Senator Pushes For Tougher H-1B Enforcement

mk1004 writes "Computerworld says that the industry lobbying group TechNet is calling on Congress to eliminate the per-country cap on H-1B workers. Last year a bill was passed in the house, 389-to-15, to remove the cap. Grassley put a hold on the bill in the Senate, indicating that he would be willing to lift the cap if companies faced an annual audit. The US currently allows 140K H-1B workers, but allows only 7% of those to come from any one country."

Comments

I'm for it.

[PerlPunk]

It would be a big incentive to attraact the best of the best from around the world to the United States. It would go hand-in-hand with smart immigration policies that tried to retain that talent.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's wonderful until the job market is flooded with 140k h1b workers working for absurdly low wages, soaking up the few jobs there are in your particular field, sending the bulk of what they do earn home instead of spending it here.

I'm sure corporate america loves the idea though. Can't get the price of capable labor down low enough? Bring in people that will live 6 to an apartment and work cheaper than anyone with those old, outdated ideas of a family, home and a lawn to mow!

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's wonderful until the job market is flooded with 140k h1b workers working for absurdly low wages

And who are these H1B workers on absurdly low wages? It costs Microsoft 30% more to hire foreigners on H1Bs because there aren't enough Americans graduating with master's and PhDs in STEM fields. MSFT would gladly hire Americans to do these jobs, if they could. I'm quite confident this generalizes to other tech companies.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure where you've worked, but I've yet to find any H1Bs in tech living anything like you're describing. Okay, so during his (and my) first year at my old job, my H1B co-worker and I rented a four bedroom apartment together. So that's kind of close, although he later married and bought a house. It only has a small lawn, so he mostly has to stick to around the deck or BBQ and sadly look over Puget Sound, thinking of how unfortunate he is.
 
The other H1Bs included the guy with the brand new 3-series living in a fancy glass and steel downtown condo, and the guy with the Range Rover who had restrained but expensive tastes. The other H1B in my group was rather stoic so perhaps he lived with 5 other H1Bs in an apartment, although it'd be weird since his salary was well into six figures and a decent studio in the most expensive parts of the city were ~$1000/month with parking.
 
Yes, H1Bs can be paid on the low end of the scale since they're at a major disadvantage if they're unhappy with their job. But it's not a huge difference, it's just that corporations would be happy to sell out their own country for a penny. In fact, because I went front-end and my ex-roommate went server-side, he was making more than me within 3-4 years on the job.
 
That said, there is very little need for H1Bs in terms of supply and demand as was pointed out in this recently posted transcript, and it'd be nice if lawmakers and other people involved in immigration policy recognized this fact.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

smart immigration policies

The h-1b isn't a smart immigration policy. It's a tool to drive down US worker wages by making immigrants your bitch.

This isn't a "they tewk er jerbs" thing, either. Some of the crap the h-1bs go through... the immigrants deserve better, too.

Re:I'm for it.

[Thanshin]

It would be a big incentive to attraact the best of the best from around the world to the United States. It would go hand-in-hand with smart immigration policies that tried to retain that talent.

The problem is that a fraction of what the immigrant earns is sent out of the country. Thus only part of the benefit to the corporation stays.

Deeper still, the problem is that the corporation's interests aren't aligned with the country, nor has it any pressure to make them so.

Deeper still, the problem is that the corporation is just a product of the economical system. Society cannot specify how to create businesses following a certain set of rules and then claim that the resulting corporation is bad.

A solution would be to have the state control the corporate behaviours that harm the country, however that doesn't work because the state is not the country, just a subset of individuals who are vulnerable to corporation power, which was given by the rules decided by society.

A solution to that would be society removing that power from the corporation, but the corporation was made following rules that society itself imposed, so its the rules that would have to be changed first.

And we don't know what other set of rules works better than the current one, nor whether the new corporate-like entity crerated by them would have even stronger power over the state.

Re:I'm for it.

[sjames]

They can, there are plenty of people with the qualifications they need. It's just that they would just have to pay more or offer better working conditions. The prospect of jobs that pay well and offer good working conditions would also cause more people to get their degree in a STEM field. The current push down on wages and into H1-B and outsourcing is why less students are choosing that career.

So, MS has to spend 30% more to hire an H1B than they would if there was a glut in the employee market? So how much less do they cost compared to the actual market rate under the actual conditions of supply?

Re:I'm for it.

[sjames]

So give them a green card so their employer can't hold their status hostage.

Re:I'm for it.

[artor3]

And who are these H1B workers on absurdly low wages? It costs Microsoft 30% more to hire foreigners on H1Bs because there aren't enough Americans graduating with master's and PhDs in STEM fields. MSFT would gladly hire Americans to do these jobs, if they could.

According to who, Microsoft? Gee, I can't think of any reason they might want to lie about this.

H1B workers are easily abused because changing jobs is far more difficult. The upfront costs of hiring them may be higher, but they end up working longer hours for less pay. That is why Microsoft, along with all the other tech giants, go before Congress every year and lie and beg.

Re:I'm for it.

[sjames]

The current median is 85K in that area. Keep in mind that figure will be distorted low due to cheap H1-B labor.

According to glassdoor, their current offerings are a bit on the low side compared to google, amazon, and similar in that area.

It looks like they would have a LOT less trouble hiring qualified people if they would go 5-10k higher. So, big surprise, lowball offer = a problem finding takers.

Re:I'm for it.

[Cryacin]

No, it's just a skills shortage. We can't find anyone who's willing to work for $75kpa, who does exactly what we want them to do, but for someone else, with 10 years of experience in a language/product that's only been around for 5. That's why we need to hire people from overseas who can tell HR that they have 10 years of experience, and who will be willing to work for $70 kpa. It's simple really, and for the good of the nation.

That, or companies could actually take on university graduates like they used to do, train them, treat them well, and have some high class permanents who know what they're doing. Oh wait, that's a long term strategy. And long term's no good because in the long term we're all dead anyway.

Re:I'm for it.

[guacamole]

I am sorry man, but you have no idea about the reality of H1B workers. Most I have known are fairly smart people and they were already relatively well to-do by the standards of their country. They would certainly NOT come here to live 6 an apartment. Also, a lot of the successful ones eventually convert their H1B visa status to a more permanent visa to stay here. Now, it's possible that some of them send money back home. So what? Would you instead prefer to see entire corporate offices with ALL jobs moved to India, Taiwan, China, or Russia? This is not that hard at all, you know.

To put this a little blunt, this is a global competitive economy, and if you can't adapt then you should improve, change your career, or just perish. Sorry. No other way around this.

Re:I'm for it.

[hairyfeet]

I take it you've not watched How NOT to hire an American then? Fraud is RAMPANT in the H1-B program, with BS qualifications like 5 years of Win 8 experience or 15 years of .NET being all too common. Then once they get the "qualified" H1-B they are paid below the market going rate for the ACTUAL job.

But in the end everyone here should be against the H1-B because not only are we looking at nearly a trillion in student loans, with defaults jumping to 12% in the past couple of years, but the simple fact it completely destroys supply and demand and makes sure there will NEVER be an American for those jobs. After all, what idiot is gonna go $50k-$75k in debt for a job they know they'll have to compete for with a guy that paid less than 15K for theirs?

In the end the vast majority of their wages will go overseas, never to return, and the H1-Bs themselves will go overseas with the education and work experience. if you look at the real numbers we are looking at something like 23% unemployment, what are we gonna do with all those people? Do you know how many are going straight from their college graduation to the unemployment lines? When you are in a recession and there aren't enough jobs to go around as it is the LAST thing you want is corps poisoning the system by distorting supply and demand and driving yet more money overseas.

Personally, I don't know about everyone else here, but i'm sick to damned death of the "just give the corps what they want and things will get better" horseshit. We have been doing that for over 20 years now, are things better? We have practically gutted regulation, the ACTUAL amount of taxes the fortune 500 pay thanks to loopholes has never been lower, with many corps like GE actually getting money out instead of putting any in, are things better? maybe for the 5% at the top but for everyone else it sure as hell ain't. When unemployment is below 4% then and ONLY then should we be talking about importing workers, not when we have many of our young people buried in student loans and working at the Pizza Hut.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anne_Nonymous]

May I be having my stapler back please, yes?

Re:I'm for it.

[sycodon]

if you are qualified, my company wants to hire you

And there's the problem...what is the definition of "qualified"? I've been i this business for nearly thirty years. When I was laid off, I had about 3 years C# experience...as in heads down coding 80% of the day 5 days a week. It was my world.

Looking for work, people wouldn't even interview me because they wanted 5 years experience, or 4. One place wanted 1 year experience in some particular tool that I had gone to training for and used for nearly 10 months. Sorry...not enough "experience".

The hiring process at most companies is a joke of tick off the requirements line. If the airlines hired pilots like this, they'd reject an Air Force Colonel with 20 years at the stick of a C-5 because they aren't certified to fly a 747.

So I say cut the HB-1 stuff to a trickle and make the companies actually pay attention to the candidates instead of doing fucking keyword scans on resumes.

Re:I'm for it.

[BVis]

And there's the problem...what is the definition of "qualified"?

Said elsewhere but bears repetition:

Listed qualifications: 5 years blah blah 4 years blah blah good team player etc.

Actual qualifications: Willingness to work insane hours. Willingness to ruin health to help the company make a buck. Willingness to put employer ahead of all other priorities, including financial security and family. Willingness to work at 20% below the industry average for the area. Ability to say "how high" when some pinhead over-promoted manager with an IQ of 70 says "Jump." Ability to refrain from using begrudgingly given PTO. Ability to not get sick or in an accident or have a loved one die.

Re:I'm for it.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

No, it's just a skills shortage.

In this case, skill shortage means a shortage of people possessing the skill and willing to work for less than the median salary for their chosen profession.

Re:I'm for it.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

That, or companies could actually take on university graduates like they used to do, train them, treat them well, and have some high class permanents who know what they're doing. Oh wait, that's a long term strategy. And long term's no good because in the long term we're all dead anyway.

They still do. They are called "fresh outs" and corporations love them. They are young, willing to relocate, and work for less than the going rate in exchange for experience to show on their resume. These corporations tend to hire by the project. This allows them to layoff workers at the end of each project and the workers find themselves competing with new "fresh outs" on upcoming projects. The majority of these workers find themselves looking elsewhere for employment only to find out that despite their experienced gained from their first employer they must compete with H1B workers who will work for less pay.

Re:I'm for it.

[BVis]

How, exactly, do you see 'greater enforcement' happening under the current system? Picture this:

Concerned party (immigrant's rights worker, social worker, lawyer): "You're being exploited, they're not paying you market rate, you should complain"
H1-B visa holder: "If I do that, they'll fire me. Better to be making below market value than get deported back to [wherever] where I will make 1/10th of what I make here."

It's like a prostitute complaining about his/her pimp to the police. All it will do is 1) get him/her arrested for solicitation and 2) beaten and possibly killed by said pimp.

Re:I'm for it.

[Lehk228]

Se we should let the corporations fuck us out of fear that they will fuck us harder?

We need to deglobalize the economy as the people do not see any of the advantages, IP laws allow companies to sell for low prices overseas but restrict imports

Build import tariffs in such a way as to severely penalize production in places where environmental and or worker safety laws are lax, make importing profits from overseas holdings difficult as well if those overseas holdings do business, directly or indirectly, in the US.

Re:I'm for it.

[sycodon]

Since you're on Slashdot too I expect you are a lazy fat fuck American?

Re:I'm for it.

[couchslug]

Then facilitate LEGAL immigration and capture the talent. Americans don't want to work and disdain many jobs because they think they are too precious to compete.

Import and retain skilled workers, denying them to other countries. Business is war and "defectors" are useful. "Brain drain" the competition and welcome new Americans.

Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no per country cap on H1Bs. As usual, Computer world is trying to rile up anti immigrant/anti H1B sentiment.

There is a per country cap on Green Cards. This means that to get a green card, there are separate queues based on the country you were born in. Because of this cap, an engineer from India or China, if he applies in the advanced/special skills category that needs a Masters degree in engineering or science has to wait in the same job for more than 6 years to get a green card, while the guy from Iceland gets one in six months.

Re:Article is wrong

[hooeezit]

As parent says, the article is utterly wrong. There are no per-country caps on H1B. The caps are on Green Cards (permanent residence) issued under certain categories, EB2 (Employment Based 2nd) being the most affected. The problem is that all countries, irrespective of their population, get a fixed ceiling of 7% of the total allocation of 140000 GCs issued per year. So, H1B workers from China and India have to wait at least 5 years, sometimes 10 years depending on the whims of USCIS, to get their Green Card. During that time, they have to continue being employed by the same company that originally filed the GC application, and in a materially similar position as at the time of filing. A major change in job description requires refiling. If you don't realize what that means, it makes those workers subservient to their employers. This has quite the opposite effect that you think it does - it doesn't help US workers any since these foreigners are already employed, but it gives the employers a position of power from which they can dictate terms on pay raises and promotions since they have the workers by the leash.

This is definitely hurting US tech companies because many excellent techies getting good salaries are leaving the US and setting up their own companies either in their home countries or in some other immigration-friendly country, Canada and Singapore being the top destinations. They would rather spend 2 years setting up their own company and getting permanent residence and a path to citizenship there than toil for 6+ years in fear with no certain timeline on when they'll become a permanent resident, much less a citizen of the US.

I myself am an example of a person who left the US after being there for 11 years. I was on H1B and making $120k/yr, so definitely not an underpaid worker. But I'm loathe to serve 6 years in a big corporation doing the same job day in and day out. So, I moved back to India, and I'm using my contacts in the industry to provide embedded software and hardware development services to small companies in the US. At the same time, I'm providing Industrial Automation consulting services to Indian companies and am currently working on a new data logging product for the South African market. So, the US lost the tax revenue it would have received. It lost a bunch of local jobs due to US companies outsourcing work to me in India. And it lost the new jobs I'd have created there if I'd continued building new products in the US.

So, you decide what works in US's national interests? Keeping people like me away from that country, or giving us an incentive to set up companies of our own? And if you claim that I'm a minority, that's an irrelevant argument. A very useful minority is still being alienated. I loved being in the US, and would happily go back if the immigration situation becomes easier and more deterministic. But I seriously don't see current US politics being conducive to ANYTHING that's of real value to the country.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually they already are in the workforce - so the question is a bit more subtle: whether the world's best and brightest work at companies in the USA or whether the world's best and brightest work at companies in other countries.

If you're an American worker, then the question you should be asking is whether you want the world's best and brightest working with you to make your American company successful or whether you want the world's best and brightest working at foreign companies competing against you.

Re:Article is wrong

[toejam13]

It's a thinly veiled substitute for the Chinese Exclusion Act.

India and China have no natural right to dominate the US immigration system simple because each country alone has a greater population than the entire US.

To have a true melting pot, you need a diverse population. When you have a huge immigrant influx from a single region of the world, your melting pot will start to form lumps. That gives rise to a number of socioeconomic issues.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

...than toil for 6+ years in fear with no certain timeline on when they'll become a permanent resident, much less a citizen of the US.

I'm an American (born and raised) scientist currently living and working in Asia and, after the way my non-American wife and her family have been treated by USCIS, I'm not at all eager to go back to the USA, either.

In my wife's case, we spent years waiting for all the various paperwork to clear - during which times my wife wasn't allowed to work, or go to school or even leave the USA. And it's totally arbitrary: even now that my wife has permanent residence (a "green card") USCIS could take it away for no reason and, at best, we'd have to start all over again.

And then her sister, who had a five year multiple entry visa, essentially applied for a renewal to do some traveling with us - and was denied - again totally arbitrary and with no due process or rule of law or possibility to appeal.

But I seriously don't see current US politics being conducive to ANYTHING that's of real value to the country.

Yeah, I voted for Obama hoping things might improve - but from what I've seen they've actually gotten worse. I sure won't be voting Democratic this year.

Well, anyway, I can always hope that some other country will invade and occupy the USA and straighten it out. :)

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're going to leave screwed up UK, why would you pick the US of all places!?

I heard you have greener grass over there.

Re:We need this for politicians too!

[Hognoxious]

Instead of fighting against this trend I've decided it should be applied to politicians as well. Bring in some real talent where leadership is concerned and allow these H1-B Visa holders to run our country as well, why not?

Already been done.

At least that's what Donald Trump says.

Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[ad454]

The simplest solution is to raise the minimum salary for all H1B employees to something more reasonable, like between $100,000 to $150,000, depending on the area and profession. (Note this is a minimum, the maximum is open.)

That way companies would be forced to pay the extra amount for foreign workers if they really are needed, and be incentivize to first look for local talent and/or provide training.

And H1B's recipients would stop being considered as cheap low-cost labour putting downwards pressure on salaries.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[VortexCortex]

The simplest solution is to raise the minimum salary for all H1B employees to something more reasonable, like between $100,000 to $150,000

I see a flaw...
A gallon of milk will just cost $40, and that $20k minimum wage slave will make $200k.
...absolute values don't account for inflation well.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[roman_mir]

There is no such thing as a 'wage slave'. Everybody is free to attempt their own business or live on charity.

Or how about experienced workers?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

That, or companies could actually take on university graduates like they used to do, train them,....

Or get an experienced worker who's done alot of the work before but maybe in a different language or on a different platform?

As an experienced C++ programmer, it took me at most 3 hours to learn Java's syntax AND how to navigate around the libraries.

C#? Picked it up immediately.

I think hiring managers are the ones who need to realize that their particular technology or platform isn't all that special or any harder than any other platform or language.

Those laundry lists that HR has? The managers ordered them to do it. Remeber kids, HR works for management - don't let anyone tell you different.

And then there's the first line management cockiness that I see way too often You'll see it here. For example, folks saying that they can't get anyone qualified - too many "wannabes". WTF is a "wannabe"?

Or having problems getting folks because they can't find someone to answer some "key" question they ask like "Where do you see yourself in five years?", "What is your favorite IDE?" or "What kind of projects do you in your spare time?"

That last one is ridiculous. Uh, when I've been working 50+ hours a week (which is the norm now), the last thing I want or can do is go home and code. I NEED to workout, spend time with my wife, and relax with a movie, good book, or cook a meal for said loved ones. Code?

Oh wait, you want a 20 something or an immigrant with no ties and no life who have nothing better to do than sit in front of the computer.

Got it. I finally figured it out.