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Is Being In the Same BitTorrent "Swarm" Equal To "Interacting"?

NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "In the new wave of bittorrent downloading cases, the plaintiffs' lawyers like to lump a number of 'John Does' together in the same case in order to avoid filing fees ($350 a pop). Their excuse for 'joinder' is the allegation that the defendants 'interacted' with each other by reason of the fact that their torrents may have emanated from the same 'swarm.' In Malibu Media v. Does 1-5, when John Doe #4 indicated his intention to move for severance, the Court asked the lawyers to address the 'swarm' issue in their papers. So when John Doe #4 filed his or her motion to quash, sever, and dismiss, he filed a detailed memorandum of law (PDF) analyzing the 'swarm' theory in detail. What do you think?"

22 of 166 comments (clear)

  1. Sounds a little hokey by Narrowband · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Did you interact with someone if your telephone call to party A was carried on the same transatlantic phone cable as someone else's call to party B?

    1. Re:Sounds a little hokey by masternerdguy · · Score: 5, Funny

      But this involves the internet which makes it different.

      --
      To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
    2. Re:Sounds a little hokey by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Funny

      Or to use a mixed car-superhero analogy, if you're parked in a parking lot when the Incredible Hulk goes on a car-smashing spree, can you be held liable for the other cars being smashed?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Sounds a little hokey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's not the same thing as a swarm though. You make it sound like people were prosecuted because their neighbours used BT, that's on the same cable too.

      A swarm is more like a conference call. You share the same line, but you also pass data between each other. As much as I hate the *AA litigation - I think the interaction thing holds up. How the hell else are you going to download from / upload to a swarm if not by interacting with it?

    4. Re:Sounds a little hokey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Depends on if you you're speaking realistically, or riaalistically.

    5. Re:Sounds a little hokey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I put forward something a little closer to the topic: Is sitting on a toilet connected to the same sewage "system" equal to "giving a sh!t"?

      It's all tubes, after all!

    6. Re:Sounds a little hokey by koolfy · · Score: 5, Funny

      This may very well be the worst analogy I have read in a long, long time.

      It's perfect.
      Perfectly broken.
      In every way possible.

      --
      Segmentation Fault in "Life, Universe and Everything" at line 42. Don't Panic.
    7. Re:Sounds a little hokey by dark12222000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The law here is a bit more complex. It's not just a matter of "interacting", it's a matter of having committed the same crime, at the same time, at the same place.

      So, a nice example would be a bank robbery. Lets say you and me robbed a bank together. Clearly, we would be litigated against together, since we clearly interacted.

      However, lets say I robbed a bank, and then 20 minutes later, without knowing about my robbery, you rob the same bank in the same way. In this instance, we have not interacted.

      How this applies to Swarms is where it gets tricky. If I join a swarm several hours after you've gotten the file, seeded, and left, are we interacting?

    8. Re:Sounds a little hokey by dshadowwolf · · Score: 5, Informative

      Nope. A swarm is nothing like a conference call, because you aren't interacting with every member of the swarm, but just a few members at a time - restricted by how many connections your bandwidth can actually handle at a given time. Regardless, the reported "offenses" are so separate in *TIME* that there is no guarantee that the Doe's in this case were actually online and part of the swarm at the same time as each other. Even if they were the chance that they actually shared parts of the movie between each other is so low as to be nil.

      You really should read the documents linked to - they might be in legalese, but it is close enough to english for just about anyone to follow. And it does explain things simply enough for anyone to be able to understand them. Yes, there is an explanation for how a BitTorrent swarm works in the actual motion and it was written in such a way as to be understandable by any of the legal professionals - including the judge in the case.

      And regardless of whether or not "participating in the same swarm" is a legal theory that holds water and fulfills the requirements of the rules, well... There is the fact that these "joinders" benefit only the plaintiffs in the case and create hardships for the joined defendents that break the required "fairness" of the legal system. (Yes, the legal system is supposed to be fair - surprising, no ?) So the joinder should be undone anyway :)

      Again, read the actual motion. These arguments are covered in depth and explained in excruciating detail inside it. To tell the truth, I will be surprised if this motion doesn't go through. Doe #4 has a *LOT* of legal precedent on his side :)

    9. Re:Sounds a little hokey by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'll sue your pants off!

      Does that work? Would it be possible to sue a blouse off?

      Just asking theoretically, you understand.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    10. Re:Sounds a little hokey by msauve · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As if the computer did this on it's own. Might as well argue that you didn't hire that hit man, he just acted based on hearing the mechanical vibrations caused by electrons going over the phone line.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    11. Re:Sounds a little hokey by cpu6502 · · Score: 5, Funny

      >>>incorrect, there are ways to not upload data. I do it all the time

      Please share.
      Wait wrong term.
      Please tell us how you do it.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    12. Re:Sounds a little hokey by physicsphairy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think it's worth backing up a step and asking why we have these rules in the first place. The robbers in your first example committed the same crime under the same circumstances, they've acted as mutual facillitators, and evidence against one of them is pretty much going to amount to evidence against the other. So it makes sense to have a rule that that level of interaction can result in a joint case.

      For the bittorrenting, however, where the crime actually occurs is at the other end of a computer terminal, and those terminals are in very different places. You are probably not going to send a detective to the computer used by one defendant and find any evidence against the other defendant. The defendants don't know each other, and they haven't communicated with each other. You will have to present different cases to prove the identity of the person at the other end of the IP address--one might have a router and claim his friend was using his connection, another might have been at a coffee shop. Information about one of the crimes is just going to be utterly irrelevant to the other in any way other than being the same charge. If the law does allow lumping them together, that would seem like a bad feature.

    13. Re:Sounds a little hokey by Belial6 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's more like you sang "Happy Birthday" to your kid at his party in a Chuck-E-Cheese. One of his guests learns the song during that illegal public performance, and teaches it to his brother who then proceeds to perform an illegal public performance of the same song at his friends Chuck-E-Cheese birthday party.

    14. Re:Sounds a little hokey by Tom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A bank robbery seems the wrong metaphor here.

      How about a demonstration gone violent? Both parties were at the demonstration, but it is unclear if they ever talked to each other. You can't even prove if they've seen each other. But it was the same event and they did the same things. And they might have (unknowingly) supported each other, e.g. one threw a stone which drove police back which the user used to do something else.

      IANAL, but this is the real-world example that comes closest IMHO. If you'd join in these circumstances, you should join BT users. If you wouldn't, then you shouldn't.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    15. Re:Sounds a little hokey by nospam007 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "What's needed is an option in clients to not upload to other users who have IP addresses in the USA. Even better would be a public list of IP blocks used by the MAFIAA, so those can be blacklisted automatically by the clients."

      There is such a thing called PeerBlock who does exactly that. It allows also custom lists.
      I use those to block all connections from/to my own country, so that local law enforcement/MAFIAA equivalent can't get anything usable in court.

  2. Re:Not gonna fly by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you're connecting to a torrent, it's pretty damn obvious you're expecting to swap chunks of the target file with peers who also want that exact same file

    Except when you connect to a swarm just to see who is in the swarm, like the media companies do. Who's to say that I didn't do the same thing?

  3. Re:Not gonna fly by fish+waffle · · Score: 5, Informative
    From TFA, being in the same swarm does not mean any given pair (let alone 5-tuple) of participants actually exchanged data. In fact:

    Here, the activity alleged in the complaint not only did not take place simultaneously with each other, but took place at five discrete times involving a single defendant over an 88 day period extending almost three months. The moving defendant (Doe 4) allegedly accessed the swarm at issue on February 3, 2012 at 2:48 a.m. The closest preceding “hit”, that of Doe 5, allegedly occurred 50 days earlier, on December 16, 2011. The closest succeeding “hit”, that of Doe 2, allegedly occurred 15 days later, on February 18, 2012. Such temporal gaps compel a finding that the five Does did not act in concert with each other

    That is not acting "in concert".

  4. Re:Not gonna fly by Anubis+IV · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You're overlooking the fundamental fact that to interact with someone, you need to actually engage in an action with them at some point. Just because you're in a swarm does not mean that you interacted with every single person who ever joined that swarm over the entire life of the swarm, yet that's the sort of logic being applied by the plaintiff's lawyers in this case. They're alleging that Doe #4 interacted with the other Does, despite the fact that there were weeks or months separating his presence in the swarm from theirs. In fact, their own records are damning them in this matter.

  5. Re:Not gonna fly by dshadowwolf · · Score: 5, Informative

    Simply connecting to the same swarm does not mean you are acting in concert with any given other member of the swarm. In fact, you can only interact with a relatively small portion of a large swarm at any given time.

    In this case, however, there is no proof that any of the Does were even *ONLINE* and in the swarm at the same time, regardless. Due to large amounts of legal precedent from other cases (there are several pages of precedent cases quoted in the motion) it is clear that for you to be considered "acting in concert" with another member of the swarm you have to have actually exchanged parts of the file(s) in question with them. In this case there is zero proof that the Does "acted in concert" as the law requires.

    And anyway, the burden on the defense that any of these "joined" 'John Doe' copyright cases places on the defendants - in effect causing there to be a separate "mini-trial" within the overall trial for each separate defendant... To put it simply, there is no guarantee any of the Doe's in any of the cases will be using the same defense. This will place an (and this is a legal term) "unfair burden" on the defense if a given case remains joined.

    But thats besides the point. The "joined Doe Case" is used for an ex parte expedited discovery period so that the plaintiff can then attempt to gain an out of court settlement from the defendents. They then dismiss the "Joined" case and file separate actions against each of those defendants that refuse the settlement offer. And since it is not a "sure thing" they don't want to do that - because the only identity you can get by serving a subpoena on an ISP is that of the account holder - who cannot be proven to have been the actual "criminal" in the case. In fact, it could be a "Significant Other", child, relative, friend or even neighbor of the account holder. Hell, in the case that the account holder has either an unsecured network or one secured with an easily broken security system (such as WEP) the actual "criminal" in the case could have been a complete stranger sitting outside the account holders house in the dead of night.

    Because of the numerous possible defenses that can be argued by each individual defendant, separate cases should - technically *MUST* - be filed instead of a joined case like the one in question. These points are actually made in the motion and they make so much sense that I can see the case severed and the subpoena's on Does 2-5 quashed. (with any information gained via those now quashed subpoenas destroyed and made illegal to be acted upon)

    In case you have not read the motion, please do it before posting. Its shameful to not have all the facts available when you attempt to argue something.

  6. Why would you ask slashdot? by Xtifr · · Score: 5, Funny

    Gee, as soon as I finish getting my legal advice from Slashdot, maybe I'll head over to LawBlog to see if they can help me debug some of my Python code.... :)

    1. Re:Why would you ask slashdot? by TrekkieGod · · Score: 5, Informative

      Gee, as soon as I finish getting my legal advice from Slashdot, maybe I'll head over to LawBlog to see if they can help me debug some of my Python code.... :)

      The submitter is an actual lawyer (it's not just his username). I'd assume he has the legal aspect of this down. He's probably more interested in a technical discussion of what consists of interactions in BT swarms. Slashdot is actually a good place for that.

      --

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