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The World's First Supercavitating Boat?

An anonymous reader writes "For decades, researchers have been trying to build boats, submarines, and torpedoes that make use of supercavitation — a bubble layer around the hull that drastically reduces friction and enables super-fast travel. Now a company in New Hampshire called Juliet Marine Systems has built and tested such a craft, and says it is the world's fastest underwater vehicle. The ship, called the 'Ghost,' looks like two supercavitating torpedoes with a command module on top, and can carry 18 people plus weapons and supplies. The company is in talks with the U.S. Navy to build a version of the ship that can guard the fleet against swarm attacks by small boats. The question is how well it really works, and whether it can be used reliably and effectively on the high seas."

16 of 186 comments (clear)

  1. So fast it outran the Link ! by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 5, Informative
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    1. Re:So fast it outran the Link ! by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Great, another public relations company "news". No reporter was involved on this, 100% paid advertisment.

      Did you actually RTFA? They're citing people who are casting doubts on the claims, they're talking about people who refused to comment.

      So, I'd be more inclined to believe you read the first paragraph and have decided it's a press release.

      The presence of things like "I am dubious about the application of supercavitating propellers" tells me this wasn't simply word-smithed to provide only glowing praise.

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    2. Re:So fast it outran the Link ! by aurizon · · Score: 4, Informative

      Supercavitating is super noisy and very detectable by underwater ears.
      The supercavitating transition layer reflects sound very well = also detectable.
      at 300 to 500 miles per hour the immediacy compensates for the noise which makes it hard to localize, but you sure know it was around.

      The Russian supercavitating torpdeo was very very noisy, but fast as stink...
      It use decomposing Hydrogen peroxide as high power density fuel.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_K-141_Kursk
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

      Scientific American had article on the technology behind their paywall.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercavitation wiki refers to it and it can be found online...

    3. Re:So fast it outran the Link ! by alannon · · Score: 4, Informative

      Re the 2nd: You realize the speed of sound in water is more than 4x of that in air, right? We can barely build a craft that can go that speed in the air, let alone water.

    4. Re:So fast it outran the Link ! by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Funny

      The Russian supercavitating torpdeo was very very noisy, but fast as stink...

      What is the speed of stink? Preferably in the standard measure of furlongs per fortnight. ;-)

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    5. Re:So fast it outran the Link ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's because stink is propagated via much nimbler particles, known as pewtrinos, often the result of latrino decay.

    6. Re:So fast it outran the Link ! by skelly33 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So a couple years ago I was recollecting to a friend who is in the U.S. Coast Guard about a science program I had seen on TV about a new boat the CG was experimenting with which used hydrofoils to lift the main hull clear of the water when the boat was at speed. I asked him whatever happened to that program as it looked super interesting and promising for high speed water craft. He said they were abandoned because they would routinely be cruising along and strike a submerged log floating in the water which would rip one or more of the hydro foil skis off, and that would be the end of that boat. It happened *all* the time.

      This vehicle appears to me that it would suffer the same problem - strike something submerged just below the surface and one of those pontoons becomes damaged or separated and down goes your boat.

      A regular boat hull has the advantage of coming up to an obstacle at speed like that and skip right over the top of it, no harm, no foul, (albeit with a horrible sound within). At least the CG ships had a regular hull + the hydrofoil skis so that if there was a problem of that sort, it just sank back down to the regular hull. For the design proposed, it doesn't look like the craft would even float without the two pontoons, so those guys would be farkt. I suggest not buying it.

    7. Re:So fast it outran the Link ! by Solandri · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So a couple years ago I was recollecting to a friend who is in the U.S. Coast Guard about a science program I had seen on TV about a new boat the CG was experimenting with which used hydrofoils to lift the main hull clear of the water when the boat was at speed. I asked him whatever happened to that program as it looked super interesting and promising for high speed water craft. He said they were abandoned because they would routinely be cruising along and strike a submerged log floating in the water which would rip one or more of the hydro foil skis off, and that would be the end of that boat. It happened *all* the time.

      The Navy had a bigger hydrofoil project - the Pegasus class, built by Boeing. Hitting a submerged log is a euphemism. The story I heard (from some of the guys who helped design and test it for the Navy) was that they were averaging one whale strike a year per ship.

      Boeing even took that into consideration with its design. The foils need to rotate up anyway for slow-speed operation in shallow harbors. So on the front foil, they added what they called a structural fuse. Like an electrical fuse is designed to burn out before the wiring does, they added a big metal bar to the linkage holding the foils in place. The bar was designed to break before the foil or its mounting points on the hull if the foil struck anything (a whale or a log). Once the bar broke, the foil would be free to collapse upward. The ship wouldn't be very operational afterwards and would suffer minor damage, but at least it wouldn't sink and an expensive foil wouldn't be ripped off. From what I was told, it worked pretty well. But the frequency of whale strikes*, and the downtime associated with recovering and repairing the ship after one, was just too much and they canceled the program.

      Boeing adapted most of the technology into a passenger hydrofoil which I believe is still in service in a few areas around the world. They eventually sold the design and rights to Kawasaki Heavy Industries. I got to ride one when I visited Japan, and it feels more like flying in a plane that it does riding a ship. There's a slight rocking motion, but it's very muted compared to a regular monohull or catamaran. The hull is above the waves and swells, so the ship is mostly unaffected by them.

      * The foils are basically wings "flying" underwater and are bound by much of the same physics as aircraft wings. If you go too slowly, they stall and the ship sinks bank into the water. A twist though is that you can get cavitation along the top of the foil. In the air, a wing creates a low pressure zone on top, causing the air underneath to lift the plane. In the water, this low pressure zone can drop so much in pressure that the water boils into vapor and cavitates. Once it cavitates, the water flow is disrupted and the foil loses its lift. (Same problem that propellers suffer, unless they're designed to supercavitate - generate thrust despite cavitating.)

      However, since water increases in pressure rapidly with depth, this can be solved by simply running the foils at a deeper depth. Beyond a certain depth, the ambient water pressure is enough to prevent cavitation. This does mean though that you cannot simply "fly" the ship along the top of the water thus minimizing the danger from whale strikes. The minimum depth of the foils will be determined by their geometry and the weight of the ship. So the foils are usually running several meters underwater, making a whale strike a catastrophic event.

  2. Re:Link, please? by cachimaster · · Score: 4, Informative

    Article has enough keywords to uniquely locate the original article

  3. Re:A boat? by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Informative

    Since when is a 'underwater craft' referred to as a 'boat'? A USN Submariner friend of mine affectionately calls his submarine a 'boat' sometimes, but come on /.!

    That's because

    Submarines are usually referred to as "boats" rather than as "ships", regardless of their size."

    A sub is always a boat. Navies have always called them boats, that's why your submariner friend calls it that.

    You might not like it, but "boat" is the correct term.

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  4. Probably not very useful by Lev13than · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This type of boat is probably too limited in usefulness to be adopted by the navy. In terms of R&D capabilities it feels a lot like the experiments from the 1960s to develop militarized hydrofoils - the Canadian HMCS Bras d'Or being one good example. Despite impressive stability and speeds in excess of 60 knots (70mph), the limited load capacity and range made the prototypes unsuitable for military use.

    The biggest hit, however, was the introduction of missiles. The difference between 20 and 30 knots isn't all that important when you're defending against a Sea Sparrow running at 500 mph. In WWII there were lots of destroyers running in excess of 35 knots. Now it's just the nuke-powered ACs that do top speeds, and everyone else is more worried about conserving fuel.

    That means the proposed boat is really just a replacement for patrol vessels or stealth assault craft, and it doesn't look like the advantages of the design outweigh the compromises in handling, noise, carrying capacity and cost.

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  5. Invalidate the patent right now by Overzeetop · · Score: 3

    "Sancoff said that what’s in the patent filing isn’t quite how it works."

    That should be forwarded to the examiner and the book closed.

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  6. Re:Link, please? by Carnildo · · Score: 4, Informative

    There's a difference between cavitation and supercavitation. Supercavitation takes those noisy bubbles that are destroying your propeller and extends them to enclose the entire vessel. This reduces the amount of surface in contact with the water, which greatly reduces drag, and all of a sudden you're rocketing along at 200 miles per hour and don't particularly care if people hear you coming.

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  7. Re:How long before Russia and China adopt the tech by capnkr · · Score: 4, Informative

    In addition, the claim is made by the inventor that the US Navy has no defense plan in place WRT small boat swarms, so his is the only solution. Wrong.

    I can attest that is a blatant falsehood, and that our Navy does indeed train for exactly that sort of warfare. I don't think it is revealing any sensitive info to point out the fact that a certain well known, very-fast-boat manufacturer has an ongoing contract with the Navy conducting offshore exercises using 40-50' "attack" boats powered by twin or triple 250-300hp outboard engines. I've hung out many times with the guys running those boats, and they do not operate in any sort of "blacked out" manner. They use public and privately-owned marine facilities, and conduct operations in broad daylight within areas used by recreational offshore fisherman, so I am sure that the inventor is aware of them as well. These boats can easily run in excess of 70mph, and while they may be very high-dollar craft in the consumer market, they cost less than $500K apiece.

    The one advantage his invention has over these conventional hulled boats (other than raw speed) is that this is a wave piercing design, which as stated ITFA is better for the health of those aboard. That said, I seriously doubt it has anywhere near the maneuverability of more conventional offshore craft such as those I mention above. The turning radius would have to be *extremely* large with that cat hull configuration, and even moreso at super cavitation speeds. And how large a sea state can it run in? Keeping that pod above water and waves at 200mph (or even 1/4 that speed) would be absolutely critical. Water being non-compressible, one good impact would likely render that platform unusable. So - it's very fast, but can't turn/maneuver for shit, and will primarily be useful only in areas where seas will remain relatively calm.

    The inventor speaks glowingly about his $20-million-dollar-per solution becoming a multi-billion dollar industry. To me, knowing what I know about water craft, it seems to me as if he is selling the US Navy a marine version of TSA body scanners. Another Federal boondoggle...

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  8. Re:Link, please? by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Funny

    But I'm a pretty good troll.

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  9. Re:Link, please? by phayes · · Score: 3, Informative

    You are either confused or you didn't read TFA. This is a $10 million private sector development. Yes they are trying to interest the Navy/CG but were they really interested is would have been mentioned. If you want to beat on government spending go find a subject where the government is actually doing the spending.

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