash benefits.

      Most seniors who retired in before the 90's put almost nothing in to SS and Medicare and are getting windfall returns. People who started working in or after the 80's have been paying taxes through the nose for programs that will be bankrupt and probably gone by the time they retire. It has become a massively regressive tax on young working people to support often affluent seniors.

      --
      @de_machina
    51. Re:Designer Humans? by catmistake · · Score: 1

      what might someone with a racial superiority agenda do with it some day.

      It's not going to help the race supremists. As science would have it, race is not genetically determined. It is artificially determined by society. Genetically speaking, race as we know it does not even exist.

      I think you have a worthwhile point somewhere, that there may be issues some day with private companies using genome sequencing to filter applicants, perhaps to keep their medical insurance costs lower. So, yes, we must continue to jealously guard our civil rights.

    52. Re:Designer Humans? by similar_name · · Score: 1

      Indeed the 50%-90% are getting screwed from both ends. The bottom half have 2.5% of the wealth so they are also do not pay their fair share of taxes. So if it breaks down that the top 10% pay 70% of the taxes on 75% of the wealth and the bottom 50% pay nothing on 2.5% of the wealth then the 50-90% pay 30% on 22.5% of the wealth. It looks like the middle class is taking on 2.5% of the tax burden for the bottom 50% and 5% for the top 10%.

    53. Re:Designer Humans? by catmistake · · Score: 1

      Its not ever going to be as close as you think it will be. Race is a societal/anthropological determination, and ethnicity is as well. Scientifically, biologically, "race" is entirely arbitrary. Genetically speaking, race does not exist. Consider the fact that at some point in our relatively near evolutionary past, homo sapiens were reduced in number to less than about 60 individuals, and all humans who have lived since are decendant from them. No human alive today is further in relation from you than 37th cousin. There really is no such thing as "race" except as a synthetic convention of individual societies and/or cultures.

    54. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The movie trailer notwithstanding, identity theft, paranoia, OCD, and individual self-sacrifice for the benefit of another are elements of the actual plot, and these things really do occur already. Look around you... it is beyond likely.

    55. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could also find out if your sister was really your sister, or indeed even human.

      What else can we do with his sister? Could genome sequencing help us use her skin to make larger sails?

    56. Re:Designer Humans? by RollinDutchMasters · · Score: 1

      This isn't true at all. Human somatic cell nuclear transfer (SCNT) cloning doesn't work. We don't know why. It partially works (you get early development) if you bootstrap by leaving a partial copy of the oocyte genome in the recipient cell, but that's not developmentally viable past a certain point. There's absolutely a difference for humans and we don't know what it is. Until we do, we can't do human cloning.

    57. Re:Designer Humans? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      It is simple realism to recognize that most technologies are, in fact, double edged swords.

      That was half of my point. Actually, ALL technologies, with the possible exception of vaccines, are double edged swords. But saying "Nazis might use it against us" is not a downside, that's just insane. I think you'll find that bringing up Nazis, zombies, or total nuclear annihilation will, with very specific exceptions, make you look like a raving loon.

    58. Re:Designer Humans? by Riceballsan · · Score: 1

      While partly true, humans have still been evolving even despite modern medicine. Contrary to the movie idiocracy, The average human IQ is in fact going up every generation. Roughly every decade the average IQ goes up 3 points, this is known as the Flynn effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

    59. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a species, we are better off with a broad base of gene stock to select from, as a precaution against calamity. The narrower the base, the more sensitive it is to perturbation. For example, there is a tribe in the Amazonian rain forest that all have a mild form of CF. Not good, right? Well, given the extremely high humidity and temperatures, it is actually advantageous to not process sodium the way "normal" people do. You with your "healthy" genetics are at a significant disadvantage there. To anthropomorphism it, nature made a choice, and mild CF was the winner.

      The more options we have to ensure the survival, or advancement, of the species, the better.

    60. Re:Designer Humans? by demachina · · Score: 1

      "But saying "Nazis might use it against us" is not a downside, that's just insane."

      At this point you aren't arguing, you are just engaging in abusive name calling.

      Whether its racist national socialists or well intended eugenicists paving the road to hell, it is ENTIRELY possible. The entire first half of the twentieth century was full of eugenicists in the U.S., Britain and Germany trying to select out genetic flaws in humans, often using force. California and the Rockefeller foundation pioneered forced sterilization of people with genetic defects. The only reason eugenics died out was because the Germans gave it such a bad name.

      Now that we have tools to actually study genes in detail, to manipulate them and really do eugenics its nearly inevitable its going to return in some form.

      There is a hard right neo nazi regime in Hungary already, the hard right came in third in the last French election, and an antisemitic neo Nazi party gained seats in the last Greek election. With Europe on the verge of a major economic collapse its entirely plausible there will be more neonazis in power in Europe in the near future. Economic collapses breed national socialism and persucution of ethnic minorities who are scapegoated for the collapse.

      P.S. The benefits of vaccines probably out weigh the risks but they have serious down sides too which just shows how biased you are. Some people have violent and dangerous reactions to some vaccines. There is a Federal agency that does nothing but compensate people for adverse reactions to vaccines, its called the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program

      Polio vaccines were made with monkey tissue and some batches were contaminated with a dangerous simian virus that was a carcinogen, some people have also been infected with the disease by the oral vaccine. The mercury in Thimerisol was never proved safe which is why it was removed, but large numbers of people were injected with it. For diseases like chicken pox getting the disease and building natural immunity may be superior to vaccine immunity. People with immune system disorders can actually contract some diseases from vaccines.

      --
      @de_machina
    61. Re:Designer Humans? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      I was offering advice. Few people take you seriously when you bring up "national socialist regimes." Of course, then you start bringing up anecdotal evidence against vaccines and call me biased, so maybe this is not a concern.

      I'll say again, expensive DNA sequencing is not a barrier against the scenario you're talking about and leave it at that.

    62. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FYI. The UK is part of the EU, but not the Eurozone.

    63. Re:Designer Humans? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      1) Nothing indicates that this increase is of genetic origin.

      2) The Flynn effect seems to have stalled in several countries since the 90s.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    64. Re:Designer Humans? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      I'm not a specialist of judaism, but I think that "jewishness" is propagated through the mother, right ? That single characteristic means that it is faaaaar easier to track ethnicity : we usually check for mitochondrial DNA, that are exactly transmitted from mother to children, so checking for the feminine ascendancy is far easier than the ethnic group that accept purely male descendants to be part of the ethnic group.

      There are a lot of claims about Ashkenazi jews and at least half of them is pure propaganda. When checking fact about them, be cautious about this. That said, they do have a specific genetic history, there could be interesting features in their genomes.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    65. Re:Designer Humans? by RivenAleem · · Score: 2

      But you are not taking into consideration 2 factors. Parents want a limited number of children (with exceptions). Parents for all intents and purposes have unlimited embryos (only limited by the number of ova the woman has). If sequencing can come down to under 100$ (who's to say it won't be next to free) then you supply 200 ova, enough sperm and you develop embryos in the lab.

      Now when they have become a zygote you DNA sequence the lot to find the best (with least flaws/potential vulnerabilities) and then implant enough of them to get 1-2 successful children and the rest are discarded.

      When it becomes wholesale, instead of on a case by case basis, it will become the norm and what is ethical will change to fall in line.

      You might complain now about the 190 embryos that are discarded, but in 10-20 years time? Most people see Eugenics as a bad thing, partially because of the Nazis and partly because, right now, it is only in the realm of the super rich. But if you read the first line of the Wikipedia Article,

      Eugenics is the "applied science or the bio-social movement which advocates the use of practices aimed at improving the genetic composition of a population"

      Then you see, that there really isn't anything to be feared from using Science to produce the greatest success rates for our offspring. We do it for food, scientifically picking breeds of animals and plants to produce the best traits in offspring, and we subconsciously do it ourselves when selecting partners (how often have you looked at someone from a different race and considered him/her 'exotic'.) This is your body telling you that such a diverse pairing of very different DNA lineages would be greatly strengthening for your progeny.

      If couples were able to go to a 'bank' and select embryos that had been paired together from extremely diverse and strengthening DNA lines, who's to say it isn't a much more efficient and ultimately acceptable way of producing the best human race?

      The problem, you see, is that in the film Gattaca they differentiated between those who were and were not born with help. What happens when nobody is born without help? Or like the old line used to describe Picard's baldness (paraphrase: in the 22nd century they wouldn't have cured baldness, they just wouldn't care) would the Eugenically developed people be more benign? Would they, perhaps be more accepting of un-assisted people than we fear them to be?

      You are going to get it, it's not a mater of if, but when. The sooner we get over it and move on to accepting it for the benefit it will provide and not for the loss to society it might entail (that early onset Alzheimer's child might cure cancer!!!) the better. We can instead produce fewer, more meaningful children, instead of relying on pot luck as we do now.

      It's a numbers game, and we're on the brink of winning it.

    66. Re:Designer Humans? by demachina · · Score: 1

      There is nothing "anecdotal" about the things I posted on vaccines. They are well known facts. Vaccines do in fact have down sides, the benefits generally out weigh the down side so they are usually worth the risk, but blindly ignoring the downside as seems to be your style is unnecessiarly wreckless. How do you explain the fact there is a Federal agency to compensate people who have adverse outcomes with vaccines?

      I'll leave you to go on your tech utopian way, pretending that all tech is wonderful and nothing bad ever happens. I assume you must be employed in medicine or biotech so you have a vested career interest in altering reality in favor of your chosen fields.

      --
      @de_machina
    67. Re:Designer Humans? by phorm · · Score: 2

      another striking thing that backs this up is that schizophrenia rates are significantly higher in developed countries than in developing countries

      a) How many people with schizophrenia would actually get to a doctor/professional to be diagnosed in poorer countries
      b) How many would survive to adulthood and/or long enough to have children, etc?

    68. Re:Designer Humans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But even then you have environmental pressures, random mutations, protein folds, experiences, degradation, and inherit randomness of the mind. While the 'perfect factory worker' template may give you identical starting points and similar end points, each individual will still be an individual (worse for the dictator, it only takes one variation that is interested in removing the dictator to influence all the others, the mutant will have much greater insight into how to convince the rest of its 'run' of the correctness of its approach).

    69. Re:Designer Humans? by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      Several uses for cheap sequencing, beyond paternity:

      - Identify allergens in food
      - Positively ID species used for meat (lots of cheap sushi isn't what it is sold as)
      - Discover unlicensed use of GM crops
      - Identify dangerous molds / fungi in ambient air

      None of these is particularly attractive at $1000 a pop, but if you drop to $100 or even $10 then you will see widespread adoption.

    70. Re:Designer Humans? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1
      Wiki explains the existence of the vaccine court system:

      The program was established by the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA), passed by the United States Congress in response to a threat to the vaccine supply due to a 1980s scare over the DPT vaccine. Despite the belief of most public health officials that claims of side effects were unfounded, large jury awards had been given to some plaintiffs, most DPT vaccine makers had ceased production, and officials feared the loss of herd immunity.

      In other words, it exists because it was a target for greedy lawyers and needed to be protected.

      I'll leave you to go on your tech utopian way, pretending that all tech is wonderful and nothing bad ever happens

      How do you get that from "ALL technologies, with the possible exception of vaccines, are double edged swords"? Or from anything else I said?

    71. Re:Designer Humans? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      I think that the DNA duplication mechanism used by bacteria is too creative to be considered a producer of true clones. Evolution has fine-tuned binary fission in each species to have a very carefully-controlled mutation rate. The label 'clone' should be reserved for something where mutation isn't potentially advantageous, like stem cells dividing and differentiating into somatic tissue, or a starfish dividing in half.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    72. Re:Designer Humans? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      It's a non-standard use of the word, but actually I really have to disagree with you. Genes evolve to meet new demands in response to stimuli. The rate of directed evolution (and conservation) can be measured (and it has been) by comparing large data sets, yielding (for proteins) a ratio between synonymous and non-synonymous mutations. If anything can be considered biological devolution—besides certain Star Trek plots that actually require knowledge of information not stored in the genome (in fact, it would require time travel)—then surely it must be the random mutations inflicted upon genes that are no longer under any selection pressure; i.e. those that do not convey any evolutionary benefit.

      Our genome is riddled with such material; only about 9% of the total mass of unique DNA carries information of any importance. Amongst that huge amount of nothingness are many pseudogenes (a broad term describing all sequences with proper starts and stops but aren't expressed) that correspond to functional genes in other, related species. Many animals, for example, have completely lost the ability to process certain foods simply because they didn't need them.

      In the future we may very well lose a lot of capabilities to respond to pressure as a result of the absence of selection. I could see the human immune system and genes that support the musculature degrading substantially, for example, to the point that our distant descendants would be severely disadvantaged over athletes of today. This loss of capacity, when considered from the long perspective of the genome, is also a form of devolution, as the species no longer has the ability to respond to dangers as it once did; on a similarly larger scale we'd be less well-suited to handle our ever-changing world. Tens if not hundreds of millions of years of work could very go well the drain in a couple of thousand years of such stagnation.

      Technically it's progress, but a cathedral is being demolished.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    73. Re:Designer Humans? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      Some day I'm going to print stickers that say "Blame it on the epigenome" and hand them out at conferences.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    74. Re:Designer Humans? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      Fortunately, it's not very likely, at least not in the US. Hiring discrimination is a sacred cow due to the civil rights movement, and genetic screening of employees has been illegal since 2003.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    75. Re:Designer Humans? by similar_name · · Score: 1

      In the case of male lineage couldn't you look at the Y chromosome? Is it too small to variate much? I have no idea how its complexity (unique points of mutations?) compares to mitochondrial dna.

    76. Re:Designer Humans? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      No, not every aspect of their doctrine was fixated on eugenics and race. They killed millions of Catholics, homosexuals, communists, trade unionists and others, especially the extremely hybrid Gypsies, without regard to actual genetics. Hitler was not only not Aryan, but had Jewish ancestors - as did many if not most of the other Nazis pursuing genocide among other diabolical tyrannies.

      Nazis cared about power. Race was a means to that end. Of course such means are part of the end, and Nazis did spend a lot of time on genocide and racist abuses and propaganda. But not because they actually cared about genetics as much as they cared about power.

      Nationalism is properly defined simply as valuing one's nation extremely highly, typically devaluing any other nation to the extreme. A value that motivates competition with other nations that usually becomes violent, as there's no moral inhibition in harming "inferior" nations. The US is not at all alone in this, though its not usually as violent towards say France as it is towards say countries primarily inhabited by people who aren't White. You are correct in identifying some current US nationalism, but it goes even further: this week the Republican presidential candidate is embracing the rich idiot pushing the idea that the first Black president couldn't have been born in Hawaii, but must be a foreigner. Because that kind of racism is not just very popular in a large minority of Republicans, it's not rejected by the large majority of them. Obama must be Kenyan and inferior - nationalism in the service of racism. Not at all unique to the US.

      Racism, nationalism and socialism are practiced more or less by many countries, and have been for centuries (and longer). They are not so simple as to be thrown around as if the Nazis define nationalism, racism, socialism, national socialism, or any other value system. The Nazis valued power above all, mainly the power to destroy as the power to control. They called themselves all kinds of things that they weren't, and all kinds of things they were that didn't really matter.

      Most nationalist socialist governments have proven for generations they're not cataloging anyone for extermination. In fact they tend to be among the most accepting of diversity. And very specifically socialism is very different from fascism, even if they do have some configurations in common, like highly centralized government and economy . Nazis were the epitome of fascism, but called themselves socialists because socialism was popular and fascism wasn't.

      The point is that if you're going to point out that genome sequencing is highly abusable by a government like the Nazis, just say "Nazis". Saying "nationalist socialists" just confuses the issue.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    77. Re:Designer Humans? by DaleSwanson · · Score: 1

      But you are not taking into consideration 2 factors. Parents want a limited number of children (with exceptions). Parents for all intents and purposes have unlimited embryos (only limited by the number of ova the woman has). If sequencing can come down to under 100$ (who's to say it won't be next to free) then you supply 200 ova, enough sperm and you develop embryos in the lab.

      Now when they have become a zygote you DNA sequence the lot to find the best (with least flaws/potential vulnerabilities) and then implant enough of them to get 1-2 successful children and the rest are discarded.

      When it becomes wholesale, instead of on a case by case basis, it will become the norm and what is ethical will change to fall in line.

      I agree that this is both the most logical and most likely form of using genetics on embryos. However, I see a problem with the massive selective pressure this will create. As you point out we already do this to some degree, but the degree matters. Genes are complex things, and while I have no doubt we will one day have a very thorough understanding, that day will likely lag behind the ability to screen embryos.

      What happens when a gene that increases risk of Alzheimer's disease also confers other positive traits? No parent will take the chance on that gene, and it will disappear in a generation. The same will happen to many genes with any possible negative qualities. The result will be a much less genetically diverse population. As I already pointed out, many genes that will be wiped out will also have positive traits associated with them. By only selecting the 'best' embryos the human race could end up much worse off.

    78. Re:Designer Humans? by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      We can just hope that when we have the Knowledge to perform these procedures, we also have the Wisdom to perform them right.

    79. Re:Designer Humans? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      1. De-evolution could mean reversion to a previous state of the genome. Otherwise it's mutations contrary to fitness, which is astronomically improbable except in an extremely brief series of generations (nonfitness is a rapid terminator).

      2. We just don't really know the importance of the info in the DNA that we currently don't recognize as important. We didn't think methylation of the DNA rails was important information until just a few years ago, and now it's the main repository of epigenetics.

      3. Given the persistence of art, especially in setting romantic standards, I don't see humans reproducing more with substantially less musculature than what we see in pictures, sculptures and movies (and eventually in holograms/etc). And what you describe is just evolution. It's "devolution" only in the arbitrary sense that it's genetic change in a way that wouldn't be fit today, or that you don't like. It's just evolution. If the environment cycled between two states mutually exclusive of fitness to reproduce, over and over for millions of years, and a species mutated over time to remain fit, back and forth, which phase of the mutation cycle would be the "devolution"? It's all just evolution.

      The only real devolution was a New Wave band from Ohio known for the song "Whip It".

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    80. Re:Designer Humans? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      The argument I'm making is that mutation contrary to fitness is occurring, it's just that the stimulus is in the very likely (near?) future, not the present. Think of a plant that loses the ability to handle cold temperatures because it goes through a few centuries of warmth—the coldness is a predictable part of its environment, but because it got lucky and was out of it for a moment, the mutations were non-deleterious at the time. The warm climate was only a temporary part of its environment. The series of generations doesn't need to be extremely brief, but 'environment' needs to be redefined to be broader if there's evidence the organism has specialized genes for handling different conditions that would take more than one generation to observe. To my understanding, this sort of long-term epigenetic variability is typical of the tomato for factors like soil quality, sunlight quality, summer temperatures, and the duration and harshness of winter. It's not very hard to imagine a selection mechanism at work for needing to keep up with predictable (or at least common) changes in one's immediate environment that may prove deleterious to biological fitness.

      Civilization isn't a long-term environment, either, and even if the musculature idea was a little far-fetched, I truly believe that the immune system is at risk of some degradation if our living conditions continue to become more sterile. Suppose we perfect air filtering, and can guarantee that no one breathes anything but pure air, with its familiar nitrogen/oxygen/water/carbon/argon/etc. ratios. (More cynically, imagine we destroy the atmosphere on Earth and have to wear oxygen tanks.) Ignoring disease, this would severely stunt the body's ability to cope with foreign matter in the lungs and bloodstream. The dependence on the absence of such irritants, however, would just be artificial; such a human would only be able to survive on that filtration system, and wouldn't be able to handle present-day Earth, or the atmosphere of another planet that happened to be non-toxic and had a decent amount of oxygen, much less Earth's own atmosphere if the people in this little musing cleaned it up to conditions that their ancestors (us) considered bearable.

      So—just because you don't need it right now doesn't mean it isn't obvious you won't need it later. From the perspective of the entire history of the species, I would call the formation of such a dependence, primarily characterized by loss of gene function as it is, a form of devolution. The amount of information contained in the genome is being reduced and replaced with noise.

      Unrelatedly, I'm not sure I agree with your point #2 very much. Ignoring epigentic annotations, the nucleotides themselves just appear to be filler (perhaps the fact that I was only talking about As, Cs, Gs, and Ts wasn't clear in my post.) They mutate too rapidly to be under selection. Perhaps the sequences are evolutionarily constrained so that hairpins can form for pairing up chromosomes during reproduction, but I distinctly recall a Nature paper from a few years ago making the case that the primary purpose of such sequences was large-scale chromatin remodelling, in that it gave enough slack so that every promoter could be oriented toward the outside of a loose sphere.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  2. Cool by revelation60 · · Score: 2

    My genome would make an awesome screensaver!

    1. Re:Cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My genome would make an awesome-er screensaver!

  3. Even more hypocondriacs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will lead to an exponential increase in hypocondriacs
    Also, selective breeding would become much more common and people would be prevented from going into careers,etc if their genes arent a good match (someone with a high probability for Alzheimers may be prevented from entering a knowledge based workforce for example)
    not to mention the preventive measures that may scale up massively. Right now Americans have peanut free towns, this disease may spread to the rest of the world as well

    1. Re:Even more hypocondriacs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alzheimers affects people in advanced age, usually after they retire. I understand your point but you gave a bad example.

  4. Legal system too by vlm · · Score: 2

    'A $1,000 genome in less than one day was not even on the radar, but will transform the clinical applications of sequencing."

    Cheap enough that it'll transform the legal system too. "Guess who's not your daddy?"

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Legal system too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, it's getting towards the point where it could become a standard test to run at birth... with related issues of awkwardly revealing paternity.

    2. Re:Legal system too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It can't reveal anything about paternity or non-paternity unless the dad has his DNA sequenced too.

      Still, I see your point - this is why some places (e.g. Germany, France, New York state) restrict access to paternity testing (you need court orders in those places).

    3. Re:Legal system too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Still, I see your point - this is why some places (e.g. Germany, France, New York state) restrict access to paternity testing (you need court orders in those places).

      Oh wow, that's ass backwards. It should be legally impossible for a man to take on responsibility for a newborn without first having been informed whether he is the father of the child. So not impossible to take on responsibility for someone else's child, but impossible to do it without knowing about it. This is exactly the situation that women enjoy and there is no reason to continue the inequity when modern technology makes that not necessary.

    4. Re:Legal system too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not the father having access that is the problem. It's other people who go about interfering.

      I am not aware of all laws everywhere, but anywhere that has updated their legal code does allow the alleged father to offer a dispute.

      Some places still have the marriage presumption but that's old law before paternity testing.

    5. Re:Legal system too by gmhowell · · Score: 2

      Plenty of guys paying for kids who aren't theirs. My favorite is that when a putative father began having doubts a few years later, he got a test. It showed he was not the father. Court said "tough shit, we already decided you are". Here's one case. It's not the one I was looking for, but it's close enough. My favorite is the case where DNA proved man A was not the father. Further testing showed it was man B. Man A and woman got divorce. Man A pays child support. Woman marries man B. Man A turns up the above mentioned DNA results. Man A still stuck with the bills, even though the biological father is now married to the mother and raising the child.

      Condoms men. Seriously. Or vasectomy.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    6. Re:Legal system too by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      best solution to that is a fertility calendar and tickets to an isolated location.

    7. Re:Legal system too by WillHirsch · · Score: 1

      (you need court orders in those places)

      It should be legally impossible for a man to take on responsibility for a newborn...

      How do you expect to make a man take responsibility for a newborn except by court order?

    8. Re:Legal system too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because of the argument that acting as a father is important, and comes from rather old tradition.

      The same could impact a mother with implanted fertilized zygotes, and probably has, but I don't care to check the cases.

      The real key is updating laws.

    9. Re:Legal system too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you know now why all women want to be married?

  5. I work for one of these companies... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    ... and the oddest day of my life recently was finally hooking up the sequencer software to the literature database-- both of which were running locally on my laptop. I was on a city bus with no WiFi and suddenly I could sequence yeast and mosquito genomes, and find out what kind they were.

    The problem with this article is it discuses the $1000 sequencing part, which is all data analysis, but not the other $1000, the chemistry part. That, too, is coming down in price, just not as fast.

    1. Re:I work for one of these companies... by structural_biologist · · Score: 2

      You've got it backwards. The cost of materials for sequencing is dropping to $1k, but the data analysis (stitching together all of the short DNA reads to assemble a full genome sequence) still costs well in excess of $1k. For example, a 2011 Chemical and Engineering News article suggests that the cost of the analysis was still ~$100k.

    2. Re:I work for one of these companies... by RDW · · Score: 1

      For the human genome, where the reference sequence is already known, the shorts reads can simply be aligned to the genome with free software in a relatively short time on a decent PC, so the cost of the basic analysis is currently less than that of the sequencing (though on an average workstation class computer the time required for alignment, finishing and variant calling may well be longer than the sequencing run!). The linked article is talking about the more nebulous but obviously greater cost of doing a bunch of research on large genomic data sets to look for disease associations and drug targets.

  6. $1000 by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

    Cost of chemicals? Machines I think cost in the neighborhood of 100-300k. Doing a complete sequence in less than a day would be great but still not really practical. Is a lab going to have 100 of these bad boys or are only ~250 people (assuming labs don't work weekends) going to get sequenced a year per hospital or whatever? Gene sequencing in general isn't very scientific they don't start with a testable hypothesis and then do measurements. They try to test everything and then come up with a hypothesis to explain it. Having your genes sequenced completely is most likely not necessary. What is needed is a better understanding of what is important and just sequencing those parts. I don't need a $1000 test to tell me what colour my hair is.

    1. Re:$1000 by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      I don't need a $1000 test to tell me what colour my hair is.

      I am bald you insensitive clod.

    2. Re:$1000 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't need a $1000 test to tell me what colour my hair is.

      I am bald you insensitive clod.

      What does that have to do with OPs hair color?

    3. Re:$1000 by RollinDutchMasters · · Score: 2

      You're missing the point. You don't need a thousand-dollar test to tell you what color your hair is. You do need a thousand dollar test to tell you how your specific cancer is disregulated, and which pathways which have been damaged can be targeted by non-cytotoxic chemotherapy drugs. That's the true revolution behind cheap sequencing; it tells you EXACTLY what the problem is. This means you can move from drugs that kill everything, hoping that they kill cancer faster, to drugs that inactivate or inhibit very specific things which are only present in the cancer. That is the revolution. That's what we need sequencing for.

    4. Re:$1000 by RDW · · Score: 1

      If Oxford Nanopore lives up to their hype, we can expect the price of instruments to fall dramatically. Their technology is supposedly very scalable, with the cheapest gadget packaged as a self-contained disposable $900 (!) USB stick sequencer:

      http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/03/oxford-nanopore-sequencing-usb/

      This isn't genome level, as it will 'only' do a few hundred megabases before it burns out, but the workhorse instruments will use many more replaceable nanopores in parallel, packaged in rackable server-like enclosures.

      We may well reach a point where it becomes cheaper and easier to run off a whole genome than to do more than a handful of gene-specific assays.

    5. Re:$1000 by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      So then it is at least a $2000 problem than right? They have to sequence your healthy tissue and the tumor to determine what will kill one and not the other. Also assuming that the tumor doesn't have multiple types of mutations.

    6. Re:$1000 by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      There are all kinds of subsets available, actually. You can get a microarray analysis done for a couple hundred dollars; that can screen for most hereditary diseases for which the mutations are known. You can even have full-exome sequencing done (all of the parts of DNA that we know turn into protein sequences), which will tell you your hair colour, but can't detect fragile X syndrome. And you can even ask to have only certain cherry-picked parts of your genome sequenced (in fact there are some parts we still can't sequence because they're so repetitive and meaningless)—but there's still a fixed cost overhead.

      The thousand-dollar genome is mostly a benchmark, not necessarily something that will be medically applicable exactly as sold. And yes, these are only chemical costs, not the equipment; it's assumed in how the question is posed that any company that could offer such a service would very quickly recoup costs on volume alone.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  7. Missing the big picture by brunes69 · · Score: 2

    Sequencing a gene is not like some kind of one-time exam. Your genes don't change. Once they are sequenced, that's it - you can use the results forever.

    If it was only $1000 or even $5000 to sequence your genes, it is more than a worthwhile investment, as you can then compare your sequence against new things constantly being discovered as the state of gene science improves.

    Like others have pointed out, at this kind of price point a lot of parents would simply opt to have their child sequenced at birth, to hope to prepare them for a safer future.

    1. Re:Missing the big picture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, your genes change slightly, for example when damage causes cancer. If you baselined yourself at childhood, you could find the cancer genes later in life by sampling the tumor. Your genes are always slightly drifting during your life (replication damage) and merging between generations (reproductive changes).

    2. Re:Missing the big picture by jd · · Score: 1

      Uhhh, not true. Genes change, due to retrotranspons moving genes around and retroviruses (there's a lot of them) adding new genes to your DNA. It is now known through sequencing that every brain cell in your brain has a unique genome, for example. Your genome is also radically altered throughout your time as a zygote, it turns out. There comes a time when the DNA stabilizes, but for a while it is prone to all kinds of mutations.

      Any human that was not born as a twin likely carries at least two significantly different genomes from the very start. It turns out that humans produce far more twins than expected, but that one of the twins is then fully absorbed into the other - usually as an organ - very early on. When this process starts late or is incomplete, you get "siamese twins".

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    3. Re:Missing the big picture by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      Not to mention not all genes are active not sure if the sequencing would also say which ones are active too.

    4. Re:Missing the big picture by jd · · Score: 1

      No it wouldn't, as most of that data is kept outside of the genome itself.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    5. Re:Missing the big picture by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      As mentioned by another poster genes change, they also get more or less activated depending on environmental factors, chance events etc. Everyone would likely have hundreds of things that their gene says they are more likely to get in their lifetime. They would then have to be continually monitored to see if those genes have become active, would get paranoid when having kids. "Oh my God you have the same really low risk gene as I do and it has been shown in a couple contradictory papers to have a slight correlation to a higher than average chance of clumsiness we shouldn't have kids then just to be safe.". Not to mention the big brother risk where something is shown to make it more likely that you'd be a criminal. I could see the FBI saying something like "Oh every serial killer has this gene lets have these people all report in once a month with what they did and were they were "just in case". Even if only 0.001% of people with that gene turn into killers they'd still piss all over your freedom because they know that the killers are all in that group somewhere. "What you don't want to make our streets safe? Do you have something to hide?"

      Or the more basic: insurance companies just use the hundred things that you might get based on your genes as an excuse to jack your premiums. "You have no family history, well you've just been lucky but you are a higher risk because you have this gene so we are going to have to charge you more."

  8. Not just for humans by Blahah · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's worth pointing out that it's not just human genomes which will be cheap. I'm excited about the applications this has in biology at large. If sequencing costs continue dropping at anything like their current rate of decrease, whole genome sequencing will soon be opened up to all sorts of interested parties. That has huge implications for taxonomy and phylogenetics, conservation, crop breeding and plant science as a whole.

    If genome sequencing costs drop, that means other types of sequencing costs drop too. For example RNA-Seq, which lets us see which genes are currently active at a given point in time, in a sample from an organism. Things which are currently conceptually possible but prohibitively expensive, such as comparing the active genes across hundreds or thousands or species in a particular state, or across a species in hundreds of different environmental conditions, will become possible. Our understanding of life processes will deepen by an order of magnitude, with inevitable benefits in biotech, medicine and agriculture.

    1. Re:Not just for humans by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      That has huge implications for taxonomy and phylogenetics

      One of the most exciting potential projects I've seen recently is a proposal to sequence 10,000 vertebrate genomes, which would sample nearly every genus. One of the project leaders, David Haussler, has previously worked on extrapolating backward from known mammalian genomes to guess at the genome of the common ancestor (100-plus million years ago). That was with several orders of magnitude less data - if they actually pull this project off, we'll be able to understand vertebrate evolution at a level of detail unimaginable today. As usual with these kind of projects, of course, the data analysis is going to be far more difficult than the actual sequencing.

  9. Superb Bird of Paradise smile - WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, this might fit into this topic: can someone explain how the Superb Bird of Paradise evolved to display a smiley face with its feathers to attract females? I mean, birds don't smile!! WTF?!? That's just so weird, and so intriguing. See it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dx2CUMtZ-0

  10. Still a $100K Sequencing Bill by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2

    Even when a complete genome sequence run costs the lab $1000, it's going to cost the patient $100,000 on their bill. Because nothing exists in the medical industry to reduce the prices charged to patients. Even insurance corps' leveraging their own and their cartel's buying power to reduce prices paid to medical providers then slap their own extreme charges and fees (and waste) to raise the retail cost back up.

    Though not as much in Europe. So Europeans will get to consume American medical exports like quick, cheap sequencing technology. Evolution in action.

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    make install -not war

    1. Re:Still a $100K Sequencing Bill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even when a complete genome sequence run costs the lab $1000, it's going to cost the patient $100,000 on their bill. ...

      Though not as much in Europe. So Europeans will get to consume American medical exports like quick, cheap sequencing technology.

      And you put your finger on why health care is so expensive in the US. Americans pay top dollar for health care while european countries prohibit medical companies from charging excessive prices.

      The thing I find funny about the health care debate in the US is that all the talk is about who should pay for health care. I've heard nothing about reducing the cost of medicines and treatments.

      Of course on the other hand developing and testing medicines and treatments is expensive, somebody has to pay for it and the US health system seems to be stuck with the bill.

    2. Re:Still a $100K Sequencing Bill by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Of course on the other hand developing and testing medicines and treatments is expensive, somebody has to pay for it and the US health system seems to be stuck with the bill.

      If you'd like to believe healthcare is so expensive in the US because so much of it goes to medical R&D go ahead, but I don't think that has much to do with reality. It pays for a lot of health insurance companies, lawyers, drug marketing and a ton of CYA tests and procedures as well as payola all around, of course yes on a global scale the US is a rich country and buys many expensive drugs but not more than expected. What you do have is some incredibly wealthy people which may advance the state of the art in the best care money can buy, which can have trickle-down effects into general healthcare, but not the 99%. They just have an inefficient and expensive system.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:Still a $100K Sequencing Bill by Biotech_is_Godzilla · · Score: 1

      So Europeans will get to consume American medical exports like quick, cheap sequencing technology. Evolution in action.

      Ha! You know the original, and still the most popular method of DNA sequencing (chain-termination/Sanger sequencing) was invented in Cambridge in the UK, and wasn't patented, so anyone could use it, right? And Solexa sequencing, currently the biggest name in next-generation sequencing, was also invented in Cambridge, UK (though they do charge for that, and it has now been bought by Illumina, a US company)?

      The US seems to always be the best at successfully commercialising things, but it's not the only place innovation happens!

    4. Re:Still a $100K Sequencing Bill by schlachter · · Score: 1

      The sequencing is $1K; but the interpretation and analysis of these genes will rely on large datasets and advanced, patented algorithms and methods...so in the total cost calc...the $1K will actually be the cheap part. Much like computer hardware is a commodity with razor thin margins but software/consulting are expensive with high margins.

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    5. Re:Still a $100K Sequencing Bill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't disagree that "health insurance companies, lawyers, drug marketing and a ton of CYA tests and procedures" aren't a big factor in heath insurance costs, they are, but that wasn't my point.

      You didn't contradict my assertion that the US pays more for drugs and treatment than european countries because european countries regulate drug and treament prices (and Canada, which is why so many people try to order their drugs from there).

      Nor did you contradict my assertion that virtually all the health care debate focuses on who should pay for care; i.e., government, insurance companies, rather than focusing on reducing health care costs, especially drugs and treatment.

      What you do have is some incredibly wealthy people which may advance the state of the art in the best care money can buy, which can have trickle-down effects into general healthcare, but not the 99%.

      This is where I disagree with you. It's not "some incredibly wealthy people" who "advance the state of the art". For example, the recent spate of experimental (expensive) face transplants weren't done on "incredibly wealthy people", they were done on poor smucks who needed it and paid for by insurance companies (or by hospitals who ultimately pass the cost onto insurance companies).

      Or organ transplants are so common now that we forget that they are also very expensive procedures including pre- and post-operative care, and transplants are not limited to "incredibly wealthy people" (and there's always new anti-rejection drugs being tested).

    6. Re:Still a $100K Sequencing Bill by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Actually, it will go more like this:

      1. You call up the lab and tell them that you're interested in a whole genome sequence. The lab will tell you that it is illegal to perform this service without a prescription.

      2. So, you talk to you doctor. He asks you why you need one - what is wrong with you. You explain your symptoms (since pure curiosity is not justification for a medical "procedure"). He bills you $80.

      3. You end up getting blood tests, x-rays, and every other test imaginable that you have to pay for. Eventually the doctor decides that a whole genome test for xyz disease is justifiable and orders it. He bills you another $80.

      4. You spit in a tube and mail it to the lab.

      5. The lab spends $1k to sequence your genome. The computer analyzes your genome and decides that you don't have xyz disease. The lab mails a report to your doctor saying that you don't have xyz disease, sends you a bill for $10k, and deletes all traces of your genome.

      6. You go to your doctor and he tells you that you don't have xyz disease (and bills you another $80). He then says, maybe you have abc disease instead, and since there is this whole genome test for it all you need to do is spit in another tube...

      7a. You don't have insurance, so when you get the two bills for $10k you call the lab and beg and plead and they reduce the bill to $6k because they're really nice people. You take out another mortgage and pay the bill.
      7b. You do have insurance, so when the bill arrives the insurance company pays $2k, and tells you to pay the lab $200.

      8. Politicians go on about how all of this is the fault of insurance companies, despite the fact that they only thing they did in this whole process is save some poor guy $4k (or $8k if they're dumb enough to pay list price).

      Believe it or not there are efforts to ban the few existing personal genome services that already exist. They want you to only get tested if a doctor orders it, have the results sent to your doctor, and only send the specific results that are requested, that way you can have the same test done 14 more times over your life.

    7. Re:Still a $100K Sequencing Bill by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      The insurance company is the part of your story that tells your doctor it's not paying anything for some test that's probably going to say you don't have xyz. Or because it's experimental. Or because you already had xyz when you got the insurance. Or because chewbacca - they're not paying. Then you die of xyz.

      You also left out the part where you pay the insurance company $1.5M over the course of your career to pay for what should have cost $100K in $200:hour doctor bills, but instead paid out $800K in in $600:h doctor bills padded with lots of unnecessary tests and other waste.

      The $8K list price is what the medical providers charge to make up for the insurers paying only $2K, and having the power to enforce it.

      If you don't understand that, compare the private US insurer model to the European public insurer model. Or to the US Medicare public insurer model (but remember to adjust for the far sicker population that Medicare covers).

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      make install -not war

    8. Re:Still a $100K Sequencing Bill by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Well, the big issue with insurance in the US is that the system is opaque to consumers, and consumers have almost no choice.

      In the US 95% of people with private health insurance get it from their employer. My insurance is great and I've never had the issues you describe - probably better than what you get in Europe. Many others do NOT have that experience. The problem is that it is almost impossible to comparison shop plans, and even if you could, the only way you could pick the plan of your choice is to change employers.

      As far as banning treatments goes - this happens for two reasons generally. The usual stated reason (which may or may not be the case) is that the treatment has not been proven to be effective. This is usually grounds for rejection in Europe as well, and rightly so (why make others pay for a treatment that isn't even proven to work?). The other reason (usually under the guise of the first) is that the company simply doesn't want to pay for it. Usually the latter comes up if your employer opts for the cheap plan. Again, for the consumer it is almost impossible to evaluate.

  11. Synthetic Womb? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    We can sequence genes. We can edit the sequence of many genes we've identified to switch the phenotype they express among meaningful choices. We can edit retroviruses to make them edit genes from A to B in living cells. We can combine sperm and egg IVF to produce a blastocyst. We can even insert full cell nuclei into collected foreign eggs, which we can cultivate into a blastocyst in a lab. We can convert skin cells into egg cells for that purpose.

    How close are we to a synthetic womb that can gestate a full blastocyst into a newborn baby?

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    make install -not war

    1. Re:Synthetic Womb? by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      surrogacy is here now, and quite affordable. like everything else, we can outsource it to a developing country.

    2. Re:Synthetic Womb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One thing we can't do is complete human sequencing. When they say "full sequencing" they mean 95% or better, with errors, and with a partially haploid sequencing (half a chromosome). Complete human sequencing has not been done yet because it is too expensive to get the last couple of percent, and to get the errors out. We don't have a single bootable human genome yet (nope, not the Human Genome Project, and not Venter.) And these $1000 deals won't be complete either, they will just be "full".

    3. Re:Synthetic Womb? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      That's not a synthetic womb, it's an outsourced womb. The rest of the phases I itemized can all be automated. But the role of the womb seems to require a human for gestation.

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      make install -not war

    4. Re:Synthetic Womb? by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      yes, but the sources of the original cells are also not automated. presumably the originator of the egg cell that was modified would also have some form of womb.

      otherwise we're creating cells molecule-by-molecule, which though cool and sci-fi, is a little out of reach at the moment.

  12. keeping accurate score by seqnerd · · Score: 1

    When we say sequence a 'genome' for $1k, $10k, etc., we need to specify what constitutes "done". If 100% completion (no gaps) is the bar, then even the initial sequencing of the first genome (for $1bn) isn't done yet. But if the goal is to, say, learn the sequences of the most informative parts of the genome (common variants, say) then we are already way past the $1k barrier.

  13. The scary thing is the artificial womb by INowRegretThesePosts · · Score: 2

    What scares the shit out of me is the prospect of an artificial
    womb. It would allow a country to select its best soldier, then
    enhance his DNA and then, with artificial wombs, make
    1,000,000 clones.

    The first country to do that will have a huge military advantage, which
    will led to other countries doing the same resulting in a clone arms
    race.

    I don't think it will take more than 50 years for the artificial womb to
    be created. Will civilisation survive it?

    1. Re:The scary thing is the artificial womb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While this hypothetical country is waiting the 2-3 decades it takes for the 1,000,000 clones to mature, what's to stop their enemy simply conscripting 2,000,000 and attacking right away?

    2. Re:The scary thing is the artificial womb by INowRegretThesePosts · · Score: 1

      While this hypothetical country is waiting the 2-3 decades it takes for the 1,000,000 clones to mature, what's to stop their enemy simply conscripting 2,000,000 and attacking right away?

      2-3 decades!? 15-year-olds can already fight. And that is without genetic enhancement to grow faster.

      Second: the country that does this will also have a large regular army... The clone battalion will be an extra.

    3. Re:The scary thing is the artificial womb by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      zerg rush!

      yeah... it'll be a while before humans can be engineered to be better than much cheaper hardware.

      with self-driving cars able to identify people, i can imagine a self-driving tank that is more able to perform IFF than most soldiers in high pressure situations.

      i think we'll have ED-209s before artificial wombs.

    4. Re:The scary thing is the artificial womb by catmistake · · Score: 1

      Will civilisation [sic] survive it?

      I wouldn't worry about that. In the event of any power or superpower stock-piling clones, we already have enough plague to wipe them out many times over long before they even learn to walk. And if they are clever enough to have plague resistance, chances are good they will not have any significant fusion resistance, even after full maturity and deployment.

  14. Dawn of a New Discovery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sequencing the human genome is like Columbus discovering the Americas --

    (1) He didn't know where he was going.

    (2) He didn't know what he found.

    (3) He didn't know where he'd been when he returned.

    Any expectation of gleaning specifics from your genome sequencing is just like Queen Isabella expecting Columbus to bring back Google Maps of America.

  15. Only $1000? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does the cost include printing and delivery of your genome?

  16. 3.2e9 vs 1e2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what if we can read 3.2 billion base pairs for each human if we can only measure about 100 things related to their actual health. We've been sampling 1.2 million single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNP arrays) on large populations of diseased and healthy individuals for around five years now and haven't come up with much. The geneticists answer to this is to collect more genetic data (full genome sequencing), and their approach is entirely wrong. You could collect an infinite amount of genetic information and you'll still come up short if you can only collect a few data points related to someone's disease/health status. Biomarker research is the path forward, but sadly Francis Collins directs the NIH so we'll have to wait a while for any real progress.

  17. It may not mean as much as the hype suggests by davidannis · · Score: 1
    because most diseases seem to be caused by multiple rare mutations.
    From a recent NY Times article

    Though the cost of decoding an individual’s genome is fast approaching a mere $1,000, the difficulty of interpreting its mutations now seems much greater than before, raising doubts as to how soon genome sequencing will become a routine medical test. But Dr. Pritchard said personal genomics may soon be valuable in specific situations, like pediatric cases, cancer and the genetics of response to drugs.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/science/many-rare-mutations-may-underpin-diseases.html

    1. Re:It may not mean as much as the hype suggests by EdgePenguin · · Score: 1

      I suspected this; much hype about gene sequencing appears to come from Silicon Valley types, who sense that Moore's law is on borrowed time and want something else to provide exponentially increatnig returns - to show that such growth is some kind of law (see "Singularity") rather than an empirically observeed temporary phenomenom.

      Thing is, we just haven't seen returns from gene sequencing getting cheaper, that we have from transitor density. Sure, its getting cheaper quicker - but even now its cheap enough that a hospital can afford to sequence patients genes, but they don't. Why? Perhaps it is because most medical conditions (even the ones made more likely by genetics) aren't more easily treated if you know the pateints DNA?

    2. Re:It may not mean as much as the hype suggests by dkf · · Score: 1

      because most diseases seem to be caused by multiple rare mutations.

      [There goes my moderations...]

      What matters is not usually any individual gene, but rather how a network of genes interacts; if a particular mutation makes a protein less efficient at its job, the usual effect is just to ramp up the quantity of it produced, or maybe of a precursor or successor in the network. What's more, the most likely mutations to happen turn out to be ones that have relatively little effect on gene function (e.g., they swap one acidic amino acid for another). When it comes to analysis of the meaning of a mutation, you first find its Consequences (i.e., is it one of these "normal" mutations that just slightly impacts on efficiency, or is it more profound) and that of the other genes in the network that it is associated with, together with how they are regulated in the cell. Then you see what the overall effect is under circumstances found in the cell — if the network is driven hard the same way as normal, there's no overall effect to speak of other than slightly variant sensitivity — and try to map up to the levels of tissues, organs and the whole body.

      The first part of that, understanding the gene network, is proteomics. The second part, coupling between the cell and the body, is the forefront of modern physiology. Both are really tough problems (e.g., gene networks are modeled as large collections of differential equations, and the physiological mapping requires complex finite element modeling and fluid dynamics, depending on the organ) but they appear to be at least possible to attack with lots of computation and cutting edge scientific research.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
  18. Cheap Sequencing by robbiedo · · Score: 1

    All your base are belong to us.

    1. Re:Cheap Sequencing by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      all my funny mods are already spent :(

  19. Brace yourself by mapkinase · · Score: 1

    http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3phkay/

    Like we do not have enough trouble with crappy reads right now, frameshifts right in the middle of universal proteins, etc.

    --
    I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
  20. Genome Sequencing by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 2

    I hope for the day when we can get mobile kits that can be used for sequencing genome of all types of fauna / flora that are on this planet

    At the way of the degradation of our planet's ecology, more and more species are dying out

    If only someone can come out with el-cheapo gene sequence kits that are mobile, that can sequence genes of all types of flora / fauna, then, perhaps, we can collect the genetic sequence of as many species as we can possibly gather, before they disappear all together

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Genome Sequencing by J.Y.Kelly · · Score: 2

      We could be close to this with the MinIon sequencer from Oxford Nanopore.

      Less than $1000, disposable and about the size of a USB stick. Connect it to your computer, drop a sample into a hole in the top and a sequence file starts building up on your hard drive.

      It's due to be released in a couple of months when we'll see if this is as good as it sounds.

  21. Individual sequencing not all great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Given all of the stuff discovered regarding epigenetics, getting your sequence probably won't be too useful since I don't think most of the 2nd gen sequencing method capture epigenetic information. However, this would probably be useful in treating cancer or getting more research on it. I can see an oncologist getting your dna sequenced and then sequencing the tumour cells to determine where mutations occurred and then picking drugs that target the pathways that the mutations are affecting. I think some types of cancer are already tested to see if certain genes have been inactivated to determine sequences so it's certainly something that's coming down the pipeline.

    In regards to tumours, seeing which genes are inactivated or mutated in order to trigger cancers may allow certain types of cancers to be grouped and treatments that apply to one cancer in the group may be applicable to others in the group. It could potentially provide treatments for rarer cancers that hasn't had much clinical research on it.

  22. Re:Moral issue not just sci-fi by mug+funky · · Score: 1

    there's some overzealous mods in this thread. these are questions that need answers, even if there's a certain level of paranoia involved.

    insurance companies in particular should not have access to this data. it should be covered by the strictest of privacy law.

  23. socialized abortion by epine · · Score: 1

    advantageous at the point in time the selection occurs

    Mais non! We select genes that are advantageous in whichever frame of reference occupies our tiny little brains in the social context around making the decision. The easy cases are defective genes that severely incapacitate. Every other decision can go any number of different ways depending on how the deciding group integrates over a contingent future.

    Perhaps a broad consensus emerges that certain genes are linked to sexual predation, at which point advantageous becomes self-referential: any gene with a high coefficient of socialized abortion is disadvantageous by definition. Call these the pariah genes or genoma non grata.

    An entrepreneurial eugenicist might soon begin to speculate which genes are at risk of becoming genoma non grata. It would be advantageous to jump the gun to give your progeny an early advantage on convergence to the genetic ubermensch. We can make some early guesses already. Genes correlated with success at calculus in kindergarten are likely to appeal to people with this mindset. A helicopter parent is going to select genes that predispose the offspring to thriving under the rotor wash.

    This is more of a social construct than a rational assessment of advantage. Post ante, the genes winnowed out of the population were clearly disadvantageous. Just look at the results.

    1. Re:socialized abortion by epine · · Score: 1

      Continuing with another thought after racking my wine: it wouldn't surprise me that some sub-cohort of the ubermensch aspirant class actually does go on to achieve fame, prosperity, and eternal death tax exemption--more by luck than good management (see Columbus, Christoper) but then again, you can't win if you don't try. According to a popular Christian doctrine, success and prosperity are evidence of God's blessing. God means us to behave this way.

      In mathematics, you need to test your infinite series for convergence before making grand claims. With eugenics, the discriminating mind tests whether the starting assumptions are invariant under the conclusions reached. Given human nature during a land grab, I suspect that any gene that correlates with careful thinking is just as likely to fall under the stampede to riches as to excel on merit.

  24. a hacker did it before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A few months ago wasn't there a hacker that built a DNA sequencer in a tiny box and it worked? It used specialized algorithms to sequence unless I'm thinking of something else but similar?

  25. From a geneticist... by samazon · · Score: 1

    "What is sad is that the prices for those "non-sequencing associated functions" have become prohibitive. It's because the decreased price is for crappy sequence. Little bitty pieces that don't tell you anything. Grrrrr....."

    --
    I have the hiccups.